Under row weed management

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Emilio Castelli
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Under row weed management

#1 Post by Emilio Castelli » April 11th, 2013, 2:30 pm

Keeping the weeds under control under the vines is by far my least enjoyable activity.
What is the best solution not involving poisons or lots of money?
Currently hand hoeing and weed whacking and getting sore and deaf.
Thanks for any suggestions.
E
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Bill Tex Landreth
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Under row weed management

#2 Post by Bill Tex Landreth » April 11th, 2013, 2:34 pm

Sheep?
It's not easy being drunk all the time. Everyone would be doing it if it were easy.

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casey louis
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Under row weed management

#3 Post by casey louis » April 11th, 2013, 4:51 pm

I have been using a weedbadger for the last ten years and loved it. They are well made and durable. Of course it does require a tractor and capable operator. Check them out at http://www.weedbadger.com/
Good luck and cheers!
Casey

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Hank Beckmeyer
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Under row weed management

#4 Post by Hank Beckmeyer » April 11th, 2013, 9:57 pm

Don't worry about it so much?
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casey louis
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Under row weed management

#5 Post by casey louis » April 12th, 2013, 11:51 am

Hank that is also good advice. Weeds are just plants we didn't plant. But if your soil is low in nutrients or if you need to warm the soil some light cultivation can really help the vines. In general though most of agriculture gets to uptight about weeds.

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Andrew Morris
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Under row weed management

#6 Post by Andrew Morris » April 12th, 2013, 12:18 pm

casey louis wrote:I have been using a weedbadger for the last ten years and loved it. They are well made and durable. Of course it does require a tractor and capable operator. Check them out at http://www.weedbadger.com/
Good luck and cheers!
Casey
Hey Casey,

A vineyard I am helping out with has one of these, but they did not install the right stakes for it to work right and not kill vines. If you have time to help me out, I'd really the chance to speak with someone who actually uses one of these and can help me get they system right. Shoot me a PM or email me if that works for you: Andrew@bricelandvineyards.com

Weed eating is cutting into the budget on this site and the owners need help with everything. [head-bang.gif]

It is a great site and if it can be run correctly, it could be a big help to Pinot production in our area.

Thanks!
Andrew Morris

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Under row weed management

#7 Post by Todd Hamina » April 12th, 2013, 3:25 pm

Once you hand hoe and get a good kill/knock down you can think about seeding Sub Clover. It goes dormant during sSummer months but if established early enough in the year can help out well. It does fix Nitrogen, but I don't know if that's a problem for you.
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Under row weed management

#8 Post by Stewart Johnson » April 13th, 2013, 8:13 am

casey louis wrote:I have been using a weedbadger for the last ten years and loved it. They are well made and durable. Of course it does require a tractor and capable operator. Check them out at http://www.weedbadger.com/
Good luck and cheers!
Casey
Is that working on a hillside? That seems to be a problem for a lot of the mechanical cultivators.
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casey louis
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Under row weed management

#9 Post by casey louis » April 13th, 2013, 8:55 am

We did have a fairly level vineyard, so I do not have experience with that. It depends on what you mean by hill. I've seen some vineyards on "hills" that would tip a tractor. But if the tractor will keep wheels on the ground the weedbadger should work. It is all adjustable by the operator, the depth of the tines can go up or down as quick as three point hitch moves. Their website has a lot of info on it check it out. Good Luck

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Under row weed management

#10 Post by Merrill Lindquist » April 13th, 2013, 10:42 am

I normally have a crew dig between the vines with a shovel. Not inexpensive, but I am opposed to using herbicides and have not done so for around 10 years.

This year we used an undervine cultivator - an attachment to the tractor. It was pretty horrifying to watch as the arm reached out to dig between the vines, then pulled back as it "sensed" it was about to hit the next vine. It certainly requires a very skilled operator, and there was a fair amount of adjusting going on to get it rolling.
It did not do a "complete" job, and I did have a crew follow up with shovels so that growth would be disked under with the freshly mowed cover crop. I do my best to get the nitrogen into the soil - I had quite a cover crop that was bell bean dominant in alternating rows.

I tried to get the name of the cultivator - it was something like Tarantula or something like that. It turned out to be a bit more expensive than just hand-digging, but it was accomplished much faster, and I was able to get the whole vineyard weeded, mowed/chopped, disked, and ring-rolled in one effort.

I should mention my vineyard is totally Valley floor, so no hills at all to deal with. Since I have "old-style" quadrilateral trellising, the cordons are not in alignment with the trunks - they project outward into the rows between the vines. So the operator had to be extra careful with that extra challenge - most the vines these days are trained vertically, so they were not so accustomed to that issue.
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Steve Gower
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Under row weed management

#11 Post by Steve Gower » April 13th, 2013, 11:04 am

Hi Emilio,
Last year, I flailed between rows, came back with a lawn mower to get closer to the vines, then weed wacked the 3" strip left behind. It still sucked but the lawn mower step was worth it to speed up the rest. I would be interested in a "co-op" weed badger machine if you think that would work.
Steve Gower - Crux Winery

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Under row weed management

#12 Post by Bill Gibbs » April 13th, 2013, 8:11 pm

Anyone familiar with the Clemens Radius SL or Radius X? German auto sensing tiller attachment for your tractor.

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Under row weed management

#13 Post by Dusty Timmons » April 15th, 2013, 4:02 pm

Clemens hoe is a pretty good piece of equipment. I have had problems with weed badgers in the past spreading crown gall (through trunk damage). Probably not operated correctly, I don't know for certain as I was just starting out at the time and I wasn't running the machine. Properly used there are several chemical options that work well and are low impact too.

My current method is just avoid rain...always. It works very well although it can be hard on your vines after a couple of years.

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Under row weed management

#14 Post by David M » April 16th, 2013, 8:14 am

Stewart Johnson wrote:
casey louis wrote:I have been using a weedbadger for the last ten years and loved it. They are well made and durable. Of course it does require a tractor and capable operator. Check them out at http://www.weedbadger.com/
Good luck and cheers!
Casey
Is that working on a hillside? That seems to be a problem for a lot of the mechanical cultivators.
Hi all, new here but thought I'd throw in my 2 cents on the subject. Our estate vineyard goes to over 30% slopes so we utilize two methods. In the winter our flock of sheep go to work, and during the growing season we use a Braun LUV. Any sort of mechanical in-row takes an experienced and very patient operator, but even on our steepest blocks the Braun works like a charm.

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Ryan Prichard
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Under row weed management

#15 Post by Ryan Prichard » April 16th, 2013, 2:49 pm

Anyone ever tried this?
http://www.flameengineering.com/GP_Flamers.html

I've used hand-held versions of this to some success but was curious if anyone has scaled up.
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Bill H o o p e r
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Under row weed management

#16 Post by Bill H o o p e r » April 17th, 2013, 6:34 am

Bill Gibbs wrote:Anyone familiar with the Clemens Radius SL or Radius X? German auto sensing tiller attachment for your tractor.
We use an older version (with blade and harrow). It works excellently as long as you keep your eyes on the beds. The best thing is that it can be used in combination with all of your plows, cultivators, seed throwers, mulchers, whatever -so bolt it on every time you drive through a row for any reason and fight weeds. They are not very expensive -silly not to have one!

Cheers,
Bill
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Under row weed management

#17 Post by Stewart Johnson » April 17th, 2013, 9:33 am

Ryan Prichard wrote:Anyone ever tried this?
http://www.flameengineering.com/GP_Flamers.html

I've used hand-held versions of this to some success but was curious if anyone has scaled up.
I have a couple of friends who have tried this on a pretty large scale and have abandoned it -- partly due to the expense of the propane consumed and partly due to burning down too many endposts. From what I've seen, this technique doesn't seem to touch weeds that put out ground hugging rosettes.
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casey louis
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Under row weed management

#18 Post by casey louis » April 18th, 2013, 8:01 am

Dusty Timmons wrote:Clemens hoe is a pretty good piece of equipment. I have had problems with weed badgers in the past spreading crown gall (through trunk damage). Probably not operated correctly, I don't know for certain as I was just starting out at the time and I wasn't running the machine. Properly used there are several chemical options that work well and are low impact too.

My current method is just avoid rain...always. It works very well although it can be hard on your vines after a couple of years.
How do you avoid rain? You must have some clout with the man up stairs. Anyways, the way I operated the weedbadger it never touched the trunks. I know they sell it with a sensor that does brush the vine but I just used the manual controller. If the sensor malfunctioned even once it means ripping out a vine. Which I did do once in the ten years of weedbadgering. That was a bad day.
Ryan Prichard wrote:Anyone ever tried this?
http://www.flameengineering.com/GP_Flamers.html

I've used hand-held versions of this to some success but was curious if anyone has scaled up.
I have used a large version of the flame weeder at an organic vegetable farm I managed. We would use it for stale seed bedding prior to planting spring mix and spinach. It only worked on small weeds, and any living roots in the soil like quack grass would wilt and come right back. So it has its uses but for a vineyard I think its pretty limited.

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#19 Post by Gary Schulte » April 20th, 2013, 4:20 pm

For vineyards more than hobby size the Braun LUV Perfekt and Clemens Radius XL are very similar "knife" cultivators that work well. Both offer tilt function for hillsides and 2-3 knife sizes depending on inter- and intra-row vine spacing.. The more hydraulic functions you add the more control valves you need and a no-pressure return to sump is required. At least one valve must have flow control. I have just priced both out as I will pull the trigger on one of these in the next 2 weeks. The Clemens is heavier built and offers multiple toolbar choices for 3 pt hitch mount. The Braun does have similar choices with slightly lighter construction and in my price checking it prices out at a significantly lower price. Both are being used out here in the east in sandy to rocky soils with good success. These knife systems are reported to do less soil structure damage. Key for success is to get to the weeds early when small....Gary

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Under row weed management

#20 Post by BrankoPjanic » January 5th, 2016, 11:42 am

Hi there,

what is your opinion about SPEDO in-row equipment? i like its versatility but i havent seen it working...

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#21 Post by Gary Schulte » January 10th, 2016, 6:56 am

SPEDO makes several different implements for in-row use and they look like other manufacturers implements. Which model are you referring to?

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#22 Post by BrankoPjanic » January 11th, 2016, 9:21 am

i m thinking about purchasing a Mercurio with different implements due to different soils we manage .. not sure about english translation.. in this link it would be implement No 2, 4 and 7 ... http://www.spedo.eu/pagine/vigneto_utensili.php

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#23 Post by Gary Schulte » January 11th, 2016, 2:46 pm

BrankoPjanic - The unit is a PTO tractor connection which then houses the hydraulics to drive the different implements. The implements look like the choices you get with Braun( http://www.vineyardmachines.com/index_f ... uv0001.pdf) and Clemens(http://www.clemens-america.com/index.EN ... ash=radius) except that they hook directly into your tractor hydraulics. My apologies on the links as one has to dig through their online links to find all of the options. Youtube has many videos of the configurations for the Braun LUV-Perfekt and the CLemens Radius. Gearmore and Rankin Equipment are listed as SPEDO representatives but I did not see info on their offerings. The variations for in-row cultivation all have a sensor rod that trips a hydraulic valve to retract. Those variations are slicing root blade, rotary cultivator, flail mower, cultivating blades, and others. I would check to see if anyone in your area is using any type of mechanical weeding device to get an idea what works in your soils and climate.

As an add when I went looking for the Pellenc Tournesol I came across the Vinetech Equipment website that showed the Pellenc discontinued and they are offering an ID David implement that preforms somewhat like the SPEDO. Here's the youtube link ..... .

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Under row weed management

#24 Post by BrankoPjanic » January 12th, 2016, 3:02 pm

thank you very much Gary! yes i am aware of other producers, especially Clemens but my main reasons why i m looking upon SPEDO are local availability and services (being in Mexico has its drawbacks), not such a bad price and multitasking..
that is why i m trying to figure out more about SPEDO..

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#25 Post by Gary Schulte » January 13th, 2016, 11:52 am

BrankoPjanic - I've looked through a couple online SPEDO resources and videos. Their equipment looks to be strongly made and probably on par with my Braun LUV-Perfekt. Note that in almost all cases, and with all manufacturers, one moves pretty slowly down the row with the weeder initially. After your break-in learning period and a few equipment adjustments you will get a feel for how fast you can travel for your soils and vine spacing.

Few things to consider.
(1) how is the sensitivity for the sensor wand adjusted and is there a secondary sensing when hitting larger underground obstruction(rocks)
(2) how does the trigger sensor valve work? Is there always flow trough the valve(like Braun) or only when sensor is triggered(like CLemens)?
(3) can you set the sensing bar forward if you want to play conservative?
(4) what is the recoil mechanism?....spring, hydraulics, both?
(5) does your vineyard have some side slope such that you need a tilt function?
(6) any hydraulic offset needed to go in and out of row ends(narrow rows)
(7) if you have close vine spacing make sure the weeder/cultivator attachment is small enough to give you good intravine coverage
(8) metal gauge wheels are good but how easy is it to set desired height when 3 pt hitch lift is down? Are there 1 or 2 gauge wheels?
(9) it looks like the Mercurio unit is pto over hydraulics just make sure the speed and teeth match to your tractor
(10) how is the hydraulic flow cooled in the unit cooled(large sump or radiative cooler)?
(11) unlikely there is a weight problem but double check the weight vs hydraulic lift specs
(12) any 12v connections needed like for a panic override button?
(13) will dealer have any spare parts on hand or can get them ASAP?

My apologies to throw so many things at you but just want to make sure these are covered as there is a learning curve to using these weeders. They work well when dialed in but there is a learning curve and patience required when first starting.
Last edited by Gary Schulte on January 14th, 2016, 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Under row weed management

#26 Post by BrankoPjanic » January 14th, 2016, 12:38 pm

yes, that was a BIG reply but i am very thankful for it Gary!
i ll pass through all of the point in order to understand and learn more for sure

have a good day

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#27 Post by Bill Gibbs » May 6th, 2018, 7:54 am

We just demoed a Caffini Acqua Knife (aka Weed Killer in Italy), a waterjet undervine device, not rock sensitive. We are looking forward to seeing the dual head front mount with a 3 Point tank. We have a lot of steeps. Supposedly the newer model has a lower profile head, fit better under irrigation lines. Not especially fast, but did a nice job.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7Kq2vA0xfmk

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#28 Post by Stewart Johnson » May 7th, 2018, 10:44 pm

Anybody tried Weed Slayer? It's a new organic herbicide. It's supposed to be systemic, like Roundup. It's about triple or quadruple the cost of Roundup, but it might be worthwhile if it works as well.
I've tried a few other organic sprays, and they maybe made the weeds a little sad, but nothing more. My general complaint with most alternatives to Roundup is that they require you to treat weeds very early to have any hope of success. That goes for flaming, spraying and cultivating. That's the opposite of what I think is desireable. I think that, however you eventually knock it down, a healthy stand of cover crop is the most important thing for soil health. So, I'm not comfortable with any means of control that doesn't allow for robust grass growth under the vine up until bud break. Plus, I'm not wild about cultivating soil on the sloped portion of terraces under the vines, as I don't see how that soil doesn't move downhill with repeated disturbance. So, I'm a Roundup user, at this point. I'm not uncomfortable with that, as the Roundup treated strips under the vines produce healthy grass growth every Winter/Spring, and I take that as evidence that the soil is in decent shape. Still, there are grape buyers for whom organic is important, and I'd like to find a Roundup stand-in for that reason.
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#29 Post by Gary Schulte » May 8th, 2018, 5:54 am

Bill - That is a pretty interesting weeder. It's hard to tell how well it works on a good stand of under trellis weeds. I gather that it's super high pressure tears the above ground blades/leaves off...correct? Here's a video that has the smaller heads shown.
[youtube]ikQOuEDXkXI[/youtube]

Stewart - That product has potential if it works well on established weeds. I've tried the old acid burn formulas in other applications and they just never last for me as well. Always expensive and not working. One point you make is very true. You have to be on top of weeds early and often at the start of the growing season if you do the cultivation route. At the moment I'm a little behind mine which I do not like. I'll have to see if Weed Slayer product is available in CT. I would be willing to do a sampling around my end posts for starters. Thanks for sharing.

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#30 Post by Bill Gibbs » May 8th, 2018, 8:11 am

The high pressure jets cut the weed stem below ground level.
Runs at 10,000 psi

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#31 Post by Gary Schulte » May 8th, 2018, 10:03 am

Bill - What's the water use rate?

Add - I'm assuming you can control the spring back rate? I saw a video, old bucket style Caffini, with narrow spaced vines and it seems that one needs to go slow to avoid whacking younger vines..

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#32 Post by Bill Gibbs » May 11th, 2018, 9:50 am

I don't have your answers. The Caffini needs to go slow in general, though not as so slow as the steam unit we saw at a local show.
Spring loaded arms are problematic in general as we switch from level to steep uphill, to steep downhill. Whacking small vines, as you say. We rent a Perfect Mower with side arms that suffers from these issues. They are going to demo a hydraulic unit for us in a few weeks. Our rows vary from 8' to 12' so adjustable width is nice if we are shooting for one pass.

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#33 Post by Gary Schulte » May 12th, 2018, 5:35 am

Bill - Would love to see a new sensor technology developed for these weeding units that can see the object and evaluate the terrain at the same time. Yesterday's afternoon weeding was strange as I had the unit jump into the irrigation wire and tubing and lacerate it in 2 sections. Part of that is how the sensor rod can move up on the object it is sensing. Lost one plant as well. This is rare but does happen and when it does I'm not happy. Will be interested to see how well your Caffini works. I'm impressed a unit can handle 8' to 12' rows.

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#34 Post by Gary Schulte » May 14th, 2018, 5:29 pm

Stewart - I have one of my distributors(Helena Chem) looking to see if Weed Slayer is registered in my region. My guess is that this formulation is too new for state review in my neck of the woods. In looking at it a bit more it appears to be a newer improved version of Burnout II which is a clove oil - citric acid - surfactant. I tried the pricey Burnout II many moons ago with very little effect on an established stand of weeds. One of the constituents in clove oil is eugenol which is the primary active ingredient in Weed Slayer and the molasses water mix must be the sticker/surfactant to keep it in place and active. If you try it let us know how it works.

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#35 Post by Stewart Johnson » May 16th, 2018, 9:32 pm

Gary Schulte wrote:Stewart - I have one of my distributors(Helena Chem) looking to see if Weed Slayer is registered in my region. My guess is that this formulation is too new for state review in my neck of the woods. In looking at it a bit more it appears to be a newer improved version of Burnout II which is a clove oil - citric acid - surfactant. I tried the pricey Burnout II many moons ago with very little effect on an established stand of weeds. One of the constituents in clove oil is eugenol which is the primary active ingredient in Weed Slayer and the molasses water mix must be the sticker/surfactant to keep it in place and active. If you try it let us know how it works.
Now that you mention it, I also vaguely remember trying Burnout years ago, with similar non-results. I haven't tried Weed Slayer. I was waiting on a friend who was going to try some on mature weeds. I specifically asked a rep about the Weed Slayer properties, and he said that it was systemic; i.e., kills the whole plant, like Roundup. I think Burnout was a contact/burndown product; i.e., only killed the tissue it touched. I may be wrong about that, or maybe they are materially different, or maybe this is another instance of an organic product promising way more than it can deliver.
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#36 Post by Gary Schulte » July 9th, 2018, 4:36 pm

With a full canopy one thing I would change would be to have the weeder up front where I can see it. At the moment narrow rows with canopy tends to fill my mirrors so I cannot see the weeder in action to make minor adjustments.

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