A couple of recent bad bottles from Frank Cornelissen, combined with similar experiences with bottles from a couple of other producers who don’t add any SO2, have me wondering about those large-production commercial brands of wines that are marketed as not having sulfites added. I haven’t tried many of those wines, but I assume they are more consistent and more durable (as far as storage conditions) than wines like Cornelissen’s. If that assumption is correct, can anyone tell me how that is possible? Is something other than SO2 added to preserve the wines? Is a regiment of reductive handling and sterile filtration just before bottling enough? What about the wines with “no detectable sulfites”? Is it the same in either case? Any input, factual or educated guesses, would be appreciated. Thanks.
What large production wines are you referring to?
Coturri?
Nothing
Doug,
Have you had any of the Coturri wines? I have found them to be a crap shoot - I’ve had beautiful bottles and then some that reminded me of a chamistry experiment gone bad.
But as to your question, there are sulfites on the grapes from the vineyard. As a for instance, my syrah this year after fermentation, had 13ppm free without any additions whatever.
Also, acidity can hold down populations of bad bugs; its not an environment they like.
Tannin can act as an anti-oxident, although to a much lesser degree than added sulfites.
I have spoken with some of the guys in this country and Europe that do not use sulfites or use very little (and then, mostly at bottling) and they seem to indicate that healthy fruit, in balance is essential to that method.
Personally, I add sulfites and try to maintain molecular sulpher at between .5 and .8, depending on the chemistry of the particular wine. And my experience with Coturri is one of the reasons I choose to do that.
Best, Jim
Refrigeration?
To the degree that the wines last, it due to the natural preservative power of yeast, co2, and tannin. Which explains why there are few that are good on consistent basis, IMO, anyway.
If someone is doing it year after year with both reds and whites I’d love to speak with them.
Velcorin, protos (sp? a new vegetable derived preservative approved for EU use), and dissolved co2 are the ones I can think of that can be added to aid in preservation.
Whta is velcorin and protos and how they are working?
FWIW, I have only heard of protos and what I have heard is not conclusive.
Velcorin, however, I know some about. It is a deadly poison that is injected into the wine at bottling in very particular and tightly controlled doses. It kills yeast and some bacteria on contact if the populations of those yeasts and bacteria are within certain limits. If they are over the limits, it kills some of them.
It then breaks apart into CO2 and methanol - methanol in amounts so small as to be insignificant according to the USDA. The break down takes a relatively small period of time but because it is so toxic in its original state, it is recommended that one not drinkthe wine for 24 hours.
Velcorin is used in virtually every fruit drink commercially available in the states and in some other food products, as well as wine. It does not have to be listed as an ingredient on the label.
I would say that it is not strictly a perservative but, with its use, the wine would be clean of most bad bugs and hence, survive longer in good shape.
Best, Jim
I have never used either but know there available. Talked to someone who tried Protos and was not that happy with it, though is was high pH/ETOH/VA Pinot Noir to start with so probably not the best trail.
Velcorin scares me I can’t believe they don’t have to list is as an ingredient. Really good lobbyist’s I guess. I know of some wineries who use it to keep unfiltered in their marketing. Juice companies usually flash pasteurize which if done right should be enough but they use it as a extra safe step. If everyone who shops at TJ’s, Whole Foods, etc. had a clue about this stuff they would no be buying “organic” juice. Take a look at the MSDS http://www.scottlab.com/uploads/documents/downloads/87/Velcorin%20MSDS%206-07.pdf
Joe,
Without attempting to advocate for or against Velcorin’s use, it should be noted that you can’t buy it but must hire a licensed operator who brings their state certified machine to the winery to dose the wine being bottled. In other words, you couldn’t touch it if you wanted to.
And certainly, anyone who uses it had best not be drinking the dosed wine right after bottling - although I have seen that done and the person that drank it did not get sick. I don’t know what this stuff’s “half-life” is but I’m betting it is very short.
Best, Jim
It’s half life is only about 15-30 minutes depending on temperature. The Velcorin machine operators are told not to drink the wines for four hours after bottling.
Velcorin wouldn’t have to be listed as an ingredient (ignoring that wine doesn’t have ingredient lists) because there isn’t any Velcorin present when the product is sold…so no labeling requirement (even if an ingredient list were added to wine labels). CO2 and methanol are produced…but both are produced by all fermentations (again, in incredibly tiny amounts in the case of methanol). Also, if someone where to consume enough methanol to be poisonous, the treatment is to consume ethanol…since ethanol blocks the absorption of methanol. So given that velcorin is used by a huge % of water/juice/etc sold today, the risk/issues appears to be lower for wine. I’m not arguing for/against Velcorin’s usage…just thought these were relevant factiods.
And the wines that contain proton, velcorin etc shall be labeled natural wines! I think something is wrong here. I wonder where winemaking is heading…
That is a very slippery slope and involves so much subjective analysis so as to be all but infinite.
Best, Jim
I spoke with a winemaker who made no-sulfite wine. He told me that he had taken the advice of French winemakers doing the same thing and had added a preservative that was a “tannin by-product” in order to get away from sulfites. Tannin itself would be an obvious add, but I’m not sure what this by-product would be.
Wow, I’m sorry I lost track of this for so long! I don’t usually check this forum and forgot I had posted this question. How about Our Daily Red and Frey? I’m sure there are others.
I have had some Coturri wines, and I agree. As much as I’ve liked some bottles, they’re not worth the risk for me to buy or sell. There are other producers such as Cornelissen about whom I feel the same way.
I understand what you’re saying about natrually occurring sulfites, but what about the wines like Our Daily Red (among others) with “no detectable sulfites”?
I should mention that all of the wines like this that I’ve seen are labeled “organic wine”. I don’t know what that does or does not allow in terms of additives (other than the weird rules about SO2 addition and use of sulfur products in the vineyard).