Brett detection tool?

N_Weis · March 13, 2009, 5:10pm

Interesting. Discuss.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Red-Wine-Spoilage-in-Barrels-bw-14618045.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not sure I’d be happy with this press release if I were the Snowdens.

Sarah_Warner · March 13, 2009, 5:12pm

Who’s Brett? And why is he in my wine?

Jim_Cowan · March 13, 2009, 5:25pm

Too bad they didn’t say how it works.
I’d love to see the specs on this item.
Best, Jim

N_Weis · March 13, 2009, 5:27pm

Yes. Immunoassay I understand. Biochip I’m a little unsure about.

Sarah - He is a strapping young 20-something. Let the prowling begin.

Jeff_Brinkman · March 13, 2009, 5:27pm

Jim, it’s basically an ELISA for brett. It could be a great thing if they work out the sensitivity, and ELISAs are used all over the place these days -
If you’re not familiar with ELISAs (typically pronounced ee-lies-ah)
ELISA - Wikipedia" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Jeff_Brinkman · March 13, 2009, 5:28pm

Biochip is just their term for the base of the ELISA well that contains the antibodies specific for whatever cell-surface antigens they are selecting for.

Josh_Beck · March 13, 2009, 5:30pm

http://www.z-wineco.com/moreinfo.php/products/Brett_Test_kit

“The assay sensitivity limit is roughly 50 cells/5 ul spot”

Sarah_Warner · March 13, 2009, 5:33pm

Nah, sounds like he tends to “bottle up” his emotions

I’m here all night folks

ToddFrench · March 13, 2009, 5:34pm

Linda_Baehr · March 13, 2009, 5:36pm

Ah yes, the lab on the chip. One of my Profs. was quoted for this article (although they misspelled her name). We were doing work with this company when I was in school. Drs. Rodrigues and Thornton isolated and purified some Brett antibodies while they were with Gallo, and I used these antibodies in my Brett research. This company has developed an detection lab-on-a-chip using the anitbodies. It was still in the development stage while I was in school, so I have never seen it in action and do not know how effective it is.

Terence_T-Bone_Livingston · March 14, 2009, 7:43am

More reason to invest in an Ozonator.

And that darn Brett…in detention…what a tool.

Thomas_Pellechia · March 14, 2009, 1:33pm

All I can say is that if this analytical stuff keeps up, there won’t be a bad wine around to criticize.

Wait a minute: that might be a good thing. But it will cause a mountain of writers to hit the unemployment offices across the nation…and what about wine forum sites?

[stop.gif] It’s too much to imagine.

David_Vergari · March 14, 2009, 3:18pm

Thomas,

I was visiting the unemployment office the other day (I heard the coffee was really good and didn’t cost anything! Honest, that’s da truth [rolleyes.gif] ) and saw three wine writers in line. All were wearing disguises, but I saw through 'em. I guess the economy’s thinning their ranks as well.

Really, I don’t envision a future devoid of these folks. True, some will fall by the wayside, but there’s always new aspirants who think they are the smartest folks in the room in terms of wine. Is there any way to sell tickets to this gig?

Jim_Cowan · March 14, 2009, 4:45pm

Jeff,
I am not a tech guy but it appears that this measures brett in solution - is that right? If so, I believe that ETS now offers a Scorpion test which samples down to the molecular level and can detect brett in solution.
What would be wonderful is if they could make one that could measure it in the barrel itself.
Best, Jim

N_Weis · March 14, 2009, 8:55pm

Jim-

The Scorpion test is done via PCR amplification of DNA in solution.

An immunoassay based on the antigen-antibody relationship (as I understand this to be) is different.

More accurate or effective? I don’t really know. They both have their limitations and drawbacks I bet (I know the Scorpion does), but I’m no molecular biology expert, so I can’t really say. They might find a nice little niche for this product if it is significantly cheaper and simple enough that wineries could do it themselves.

Thomas_Pellechia · March 14, 2009, 9:20pm

So, Nate, how do you test for Brett? Or do you?

How do any others on this bb test for Brett?

Have you a threshold? Can there be a threshold?

I’m serious with these questions.

Also, what can be done if you test and don’t like what you have? What’s the clean up for Brett?

N_Weis · March 14, 2009, 10:20pm

Well, a logical protocol for me is many-fold.

First, you should inherently know which of your wines are at greatest risk. Red, in the oldest barrels, higher pH, a bit of RS, and so on. You should certainly be cognizant that these are more likely to develop problems and act accordingly.

Second, tasting your wines often and knowing where they’ve been and where they’re headed helps.

Third, testing: I didn’t mean to imply that the Scorpion was not a useful tool. Quite the contrary. It does have limitations, though, as does all analysis. A well-rounded analysis program (for Brett specifically) would incorporate it, scope work, & 4EP/4EG’s. I tend to look at Scorpions on an order of magnitude basis and over time. Is 500 cells/mL a disaster? In my opinion, no. If it was 20 cells/mL 3 weeks earlier, my eyebrows would perk a bit. 50,000 cells/mL should get you looking at your options. 5,000,000 cells means you probably already missed the boat. The interesting thing about Scorpions, to me, is not the Brett (or Lactobacillus), as I really haven’t seen much of it. It’s the other stuff - Pediococcus & Zygo. They show up pretty regularly…I kind of wonder if it’s an ignorance is bliss situation and they’ve always been around, but just weren’t ID’ed (although Pedio has a distinctive look under a scope, it could be confused for Oenococcus pretty easily, ditto Zygo and Sacharomyces). I’ve see them at pretty high populations, but they don’t seem to do much? Makes me wonder if the Scorpion is picking up some very similar DNA fragments from other organsisms?

Once you know you have a Brett problem, is the Brett producing noticeable aromas, and are they 100% negative?

Finally, addressing the problem: Depends on the level and the derivative (growing or dying?). Some might be tempted to bump SO2, but I kind of wonder often if, once you have the population, you’re not just selecting for the more SO2-resistant org’s in the population. These days, there are a lot of options to deal with it: filtration, Velcorin, 4EP/4EG removal via RO and so on. Do you do it at racking, wait till bottling, strap on a pair and go unfiltered? Depends on you and the severity.

Obviously, barrel management is key, especially as empties. Once you get a really bad problem, as a few wineries in Napa have, short of burning down your cellar, it’s a lot of work. I have to think that these days, though, not developing such a problem in the first place is much easier.

I know one guy who controlled it in an obviously infested cellar really well by acidifying the bejesus out of his wines and storing them at 0.8 - 1.0 molecular and then deacidifying prior to bottling. Extreme, but it helped him ultimately get it under control to the point that he doesn’t have to do that anymore.

So, I don’t have a specific threshold, but its on a case by case basis. Since moving into winery management circa 2005, I really haven’t encountered a whole lot. That said, one wine I helped make in 2005 was clean (Scorpion included) its whole life and was thus bottled unfiltered; it has since developed a bloom in bottle. Hence my comments about the limitations of Scorpions. I have seen other cases of this, too, most notably from Scott Labs themselves, who were doing an experiment on the sensory effects of Velcorin vs control vs crossflow. Unfortunately, their unfiltered control developed a very severe bloom in bottle (and had been clean its entire life) so the experiment was for naught.

It’s out there. Unfortunately, there appears to be no such thing as an entirely clean slate for bottling unfiltered. But it can be done, and often is done very successfully, including by people with whom I have worked. It’s difficult to understand why it works in some cases when a wine is “clean” but not in others when wine is “clean”. Very intricate variables, probably.

Thomas_Pellechia · March 15, 2009, 12:08am

Whew!

Thanks, Nate. I was hoping for details and I got 'em.

Sometimes I’m so glad to be a writer and not a winemaker…until I look at my revenue

Anonymous · March 15, 2009, 12:19am

Nate Weis:

Well, a logical protocol for me is many-fold.

First, you should inherently know which of your wines are at greatest risk. Red, in the oldest barrels, higher pH, a bit of RS, and so on. You should certainly be cognizant that these are more likely to develop problems and act accordingly.

Second, tasting your wines often and knowing where they’ve been and where they’re headed helps.

Third, testing: I didn’t mean to imply that the Scorpion was not a useful tool. Quite the contrary. It does have limitations, though, as does all analysis. A well-rounded analysis program (for Brett specifically) would incorporate it, scope work, & 4EP/4EG’s. I tend to look at Scorpions on an order of magnitude basis and over time. Is 500 cells/mL a disaster? In my opinion, no. If it was 20 cells/mL 3 weeks earlier, my eyebrows would perk a bit. 50,000 cells/mL should get you looking at your options. 5,000,000 cells means you probably already missed the boat. The interesting thing about Scorpions, to me, is not the Brett (or Lactobacillus), as I really haven’t seen much of it. It’s the other stuff - Pediococcus & Zygo. They show up pretty regularly…I kind of wonder if it’s an ignorance is bliss situation and they’ve always been around, but just weren’t ID’ed (although Pedio has a distinctive look under a scope, it could be confused for Oenococcus pretty easily, ditto Zygo and Sacharomyces). I’ve see them at pretty high populations, but they don’t seem to do much? Makes me wonder if the Scorpion is picking up some very similar DNA fragments from other organsisms?

Once you know you have a Brett problem, is the Brett producing noticeable aromas, and are they 100% negative?

Finally, addressing the problem: Depends on the level and the derivative (growing or dying?). Some might be tempted to bump SO2, but I kind of wonder often if, once you have the population, you’re not just selecting for the more SO2-resistant org’s in the population. These days, there are a lot of options to deal with it: filtration, Velcorin, 4EP/4EG removal via RO and so on. Do you do it at racking, wait till bottling, strap on a pair and go unfiltered? Depends on you and the severity.

Obviously, barrel management is key, especially as empties. Once you get a really bad problem, as a few wineries in Napa have, short of burning down your cellar, it’s a lot of work. I have to think that these days, though, not developing such a problem in the first place is much easier.

I know one guy who controlled it in an obviously infested cellar really well by acidifying the bejesus out of his wines and storing them at 0.8 - 1.0 molecular and then deacidifying prior to bottling. Extreme, but it helped him ultimately get it under control to the point that he doesn’t have to do that anymore.

So, I don’t have a specific threshold, but its on a case by case basis. Since moving into winery management circa 2005, I really haven’t encountered a whole lot. That said, one wine I helped make in 2005 was clean (Scorpion included) its whole life and was thus bottled unfiltered; it has since developed a bloom in bottle. Hence my comments about the limitations of Scorpions. I have seen other cases of this, too, most notably from Scott Labs themselves, who were doing an experiment on the sensory effects of Velcorin vs control vs crossflow. Unfortunately, their unfiltered control developed a very severe bloom in bottle (and had been clean its entire life) so the experiment was for naught.

It’s out there. Unfortunately, there appears to be no such thing as an entirely clean slate for bottling unfiltered. But it can be done, and often is done very successfully, including by people with whom I have worked. It’s difficult to understand why it works in some cases when a wine is “clean” but not in others when wine is “clean”. Very intricate variables, probably.

One of the best posts on this subject I’ve ever read!

TTT

N_Weis · March 15, 2009, 1:04am

Sometimes I’m so glad to be a writer and not a winemaker…until I look at my revenue >

Yeah…everyone’s dying to be a winery for their revenues right now Sutter Home, maybe. I bet they’re ringing the bell!

One of the best posts on this subject I’ve ever read! > > > > >

TTT

Thanks, Paul. Wish I didn’t have to think about this subject so much…