Green harvest - and the bizarre world of dropping fruit.

I want to pre-face this by saying I’m not a farmer at all and know very little about farming practices. This is more of an attempt at an intellectual or philosophical discussion.

I was listening to a few of Levi Dalton’s podcasts with the Italian winemakers, both Gaja and Lorenzo Accomasso. They mentioned how in the old times the vines and their fruit were considered gifts from god, and to cut that fruit off and just dump it, would be not only be a sin, but complete heresy. So they did it in secrecy - Lorenzo mentioned how he collected the cut off fruit, smuggled it away and dumped it somewhere where nobody in the village would find out.

Today, this practice is commonplace and almost all vineyards do it. I can’t tell you how much fruit dropped in the rows I’ve had to step on in just my short 3 harvests. And as I was listening to this, I couldn’t help but think, perhaps the old timers are actually right? It is slightly mad.

Firstly, let’s look at it from an evolutionary standpoint: if the vine finds enough sunshine, enough water, and enough nutrients that year, it will produce more fruit. There’s this notion that if they produce more fruit, each bundle must be somehow less concentrated. But is that really the case? Isn’t it a bit like economic theory - in a rising sea, don’t all boats rise? Haven’t we proven that if someone creates value, it doesn’t mean someone else had to lose value? If it’s a good year the vine can sustain more crop without degrading the quality. Think about it - it doesn’t make sense that the vine would overcrop itself and have lesser sweet or concentrated fruit, because that would result in birds not eating them it and the vine not propagating. Obviously, from the vines standpoint, each cluster must be as enticing as the other for successful propagation.

Secondly, this approach was made in a time in Europe when weather patterns were different than today. It was colder, more rain, more lost harvests. Lorenzo mentioned that 3-4 out of 10 vintages were bad in those days. Since the late 90’s, he said there hasn’t been a single truly bad one. With global warming (or whatever theory we subscribe to), the crops are much more ripe and consistent. And here in California, where we’ve never struggled to get ripeness, why was this practice adopted? Our problem here is not ripeness, it’s actually over-ripeness and low acid levels. So why was this European practice adopted here?

Thirdly, isn’t the pruning of the vines the pre-crop reduction already? Left to it’s own devices, the vine would produce endless canes, all carrying shoots of fruit. Which tells me it has much more capacity to sustain fruit than we give it credit for.

Sustainably, I just think that if we can produce good wine from vines that some years crop heavily (as they have done for centuries before us), then it’s our moral obligation to do so, no? It makes no sense to be organic, biodynamic, sustainable and go through all that earth friendly stuff, only to then cut half of the crop and dump it on the ground. That’s not sustainability in my book. We talk about expression of the vine, the soil and all that winemaker BS talk. Guess what, however many ripe clusters it produces, that is the expression of the vine.

I think this year, I’ll have my growers not drop any fruit on my blocks. It’s just wrong. But I’m happy to be convinced otherwise.

Good luck with that Adam! I would say many modern winemakers do take crop reduction too far. When PROPERLY pruned old vines set a crop, I like to think they have enough ‘sense’ to produce what they can manage. Vines under 10 years old quite often need some counseling. They think they’re stronger than they really are (kind of like teenagers). How often have you worked with a young person who didn’t know how to pace themselves?
On the other hand numerous vintages that I have taken part in have made stellar wines from big crop years. But…everything has to line up just right (no heat spikes, early rains etc) for it to happen. Large crops are also helpful for us in California when growing sparkling fruit where more hang time is needed. If we get severe heat in late August, like most years, a fuller crop won’t zoom to high sugars as fast as a lighter crop will.
And…this craze of thinning back to a single cluster per shoot not only costs $$$ but makes the fruit vulnerable to those hot weather events. I see severe thinning necessary in sites like Alder Springs vineyard in Laytonville where Stuart Bewley (who has deep pockets) is growing varieties on the viticultural edge.

Thank you Casey for a growers perspective. I can see good points in your view on young vines - makes sense!

Not exactly the same but there was some research done in Virginia on different trellis methods using different split canopy methods and compared to VSP. Results were that in our east coast climate were vigor can be a challenge, it is possible to increase both quantity and quality. I don’t recall the specifics but might still have a copy in my files if not on-line if interested.

I’m generally in agreement. The bigger yield years have been the best quality years for me. I’ll take the hang-time and steadier ripening over any concentration I might gain from a light crop that has to come off in the first week of September. The exception is where the bunches start to crowd each other, and there I’ve stepped in to thin. As Casey said, that was mainly in my vineyard’s youth.

It’s a question of guessing the balance. In my neighborhood a cool year won’t get a crop ripe enough to make something interesting, conversely a low cropped warm year gets sugar ripe too quick to be be interesting (to me).

I like to go to two clusters per shoot early, and then wait to see if I need another pass.

Interesting subject. From my experience with relatively young vines covering 3 white varieties and 3 red varieties I agree with the point that the pruning stage is the evaluation point on trunk and cane sizes to decide fruit load. I must also add that I do single and double Guyot cane pruning each year so I do not have cordon-spur setup. The only fruit we drop is from clearly under ripe grapes after veraison or diseased bunches and with that there are not many bunches removed. Our fruit load is on the order of 2-3 tons/acre. That said most other wineries in my area have 2 fruiting wires and do 4 lay down canes per plant and in general have good tasting fruit at 4-6 tons/acre. I should also add that their grapes ripen 1-2 weeks later than ours and do suffer a bit more on late season diseases. For what its worth birds get interested in fruit with sugar levels at 16 brix on whites. The raccoons follow the bird’s lead and become interested at the same time. Birds peck(read disease ready) and the raccoons gobble(read clean heavy losses).

Also keep in mind the vines are on a 2 year cycle. 2022’s fruit clusters will be formed in buds this year. The vines are making long-term decisions.

I agree a lot of common practices were developed to address specific issues in a European region, and don’t necessarily translate here. But, in Europe there are all sorts of training methods tailored to specific challenges. Something used to in a cool region to improve ripening and attain more even ripening (where it’s a real problem that less ripe clusters can be far too green) don’t really translate to California.

We are seeing more people reexamine and improve their practices, instead of following some generic advice. Customizing training to the needs of a specific variety/clone at a specific site. Expanding the range of ripeness of fruit to increase complexity, red/purple/black, while avoiding green and raisin, or whatever range is desirable.

It does seem the routine dropping of fruit is most often a sign of something less than ideal. It could be a cynical business decision or could be a lack of knowledge, attention and skill.

I agree with the overall sentiment, but I question the sustainability point. Why is it unsustainable to drop fruit? Especially in a California wine industry that has seen some significant gluts in recent years. If that fruit returns its organic matter and nutrients to the soil, either locally where dropped in place, or elsewhere where composted, I think it’s fine from a sustainability standpoint. I bring this up entirely aside from questions about quality and vine health.

The only fruit I drop is fruit that is still pink and green when most other clusters have finished veraison. My aim is, I assume like everyone else’s, to bring all fruit to the same degree of “ripeness” at the same time.

Question: how many tons per acre are we talking about at pick time?

My neighborhood: 2.5 tpa is average.

3-5 tons per acre Cabernet Sauvignon.

Re: evolution and natural selection, it helps to remember what the vine is trying to do. It is trying to make fruit that will attract birds, who will eat the grapes, spread the seeds and make new vines. Fruit good enough to attract birds doesn’t necessarily have qualities to make the best wine because that is the winemaker’s goal - not the vine’s.

I’d be interested to know what Beckstoffer Vineyards does in terms of dropping fruit?

I think the concern with uniform ripening is more pronounced for cabernet growers than with other varieties. There may be something more like an optimal point of ripeness in cab – at least that was my impression from one crush with a cab producer. With pinot, syrah and viognier, I want the qualities that come from a number of different points along the ripening continuum. So, I’m not inclined to drop fruit for the sake of uniformity. If I have vine that’s really struggling and lagging everything else at the end of veraison, I will take that as a sign that it’s overloaded and drop a portion of its bunches. I guess that’s sort of the same thing as trying to even up ripening, though that’s not my primary intent.

Isn’t the classic accumulated knowledge that Cab shows “green” aromas when picked too early? Taken together with the whole Napa-style of winemaking and more superextraction, I think there has been perhaps an exaggerated skew towards ripeness in this particular variety. Not sure it’s entirely warranted, but then again, I don’t make 11.5% Cab’s (although it does sound interesting!) and so do very few others, so perhaps there’s something there?

As you mentioned Stewart, Syrah is a good example of a grape that can be picked at almost any sugar level and transform itself into interesting wines: they do well lean, they do well big and everywhere in between.

But ultimately, isn’t ripeness just a scale? I feel we sometimes put too much into that word, as if a grape has to turn a corner into ripeness, and from there on is where the stylistic choices can start. But they can start much earlier than that if you want to and the obvious example is Champagne - a wine we pick from grapes that are by all accounts under-ripe. Nevertheless, we can enjoy them, find interesting aromas and talk about flavor in them, so it seems ripeness it’s not a pre-requisite for making interesting or aromatic wines (at least from certain grapes).

I take issue with your broad-brushed assertion that there is “a whole Napa-style of winemaking and more super-extraction…” And your argument regarding ripeness is the reason I originally put “ripeness” in quotation marks, looking to call attention to the fact that I, for one, do not believe there is an absolute in the range of “ripe” or “ripeness.”

I’ve always liked the idea of a broad spectrum of flavors while deciding on harvest decisions. I started making Zinfandel and some red, ripe and raisin flavors made for a more interesting wine. I’ve been been part of Petite Sirah wines that only got to .22 brix that were pretty cool wines. I will say that Cabernet picked less ripe often has that green veggie character that is not very attractive. That seems why all the over-the-top Can folks…not Merrill always er to the side of overripe. Making no judgement just an opinion.

A big factor with Cab is sunlight on the grapes. Open up the canopy to the optimal level and you can pick earlier without the green.

Of course, past green is herbal. I had one Napa Cab producer candidly describe ripening the crap out of his Cab because he detests what I consider the grape’s varietal character. His other reds were less ripe.

A lot of the aromatics I love in wines are volatile, produced to attract birds to vines hidden in the forest. They dissipate with hang time and as a factor of time and heat in fermentation. So, they’re at their peak early in ripeness. With many varieties, having everything picked that early makes a beautifully aromatic wine that is punishing on the palate. But, having enough of that in the blend, maybe 5 or 10%, can produce amazing results. Range of ripeness, field blend, winery blend… (That’s where I think Touriga Nacional could be helpful in places like California and Bordeaux. Wonderful aromatics, acid and tannin at, say, 22 brix, in a way to nicely balance out and center riper components that need a little help.)

I used to make Melon de Bourgogne and the brix would range from 17-30 on the same plant.

There are many ways to skin a cat.