Ever Have To File A Complaint About Another Winery?

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Victor Hong
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Re: Ever Have To File A Complaint About Another Winery?

#51 Post by Victor Hong » August 3rd, 2020, 8:51 am

Victor Hong wrote:
August 3rd, 2020, 8:12 am
timmy roos wrote:
August 3rd, 2020, 5:28 am
I don’t think i would report anything to authorities. If I knew the egregious party well enough I would talk to them
In person, so that nothing possibly leaks to authorities? The more egregious the party, the more private the discussion?

Do you apply this duty-of-care standard to just winemakers? How about doctors, pilots, and bus drivers?

timmy roos wrote:
August 3rd, 2020, 8:23 am
Yes
Interesting. Should Larry and the other winemaker wear a mask, when chatting discreetly?
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Re: Ever Have To File A Complaint About Another Winery?

#52 Post by larry schaffer » August 3rd, 2020, 8:57 am

Victor,

But that's the 'catch 22' - the winery owner does not ever wear a mask [snort.gif]

As I said above, I was just curious what others would do in a similar situation. It sucks that any business has to be concerned about any of the other businesses in their area, and this has zero to do with 'competition' whatsoever. I do not wish any business ill will, but I also can't stand by silently if a business is going to put my business at risk and after I have spoken to them directly. And as I said above, this is not about ignorance - it is about arrogance.

Cheers.
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Re: Ever Have To File A Complaint About Another Winery?

#53 Post by Victor Hong » August 3rd, 2020, 9:07 am

larry schaffer wrote:
August 3rd, 2020, 8:57 am
Victor,

But that's the 'catch 22' - the winery owner does not ever wear a mask [snort.gif]

As I said above, I was just curious what others would do in a similar situation. It sucks that any business has to be concerned about any of the other businesses in their area, and this has zero to do with 'competition' whatsoever. I do not wish any business ill will, but I also can't stand by silently if a business is going to put my business at risk and after I have spoken to them directly. And as I said above, this is not about ignorance - it is about arrogance.

Cheers.
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Re: Ever Have To File A Complaint About Another Winery?

#54 Post by timmy roos » August 3rd, 2020, 9:09 am

I respect that Larry. You certainly are put in a bad situation.
Victor i read your posts here and you are a vital part of these forums however I don’t personally know you and thus don’t and won’t interfere in your decisions. No judgement either
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Re: Ever Have To File A Complaint About Another Winery?

#55 Post by BobMilton » August 3rd, 2020, 11:06 am

I am not in the business, but have been a frequent visitor to wineries and tasting rooms. My wife is a lung transplant recipient who is at extreme risk from Covid-19. I consider people who do not wear masks as an extreme threat to her health. I would report this winery (and hope the authorities come down hard on them)

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Re: Ever Have To File A Complaint About Another Winery?

#56 Post by Mark Golodetz » August 3rd, 2020, 11:31 am

Merrill Lindquist wrote:
August 2nd, 2020, 2:00 pm
I believe that relationships within the community (winemaking) are important. Whether some one is wearing a mask or not at another winery, I would not consider my business.
I have absolutely zero tolerance for anybody deliberately not wearing a mask. It is stupid, selfish, and puts lives in danger. This is not just some voluntary action that affects the people doing it, but something that can easily affect others who have not had any say in whether or not some crazy winery flouts the law and refuses to enforce mask wearing.

As for keeping good relationships, I really don’t give a damn. They are acting in a way that impacts your community, and puts lives in danger. What is the point of quarantining if a few assholes decide to spread the disease either through some deranged political ideology, selfishness, or being too f*ck stupid to do the right thing?
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Re: Ever Have To File A Complaint About Another Winery?

#57 Post by ToddHansen » August 3rd, 2020, 11:58 am

Like Andy, I'm in Oregon. I would be loathe to call official authorities and would prefer to work within the community. If I felt something was seriously jeopardizing the industry, the AVA association would be my first stop. Next I would enlist other wineries to talk with them and to help drive home the point you are making - that we are all hurt if one of us fails to follow protocols. Calling authorities could get ugly ... the press might learn about it and paint all wineries with the same brush, etc., damaging the reputation of the region and industry.
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Re: Ever Have To File A Complaint About Another Winery?

#58 Post by Victor Hong » August 3rd, 2020, 12:08 pm

ToddHansen wrote:
August 3rd, 2020, 11:58 am
Like Andy, I'm in Oregon. I would be loathe to call official authorities and would prefer to work within the community. If I felt something was seriously jeopardizing the industry, the AVA association would be my first stop. Next I would enlist other wineries to talk with them and to help drive home the point you are making - that we are all hurt if one of us fails to follow protocols. Calling authorities could get ugly ... the press might learn about it and paint all wineries with the same brush, etc., damaging the reputation of the region and industry.
The virus could do exactly that also----but far faster and fatally. Out of the wok, and into the fire....

So, bad publicity, as a possible but unlikely by-product to protect innocent people about the truth, would be far preferable, in my uninformed, noodle-slinging opinion. Nobody ever died from an infection of bad publicity.

Moreover, to stop bad publicity, simply stop the bad underlying behavior. Solve the cause, not the symptom.
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Re: Ever Have To File A Complaint About Another Winery?

#59 Post by larry schaffer » August 3rd, 2020, 1:10 pm

Todd,

I am not one to do something to 'harm' anyone that is part of my industry. This winery is not part of our Vintner's Association, complicating matters a bit more. And should the press learn about this, they will find that nearly every other winery in the same vicinity are bending over backwards to follow the regulations as required. It would make them look even worse . . .

Cheers!
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Re: Ever Have To File A Complaint About Another Winery?

#60 Post by Victor Hong » August 3rd, 2020, 4:22 pm

Take pictures.
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Re: Ever Have To File A Complaint About Another Winery?

#61 Post by Stephen Pepe » August 4th, 2020, 10:25 am

Larry. Be patient-Darwin will solve the problem.
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Re: Ever Have To File A Complaint About Another Winery?

#62 Post by Corey N. » August 4th, 2020, 10:50 am

Larry, your initial post suggested that you've already tried to politely inform the winery that they are not following the law and they rebuffed your efforts. There's no reason to pussyfoot around. They shouldn't have broken the law in the first place and you've already put them on notice. I think that you've already behaved reasonably by giving them a warning and if they end up getting their hand slapped, the responsibility lies with them and not with you.

That said, people who engage in reckless behavior have a funny way of blaming others for problems of their own making. I'd report anonymously if that's an option, but I would still prepare for blowback.
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Re: Ever Have To File A Complaint About Another Winery?

#63 Post by David K o l i n » August 4th, 2020, 11:05 am

Corey N. wrote:
August 4th, 2020, 10:50 am
Larry, your initial post suggested that you've already tried to politely inform the winery that they are not following the law and they rebuffed your efforts. There's no reason to pussyfoot around. They shouldn't have broken the law in the first place and you've already put them on notice. I think that you've already behaved reasonably by giving them a warning and if they end up getting their hand slapped, the responsibility lies with them and not with you.

That said, people who engage in reckless behavior have a funny way of blaming others for problems of their own making. I'd report anonymously if that's an option, but I would still prepare for blowback.
Weird. I agree with Corey.

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Re: Ever Have To File A Complaint About Another Winery?

#64 Post by Victor Hong » August 4th, 2020, 11:06 am

Stephen Pepe wrote:
August 4th, 2020, 10:25 am
Larry. Be patient-Darwin will solve the problem.
Not if the "egregious party" whom one poster defended has already spawned surviving DNA .
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Re: Ever Have To File A Complaint About Another Winery?

#65 Post by Victor Hong » August 4th, 2020, 11:07 am

David K o l i n wrote:
August 4th, 2020, 11:05 am
Corey N. wrote:
August 4th, 2020, 10:50 am
Larry, your initial post suggested that you've already tried to politely inform the winery that they are not following the law and they rebuffed your efforts. There's no reason to pussyfoot around. They shouldn't have broken the law in the first place and you've already put them on notice. I think that you've already behaved reasonably by giving them a warning and if they end up getting their hand slapped, the responsibility lies with them and not with you.

That said, people who engage in reckless behavior have a funny way of blaming others for problems of their own making. I'd report anonymously if that's an option, but I would still prepare for blowback.
Weird. I agree with Corey.
What is weird? That you agree with Corey? I thought that all your lawyers think alike! [snort.gif]
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Re: Ever Have To File A Complaint About Another Winery?

#66 Post by David K o l i n » August 4th, 2020, 11:11 am

Victor Hong wrote:
August 4th, 2020, 11:07 am
David K o l i n wrote:
August 4th, 2020, 11:05 am
Corey N. wrote:
August 4th, 2020, 10:50 am
Larry, your initial post suggested that you've already tried to politely inform the winery that they are not following the law and they rebuffed your efforts. There's no reason to pussyfoot around. They shouldn't have broken the law in the first place and you've already put them on notice. I think that you've already behaved reasonably by giving them a warning and if they end up getting their hand slapped, the responsibility lies with them and not with you.

That said, people who engage in reckless behavior have a funny way of blaming others for problems of their own making. I'd report anonymously if that's an option, but I would still prepare for blowback.
Weird. I agree with Corey.
What is weird? That you agree with Corey? I thought that all your lawyers think alike! [snort.gif]
Yup. That’s why only one side shows up in court

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Re: Ever Have To File A Complaint About Another Winery?

#67 Post by Corey N. » August 4th, 2020, 11:16 am

David K o l i n wrote:
August 4th, 2020, 11:11 am
Victor Hong wrote:
August 4th, 2020, 11:07 am
David K o l i n wrote:
August 4th, 2020, 11:05 am


Weird. I agree with Corey.
What is weird? That you agree with Corey? I thought that all your lawyers think alike! [snort.gif]
Yup. That’s why only one side shows up in court
If we both show up we can both bill.
I'm with Corey on this. - Todd W.

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Re: Ever Have To File A Complaint About Another Winery?

#68 Post by Victor Hong » August 4th, 2020, 11:24 am

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/04/fash ... aders.html

This article illustrates a somewhat analogous dilemma.
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Re: Ever Have To File A Complaint About Another Winery?

#69 Post by Marc Hauser » August 6th, 2020, 9:17 pm

Post it on Nextdoor and also claim they’re building 5G towers in the tasting room. The mob will take it from there....
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Re: Ever Have To File A Complaint About Another Winery?

#70 Post by Steve L Gellman » August 6th, 2020, 9:50 pm

Marc Hauser wrote:
August 6th, 2020, 9:17 pm
Post it on Nextdoor and also claim they’re building 5G towers in the tasting room. The mob will take it from there....
[rofl.gif]

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Re: Ever Have To File A Complaint About Another Winery?

#71 Post by Victor Hong » August 7th, 2020, 6:18 am

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/06/opin ... death.html

Irrelevant to this thread. Completely irrelevant.
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Re: Ever Have To File A Complaint About Another Winery?

#72 Post by Victor Hong » August 18th, 2020, 2:02 pm

larry schaffer wrote:
August 2nd, 2020, 12:59 pm
I know this is a strange question - and yep, I know some hate the idea of 'snitches' - but what if you verbally communicate with another winery about following regulations and they continue to disregard them, perhaps putting your own business at risk?

Cheers.
Update?
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Re: Ever Have To File A Complaint About Another Winery?

#73 Post by Bill Tex Landreth » August 18th, 2020, 2:59 pm

Was it Todd or Fu that deleted my post, and why?

Does being a Berserker Business paying member grant special privileges?
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Re: Ever Have To File A Complaint About Another Winery?

#74 Post by Bdklein » August 18th, 2020, 5:12 pm

Bill Tex Landreth wrote:
August 18th, 2020, 2:59 pm
Was it Todd or Fu that deleted my post, and why?

Does being a Berserker Business paying member grant special privileges?
Which post ?
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Re: Ever Have To File A Complaint About Another Winery?

#75 Post by David K o l i n » August 18th, 2020, 5:24 pm

Bdklein wrote:
August 18th, 2020, 5:12 pm
Bill Tex Landreth wrote:
August 18th, 2020, 2:59 pm
Was it Todd or Fu that deleted my post, and why?

Does being a Berserker Business paying member grant special privileges?
Which post ?
The deleted one?

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Re: Ever Have To File A Complaint About Another Winery?

#76 Post by Victor Hong » September 1st, 2020, 10:00 am

larry schaffer wrote:
August 2nd, 2020, 12:59 pm
I know this is a strange question - and yep, I know some hate the idea of 'snitches' - but what if you verbally communicate with another winery about following regulations and they continue to disregard them, perhaps putting your own business at risk?

Cheers.
Any change there for greater prudence?
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Re: Ever Have To File A Complaint About Another Winery?

#77 Post by Kim Z » September 12th, 2020, 1:13 pm

[/quote]

- safety: literally, this winery has decided the safety of their team and guests - who may go visit other wineries in a given area - is not a priority and they can be spreading infections due to this carelessness. why should Larry, or anyone else, need to host guests who may have been exposed to C-19 via the staff of a neighbor winery? it's selfish.
[/quote]

This is scientifically incorrect, and I question how behavior of employees at a nearby business in any way compromises your business.

First, should a customer get exposed down the block and come to your tasting room, the disease has not progressed enough for them to be contagious. It takes a number of days after being exposed to a virus before the virus begins replicating and the person is shedding virus and becomes contagious.

Second, most masks - especially the home-made ones - are not very helpful. For those who wear glasses, have you noticed how they fog up when wearing a mask? That is because your moist exhaled breath escapes around the mask edges - and it is this air that spreads covid. Scarves, face-cloths, etc, become wet with exhaled air moisture over time, and they can emit virus-laden aerosols. They do help with coughing or sneezing, which should be mostly avoidable by pre-screening customers.

Third, what about customers tasting? Their masks are off, right?

I work in health care and we use fit-tested (by a licensed vendor) N95 respirators which are much more effective than paper surgical masks or cloth. But they are very uncomfortable and you don't see many in public.

Along the lines of Merrill's argument, ratting on a competitor violates tenets of MYOB, and could be viewed as a way to hurt the business of a competitor. eg, you might get more business if the competitor is shut down for a time. In my practice I've lost patients to competitors who are charging less because they aren't fully complying with health department regulations, but I don't want or need to rat them out. If customers are put off by maskless employees, let them leave and not come back. The market takes care of things better than government.
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Re: Ever Have To File A Complaint About Another Winery?

#78 Post by Adam Noble » September 12th, 2020, 1:45 pm

I’m gonna go ahead and take my mask wearing advice from Dr Fauci v Dr Atlas and friends.

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Re: Ever Have To File A Complaint About Another Winery?

#79 Post by David K o l i n » September 12th, 2020, 2:23 pm

Adam Noble wrote:
September 12th, 2020, 1:45 pm
I’m gonna go ahead and take my mask wearing advice from Dr Fauci v Dr Atlas and friends.
Yup

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Re: Ever Have To File A Complaint About Another Winery?

#80 Post by Mark Golodetz » September 12th, 2020, 2:25 pm

2584]
Kim Z wrote:
September 12th, 2020, 1:13 pm


- safety: literally, this winery has decided the safety of their team and guests - who may go visit other wineries in a given area - is not a priority and they can be spreading infections due to this carelessness. why should Larry, or anyone else, need to host guests who may have been exposed to C-19 via the staff of a neighbor winery? it's selfish.


This is scientifically incorrect, and I question how behavior of employees at a nearby business in any way compromises your business.

First, should a customer get exposed down the block and come to your tasting room, the disease has not progressed enough for them to be contagious. It takes a number of days after being exposed to a virus before the virus begins replicating and the person is shedding virus and becomes contagious.

Second, most masks - especially the home-made ones - are not very helpful. For those who wear glasses, have you noticed how they fog up when wearing a mask? That is because your moist exhaled breath escapes around the mask edges - and it is this air that spreads covid. Scarves, face-cloths, etc, become wet with exhaled air moisture over time, and they can emit virus-laden aerosols. They do help with coughing or sneezing, which should be mostly avoidable by pre-screening customers.

Third, what about customers tasting? Their masks are off, right?

I work in health care and we use fit-tested (by a licensed vendor) N95 respirators which are much more effective than paper surgical masks or cloth. But they are very uncomfortable and you don't see many in public.

Along the lines of Merrill's argument, ratting on a competitor violates tenets of MYOB, and could be viewed as a way to hurt the business of a competitor. eg, you might get more business if the competitor is shut down for a time. In my practice I've lost patients to competitors who are charging less because they aren't fully complying with health department regulations, but I don't want or need to rat them out. If customers are put off by maskless employees, let them leave and not come back. The market takes care of things better than government.
I am glad you are so concerned with the social niceties if one of your neighbors breaks the law and endangers the community as a whole. If people wore masks as experts keep telling us, then 190,000 Americans would not now be dead, and COVID would be far more contained than it is now.

I think it is telling you have lost patients, with the likelihood that a portion of those patients will get sick and die. You are not going to rat them out, because despite being a responsible health care professional, it might be considered rude. Meanwhile while you wait for the market forces to correct their behavior, this disease is getting out of control.

It is time that people realized that it not isolated micro situations, but every single episode may have macro consequences. We should be looking at this country wide, with everybody made responsible for doing everything in their power not to spread the disease. You, as a health care professional, should know better.
Last edited by Mark Golodetz on September 12th, 2020, 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ever Have To File A Complaint About Another Winery?

#81 Post by Victor Hong » September 12th, 2020, 4:20 pm

Kim Z wrote:
September 12th, 2020, 1:13 pm


- safety: literally, this winery has decided the safety of their team and guests - who may go visit other wineries in a given area - is not a priority and they can be spreading infections due to this carelessness. why should Larry, or anyone else, need to host guests who may have been exposed to C-19 via the staff of a neighbor winery? it's selfish.


This is scientifically incorrect, and I question how behavior of employees at a nearby business in any way compromises your business.

First, should a customer get exposed down the block and come to your tasting room, the disease has not progressed enough for them to be contagious. It takes a number of days after being exposed to a virus before the virus begins replicating and the person is shedding virus and becomes contagious.

Second, most masks - especially the home-made ones - are not very helpful. For those who wear glasses, have you noticed how they fog up when wearing a mask? That is because your moist exhaled breath escapes around the mask edges - and it is this air that spreads covid. Scarves, face-cloths, etc, become wet with exhaled air moisture over time, and they can emit virus-laden aerosols. They do help with coughing or sneezing, which should be mostly avoidable by pre-screening customers.

Third, what about customers tasting? Their masks are off, right?

I work in health care and we use fit-tested (by a licensed vendor) N95 respirators which are much more effective than paper surgical masks or cloth. But they are very uncomfortable and you don't see many in public.

Along the lines of Merrill's argument, ratting on a competitor violates tenets of MYOB, and could be viewed as a way to hurt the business of a competitor. eg, you might get more business if the competitor is shut down for a time. In my practice I've lost patients to competitors who are charging less because they aren't fully complying with health department regulations, but I don't want or need to rat them out. If customers are put off by maskless employees, let them leave and not come back. The market takes care of things better than government.
Ratting out? Sounds like mob talk, where people despise being discovered to have broken rules.

Is public health a business strategy for eliminating competitors?

By your logic, should a health professional be reluctant wash his or her own hands, after each medical procedure? After all, hand-washing is helpful but not perfect, and also the next patient should just MYOB.
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Re: Ever Have To File A Complaint About Another Winery?

#82 Post by Victor Hong » September 12th, 2020, 5:24 pm

Merrill Lindquist wrote:
August 2nd, 2020, 2:00 pm
I believe that relationships within the community (winemaking) are important. Whether some one is wearing a mask or not at another winery, I would not consider my business.
Minding your own business?

Suppose that you were about to lend substantial money to somebody, whom everybody else---except you---recognized to be a thief or deadbeat.
Would you appreciate if those other persons alerted you beforehand?

Suppose that your neighbor were applying illegal and toxic pesticides onto his or her vineyard, likely to leak into and severely impact adjacent vineyards, about which everybody else---except you---was aware.
Would you appreciate if those other persons alerted you?
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Re: Ever Have To File A Complaint About Another Winery?

#83 Post by Kim Z » September 12th, 2020, 9:09 pm

Mark Golodetz wrote:
September 12th, 2020, 2:25 pm
2584]
Kim Z wrote:
September 12th, 2020, 1:13 pm


- safety: literally, this winery has decided the safety of their team and guests - who may go visit other wineries in a given area - is not a priority and they can be spreading infections due to this carelessness. why should Larry, or anyone else, need to host guests who may have been exposed to C-19 via the staff of a neighbor winery? it's selfish.


This is scientifically incorrect, and I question how behavior of employees at a nearby business in any way compromises your business.

First, should a customer get exposed down the block and come to your tasting room, the disease has not progressed enough for them to be contagious. It takes a number of days after being exposed to a virus before the virus begins replicating and the person is shedding virus and becomes contagious.

Second, most masks - especially the home-made ones - are not very helpful. For those who wear glasses, have you noticed how they fog up when wearing a mask? That is because your moist exhaled breath escapes around the mask edges - and it is this air that spreads covid. Scarves, face-cloths, etc, become wet with exhaled air moisture over time, and they can emit virus-laden aerosols. They do help with coughing or sneezing, which should be mostly avoidable by pre-screening customers.

Third, what about customers tasting? Their masks are off, right?

I work in health care and we use fit-tested (by a licensed vendor) N95 respirators which are much more effective than paper surgical masks or cloth. But they are very uncomfortable and you don't see many in public.

Along the lines of Merrill's argument, ratting on a competitor violates tenets of MYOB, and could be viewed as a way to hurt the business of a competitor. eg, you might get more business if the competitor is shut down for a time. In my practice I've lost patients to competitors who are charging less because they aren't fully complying with health department regulations, but I don't want or need to rat them out. If customers are put off by maskless employees, let them leave and not come back. The market takes care of things better than government.
I am glad you are so concerned with the social niceties if one of your neighbors breaks the law and endangers the community as a whole. If people wore masks as experts keep telling us, then 190,000 Americans would not now be dead, and COVID would be far more contained than it is now.

I think it is telling you have lost patients, with the likelihood that a portion of those patients will get sick and die. You are not going to rat them out, because despite being a responsible health care professional, it might be considered rude. Meanwhile while you wait for the market forces to correct their behavior, this disease is getting out of control.

It is time that people realized that it not isolated micro situations, but every single episode may have macro consequences. We should be looking at this country wide, with everybody made responsible for doing everything in their power not to spread the disease. You, as a health care professional, should know better.
Mark thank you for the uneducated lecture. I suggest next time read what someone writes before you try to virtue-signal them into submission.

My office is 100% compliant with health department regulations - in fact as with many in my county we were inspected and passed with flying colors. I was referring to my competitors who lured away patients with lower fees, while they were not fully compliant with the regulations. Were you not able to understand that while rushing to judgement?

More to the point the evidence that masks significantly impact the trajectory of C-19 is highly debatable - and the debate is not suited to this forum. (I have followed the studies diligently and was trained to do so. I would be happy to show the evidence elsewhere) Setting that aside, with any business there are those who follow the rules and those who don't - obviously even before covid. In rare cases there may be benefits to running to the authorities to protect you from others. But a more dignified, manly (yes you heard it here) way to go is to compete fairly and fight and stand on your own two feet. Customers are not stupid and they can figure out who is cheating.
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Re: Ever Have To File A Complaint About Another Winery?

#84 Post by Kim Z » September 12th, 2020, 9:16 pm

Victor Hong wrote:
September 12th, 2020, 4:20 pm
Kim Z wrote:
September 12th, 2020, 1:13 pm


- safety: literally, this winery has decided the safety of their team and guests - who may go visit other wineries in a given area - is not a priority and they can be spreading infections due to this carelessness. why should Larry, or anyone else, need to host guests who may have been exposed to C-19 via the staff of a neighbor winery? it's selfish.


This is scientifically incorrect, and I question how behavior of employees at a nearby business in any way compromises your business.

First, should a customer get exposed down the block and come to your tasting room, the disease has not progressed enough for them to be contagious. It takes a number of days after being exposed to a virus before the virus begins replicating and the person is shedding virus and becomes contagious.

Second, most masks - especially the home-made ones - are not very helpful. For those who wear glasses, have you noticed how they fog up when wearing a mask? That is because your moist exhaled breath escapes around the mask edges - and it is this air that spreads covid. Scarves, face-cloths, etc, become wet with exhaled air moisture over time, and they can emit virus-laden aerosols. They do help with coughing or sneezing, which should be mostly avoidable by pre-screening customers.

Third, what about customers tasting? Their masks are off, right?

I work in health care and we use fit-tested (by a licensed vendor) N95 respirators which are much more effective than paper surgical masks or cloth. But they are very uncomfortable and you don't see many in public.

Along the lines of Merrill's argument, ratting on a competitor violates tenets of MYOB, and could be viewed as a way to hurt the business of a competitor. eg, you might get more business if the competitor is shut down for a time. In my practice I've lost patients to competitors who are charging less because they aren't fully complying with health department regulations, but I don't want or need to rat them out. If customers are put off by maskless employees, let them leave and not come back. The market takes care of things better than government.
Ratting out? Sounds like mob talk, where people despise being discovered to have broken rules.

Is public health a business strategy for eliminating competitors?

By your logic, should a health professional be reluctant wash his or her own hands, after each medical procedure? After all, hand-washing is helpful but not perfect, and also the next patient should just MYOB.

Victor neither I or anyone else requires your judgment of our logic. Hand washing and mask wearing are not comparable. Hand washing reduces contagion risk 10X or 100X, whereas masks have minimal effect. This is the science and you can look up the studies.
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Re: Ever Have To File A Complaint About Another Winery?

#85 Post by Adam Noble » September 12th, 2020, 9:41 pm

I’m pleased the almighty market allows me to find another provider than Kim. My guess is the market also says that his insurer required masks in his office. But what do insurers know? Clearly they don’t follow the science.

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Re: Ever Have To File A Complaint About Another Winery?

#86 Post by Victor Hong » September 13th, 2020, 6:07 am

Kim Z wrote:
September 12th, 2020, 1:13 pm


- safety: literally, this winery has decided the safety of their team and guests - who may go visit other wineries in a given area - is not a priority and they can be spreading infections due to this carelessness. why should Larry, or anyone else, need to host guests who may have been exposed to C-19 via the staff of a neighbor winery? it's selfish.


This is scientifically incorrect, and I question how behavior of employees at a nearby business in any way compromises your business.

First, should a customer get exposed down the block and come to your tasting room, the disease has not progressed enough for them to be contagious. It takes a number of days after being exposed to a virus before the virus begins replicating and the person is shedding virus and becomes contagious.

Second, most masks - especially the home-made ones - are not very helpful. For those who wear glasses, have you noticed how they fog up when wearing a mask? That is because your moist exhaled breath escapes around the mask edges - and it is this air that spreads covid. Scarves, face-cloths, etc, become wet with exhaled air moisture over time, and they can emit virus-laden aerosols. They do help with coughing or sneezing, which should be mostly avoidable by pre-screening customers.

Third, what about customers tasting? Their masks are off, right?

I work in health care and we use fit-tested (by a licensed vendor) N95 respirators which are much more effective than paper surgical masks or cloth. But they are very uncomfortable and you don't see many in public.

Along the lines of Merrill's argument, ratting on a competitor violates tenets of MYOB, and could be viewed as a way to hurt the business of a competitor. eg, you might get more business if the competitor is shut down for a time. In my practice I've lost patients to competitors who are charging less because they aren't fully complying with health department regulations, but I don't want or need to rat them out. If customers are put off by maskless employees, let them leave and not come back. The market takes care of things better than government.
I hate when people rat out my noodle shop.
Meanwhile, come by soon for some secret-recipe, locally pastured meat dumplings.
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Re: Ever Have To File A Complaint About Another Winery?

#87 Post by Siun o'Connell » September 13th, 2020, 6:19 am

I suspect it was Kim’s winning personality rather than any price differences that led his customers to change providers.

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Re: Ever Have To File A Complaint About Another Winery?

#88 Post by Mark Golodetz » September 13th, 2020, 6:28 am

Siun o'Connell wrote:
September 13th, 2020, 6:19 am
I suspect it was Kim’s winning personality rather than any price differences that led his customers to change providers.
He is a modest guy; he has read the literature and knows more than Fauci. Wouldn’t you want to be treated by a guy who reads a little and can claim he is more informed than the leading epidemiologist who has been leading Niaid since 1984? You can not argue with that level of arrogance.
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Re: Ever Have To File A Complaint About Another Winery?

#89 Post by Mark Golodetz » September 13th, 2020, 6:36 am

Kim Z wrote:
September 12th, 2020, 9:09 pm
Mark Golodetz wrote:
September 12th, 2020, 2:25 pm
2584]
Kim Z wrote:
September 12th, 2020, 1:13 pm


- safety: literally, this winery has decided the safety of their team and guests - who may go visit other wineries in a given area - is not a priority and they can be spreading infections due to this carelessness. why should Larry, or anyone else, need to host guests who may have been exposed to C-19 via the staff of a neighbor winery? it's selfish.


This is scientifically incorrect, and I question how behavior of employees at a nearby business in any way compromises your business.

First, should a customer get exposed down the block and come to your tasting room, the disease has not progressed enough for them to be contagious. It takes a number of days after being exposed to a virus before the virus begins replicating and the person is shedding virus and becomes contagious.

Second, most masks - especially the home-made ones - are not very helpful. For those who wear glasses, have you noticed how they fog up when wearing a mask? That is because your moist exhaled breath escapes around the mask edges - and it is this air that spreads covid. Scarves, face-cloths, etc, become wet with exhaled air moisture over time, and they can emit virus-laden aerosols. They do help with coughing or sneezing, which should be mostly avoidable by pre-screening customers.

Third, what about customers tasting? Their masks are off, right?

I work in health care and we use fit-tested (by a licensed vendor) N95 respirators which are much more effective than paper surgical masks or cloth. But they are very uncomfortable and you don't see many in public.

Along the lines of Merrill's argument, ratting on a competitor violates tenets of MYOB, and could be viewed as a way to hurt the business of a competitor. eg, you might get more business if the competitor is shut down for a time. In my practice I've lost patients to competitors who are charging less because they aren't fully complying with health department regulations, but I don't want or need to rat them out. If customers are put off by maskless employees, let them leave and not come back. The market takes care of things better than government.
I am glad you are so concerned with the social niceties if one of your neighbors breaks the law and endangers the community as a whole. If people wore masks as experts keep telling us, then 190,000 Americans would not now be dead, and COVID would be far more contained than it is now.

I think it is telling you have lost patients, with the likelihood that a portion of those patients will get sick and die. You are not going to rat them out, because despite being a responsible health care professional, it might be considered rude. Meanwhile while you wait for the market forces to correct their behavior, this disease is getting out of control.

It is time that people realized that it not isolated micro situations, but every single episode may have macro consequences. We should be looking at this country wide, with everybody made responsible for doing everything in their power not to spread the disease. You, as a health care professional, should know better.
Mark thank you for the uneducated lecture. I suggest next time read what someone writes before you try to virtue-signal them into submission.

My office is 100% compliant with health department regulations - in fact as with many in my county we were inspected and passed with flying colors. I was referring to my competitors who lured away patients with lower fees, while they were not fully compliant with the regulations. Were you not able to understand that while rushing to judgement?

More to the point the evidence that masks significantly impact the trajectory of C-19 is highly debatable - and the debate is not suited to this forum. (I have followed the studies diligently and was trained to do so. I would be happy to show the evidence elsewhere) Setting that aside, with any business there are those who follow the rules and those who don't - obviously even before covid. In rare cases there may be benefits to running to the authorities to protect you from others. But a more dignified, manly (yes you heard it here) way to go is to compete fairly and fight and stand on your own two feet. Customers are not stupid and they can figure out who is cheating.
In the short exchanges we have had, I am not surprised by the new crap you have come out with.

Where in my response did I say, suggest or imply that you were not adhering to the guidelines. I did however say that you should have no problem ratting out your competition that is not complying, rather than waiting for some bizarre market forces to bring back your clients, probably because a few of them died. By not saying anything, you share a certain amount of culpability.
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Re: Ever Have To File A Complaint About Another Winery?

#90 Post by Siun o'Connell » September 13th, 2020, 11:00 am

Mark Golodetz wrote:
September 13th, 2020, 6:28 am
Siun o'Connell wrote:
September 13th, 2020, 6:19 am
I suspect it was Kim’s winning personality rather than any price differences that led his customers to change providers.
He is a modest guy; he has read the literature and knows more than Fauci. Wouldn’t you want to be treated by a guy who reads a little and can claim he is more informed than the leading epidemiologist who has been leading Niaid since 1984? You can not argue with that level of arrogance.
Gosh Mark, you left out how “manly” Kim is ... standing against convention and all that.


On a more serious note, I love Larry’s wines but I also love how he does business. Integrity matters.

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Re: Ever Have To File A Complaint About Another Winery?

#91 Post by Merrill Lindquist » September 13th, 2020, 11:18 am

I have been staying away from this thread as the antagonism is a bit much. But now that I am being quoted, please note that Larry was not forthcoming in his original post just what type of infraction he felt he was dealing with. It took 10 posts before he explained this was another to mask or not to mask thread. I would not have ventured in if I knew what the question really was. However, knowing all the details, now, I still, as a winery here in Napa Valley, would not file a complaint with the authorities against a fellow winery. I still put it in the "not worth it" category. Hang me.
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Re: Ever Have To File A Complaint About Another Winery?

#92 Post by David K o l i n » September 13th, 2020, 11:25 am

Kim Z wrote:
September 12th, 2020, 9:16 pm
Victor Hong wrote:
September 12th, 2020, 4:20 pm
Kim Z wrote:
September 12th, 2020, 1:13 pm


- safety: literally, this winery has decided the safety of their team and guests - who may go visit other wineries in a given area - is not a priority and they can be spreading infections due to this carelessness. why should Larry, or anyone else, need to host guests who may have been exposed to C-19 via the staff of a neighbor winery? it's selfish.


This is scientifically incorrect, and I question how behavior of employees at a nearby business in any way compromises your business.

First, should a customer get exposed down the block and come to your tasting room, the disease has not progressed enough for them to be contagious. It takes a number of days after being exposed to a virus before the virus begins replicating and the person is shedding virus and becomes contagious.

Second, most masks - especially the home-made ones - are not very helpful. For those who wear glasses, have you noticed how they fog up when wearing a mask? That is because your moist exhaled breath escapes around the mask edges - and it is this air that spreads covid. Scarves, face-cloths, etc, become wet with exhaled air moisture over time, and they can emit virus-laden aerosols. They do help with coughing or sneezing, which should be mostly avoidable by pre-screening customers.

Third, what about customers tasting? Their masks are off, right?

I work in health care and we use fit-tested (by a licensed vendor) N95 respirators which are much more effective than paper surgical masks or cloth. But they are very uncomfortable and you don't see many in public.

Along the lines of Merrill's argument, ratting on a competitor violates tenets of MYOB, and could be viewed as a way to hurt the business of a competitor. eg, you might get more business if the competitor is shut down for a time. In my practice I've lost patients to competitors who are charging less because they aren't fully complying with health department regulations, but I don't want or need to rat them out. If customers are put off by maskless employees, let them leave and not come back. The market takes care of things better than government.
Ratting out? Sounds like mob talk, where people despise being discovered to have broken rules.

Is public health a business strategy for eliminating competitors?

By your logic, should a health professional be reluctant wash his or her own hands, after each medical procedure? After all, hand-washing is helpful but not perfect, and also the next patient should just MYOB.

Victor neither I or anyone else requires your judgment of our logic. Hand washing and mask wearing are not comparable. Hand washing reduces contagion risk 10X or 100X, whereas masks have minimal effect. This is the science and you can look up the studies.
I’d love to see the studies you are referring to given the universal public health advice to wear masks. Recent studies from accredited institutions, please. I’m having trouble finding them on my own

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Re: Ever Have To File A Complaint About Another Winery?

#93 Post by Adam Noble » September 13th, 2020, 11:45 am

I might have seen something in Jenny McCarthy’s Facebook page.

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Re: Ever Have To File A Complaint About Another Winery?

#94 Post by Paul Luckin » September 13th, 2020, 12:38 pm

Kim Z wrote:
September 12th, 2020, 9:09 pm
Mark Golodetz wrote:
September 12th, 2020, 2:25 pm
2584]
Kim Z wrote:
September 12th, 2020, 1:13 pm


- safety: literally, this winery has decided the safety of their team and guests - who may go visit other wineries in a given area - is not a priority and they can be spreading infections due to this carelessness. why should Larry, or anyone else, need to host guests who may have been exposed to C-19 via the staff of a neighbor winery? it's selfish.


This is scientifically incorrect, and I question how behavior of employees at a nearby business in any way compromises your business.

First, should a customer get exposed down the block and come to your tasting room, the disease has not progressed enough for them to be contagious. It takes a number of days after being exposed to a virus before the virus begins replicating and the person is shedding virus and becomes contagious.

Second, most masks - especially the home-made ones - are not very helpful. For those who wear glasses, have you noticed how they fog up when wearing a mask? That is because your moist exhaled breath escapes around the mask edges - and it is this air that spreads covid. Scarves, face-cloths, etc, become wet with exhaled air moisture over time, and they can emit virus-laden aerosols. They do help with coughing or sneezing, which should be mostly avoidable by pre-screening customers.

Third, what about customers tasting? Their masks are off, right?

I work in health care and we use fit-tested (by a licensed vendor) N95 respirators which are much more effective than paper surgical masks or cloth. But they are very uncomfortable and you don't see many in public.

Along the lines of Merrill's argument, ratting on a competitor violates tenets of MYOB, and could be viewed as a way to hurt the business of a competitor. eg, you might get more business if the competitor is shut down for a time. In my practice I've lost patients to competitors who are charging less because they aren't fully complying with health department regulations, but I don't want or need to rat them out. If customers are put off by maskless employees, let them leave and not come back. The market takes care of things better than government.
I am glad you are so concerned with the social niceties if one of your neighbors breaks the law and endangers the community as a whole. If people wore masks as experts keep telling us, then 190,000 Americans would not now be dead, and COVID would be far more contained than it is now.

I think it is telling you have lost patients, with the likelihood that a portion of those patients will get sick and die. You are not going to rat them out, because despite being a responsible health care professional, it might be considered rude. Meanwhile while you wait for the market forces to correct their behavior, this disease is getting out of control.

It is time that people realized that it not isolated micro situations, but every single episode may have macro consequences. We should be looking at this country wide, with everybody made responsible for doing everything in their power not to spread the disease. You, as a health care professional, should know better.
Mark thank you for the uneducated lecture. I suggest next time read what someone writes before you try to virtue-signal them into submission.

My office is 100% compliant with health department regulations - in fact as with many in my county we were inspected and passed with flying colors. I was referring to my competitors who lured away patients with lower fees, while they were not fully compliant with the regulations. Were you not able to understand that while rushing to judgement?

More to the point the evidence that masks significantly impact the trajectory of C-19 is highly debatable - and the debate is not suited to this forum. (I have followed the studies diligently and was trained to do so. I would be happy to show the evidence elsewhere) Setting that aside, with any business there are those who follow the rules and those who don't - obviously even before covid. In rare cases there may be benefits to running to the authorities to protect you from others. But a more dignified, manly (yes you heard it here) way to go is to compete fairly and fight and stand on your own two feet. Customers are not stupid and they can figure out who is cheating.
it's one thing to question the efficacy of wearing masks. it's a different thing when a winery blatantly goes against the guidelines issued by various agencies to allow them to be open and serve guests.

with regard to the bold above: the hospitality industry as a whole, from wineries, breweries, and distilleries, to drivers, concierges, hotels, resorts, restaurants, production and vineyard crews, is in a bad way right now. "competing fairly" could be viewed as being compliant with the rules and not putting people (employees, guests, etc.) at unnecessary risk. for any reason.

as stated earlier, it is incumbent upon everyone in the industry to come together in unity and present a message where the health and safety of our guests, teams, and larger community is paramount. when people within the industry start going rogue, e.g. what the winery in question is doing, it reflects poorly upon us all. considering the situation we're all in, it's at best tone-deaf and at worst plainly selfish and potentially destructive. if our guests don't feel safe in visiting the area, they just won't come.
\m/ >_< \m/

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Re: Ever Have To File A Complaint About Another Winery?

#95 Post by Mark Golodetz » September 13th, 2020, 1:43 pm

Adam Noble wrote:
September 13th, 2020, 11:45 am
I might have seen something in Jenny McCarthy’s Facebook page.
I understand Denis Rodman also had something pithy to say on the subject.
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Re: Ever Have To File A Complaint About Another Winery?

#96 Post by Victor Hong » September 13th, 2020, 2:54 pm

If Merrill, Kim, or others have no problem with wineries violating nationwide health safety guidelines, would they object if such wineries were publicly named?
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Re: Ever Have To File A Complaint About Another Winery?

#97 Post by Victor Hong » September 13th, 2020, 6:50 pm

Merrill Lindquist wrote:
September 13th, 2020, 11:18 am
I have been staying away from this thread as the antagonism is a bit much. But now that I am being quoted, please note that Larry was not forthcoming in his original post just what type of infraction he felt he was dealing with. It took 10 posts before he explained this was another to mask or not to mask thread. I would not have ventured in if I knew what the question really was. However, knowing all the details, now, I still, as a winery here in Napa Valley, would not file a complaint with the authorities against a fellow winery. I still put it in the "not worth it" category. Hang me.
Not worthwhile in terms of the private business or public health impact?
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Re: Ever Have To File A Complaint About Another Winery?

#98 Post by Wes Barton » September 13th, 2020, 9:04 pm

Paul Luckin wrote:
September 13th, 2020, 12:38 pm
it's one thing to question the efficacy of wearing masks. it's a different thing when a winery blatantly goes against the guidelines issued by various agencies to allow them to be open and serve guests.

with regard to the bold above: the hospitality industry as a whole, from wineries, breweries, and distilleries, to drivers, concierges, hotels, resorts, restaurants, production and vineyard crews, is in a bad way right now. "competing fairly" could be viewed as being compliant with the rules and not putting people (employees, guests, etc.) at unnecessary risk. for any reason.

as stated earlier, it is incumbent upon everyone in the industry to come together in unity and present a message where the health and safety of our guests, teams, and larger community is paramount. when people within the industry start going rogue, e.g. what the winery in question is doing, it reflects poorly upon us all. considering the situation we're all in, it's at best tone-deaf and at worst plainly selfish and potentially destructive. if our guests don't feel safe in visiting the area, they just won't come.
As someone with a few decades experience in the service industry, you're inspiring me to riff on a few things...

We're assuming this winery has found an unfair advantage breaking the rules. In this political environment, maybe. But, things are so unusual now, how do we know? You can't compare to long run metrics. Also, outward appearance of a busy tasting room doesn't mean great sales. Maybe they're full of a bunch of lingers out for a good time, who aren't buying. Maybe the people more apt to buy see what's going on and just turn around and go elsewhere. Would the owner or employees notice people doing that? Then there's the take away impression. Most people are sheepish and polite. They go with the flow, because that's what everyone is doing. They might feel uneasy, but make the best of it. Then the unease sets in after the fact They didn't say anything or let on, but they never come back.

Then, what about Yelp and such? How could there not be reviews slamming them for what they're doing? (Probably also positively mentioning it.)
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Re: Ever Have To File A Complaint About Another Winery?

#99 Post by Kim Z » September 14th, 2020, 6:43 am

Victor Hong wrote:
September 13th, 2020, 2:54 pm
If Merrill, Kim, or others have no problem with wineries violating nationwide health safety guidelines, would they object if such wineries were publicly named?
At least in CA the guidelines vary by county - which is more appropriate than one size fits all solutions.

To your suggestion of doxing "violating" wineries, how would you go about this? First, what evidence of local guidelines would you require? And assuming you (or anyone) are self-qualified to judge, what venues would you use to publish your findings? Assuming authorities won't take action, would outing home addresses of winery workers be OK?
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Re: Ever Have To File A Complaint About Another Winery?

#100 Post by Victor Hong » September 14th, 2020, 6:58 am

Merrill Lindquist wrote:
September 13th, 2020, 11:18 am
I have been staying away from this thread as the antagonism is a bit much. But now that I am being quoted, please note that Larry was not forthcoming in his original post just what type of infraction he felt he was dealing with. It took 10 posts before he explained this was another to mask or not to mask thread. I would not have ventured in if I knew what the question really was. However, knowing all the details, now, I still, as a winery here in Napa Valley, would not file a complaint with the authorities against a fellow winery. I still put it in the "not worth it" category. Hang me.
Kim Z wrote:
September 14th, 2020, 6:43 am
Victor Hong wrote:
September 13th, 2020, 2:54 pm
If Merrill, Kim, or others have no problem with wineries violating nationwide health safety guidelines, would they object if such wineries were publicly named?
At least in CA the guidelines vary by county - which is more appropriate than one size fits all solutions.

To your suggestion of doxing "violating" wineries, how would you go about this? First, what evidence of local guidelines would you require? And assuming you (or anyone) are self-qualified to judge, what venues would you use to publish your findings? Assuming authorities won't take action, would outing home addresses of winery workers be OK?
A bona fide citizen observation would be referred to the relevant local or state authorities. The authorities are responsible for due process of any report.
The same applies also for other potential law violations involving labor, health, sanitation, environment, liquor, etc.

Otherwise, we operate in a "see, hear, and speak no evil" world.
WineHunter.

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