Winemakers: question about oak powder

I’ve been informed by a winemaker that adding oak powder to red wine primary fermentation helps “fix” color as well as add tannin, and that it is done regularly.

True?

True . . .not that I have done it myself. The concept here is that added tannin early in the fermentation process will help anthocyanins bind to tannins, creating more polymeric pigments - and thus fixing color . . .

Hope that helps.

Cheers!

Larry,

I’m aware of adding tannin, but I wasn’t aware that it was done in the form of oak powder–or is that just another description of the tannin extract?

Wouldn’t the oak powder add “wood” flavors as well?

Neither Dan nor I are fans of color manipulation, so we have never added tannins or oak powder. And see no reason to begin doing so, but then we produce zins and syrahs so color management is seldom an issue. Maybe it’s used more frequently in the uber-competitive world of pinot? I know most of our zin/syrah producing friends don’t worry about it. What the heck is wrong with the color red, anyway? I know guys who would go nuts over a voluptuous redhead in a red dress with red heels, but their damn wines have always got to be purple. Unfaithful geeks.

I realize I may be in the minority, but color is never an issue for me in pinot noir. In fact, if it’s too dark I’m pre-disposed to dislike it.

Yeah, but I’ll bet the red winemakers here on the East Coast need it once in a while. In fact, it was one of them who mentioned this to me.

I suppose my real question is about the flavor: how can the wood flavor be controlled under such circumstances?

If you’re in the minority, Bob, then so am I.

Some of the most elegant Pinot Noirs I’ve tasted have been lean in color and body.

Good point. You guys have really challenging growing conditions. How much wood powder would be added to a fermenter? How do the supplier specs address that issue?

We don’t use any products for color manipulation either, making mostly Zinfandel and Carignane we don’t need to.

Most likely the oak powder/chips aren’t adding much aroma to the fermentations for reds is that the biomass is large and there are other reactions going on with the oak products that are limiting it.

Pascal Chatonnet gave a talk about using Oak Alternatives at Unified Symposium in 2008.

-Bryan

Thanks, Bryan. I’ll have to find a copy of that talk.


Mary, I haven’t produced wine since 1992, so my interest is purely for my writing. But I will ask around, now that I know a little more about the concept. We didn’t do such things then, and I didn’t produce any red wine at Keuka Lake.

I agree that color in Pinot is a side issue. That said, most any review scale includes points for color and unfortunately, most reviewers will score a Pinot lower if its not dark in color (using enzymes?). Stupid, I know, but consumers then learn and follow this stupidity and I cringe every time someone picks up a glass of Pinot, looks at color and says, Hmmm, very light. No matter what you say after that point matters, their minds are set.

Tannins are added to ferments, at crush. To be honest, I am not sure how much they do add, color wise. You’ll still drop some color once you start aging. Good question and I am curious if anyone did any side by side, same juice at crush, one with tannins added and one not.

I’ve seen someone add tannins to Syrah, and when asked, was told, “To protect against botrytis/mold”. Yeah, I am still scratching my head on that one…

Larry,
Two things:
-Isn’t there a difference between oak powder and powdered tannins?
-I have also heard of people adding tannins not just to fix color but to bind anthrocyanins with grape skin tannin first rather than with seed/stem tannins that come out in extraction later in the ferment. Does that sound close?
Best, Jim

Yeah, Jim. That’s why I asked the question. I know about adding tannin, but had never thought or heard about adding oak powder at fermentation as THE tannin. Wondered if they are the same thing; still don’t know the answer to that question.

What I was told is that the oak powder adds tannin and fixes skin anthrocyanin.

It seems risky to me to add oak powder at the fermenter without having control over what it might do to wine flavor, but I must be missing something.

Greg, I’m always suspicious of deeply red Pinot Noir, not for the process it might have undergone, but because I look for elegance over in-your-face wine, and I’ve found elegance more often than not in the lighter version of PN.

Here are my various understandings about tannins and oak powder:

Oak Powder (or chips) in the fermentor: This is usually untoasted oak…rather than the toasted oak you’d use during barrel aging. I’ve been told that oak during fermentation is a way to eliminate vegetal flavors in wine. A vineyard…one block I got had an herbal quality to it (due partly to the rootstock and partly due to the block’s windy exposure). The vineyard manager mentioned that others had managed the herbal quality with oak in in the fermentor (did some research which echoed this claim). I didn’t try it tho…I don’t mind a bit of herbalness in a pinot…depending on the qualities. Also, oak during the fermentor is a way of building up the midpalate of a wine. The massive midpalate quality that Aussie Shiraz’s have is due in part to oak in the fermentor. I’m not a big fan of this quality tho…esp in pinots. Anyways, if you’re adding oak powder in the fermentor, I think you’d do that more for the oak phenolics than the tannins…tho you’ll get tannins as well…you can by oak chips that have the tannins removed (not sure how, by threats possibly) so that’s an option as well I suppose.

Tannins: Either condensed tannins (i.e. grape skin/seed/stem tannins) or hydrolyzable tannins (i.e wood tannins). There are some differences in how they react in wine.
Both will bind to proteins. When crushed, the must contains some amount of protein (some from the grape, some from the protein walking around on the grapes)…tannins bind to these proteins and they drop out. Someone (scott labs I think) argued that adding tannins at the crusher means the added tannins will do the binding and drop out…leaving the tannins from your grapes to stay in the wine. An interesting argument if you’re trying to boost the tannin levels of your wine (I haven’t tried this tho).
My understanding is that condensed tannins (grape) are the only tannins that bind with anthocyanins (grape color). I can’t rectify this with the comments that adding oak in the fermentor increases color…cuz hydrolyzable (oak) tannins shouldn’t be able to bind with anthocyanins…but maybe the extra tannins are binding with proteins…donno.
Botrytis: Botrytis produces laccase, an enzyme that oxidizes wine…fairly destructive and apparantly very difficult to remove. I’ve read that tannins can help control laccase (laccase is a protein (enzymes are proteins) hence tannins can bind to it)…what I’ve never understood completely is once a tannin binds to laccase, is the laccase out of commission (i.e. does it drop out of solution). Or is it a temporary solution, only to reoccur sometime later. A high fermentation temp seems to be the best recommendation for laccase (high enough temps will denature laccase). Uh, keeping the botrytis out in the first place is the best solution

Extended Maceration is my preferred way of increasing tannins…or possibly adding stems if they’re ripe.

I tried using some oak powder on one lot of Cab this year. I’m always doing small experiments to educate myself. Nothing like experience… The reason I tried oak powder this year is, Sherley Mulinary(sp?) from vinquiry mentioned trying it in order to bind and settle some of the potencial 4- methylguaiacol from the wild fires we had this year. It’s difficult to tell whether it had any effect as the smoke taint didn’t really materialize in our wines. We had three weeks of smoke free days/nights just before and during verasion, which, from what I understand, is the period when 90% of the 4-mgl compound is absorbed by the plants. Dodged a bullet on that one.
I took a two ton lot and did one with a small amount of untoasted and one without. The wines are just finishing ml right now, so I haven’t really analyzed the wines yet. I would normally never add anything like this, as I’m not a fan of manipulating my wines, but I thought I’d try it out to see what the result was.

Add me into the camp with you guys.

Andy, are you talking about Camp Runamok, again?

Thomas,

I’ve heard of producers experimenting with oak powder in fermenters to fix color and possibly round out less ripe flavors. In one case where I was able to taste samples from 1.5 ton fermentors with, if I recall correctly, 4oz and 8oz and none at all, I honestly didn’t find much difference. Perhaps a bit of color fixing from the addition. Certainly no “oaky” smell or flavor. I think the manufacturer would recommend larger additions, and perhaps that would change the hedonic results. Or maybe they just want you to buy more product.

Vincent

Thanks, Vincent. I suppose the answer to my question is that the powder simply isn’t too strong in flavor at the recommended dosage. Probably demands fining or filtration, though.

So much has changed since my days of antiquity in the cellar!

Thomas,

Actually, I think it just settles out in the gross lees. I haven’t been able to tell that a wine sample had oak powder added, when I’ve tried any.

By the way, your’s in the first “Idiot’s” book I’ve ever purchased. Good job.

Vincent