Oregon Wine Decoys

Just another thing to make the tasting room challenging. We’d never knowingly offer alcohol to minors, but sheesh.

“This notice is intended to inform you that as a licensee of the Oregon Liquor Control Commission (OLCC) your business is subject to a minor decoy visit without any further notice. OLCC and local law enforcement agencies may visit your business in an effort to measure your compliance with state liquor laws regarding checking identification and sales of alcohol to minors.

The OLCC and local law enforcement agencies may use people (minor decoys) under the age of 21 in an attempt to purchase alcohol from your business. Minor decoys will look under 26 years of age, will not lie about their age or use false identification. If a licensee or employee sells alcohol to a minor decoy, the seller is subject to administrative and/or criminal sanctions. Our goal is to help you and your employees prevent these illegal sales of alcohol to minors. If you and your staff would like training in checking identification, please call the OLCC office nearest you.”

Some colleagues added the following:

"The evening news had a piece on this last week about this and said they will be going to bars, restaurants, liquor stores, grocery stores, brewpubs and wineries.

I am aware of two shops on the beach that have been subject to decoys and both were either fined or had to close operations for a period of time in lieu of a big fine ($6,000). The decoys, while appearing young, will not look like young people trying to purchase alcohol. They look professional and “talk the talk”. They know what they’re talking about in regards to wine and will appear knowledgeable. Both instances that I am aware of, the individuals were dressed as professionals and did not appear to be under age."

The OLCC is impressively Draconian and devious. I’m no attorney but this whole decoy schtick has always smelled of entrapment to me.

Thanks, Jacki. I just printed this out to go over with my staff. Even though we’re not in OR, I think we’ll start seeing more of this soon, and of course it’s always good to review.

On Sunday of President’s weekend a guy drove up in a CDF truck and came in the winery, clipboard in hand and wanted permission to poke around. Carissa sent him upstairs to my office. “I’m here to do your annual occupancy review,” he said. “Annual?” I said. “Why then is this the first time we’ve seen you or heard of this in ten years?” “We’re a little in arrears,” he replied. Then he said he’d wait until customers left to poke around and look at the electric panel. When I was done laughing, I told him to just go ahead. Before he left, he mentioned that he was retiring soon and asked me for a job … I think with the recession hitting everyone pretty hard, there’s going to be lots of government make-work.

Yeah, the thing is, it isn’t that easy to judge age and I think we use all of our senses to do so. When I see someone who is professionally dressed, who knows wine and has the voice of experience, who comports him or herself as an older person, well, that’s part of the way I judge whether or not they’re under 26.

It’s not like we’re selling those flasks that got Claire’s in trouble or anything, to try to attract teenagers.

CBS Boston - Breaking News, Sports, Weather, I-Team Investigations" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In California, the law “states” that the decoy should not look or act in such a manner that they would be easily thought to be of age, i.e. full beard, tatted up, etc. I’ve heard complaints that some of the decoys could pass for 25 to 30 years old. Our only contact with a decoy was a young girl who looked like she was about 18 years old, no make up, levis and a ponytail. Before she walked in, a guy in a suit entered and walked straight into the humidor. Two others, casually dressed came in and walked in to the wine display area. The girl walked in, found the cheapest bottle of wine and walked to the counter without a word. Carrie and I looked at each other shaking our heads at the obvious setup. Carrie asked for her ID, she was seventeen, and Carrie asked her to come back in four years. I looked at Carrie, nodded towards the others and said they’re cops. One by one the others left smiling, without making a purchase. We followed them outside and watched them all enter stereotypical government vehicles. They all waved as they drove away. The following week we got an atta-boy letter. The same week, the carnage was listed. A couple 7-11 stores, a couple small groceries and one liquor store had sold to the decoy. That’s five businesses out of twenty eight attempts. A very poor average. [stop.gif]

We also have the distinction of putting up with the tobacco decoys also. Changing our license to on-sale has reduced the problems of underage people trying to by tobacco products because they get hit with are you 21 at the door. We get the occasional “I just want to get a cigar” or “you only have to be 18 to buy tobacco,” but for the most part the under aged have taken their ejection respectfully. We have more of a problem with adults trying to bring their children in. Big sign, NO ONE UNDER 21. They don’t see it or enter with the mind set they are in a retail store, not a bar. Some of them get real indignant.

Question: would a winery get fined for not carding someone who looks under 26, but is in fact of legal drinking age?

the ABC in CA runs a sting like this every 8-10 months. usually, the decoy comes in and goes directly to the shelf, grabs a bottle, and then walks to the bar to make a purchase, completely skipping the tasting. since this is atypical behavior in our TR, the red-flag goes up immediately…especially if they look on the young side.

recently, we had three people come in to taste: mother, daughter, and son-in-law. the kids looked young, and when i asked for her ID, she presents a Nevada ID card with a California address. having never seen this before, i politely refused to pour for her since i could not verify that it was a valid ID. she goes ballistic and demands i call the Nevada department of motor vehicles to sort the issue out. let’s just say they left in a huff after i told them no. i’m still not sure if that was some sort of sting operation, but the oddity of the whole thing leads me to believe i made the right call.

there’s also a pretty good networking system in Sonoma too. as soon as someone believes there’s a sting going on, the emails start flying around. within 10 minutes, the whole valley knows what’s going on.

Your tax dollars at work.

We used to get those sorts of letters from the city Police Department when I was a bartender. I believe once we got a response that one of my guys ‘passed’ and refused the entrapment kid properly. There just seems to be a lot more serious problems out there to allocated dollars to to me.

Crown Vics, dull colors, tiny hubcaps. Even without the gubbment plates, the whip antennas and the spotlights, those things might as well have neon signs that flash and say COP!

I can only speak for California…There are very stringent requirements for the under age decoy stings. They can look nothing like 21 years old, the younger they look the better. Usually we try to find the thinnest and smallest one we can get (most are police explorers or cadets). They cannot wear certain clothing, i.e. a UCLA sweatshirt, alcohol advertising clothing, etc. that way they don’t project anything that would make them look older by representation. They will not lie about their age and if asked will show valid ID to show you that they are under 21 (yes, people have actually looked at the real thing and still sold it to an under age decoy). Not always will someone accompany them into the store. Most often they enter it alone, try to buy, then leave. They are told not to engage in small talk…go in, try to buy, and get out. They will not try any tricks to buy something. So it’s not like the cops are entraping anyone here. These are kids that don’t look anything like 21 years old.

It’s sad that people bash the cops again for doing their jobs…if people would do their jobs by asking then these stings wouldn’t be necessary. But we all know of places when we were kids where one could buy alcohol under age at anytime, sadly they are out there and more of them than you think. These stings are really aimed at them. But still it usually comes down to lazy employees that don’t want to ask. I mean how hard is it to ask for an ID.

BTW,
underage drinking contributes to all kinds of other problems. DUI’s, vandalisms, fights, stabbings, shootings, etc. So it’s not a waste of tax payers money as many love to claim everytime someone gets in trouble for something THEY did wrong. now, where is that soapbox icon at

“Your tax dollars at work.”

Wrong’em boyo! This is a revenue EARNING thing. Those fines are very high and they often get four or five on an outing, grossing thousands of dollars in fines.

I go through this at our in store tastings every week. I flash a smile and say “Gee you don’t look your age, can I see some ID?”.

It sucks but not as bad as being busted by the ABC.

Speaking only for myself, I’m not bashing cops, I’m bashing methods and I’m bashing the OLCC, who are not cops but bureaucrats. Their policies are backward and their enforcement practices are Draconian. Hell, if it were me serving I’d probably ask everyone for ID, but decoys are entrapment in my book, and no different from you driving your Crown Vic Ride down the street at 45 in a 35 and ticketing the driver behind you for keeping up.

That said, this also branches into the ridiculous argument in favor of banning Interweb sales of wine on the theory that some kid would “borrow” his parents’ credit card and order wine from some small winery a month in advance because he intends to get drunk on April Fool’s Day. GMAFB.

I know of a law enforcement officer that bucked his departmental protocols to help wineries. His advice has saved small wineries tens of thousands of dollars in fraudulent wholesale orders. But, that was a guy that likes wine and appreciates the efforts of small winemakers. I’m sorry I can’t give him public recognition.

Hi, Andy:

I’m pretty sure you didn’t think I was bashing law enforcement, but I’ll say it just to be sure. I’m not.

I really don’t mind efforts to make sure teeny boppers aren’t going down to the 7-11 and stocking up on crap to get ripped. I don’t even mind if they send a minor into my tasting room to see if I’ll serve them. What I do mind, though, is them sending in someone who looks and acts the part of a borderline 26 year old, who walks the walk and talks the wine talk. IF that’s what’s going on, I think it’s entrapment. I mean, really, how many kids are going to target tasting rooms for their alcie high? Ridiculous.

Wanna hear something else ridiculous? We as servers are not allowed by statute to taste our wine before serving. Not at all, no swish and spit, no nothing. I have participated in charity events where we knew the OLCC would have enforcement folks checking, and were threatening to pull the event license and shut it down, if anyone was caught tasting. We have been forced to ask our customers to check for TCA or off flavors when we first open a bottle. It’s embarrassing and uncomfortable and, as I say, utterly ridiculous. But there ya’ go.

Bob,
In Cali the ABC has a sworn officer section that does these and they are armed officers…thus cops.

But still you neglect to put any blame on they cashier that failed to do their job…ask for ID. It ain’t that hard, it’s only two words “ID please” So you can think entrapement all you want, but it still comes down to lazy employees, or in some instances retailers that just don’t care how young they are and will sell them alcohol anyways. We may not like the laws, heck I don’t like them all either, but those are the rules and we gotta play by them. And in California it is quite rare for the ABC to revoke a liquor license. You gotta do some pretty crazy stuff for that to happen. You may not believe this but they actually operate on erring on the side of caution and letting most small things slide.


Jacki,
I’m not pointing fingers at anyone specifically. It’s just that threads like this always turn into the anti-government/cop thing. It just amazes me that people don’t say something like…“what a moron for not checking someones ID, they got caught and deserve it.” Instead it takes this slant of entrapment, out of control cops, yada yada yada. On some rare occassions I worked as a bartender at a friends bar and I ID everyone that didn’t look 50 years old. It wasn’t that hard and the older people actually liked being ID, guess it made them feel young

This isn’t what happens. Like I said the kids can’t look like they are over 21. I’ve seen cases tossed because the kid didn’t shave or had a shirt that “would be something someone over 21 would wear.” So the whole “he looked like he was 25” is more folk lore by upset people who got caught.

I totally agree…there are some stupid rules with all Alcohol Control Boards in every state. I don’t agree with them either and think a little common sense should prevail. But as we all know it only takes one to ruin it for all and that is why most of these stupid rules have come about. And the only way to enforce them is to be consistant. Unfortunitely that sometimes means people trying to do an honest event get stuck between a rock and a hard place (as we saw with Falltacular…that still pisses me off).

I’m sorry Andy, but bullshit. Unless you’ve been to Oregon lately, and unless you’re willing to call Jacki a liar, it’s EXACTLY what happens here - with all due respect to your occupation. California and Oregon are NOT the same and you need to bear that in mind.

Well, here’s what I posted in my original post, and it’s what really got me started.

“I am aware of two shops on the beach that have been subject to decoys and both were either fined or had to close operations for a period of time in lieu of a big fine ($6,000). The decoys, while appearing young, will not look like young people trying to purchase alcohol. They look professional and “talk the talk”. They know what they’re talking about in regards to wine and will appear knowledgeable. Both instances that I am aware of, the individuals were dressed as professionals and did not appear to be under age.”

I am quoting someone else here, and maybe it does fit into the realm of urban legend, dunno, but as I said IF this is what’s going on, I think even you’d agree it crosses a line, yes?

As to whether it’s difficult or not to ask for ID, well, it is an annoyance to our customers to have to pull out their ID, and I’d prefer not to annoy them. It’s as simple as that.

Sounds like the Oregon Wine Board needs to get off their ass and do some hard negotiating and community PR on behalf of their membership. Also, how ‘tied in’ to law enforcement is the liquor commission? Is it possible the LCC is acting somewhat arbitrarily? Do the OWB and OLCC sponsor classes for winery employees on how to read and accpet ID’s, and what the most common ID scams are?

And by the way, I think it’s pretty awesome that we have a law enforcement specialist on the board. Thanks for your input, Andy.