Why do you use oak?

This is a question for each winemaker that chooses to answer…

Why do you use oak?

To add flavor?
To enhance texture?
To soften hard edges?
Because you’re supposed to?

For red wines…what keeps you from doing stainless/concrete/inert aging?

Soften tannins. Also neutral barrels are easy to work with and are inexpensive.

I’ve never made red wine in stainless but I’ve made a lot in carboys and it just takes too long for the wine to soften unless it’s a very light wine.

Yep. Soften tannins. We’ve done a few where a portion was done in stainless to retain brightness, then blended with the half or more done in neutral oak.

If using new barrels its to increase tannin profile for the new remond MTL’s I use. I also use stems in PN to add some stem wood tannin. Most use new oak to add flavor as you only really get flavor the first use. Barrels as a aging vessel in general are a great way darken and richen a wine. The water and alcohol that evaporates thru the wood is replaced with toping wine to make up for the loss. Thus the wine is gaining in depth as all the good stuff gets concentrated. Think slow reduction sauce type thing.

I did a unoaked PN in 2013 that we just released its very light bright and fruity, almost more like a heavy rose. Overall reds and stainless can get reductive if not mirco oxed or splash racked often.

I do not understand why anyone would use concrete. There are so many nasty chemicals in that stuff I don’t see how its approved for food grade use. Its claimed to breathe a little. I would rather use the food grade breathable plastics like flex tank personally.

I have to say I hated flex tanks. The way the lids/tops are engineered it was somewhere between hard and impossible to keep it all the way topped up. The lid wasn’t flat on the bottom. There was always a small airspace that one had to try and keep filled with co2. And the hole at the top didn’t take a regular barrel bung. All in all a pain in the rear. Whomever designed these has never made wine Im pretty sure. Perhaps there was an accessory to buy that makes this easier but that would be annoying too that they don’t “work” out of the box. Whenever I see them in wineries I always see them partially filled with co2 in the airspace.

The first generation left something to be desired. The newer ones are much better. When I seal them up I pressure test them when I am sparging them with inert gas and don’t seem to have an issue getting them set up right. The new collars are better as well. Anyway I got them for settling post basket pressing (overnight 12 hours) and bottling (24-48 hours) and they work very well for those purposes. I did age the unoaked PN in one for 10-11 months and had no issues getting a good seal, holding so2, or having non elevating VA. The wine did not settle very well though so its got a good dose of sediment visible to all as it was bottled in clear glass. However they are easier to store and much less expensive than stainless, qpr at its finest for winery supplies. The 2 stainless tanks I have (330 and 550 gallon) I do love but dam do they hit you in the pocket book (5-8 times more $ and not very discounted used) for use a dozen or so days of the year.

That makes sense. I tried to use them in place of barrels for elevage of red wine. My childish “no oak” phase is over :wink:

Joe,
I agree with what you are saying generally. The part in bold, I’d question a bit in terms of cause and effect. I have seen home winemakers that top with water and tracked how much the wine concentrates as well. It seems to concentrate just as much or nearly so if the wine is topped with water or wine. Tannin chains develop as the wine is exposed to a very low rate of O2. I propose that the changes in tannin are the main reason for the concentration that we both notice.

The lid is designed that way to eliminate air. Flat lids in VC stainless tanks always have bubbles or you make a mess getting them out. I fill mine about two thirds fulls then install the lid. Then fill to the top with only a tiny bit of space for expansion. There’s never enough space to mess with gas. I only have the Dexter lids so I don’t know about the 6" screw cap version. I prefer my Flextanks to stainless steel. They are much more durable, easier for a one person to move around, and do a much better job of excluding air. In my case, whites only, reds go into barrels. I don’t know the mechanism but I greatly prefer reds aged in neutral barrels to those aged in stainless for topping. Not even close IMO. One thing that I have noticed is that contrary to common theory, I see no real difference in angel’s share on old barrel vs. new. Once the initial soak up of a new barrel is done that is.

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Lots of experiences tell me otherwise. Second and third use barrels impart flavor. I’ve tasted wines with zero new oak that have very noticeable oak flavor.

Ive smelled/tasted the water used to rehydrate 5 year old barrels and its crazy how much oak aromas and flavors they still have. Maple/vanilla flavors seem to be the first to leach out but the spice and woody components are still there somewhat. Now that Im thinking about it Im thinking that char components leach out to a large degree with first use but Im less sure about that.



I know there are some variables, like toast (heavier toast seems to continue to show it self a couple vintages out), duration in barrel (lots of wineries do 8-9 months in barrel and those barrels seem to have more oak effect after first use or those who do 16-18 months which have less effect on later vintages).

Ive also made wine in the past with 6-12 year barrels that professional reviewers noted oak flavors they loved. A winery up here that is all 4+ year old oak got reviews stating oak flavors and that winemaker even when in a blind tasting noted oak flavors on his wine. I think oak is a complex thing and due to the fact that so few people get to taste unoaked, neutral, 2nd fill, new versions of their favorite wine its hard to separate out what oak really tastes like in a given wine. There must be something to vintage, vineyard, time on skins, if stems are included, etc. that has a similar effect not to mention the oaks influence on oxygen/acid/tannin in a wine.

I should have elaborated a bit more. In my cellar using Remond MTL barrels from 3 forests I see 75-85% of the flavor on the first use. After that its very hard to detect any noticeable flavor and I believe that to be my use of stems on PN and total time on skins averaging 21-24 days with no temperature adjustments pressing at cap fall. For the wines I use new oak on the more stems I use the less new oak I use and to a lesser degree the smaller the berries and/thicker the skins the less new oak I use. The basket press seems to be the great equalizer for getting desired tannin from a variation of berries sizes and skin thickness. I explain it this way in the tasting room, think tea, steep a packet for 2 minutes in a cup then take that packet into another cup for 2 minutes and so on. The first glass gets you most of the flavor, color, tannin. Successive glasses given less until there is no more flavor to extract.

A couple years back I did take the head off a 6-7 year old barrel I was not going to use and fermented some excess PN in it. The barrel ferment had a wood smell to it but the wine did not taste any different than its counterpart done in Tbin. I assume the heat and gas and moisture released some woody smelling compounds.

" total time on skins averaging 21-24 days with no temperature adjustments pressing at cap fall."

How do you get that to happen? With no temp adjustment even starting native my ferments usually have cap fall about day 7-8.
Ian

I think mainly its due to the whole clusters I put in the bottom of the T-bins. The few I have done without any whole clusters are done in 17-19 days. The fruit does come in early am and is usually mid 40’s after sorting. Bubbles start in a day or 2 and I let them come up to temperature on their own. No adjustments are made with the exception of acid as needed, I have 2 blocks that often need adjustment. All native ferments.

It seems that in vintages when I use less than 30% whole clusters (10% minnium) harvest is later with lower ambient temperatures and the stems are not as ripe. In vintages where I use more than 30% whole clusters (50% maximum) harvest is earlier and ambient temps are greater and stems are riper. I only measure cap temperature to track how things are progressing. I run the ventilation fan 24/7 when fermenting, usually we just use it for night time ventilation/cooling for the cellar. The whole clusters seem to be little time release capsules of sugar to the ferment. I start with one punchdown a day then when temps get into the mid 70’s got to 2 a day then from mid 80’s to peak of 92-95* I go to 3 a day. I follow the same protocol as they cool back down. When I get to the last few days doing 1 punchdown I make sure to tap the bottom of the fermentor as to try and break every last whole grape.