The Bourbon Thread

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Scott Butler · #1 Post by **Scott Butler** » March 23rd, 2010, 7:13 pm

What are you drinking, what do you like? Oh, and let me clarify - it doesn't have to "just" be the legal definition of bourbon, but the style. I'd like to exclude scotch and Irish Whisky - which to me are very different.

My favorites right now:

Basil Hayden (8 yr) $39
Russell's Reserve (10 yr - made by Wild Turkey) $25
Eagle Rare (10 yr) $29
Gentleman Jack $26

I saw Jack Daniel's Single Barrel for $39 recently, any thoughts?
Anyone ever try Booker's? Saw some crazy good reviews, but 120+ proof. YIKES!

These one's I always drink on the rocks, or am willing to make the occasional Manhattan. But when i want a whiskey/coke, I am never unhappy with Jack Daniel or Jim Beam.

What say you?

Sean Reed · #2 Post by **Sean Reed** » March 23rd, 2010, 9:13 pm

Scott Butler wrote:What are you drinking, what do you like? Oh, and let me clarify - it doesn't have to "just" be the legal definition of bourbon, but the style. I'd like to exclude scotch and Irish Whisky - which to me are very different.

My favorites right now:

Basil Hayden (8 yr) $39
Russell's Reserve (10 yr - made by Wild Turkey) $25
Eagle Rare (10 yr) $29
Gentleman Jack $26

I saw Jack Daniel's Single Barrel for $39 recently, any thoughts?
Anyone ever try Booker's? Saw some crazy good reviews, but 120+ proof. YIKES!

These one's I always drink on the rocks, or am willing to make the occasional Manhattan. But when i want a whiskey/coke, I am never unhappy with Jack Daniel or Jim Beam.

What say you?

Jack Single Barrel is good but for the money Blantons is better!

Bookers needs to be cut with water to make it drinkable! Good if cut, dame near impossible to drink straight!

#3 Post by **Phillip F r a n k s** » March 23rd, 2010, 11:00 pm

Gents, I really can't comment now but please keep this thread alive until tomorrow. There are at least a dozen great Bourbons in the $30 range. None are listed above.

Old Fitzgerald
Elmer T. Lee
Buffalo Trace
Four Roses
Hirsch
Jefferson's
Wellers
Rock Hill Farm
Virginia Gentleman

to name a few...

#4 Post by **Brian G r a f s t r o m** » March 24th, 2010, 12:51 am

I'm surprised this thread doesn't start and end with A.H. Hirsch 16 yr. Reserve. I am eternally pissed at myself for not buying a case of this a decade ago when the price was a fraction of what it is now. As it currently stands, it is waaaay out of my price level, so I just stick with Scotch, which has always been my preference anyways ... still, there's something special about the A.H. ... {sigh}

Scott Butler · #5 Post by **Scott Butler** » March 24th, 2010, 5:40 am

Off to a good start...keep the rec's coming!

I do have to say, I've leardned a lot in the past 2 years on beer and spirits. My wife is finishing up grad school and my wine budget is in the crapper until she gets back to work - so I have been buying and trying a lot of things "other than wine" in that time frame. Lots of great beers have been discovered, and now the bourbons are taking center stage.

As a youngster (college age), I cut my teeth on Jack and Jim, and bourbon has always been my preference.

Scott Butler · #6 Post by **Scott Butler** » March 24th, 2010, 5:44 am

Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote:I'm surprised this thread doesn't start and end with A.H. Hirsch 16 yr. Reserve. I am eternally pissed at myself for not buying a case of this a decade ago when the price was a fraction of what it is now. As it currently stands, it is waaaay out of my price level, so I just stick with Scotch, which has always been my preference anyways ... still, there's something special about the A.H. ... {sigh}

Look that one up.....oh my word $275-$350! Seems that one will have to wait.

Scott Butler · #7 Post by **Scott Butler** » March 24th, 2010, 5:46 am

Phillip Franks wrote:Gents, I really can't comment now but please keep this thread alive until tomorrow. There are at least a dozen great Bourbons in the $30 range. None are listed above.

Old Fitzgerald
Elmer T. Lee
Buffalo Trace
Four Roses
Hirsch
Jefferson's
Wellers
Rock Hill Farm
Virginia Gentleman

to name a few...

Better than my suggestions and in the $30 range....I will be patiently waiting on your detailed response.

B Stucker · #8 Post by **B Stucker** » March 24th, 2010, 6:46 am

I am about halfway through my second bottle of Bookers. I use a little more ice in there than I do with others, and give it a little melt time, as it needs it to cut through the heat. But it is a very good.

My more standard bourbons are the Knob Creek, which has a nice sweetness if you like that, and Woodford reserve. But I also like the Jefferson's Reserve when I can find it for a good price.

Sean Reed · #9 Post by **Sean Reed** » March 24th, 2010, 7:03 am

B Stucker wrote:I am about halfway through my second bottle of Bookers. I use a little more ice in there than I do with others, and give it a little melt time, as it needs it to cut through the heat. But it is a very good.

My more standard bourbons are the Knob Creek, which has a nice sweetness if you like that, and Woodford reserve. But I also like the Jefferson's Reserve when I can find it for a good price.

Knob Creek is my house Bourbon! Can pick it up for $25 a liter in Mexico duty free!

#10 Post by **Greg Pierce** » March 24th, 2010, 9:14 am

Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote:I'm surprised this thread doesn't start and end with A.H. Hirsch 16 yr. Reserve. I am eternally pissed at myself for not buying a case of this a decade ago when the price was a fraction of what it is now. As it currently stands, it is waaaay out of my price level, so I just stick with Scotch, which has always been my preference anyways ... still, there's something special about the A.H. ... {sigh}

I did pick up a case about a decade ago. Also picked up a couple cases of the A.H. Hirsch 20 yr old (I prefer the 20 to the 16). The 16 y.o. ran out a couple years ago. I'm down to the last bottle of the 20 y.o. I'm still kicking myself for not buying every damn bottle in town when I had the chance.

As to what's out there now, I like the Pappy Van Winkle 18 y.o. (good but pricey, the 23 y.o. isn't worth the freight) and Four Roses is a recent discovery.

#11 Post by **John Osburn** » March 24th, 2010, 10:09 am

Currently going with Buffalo Trace for cocktails or with soda and Elijah Craig 18 yo to sip.

Scott Butler · #12 Post by **Scott Butler** » March 25th, 2010, 10:56 am

Here is my list of what has been discussed, and what I could find locally. Underlined = haven't found it yet. Now I need to get some and start trying!

Basil Hayden (8 yr) $39 (got it)
Blanton's $44
Booker's
Buffalo Trace $55 (1.75L)
Eagle Rare (10 yr) $29 (got it)
Elijah Craig (found the 12 yr)
Elmer T. Lee
Four Roses
Gentleman Jack $26 (got it)
AH Hirsch
Jack Daniel's Single Barrel $37
Jefferson's Reserve $55
Knob Creek $29
Old Fitzgerald
Rock Hill Farm
Russell's Reserve (10 yr) $25 (got it)
Virginia Gentleman $22 (1.5L)
Wellers $16
Woodford Reserve $27

Scott Butler · #13 Post by **Scott Butler** » March 25th, 2010, 11:08 am

Anyone ever try Pendleton? It is a Canadian Whisky but I was told it is bourbon-like and quite good.

#14 Post by **Brian G r a f s t r o m** » March 25th, 2010, 11:08 am

you forgot Pappy Van Winkle

Scott Butler · #15 Post by **Scott Butler** » March 25th, 2010, 11:10 am

Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote:you forgot Pappy Van Winkle

Good catch!

Sean Reed · #16 Post by **Sean Reed** » March 25th, 2010, 12:44 pm

Scott Butler wrote:
Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote:you forgot Pappy Van Winkle
Good catch!

Pappy 20 year is the best Bourbon I have EVER had, and I like bourbon damn near as much as I do wine!

#17 Post by **Brett Johnson** » March 25th, 2010, 1:08 pm

Lately...

Elmer T Lee
Four Roses Single Barrel

#18 Post by **dcornutt** » March 25th, 2010, 5:25 pm

The best..

Pappy Van Winkle

The 23 is optimal. The Romanee Conti of Bourbon's.
The 20 is fab.

Well above $30 but you will see the difference I can assure you.

All the others including the wonderful single barrel Jack Daniels are pretenders.

#19 Post by **Phillip F r a n k s** » March 25th, 2010, 5:32 pm

I didn't realize we were talking about the high end here.

On that note I also love the 18yr Sazerac, 17yr Eagle Rare, 19yr W.L. Weller, and George T. Stagg.

If you can somehow find a bottle of the Blue Wax top Hirsch it's mind bending.

#20 Post by **dcornutt** » March 25th, 2010, 5:34 pm

Phillip Franks wrote: If you can somehow find a bottle of the Blue Wax top Hirsch it's mind bending.

Where did you find it Phil?
Your Hirsch Blue Top and my Pappy 23.
That would be a nice couple of drams to explore.
Hope all is well in the OC.

#21 Post by **Phillip F r a n k s** » March 25th, 2010, 5:46 pm

My roommate from Iraq is a huge Bourbon nut and found a few in some crusty liquor store in Texas I think.

Scott Butler · #22 Post by **Scott Butler** » March 25th, 2010, 6:46 pm

Phillip Franks wrote:I didn't realize we were talking about the high end here.

.

The high end is fine - but I personally am looking for sub $60 recommendations for now. But all recommendations are a-ok.

#23 Post by **dcornutt** » March 25th, 2010, 6:52 pm

Scott Butler wrote:
Phillip Franks wrote:I didn't realize we were talking about the high end here.

.

The high end is fine - but I personally am looking for sub $60 recommendations for now. But all recommendations are a-ok.

At that price, single barrel Jack is tough to beat.

Scott Butler · #24 Post by **Scott Butler** » March 25th, 2010, 7:09 pm

dcornutt wrote:
Scott Butler wrote:
Phillip Franks wrote:I didn't realize we were talking about the high end here.

.

The high end is fine - but I personally am looking for sub $60 recommendations for now. But all recommendations are a-ok.
At that price, single barrel Jack is tough to beat.

Really? Ok - good to know. I think my next couple are JD SB, Booker's, and Blanton's. I know I can get them all, and I need to try them.

#25 Post by **Brent C l a y t o n** » March 25th, 2010, 7:35 pm

Scott Butler wrote:
Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote:I'm surprised this thread doesn't start and end with A.H. Hirsch 16 yr. Reserve. I am eternally pissed at myself for not buying a case of this a decade ago when the price was a fraction of what it is now. As it currently stands, it is waaaay out of my price level, so I just stick with Scotch, which has always been my preference anyways ... still, there's something special about the A.H. ... {sigh}
Look that one up.....oh my word $275-$350! Seems that one will have to wait.

Used to drink it all day long for $39.99...

#26 Post by **Brian G r a f s t r o m** » March 25th, 2010, 11:52 pm

Brent Clayton wrote:
Scott Butler wrote:
Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote:I'm surprised this thread doesn't start and end with A.H. Hirsch 16 yr. Reserve. I am eternally pissed at myself for not buying a case of this a decade ago when the price was a fraction of what it is now. As it currently stands, it is waaaay out of my price level, so I just stick with Scotch, which has always been my preference anyways ... still, there's something special about the A.H. ... {sigh}
Look that one up.....oh my word $275-$350! Seems that one will have to wait.

Used to drink it all day long for $39.99...

you're dating yourself, brent.

Scott Butler · #27 Post by **Scott Butler** » March 26th, 2010, 10:00 am

Sean Reed wrote:
Scott Butler wrote:What are you drinking, what do you like? Oh, and let me clarify - it doesn't have to "just" be the legal definition of bourbon, but the style. I'd like to exclude scotch and Irish Whisky - which to me are very different.

My favorites right now:

Basil Hayden (8 yr) $39
Russell's Reserve (10 yr - made by Wild Turkey) $25
Eagle Rare (10 yr) $29
Gentleman Jack $26

I saw Jack Daniel's Single Barrel for $39 recently, any thoughts?
Anyone ever try Booker's? Saw some crazy good reviews, but 120+ proof. YIKES!

These one's I always drink on the rocks, or am willing to make the occasional Manhattan. But when i want a whiskey/coke, I am never unhappy with Jack Daniel or Jim Beam.

What say you?
Jack Single Barrel is good but for the money Blantons is better!

Bookers needs to be cut with water to make it drinkable! Good if cut, dame near impossible to drink straight!

Based on your comment, plus this review - I picked up the Blanton's. Looking forward to trying it.

http://www.boysofbourbon.com/category/reviews/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"The name is Blanton’s but it should be called “The Best,” that is self explanatory. This perfectly selected single barrel bourbon has the perfect amount of wood, the perfect kick, with a perfect combination of bite and hint of vanilla at the finish. That might be alot of perfects, but that is just this bourbon. On top of brown goodness inside, this is bourbon is bottled, bagged and labeled by hand in a style fit for a king or kingpin. At 93 proof, I prefer mine with a little ice and a splash of water, but its never too much to keep in your flask. If you like bourbon, this pony will make a lover out of you. Go baby go Blanton’s."

Sean Reed · #28 Post by **Sean Reed** » March 26th, 2010, 10:07 am

Scott Butler wrote:
Sean Reed wrote:
Scott Butler wrote:What are you drinking, what do you like? Oh, and let me clarify - it doesn't have to "just" be the legal definition of bourbon, but the style. I'd like to exclude scotch and Irish Whisky - which to me are very different.

My favorites right now:

Basil Hayden (8 yr) $39
Russell's Reserve (10 yr - made by Wild Turkey) $25
Eagle Rare (10 yr) $29
Gentleman Jack $26

I saw Jack Daniel's Single Barrel for $39 recently, any thoughts?
Anyone ever try Booker's? Saw some crazy good reviews, but 120+ proof. YIKES!

These one's I always drink on the rocks, or am willing to make the occasional Manhattan. But when i want a whiskey/coke, I am never unhappy with Jack Daniel or Jim Beam.

What say you?
Jack Single Barrel is good but for the money Blantons is better!

Bookers needs to be cut with water to make it drinkable! Good if cut, dame near impossible to drink straight!
Based on your comment, plus this review - I picked up the Blanton's. Looking forward to trying it.

http://www.boysofbourbon.com/category/reviews/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"The name is Blanton’s but it should be called “The Best,” that is self explanatory. This perfectly selected single barrel bourbon has the perfect amount of wood, the perfect kick, with a perfect combination of bite and hint of vanilla at the finish. That might be alot of perfects, but that is just this bourbon. On top of brown goodness inside, this is bourbon is bottled, bagged and labeled by hand in a style fit for a king or kingpin. At 93 proof, I prefer mine with a little ice and a splash of water, but its never too much to keep in your flask. If you like bourbon, this pony will make a lover out of you. Go baby go Blanton’s."

lOOKING FORWARD TO HEARING WHAT YOU THINK

#29 Post by **Brent C l a y t o n** » March 26th, 2010, 11:01 am

Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote:
Brent Clayton wrote:
Scott Butler wrote: Look that one up.....oh my word $275-$350! Seems that one will have to wait.

Used to drink it all day long for $39.99...
you're dating yourself, brent.

Brian,

That was barely 10 years ago!

I have heard that Preiss Imports is trying to buy up the rest of the Hirsch 16 that they can find so they can rebottle it in a fancy crystal decanter and sell it for even more money.

#30 Post by **Brian G r a f s t r o m** » March 26th, 2010, 12:40 pm

Brent Clayton wrote:
Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote:
Brent Clayton wrote:
Used to drink it all day long for $39.99...
you're dating yourself, brent.
Brian,

That was barely 10 years ago!

I have heard that Preiss Imports is trying to buy up the rest of the Hirsch 16 that they can find so they can rebottle it in a fancy crystal decanter and sell it for even more money.

according to their website, it looks like they did. http://www.hirschbourbon.com/

I wish I would have been shopping where you were 10 years ago. 10 years ago, in Ann Arbor, MI, A.H. 16 was about $65, iirc.

Shawn Battagler · #31 Post by **Shawn Battagler** » March 26th, 2010, 1:12 pm

Pappy Van Winkle is a great one.
If you don't want to spend that much, the Buffalo Trace is really great. Woodford Reserve is an excellent value.

Peter C. · #32 Post by **Peter C.** » March 26th, 2010, 1:15 pm

Guys - if you like Pappy 20 year, check out Black Maple Hill.

http://www.klwines.com/detail.asp?sku=1 ... Googlebase" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The nose isn't as complex/deep as the Pappy and the finish doesn't last an hour like the 20 yr, but for a little less than half the price of the 20 year, it's a hell of a bourbon.

Get a lot of the same toffee/caramel/sweetness, just not the depth.

Scott Butler · #33 Post by **Scott Butler** » March 26th, 2010, 4:55 pm

Sean Reed wrote:
Scott Butler wrote:
Sean Reed wrote: Jack Single Barrel is good but for the money Blantons is better!

Bookers needs to be cut with water to make it drinkable! Good if cut, dame near impossible to drink straight!
Based on your comment, plus this review - I picked up the Blanton's. Looking forward to trying it.

http://www.boysofbourbon.com/category/reviews/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"The name is Blanton’s but it should be called “The Best,” that is self explanatory. This perfectly selected single barrel bourbon has the perfect amount of wood, the perfect kick, with a perfect combination of bite and hint of vanilla at the finish. That might be alot of perfects, but that is just this bourbon. On top of brown goodness inside, this is bourbon is bottled, bagged and labeled by hand in a style fit for a king or kingpin. At 93 proof, I prefer mine with a little ice and a splash of water, but its never too much to keep in your flask. If you like bourbon, this pony will make a lover out of you. Go baby go Blanton’s."
lOOKING FORWARD TO HEARING WHAT YOU THINK

Man, this Blanton's is smooth. Tons of smoky caramel flavor, no need to cut it despite 93 proof - just an ice cube to get it barely under room temp - and it is rockin!

PS - pretty fancy packaging

#34 Post by **dcornutt** » March 27th, 2010, 5:35 am

Peter C. wrote:Guys - if you like Pappy 20 year, check out Black Maple Hill.

http://www.klwines.com/detail.asp?sku=1 ... Googlebase" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The nose isn't as complex/deep as the Pappy and the finish doesn't last an hour like the 20 yr, but for a little less than half the price of the 20 year, it's a hell of a bourbon.

Get a lot of the same toffee/caramel/sweetness, just not the depth.

Thanks Peter.

As an aside, I find Blanton's almost over the top sweet for some reason.
This sweetness doesn't seem as intense in the Pappy or even in the single Barrel Jack.
Maybe just me.
It is a very fine Bourbon for sure.

Scott Butler · #35 Post by **Scott Butler** » March 27th, 2010, 10:46 am

dcornutt wrote:
Peter C. wrote:Guys - if you like Pappy 20 year, check out Black Maple Hill.

http://www.klwines.com/detail.asp?sku=1 ... Googlebase" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The nose isn't as complex/deep as the Pappy and the finish doesn't last an hour like the 20 yr, but for a little less than half the price of the 20 year, it's a hell of a bourbon.

Get a lot of the same toffee/caramel/sweetness, just not the depth.
Thanks Peter.

As an aside, I find Blanton's almost over the top sweet for some reason.
This sweetness doesn't seem as intense in the Pappy or even in the single Barrel Jack.
Maybe just me.
It is a very fine Bourbon for sure.

I perceive a very slight sweetness in the Blanton's - but not that much and I find it to have good balance with the other components. I like it.

Speaking of sweetness...did you see the one bourbon on the site Peter C was mentioning? Aged in d'Yquem Sauternes barrels - now THAT probably has some sweetness to it! Here it is...

http://www.klwines.com/detail.asp?sku=1054821" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Al Osterheld · #36 Post by **Al Osterheld** » March 27th, 2010, 7:56 pm

That's a Scotch that Dave Tong mentioned a few weeks ago on the Scotch thread. I picked one up today, but haven't tasted it yet.

-Al

Scott Butler · #37 Post by **Scott Butler** » March 28th, 2010, 9:05 am

Look at this event - I am signing up for this ASAP. Beer, Bourbon, and Barbecue!

http://www.beerandbourbon.com/north-carolina/drink-menu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Bob Summers · #38 Post by **Bob Summers** » March 31st, 2010, 2:37 am

Scott Butler wrote: Look that one up.....oh my word $275-$350! Seems that one will have to wait.

Wow, who knew? I guess I should stop using it for pan sauces.

#39 Post by **Cris Whetstone** » March 31st, 2010, 10:07 am

Damn Bob! That's good stuff. Not a bourbon drinker?

Bob Summers · #40 Post by **Bob Summers** » March 31st, 2010, 11:39 am

Cris Whetstone wrote:Damn Bob! That's good stuff. Not a bourbon drinker?

Not regularly and obviously not current on pricing. My other bottle is Basil Hayden 8. I brought the bottle of Hirsch a number of years ago and brought it as a joke to a "Hirsch" tasting (the vineyard).

Scott Butler · #41 Post by **Scott Butler** » April 4th, 2010, 6:17 pm

Drinking Booker's right now - dang this has a nice finish. Critical that you cut it to your taste though, it is a beast at 128.4 proof!!! I went 2:1 bourbon:water and then added 2 ice cubes. Perfect.

Mel Hill · #42 Post by **Mel Hill** » April 4th, 2010, 6:23 pm

dipping my toe in the whiskeypool with a bottle of Buffalo Trace so far very nice

Scott Butler · #43 Post by **Scott Butler** » April 4th, 2010, 6:44 pm

Mel Hill wrote:dipping my toe in the whiskeypool with a bottle of Buffalo Trace so far very nice

On my list of one's to try.

Mel Hill · #44 Post by **Mel Hill** » April 4th, 2010, 6:52 pm

Scott Butler wrote:
Mel Hill wrote:dipping my toe in the whiskeypool with a bottle of Buffalo Trace so far very nice
On my list of one's to try.

more stuff going on then the makers mark I've been drinking...
might buy a pappy's 20 from my buddy craig b. right around $90ish
is that a OK price?

Sean Reed · #45 Post by **Sean Reed** » April 4th, 2010, 8:23 pm

Mel Hill wrote:
Scott Butler wrote:
Mel Hill wrote:dipping my toe in the whiskeypool with a bottle of Buffalo Trace so far very nice
On my list of one's to try.
more stuff going on then the makers mark I've been drinking...
might buy a pappy's 20 from my buddy craig b. right around $90ish
is that a OK price?

Mel, That price sounds pretty good! I think I paid$60 for the last bottle I bought a few years ago

#46 Post by **Terence T-Bone Livingston** » April 5th, 2010, 10:41 am

I found Buffalo Trace for $19.99 and Eagle Rare 10 yr for $24.99 at Wine Exchange.

No brainer there. Always drink these on the rocks with a twist. Wait for the ice to melt juuuuuuust the right amount.

B Stucker · #47 Post by **B Stucker** » April 5th, 2010, 10:47 am

Scott Butler wrote:Drinking Booker's right now - dang this has a nice finish. Critical that you cut it to your taste though, it is a beast at 128.4 proof!!! I went 2:1 bourbon:water and then added 2 ice cubes. Perfect.

Yep.

Scott Butler · #48 Post by **Scott Butler** » April 5th, 2010, 11:53 am

B Stucker wrote:
Scott Butler wrote:Drinking Booker's right now - dang this has a nice finish. Critical that you cut it to your taste though, it is a beast at 128.4 proof!!! I went 2:1 bourbon:water and then added 2 ice cubes. Perfect.
Yep.

Glad you approve.

#49 Post by **Brian G r a f s t r o m** » April 7th, 2010, 2:00 am

Bob Summers wrote:
Scott Butler wrote: Look that one up.....oh my word $275-$350! Seems that one will have to wait.
Wow, who knew? I guess I should stop using it for pan sauces.

Bob!!

jebus, i hope you are kidding!! i don't know if i should cry, laugh, or get in my vehicle to come slap you around

#50 Post by **Brett Johnson** » April 7th, 2010, 10:04 am

Enjoyed some new ones over the weekend in NYC:

Blanton's - definitely quality stuff with a nice balance of sweetness, oak and bite though I wasn't floored.

(ri) - made by Jim Beam, I had it neat before the bartender made my manhattan. Very slick looking bottle with "ultra premium" labeled on the bottle which means nothing. A very agreeable and smooth rye, but too tame. Apparently, it retails at around $50; that's pricey and I'd be much happier with Rittenhouse, Sazerac or Old Overholt at half the price.