Critical of the Critics - 2004 & 2011 Red Burgundy

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Peter C.
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Critical of the Critics - 2004 & 2011 Red Burgundy

#51 Post by Peter C. » November 22nd, 2013, 1:36 pm

Kevin Shin wrote:I personal buy any highly allocated wines year in and year out. The rest, I would only buy from the vintages that I like. I bought a lot of the 09s and only half of that in the 08 and the 10, due to price and availability. I only bought 8 bottles of the 11 reds. I didn’t get fourrier and dujac allocation.

The critics usually taste in barrel and it appears as GM doesn’t show at this stage. I also think that some of the critics scores are quite predictable. I am not disagreeing but just not much help making buying a decision.

e.g. Gevery commune, the baseline is

Bourgogne 87 points
Village 90 points
1er 92 points
1er CSJ 94 points
Chambertin and CdB 95 points

Then, vintage quality +-2

Producer +3, -2
This is an entirely different reason to be critical of the critics, but I agree with you.
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#52 Post by paul hanna » November 22nd, 2013, 4:16 pm

Paul H Galli wrote:
paul hanna wrote: In '07, I just see an underripe chemical greeness to many wines.
Totally different thing to GM.
I appears you haven't tasted the 2007 Volnays.
Many of them are quite special....

TTT
Yes,

Correct. I have only had the two Pousse d'Ors, and they didn't thrill me at all, sorry to say.

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#53 Post by Nick Gangas » November 22nd, 2013, 4:50 pm

Charlie Fu wrote:
Nick Gangas wrote:Well back to my original point. It seems that a handful of people declare catastrophe and everyone is running for the lifeboats. Many more people who also have a lot of experience tasting are saying not. I personally have not tried any 11s yet so can't give a personal note.

Also I must say I have to question the ladybug thing. It doesn't make sense to me that they come out of nowhere every 7 years like a plague and infect every vineyard in Burgundy. In fact the more Panzer speaks the more sense he makes. Now I'm really scared ! :-)
ladybugs are taking over the world nick.
Thanks. That made me laugh.

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#54 Post by Paul H Galli » November 22nd, 2013, 9:00 pm

paul hanna wrote:
Paul H Galli wrote:
paul hanna wrote: In '07, I just see an underripe chemical greeness to many wines.
Totally different thing to GM.
I appears you haven't tasted the 2007 Volnays.
Many of them are quite special....

TTT
Yes,

Correct. I have only had the two Pousse d'Ors, and they didn't thrill me at all, sorry to say.
I assume that you haven't tried the Pousse "60 degrees", because if you don't like that, well....

TTT
Opinot, not Oporto...

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#55 Post by paul hanna » November 22nd, 2013, 10:20 pm

Paul H Galli wrote:
I assume that you haven't tried the Pousse "60 degrees", because if you don't like that, well....

TTT
Nope, funnily enough the one I haven't tried.

If I see one, I will give it a go....

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#56 Post by Martin Steinley » November 22nd, 2013, 10:39 pm

Craig Gleason wrote:
Martin Steinley wrote:if I used the time that I spent doing so practicing law, I would be far ahead financially
Our wives might be happier if you stuck to law, too.
Mine only made me promise that I wouldn't lose money. However, I didn't expect all of this hand wringing and the sleepless nights over ladybugs.
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#57 Post by Craig G » November 22nd, 2013, 10:52 pm

Martin Steinley wrote:
Craig Gleason wrote:
Martin Steinley wrote:if I used the time that I spent doing so practicing law, I would be far ahead financially
Our wives might be happier if you stuck to law, too.
Mine only made me promise that I wouldn't lose money. However, I didn't expect all of this hand wringing and the sleepless nights over ladybugs.
Sleep tight. :o
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#58 Post by PCLIN » November 23rd, 2013, 1:14 am

paul hanna wrote:
Paul H Galli wrote:
I assume that you haven't tried the Pousse "60 degrees", because if you don't like that, well....

TTT
Nope, funnily enough the one I haven't tried.

If I see one, I will give it a go....
Just had a delicious 96' Pousse "60 degrees" for lunch today, showing better than some of 96' Grand Crus.
Chiu Lin

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#59 Post by Robert Panzer » November 23rd, 2013, 11:28 pm

60 degrees of separation.....
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#60 Post by Bill Klapp (deactivated) » November 24th, 2013, 12:45 am

Jonathan Favre wrote:Post here guys with solid tastings of '11s if you can - http://www.wineberserkers.com/forum/vie ... =1&t=91960. Here's your chance to put your thoughts down about these Greenie Meanies without all the back and forth of a he said/she said mystery novel :). Make note of the official "official" definition of what a Greenie Meanie is in post #1!
Jonathan, this thread makes for interesting reading, and I understand the Cornwell premox-like service that you are trying to provide with the GM reporting thread. No harm in that, but its validity is highly questionable. Burgundy, especially young Burgundy, can be a challenge to understand. The palates and tasting experiences on this board are all over the place, just as they are on CT, and Burgundy drinkers do not dominate here. The GM definition seems unlikely to be applied with either precision or accuracy, and I am sure that many babies will be thrown out with the bath water by those who smell or taste nothing more than greenness in a young, closed Burgundy but are looking to be part of the Hunt for Green October. This thread makes it clear that there is no hard science yet, just observations, impressions and speculation. Important observations, impressions and speculations, mind you. Something appears to exist in at least two vintages that does not exist in others, and, like the premox phenomenon, there are questions that need to be answered. However, I think that trying to do that by committee by collecting what will necessarily be diverse and highly subjective opinions, backed by extensive experience in some cases and none or almost none at all in others, is more likely to muddy the waters than to clear them. The "mystery novel" of this thread may surface some reliable science eventually. Very doubtful that the GM thread will do that, unless it becomes the go-to thread for those who can offer some scientific explanations. If that is your intention, fine, but it seems a little odd to try to direct traffic there by denigrating this thread.

It is true that livelihoods may be at stake in Burgundy, as the ITBers are quick to point out, but in the wake of the premox disaster, and the larger context of consumer product safety issues and breaches of consumer trust by producers of wine and other products around the world, it is best to err on the aggressive side. Producers who feel that they have been wronged, or can help explain the phenomenon, are always welcome to participate here, directly or through their importers. One wonders, however, how much Burgundy would remain unsold because of negative press in this thread or Jonathan's. Maybe not so much.

For the larger group: is there any known or suspected incidence of GM in vintages OTHER than 2004 and 2011?

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#61 Post by Tom Blach » November 24th, 2013, 1:33 am

Pyrazine-type flavours have always been found in red Burgundy, they are nothing new.

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#62 Post by John Gilman » November 24th, 2013, 2:59 am

Hi Folks,

As has so eloquently been stated by Bill Klapp above, the varying sensitivities to pyrazines (no matter their cause) will make this discussion a case of apples and oranges for many years, as those of us who are far less sensitive to them will not have the same adverse reaction to the wines as those who are quite sensitive. Just last week, tasting with the Mugneret sisters with a good friend of mine from Germany, who is much more sensitive, this was very much evidenced; he found GMs in two of the 2011s we sampled from bottle- Vosne AC and Gevrey 1er Cru- while both sisters and myself did not notice anything at all other than young red Burg aromatics and flavors and had no concerns whatsoever for the future evolution of those two wines. Such is the case with varying degrees of sensitivity to GMs. Time will tell for both thiis vintage and 2004- I have not sold my '04s nor started drinking them, as I simply want to see what time will do with these wines. For the record, the 1991s had a very overtly green streak out of the blocks that made them extremely difficult to sell after the plush and fruit-driven vintages of 1989 and 1990, and the 1992s had about as nasty a vegetal period as is evidenced in the most strident offenders of 2004 today (though interestingly, with the 1992s, this did not really come to the fore until three to five years after release, rather than right at the outset), and yet two of the most interesting vintages for current drinking of red Burgundy are 1991 and 1992. In contrast, the 1990s were simply stunning out of the blocks and amongst the best red Burgundy vintages I have ever tried young, but went in the other direction and got heavy-handed and pruny and are not particularly good today (though who knows what will happen in the future). This is not to defend either vintage, for those who are more sensitive will probably always find something objectionable with the more GM-influenced wines from each year, and the causes for the green streaks in '04 may well be completely different than in either '91 and '92, but we should always keep in mind that red Burgundy never ages in a linear manner and what we are certain we know today about any given vintage (witness the evolutions in diametrically opposite directions of 1990 and 1992 reds) may change dramatically through the Sine Curve evolutionary patterns of a given vintage over the coming decades. Most people who are more sensitive to pyrazines have already bailed on their 2004s and will skip the 2011s, and those of us who are less sensitive simply have tucked those years away in the cellar and wait for what the future will bring. But, for the record, when I asked Dominique Lafon what vintage of red he is currently drinking if he wants a younger wine that is open and starting to show well, he immediatly cited 2004 and trotted off to pop a bottle of Santenots du Milieu to prove his point. Both of us, being less sensitive to pyrazines, quite enjoyed it.

All the Best,

John

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#63 Post by Tom Blach » November 24th, 2013, 3:08 am

An extremely sensible perspective on a subject which has seemed to acquire witchhunt elements at times, John, many thanks.

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#64 Post by Bill Klapp (deactivated) » November 24th, 2013, 3:35 am

Tom, "witchhunt" would not be a word to be used casually in a situation like this one, but at one extreme, it absolutely smells of that. On the other hand, Burgundy producers on the whole (with there being many exceptions, to be sure) have a long track record of deceit about the quality of poor vintages (to the point of it being a standing joke), too many issues of fraudulent labeling, illegal blending of other grapes, violations of various AOC and other regulations and the failure to aggressively and effectively address premox. Too many have been able to sell all of their wine for too long without being held to a standard of quality by the marketplace (villages-quality Clos Vougeot, anyone?). And I acknowledge these issues as one who buys and drinks Burgundy, not as somebody who drinks only Cali Cab and takes potshots at Burgundy from the Parker peanut gallery. John's post above adds a healthy perspective, but also adds weight to the notion that this is not going to be an easy beast to skin. The perfect solution would be for Jeremy Seysses, acting alone, to solve both the GM and premox problems, Jack Bauer-like...Burgundy needs a hero just now!

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#65 Post by Tom Blach » November 24th, 2013, 4:03 am

For me problems with white Burgundy are an entirely separate issue, Bill, and I must anyway admit that I have largely lost my taste for it. Your point about the historic negatives of Burgundy is well made but for quite some time now one has actually had to make a special effort of ignorance to acquire bad red Burgundy here in the UK and I suspect the same is true in the US, though it certainly exists.

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#66 Post by Bill Klapp (deactivated) » November 24th, 2013, 4:32 am

Maybe less true in the U.S., but I take your point...

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#67 Post by Howard Cooper » November 24th, 2013, 6:54 am

For me, 2004 is the worst vintage in the last 20 years or more. The critics being discussed including John have truly outstanding palates. If they could not see the problems with the vintage until a year or two after bottling, why does anyone think we would have a definitive idea one way or the other on 2011s now. I have absolutely no idea whether ladybugs were responsible for the problems in 2004s. Certainly, people like Fourrier have other answers. It reminds me of premox in white Burgundies. Initially everyone was convinced that corks were the sole reason for the problems - now it seems a lot more complicated.

I thank Bill Nanson for pointing out the issue early. Now my position is wait and see.

There are plenty of Burgundies out there on the market. The best values are in older wines, not young ones. With great vintages like 2009 and 2010 out there and in many cases cheaper than 2011, why take a chance on 2011s right now? Why not wait a year or two and see what happens.
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#68 Post by Howard Cooper » November 24th, 2013, 6:59 am

Paul H Galli wrote:
paul hanna wrote: In '07, I just see an underripe chemical greeness to many wines.
Totally different thing to GM.
I appears you haven't tasted the 2007 Volnays.
Many of them are quite special....

TTT
I agree. When we were in Burgundy this summer, more and more we started to gravitate to 2007 Volnays as the most drinkable wines on menus at restaurants that were available at semi-reasonable prices. Volnays from Lafon, Pousse D'Or and Bouchard were really drinking well. Again, this is not something I would have guessed when 2007s were first released. It took a year or two in bottle before the wines (which were pretty thin and fruitless when first released) started picking up weight and started tasting a whole lot better. Sometimes, as I said in my last post, the best thing to do is wait and see.
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#69 Post by k s h i n » November 24th, 2013, 10:58 am

As I said, I gain nothing by the statement that I made. Unless there was something that was so obvious, I would not have made such a statement. As I said, only the time will tell.
Prior to my recent trip to Burgundy, my experience with the 11 Burgundy was very limited. However having drank all of the Dauvissat lead me to worry about the 11 whites as they were almost identical to the 04s. A couple samples of the 11s from minor crus didn’t show any greens, I thought. Unfortunately, I found quite a few reds that are affected by GM and I believe it will only get worse in a year or two. If you are sensitive to GM, it may be best to avoid the vintage except when you have to maintain your allocation.
GM tends to affect almost all wines. In the 04s, all of the top domaines were affected. I have read a number of times that Truchots are clean but not to me.
Last edited by k s h i n on November 24th, 2013, 11:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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#70 Post by Rick Dalia » November 24th, 2013, 12:43 pm

I would encourage everyone to take a step back, read B Klapp's post above, and perhaps call for a temporary cease-fire. I don't think for one second that anyone's opinion is fueled with malevolence, but its clear to me that those dug in are not going to change their minds, and nor should they at this early stage. There are truly so many variables at present (taster sensitivity and expertise, past experience, wines at such an early stage, etc) and too many unknowns as to the cause of the 2004 plague, that no legitimate conclusion can be drawn. While Jonathan's efforts can be applauded, I can't honestly give any credence to the list in progress. Too many variables. Healthy, good natured debate is awesome. We all love wine, and the intellectual aspects that surround the culture. Raise a glass and toast your fellow board members!

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#71 Post by billnanson » November 24th, 2013, 12:54 pm

Bill Klapp wrote:For the larger group: is there any known or suspected incidence of GM in vintages OTHER than 2004 and 2011?
Hi Bill,
There are isolated but identical presentations, just not the 'super-abundance' seen in 04 and the pointers to at least the same in 2011. I retain pefectly live examples in my 'library of taint' from 2009, 2000, 1999 and even 1978 - because I'm sure one day they will come in handy! It was only the discovery of the latter (and I have 2 more bottles of this Bourée cuvée) that eventually led me to sell 75% of my 04s...
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#72 Post by Peter C. » November 24th, 2013, 1:45 pm

Rick Dalia wrote:I would encourage everyone to take a step back, read B Klapp's post above, and perhaps call for a temporary cease-fire. I don't think for one second that anyone's opinion is fueled with malevolence, but its clear to me that those dug in are not going to change their minds, and nor should they at this early stage. There are truly so many variables at present (taster sensitivity and expertise, past experience, wines at such an early stage, etc) and too many unknowns as to the cause of the 2004 plague, that no legitimate conclusion can be drawn. While Jonathan's efforts can be applauded, I can't honestly give any credence to the list in progress. Too many variables. Healthy, good natured debate is awesome. We all love wine, and the intellectual aspects that surround the culture. Raise a glass and toast your fellow board members!
I don't think anyone is under attack. Merely questions about whether critical opinions of barrel tastings are to be trusted moving forward. That's fair IMO. I don't think anyone's out of line.
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#73 Post by Rick Dalia » November 24th, 2013, 2:04 pm

Perhaps. As I read the posts, pages and pages, I think most are civil. Maybe I oughta stop reading them for awhile. :o

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#74 Post by Peter Chiu » November 25th, 2013, 5:33 am

PCLIN wrote:
paul hanna wrote:
Paul H Galli wrote:
I assume that you haven't tried the Pousse "60 degrees", because if you don't like that, well....

TTT
Nope, funnily enough the one I haven't tried.

If I see one, I will give it a go....
Just had a delicious 96' Pousse "60 degrees" for lunch today, showing better than some of 96' Grand Crus.

Thanks for posting Chiu.....I nearly lost my faith.

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#75 Post by Peter Chiu » November 25th, 2013, 5:39 am

Bill Klapp wrote:
Jonathan Favre wrote:Post here guys with solid tastings of '11s if you can - http://www.wineberserkers.com/forum/vie ... =1&t=91960. Here's your chance to put your thoughts down about these Greenie Meanies without all the back and forth of a he said/she said mystery novel :). Make note of the official "official" definition of what a Greenie Meanie is in post #1!
Jonathan, this thread makes for interesting reading, and I understand the Cornwell premox-like service that you are trying to provide with the GM reporting thread. No harm in that, but its validity is highly questionable. Burgundy, especially young Burgundy, can be a challenge to understand. The palates and tasting experiences on this board are all over the place, just as they are on CT, and Burgundy drinkers do not dominate here. The GM definition seems unlikely to be applied with either precision or accuracy, and I am sure that many babies will be thrown out with the bath water by those who smell or taste nothing more than greenness in a young, closed Burgundy but are looking to be part of the Hunt for Green October. This thread makes it clear that there is no hard science yet, just observations, impressions and speculation. Important observations, impressions and speculations, mind you. Something appears to exist in at least two vintages that does not exist in others, and, like the premox phenomenon, there are questions that need to be answered. However, I think that trying to do that by committee by collecting what will necessarily be diverse and highly subjective opinions, backed by extensive experience in some cases and none or almost none at all in others, is more likely to muddy the waters than to clear them. The "mystery novel" of this thread may surface some reliable science eventually. Very doubtful that the GM thread will do that, unless it becomes the go-to thread for those who can offer some scientific explanations. If that is your intention, fine, but it seems a little odd to try to direct traffic there by denigrating this thread.

It is true that livelihoods may be at stake in Burgundy, as the ITBers are quick to point out, but in the wake of the premox disaster, and the larger context of consumer product safety issues and breaches of consumer trust by producers of wine and other products around the world, it is best to err on the aggressive side. Producers who feel that they have been wronged, or can help explain the phenomenon, are always welcome to participate here, directly or through their importers. One wonders, however, how much Burgundy would remain unsold because of negative press in this thread or Jonathan's. Maybe not so much.

For the larger group: is there any known or suspected incidence of GM in vintages OTHER than 2004 and 2011?



[welldone.gif] [thankyou.gif] why it takes so long for you to post - Bill !!


*****.....No harm in that, but its validity is highly questionable. Burgundy, especially young Burgundy, can be a challenge to understand........****



2011 burgundy is just 2 and will barely be 3 in a few months.

Please have faith with your farourite producers, if in doubt, buy less of 2011. Just my 2 cents....

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#76 Post by Robert Panzer » November 25th, 2013, 7:34 am

billnanson wrote:
Bill Klapp wrote:For the larger group: is there any known or suspected incidence of GM in vintages OTHER than 2004 and 2011?
Hi Bill,
There are isolated but identical presentations, just not the 'super-abundance' seen in 04 and the pointers to at least the same in 2011. I retain pefectly live examples in my 'library of taint' from 2009, 2000, 1999 and even 1978 - because I'm sure one day they will come in handy! It was only the discovery of the latter (and I have 2 more bottles of this Bourée cuvée) that eventually led me to sell 75% of my 04s...
Was the Ladybird present in Europe 2000 and prior? Or do you think that another species presents the same type of pyrazine?

Fwiw, i'm glad that we are discussing the subject, and hope that we can continue constructive dialogue. It merits very very serious consideration and study, and the growers need to be more involved in this dialogue and study. There needs to be far more communication between consumers and the growers, and that is our role (and when I say "our" I mean all intermediaries from importers/critics/agents) to facilitate that conversation.

[cheers.gif]

(I hope that this smiley has a taint free glass of red wine in his hand...either that or he enjoys it in spite of its subtle taint)
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#77 Post by Jonathan Favre » November 25th, 2013, 7:58 am

Hey guys! I'm pretty sure we can trust each others tastings for these wines since we're mostly talking to ourselves :). I think asking each other what we taste is exactly what is needed short of a systematic characterization of each chemical that may or may not cause a hint of "green" character in a burgundy (probably not going to happen!). This wonderful group of burgundy experts we have here are all over the place as far as experience goes but who cares since we all seem to be in the 1%'er group as far as the love for burgundy and purchasing goes..... Experienced tasters like John G. (see post #62) are less sensitive where Bill N./Kevin are ultra sensitive and I think we'd all agree that each is subjectively correct. For me at least, the most frustrating thing about all of the previous threads about the '04s being horrid or not and especially now about the '11s is that we all seem to be talking past each other. Nothing resolved or tracked - just you're right or wrong - period. Why not post your notes and impressions now so we can track the progress of that wine and the accompanying taster?

I have no idea if the '11s are all tainted with the horrid lady bug pyrazine taint or it's just typical vintage characteristics - I do think this will play itself out in time. It's not what I intended the other thread to do but it seems that's what it's set up to do for us. This is why I attempted to come up with the following definition of what a Greenie Meanie is - “"Pyrazine like flavors and/or scents - overtly green and chemical in nature - overt high toned broccoli - also can be described as crushed lady bugs. This should not including stem like flavors/scents that are a part of the wines from producers whom use stems during vinification.” I hear all the arguments like “don’t taste burgundies so young” and “people here can’t tell the difference” – I say those are lame excuses for not trying to understand this phenomena better. In the end, it may turn out that lady bugs are taking over the world OR we might find out that natural green elements make up what some are tasting. Who know but it will be fun finding out!

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#78 Post by Peter Chiu » November 25th, 2013, 8:04 am

I do not believe that I am doing this..... deadhorse

All I can repeat is : the more you learn and know about Burgundy, the more I realize I know less. Drinking burgundy at age 2 or just barely 3 .......needs lot of courage and imagination [truce.gif]


Who know but it will be fun finding out!
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#79 Post by Jonathan Favre » November 25th, 2013, 8:33 am

Peter Chiu wrote:I do not believe that I am doing this..... deadhorse

All I can repeat is : the more you learn and know about Burgundy, the more I realize I know less. Drinking burgundy at age 2 or just barely 3 .......needs lot of courage and imagination [truce.gif]


Who know but it will be fun finding out!
Yes - it will be fun but at what cost..... newhere
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Critical of the Critics - 2004 & 2011 Red Burgundy

#80 Post by Howard Cooper » November 25th, 2013, 8:55 am

Jonathan Favre wrote:Hey guys! I'm pretty sure we can trust each others tastings for these wines since we're mostly talking to ourselves :). I think asking each other what we taste is exactly what is needed short of a systematic characterization of each chemical that may or may not cause a hint of "green" character in a burgundy (probably not going to happen!). This wonderful group of burgundy experts we have here are all over the place as far as experience goes but who cares since we all seem to be in the 1%'er group as far as the love for burgundy and purchasing goes..... Experienced tasters like John G. (see post #62) are less sensitive where Bill N./Kevin are ultra sensitive and I think we'd all agree that each is subjectively correct. For me at least, the most frustrating thing about all of the previous threads about the '04s being horrid or not and especially now about the '11s is that we all seem to be talking past each other. Nothing resolved or tracked - just you're right or wrong - period. Why not post your notes and impressions now so we can track the progress of that wine and the accompanying taster?

I have no idea if the '11s are all tainted with the horrid lady bug pyrazine taint or it's just typical vintage characteristics - I do think this will play itself out in time. It's not what I intended the other thread to do but it seems that's what it's set up to do for us. This is why I attempted to come up with the following definition of what a Greenie Meanie is - “"Pyrazine like flavors and/or scents - overtly green and chemical in nature - overt high toned broccoli - also can be described as crushed lady bugs. This should not including stem like flavors/scents that are a part of the wines from producers whom use stems during vinification.” I hear all the arguments like “don’t taste burgundies so young” and “people here can’t tell the difference” – I say those are lame excuses for not trying to understand this phenomena better. In the end, it may turn out that lady bugs are taking over the world OR we might find out that natural green elements make up what some are tasting. Who know but it will be fun finding out!
Jon, you are a real Burgundy expert and someone I think of with no agenda either commercial or to say look at me I called it correctly first. What do you personally think of the 2004s you have had and have you tasted much in the way of 2011, and, if so, what do you think of them. I admit I have not read every post on all these threads and if you have stated your views I apologize for having missed them.
Howard

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#81 Post by scott c » November 25th, 2013, 9:23 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
Jonathan Favre wrote:Hey guys! I'm pretty sure we can trust each others tastings for these wines since we're mostly talking to ourselves :). I think asking each other what we taste is exactly what is needed short of a systematic characterization of each chemical that may or may not cause a hint of "green" character in a burgundy (probably not going to happen!). This wonderful group of burgundy experts we have here are all over the place as far as experience goes but who cares since we all seem to be in the 1%'er group as far as the love for burgundy and purchasing goes..... Experienced tasters like John G. (see post #62) are less sensitive where Bill N./Kevin are ultra sensitive and I think we'd all agree that each is subjectively correct. For me at least, the most frustrating thing about all of the previous threads about the '04s being horrid or not and especially now about the '11s is that we all seem to be talking past each other. Nothing resolved or tracked - just you're right or wrong - period. Why not post your notes and impressions now so we can track the progress of that wine and the accompanying taster?

I have no idea if the '11s are all tainted with the horrid lady bug pyrazine taint or it's just typical vintage characteristics - I do think this will play itself out in time. It's not what I intended the other thread to do but it seems that's what it's set up to do for us. This is why I attempted to come up with the following definition of what a Greenie Meanie is - “"Pyrazine like flavors and/or scents - overtly green and chemical in nature - overt high toned broccoli - also can be described as crushed lady bugs. This should not including stem like flavors/scents that are a part of the wines from producers whom use stems during vinification.” I hear all the arguments like “don’t taste burgundies so young” and “people here can’t tell the difference” – I say those are lame excuses for not trying to understand this phenomena better. In the end, it may turn out that lady bugs are taking over the world OR we might find out that natural green elements make up what some are tasting. Who know but it will be fun finding out!
Jon, you are a real Burgundy expert and someone I think of with no agenda either commercial or to say look at me I called it correctly first. What do you personally think of the 2004s you have had and have you tasted much in the way of 2011, and, if so, what do you think of them. I admit I have not read every post on all these threads and if you have stated your views I apologize for having missed them.
Howard: I'm not Jon, and you might not see this post, but here is the 2004 thread that I have bookmarked as one of the best discussions of the topic (started by a 2004 lunch that Jon did):

http://www.wineberserkers.com/forum/vie ... ?p=1078499
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#82 Post by Jonathan Favre » November 25th, 2013, 9:27 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
Jonathan Favre wrote:Hey guys! I'm pretty sure we can trust each others tastings for these wines since we're mostly talking to ourselves :). I think asking each other what we taste is exactly what is needed short of a systematic characterization of each chemical that may or may not cause a hint of "green" character in a burgundy (probably not going to happen!). This wonderful group of burgundy experts we have here are all over the place as far as experience goes but who cares since we all seem to be in the 1%'er group as far as the love for burgundy and purchasing goes..... Experienced tasters like John G. (see post #62) are less sensitive where Bill N./Kevin are ultra sensitive and I think we'd all agree that each is subjectively correct. For me at least, the most frustrating thing about all of the previous threads about the '04s being horrid or not and especially now about the '11s is that we all seem to be talking past each other. Nothing resolved or tracked - just you're right or wrong - period. Why not post your notes and impressions now so we can track the progress of that wine and the accompanying taster?

I have no idea if the '11s are all tainted with the horrid lady bug pyrazine taint or it's just typical vintage characteristics - I do think this will play itself out in time. It's not what I intended the other thread to do but it seems that's what it's set up to do for us. This is why I attempted to come up with the following definition of what a Greenie Meanie is - “"Pyrazine like flavors and/or scents - overtly green and chemical in nature - overt high toned broccoli - also can be described as crushed lady bugs. This should not including stem like flavors/scents that are a part of the wines from producers whom use stems during vinification.” I hear all the arguments like “don’t taste burgundies so young” and “people here can’t tell the difference” – I say those are lame excuses for not trying to understand this phenomena better. In the end, it may turn out that lady bugs are taking over the world OR we might find out that natural green elements make up what some are tasting. Who know but it will be fun finding out!
Jon, you are a real Burgundy expert and someone I think of with no agenda either commercial or to say look at me I called it correctly first. What do you personally think of the 2004s you have had and have you tasted much in the way of 2011, and, if so, what do you think of them. I admit I have not read every post on all these threads and if you have stated your views I apologize for having missed them.
Hey Howard - are you headed to SF La Paulee in March? I was in burgundy to taste the '10s and missed out last year on visiting :( - wish I was able to go last year! I missed out on tasting all '11s after harvest. I'm headed to burgundy later this week to taste mostly '12s and probably several '11s out of bottle which I'm frankly very excited about. Other than some '11 PYCM wines there have been few for me to taste which is going to change soon with lots finally being delivered. The '11 Jadot Chevalier Demoiselles last march was a barrel sample brought to NYC - tasted like a brand new wine of course. Mid March at the SF La Paulee there will be hundred to taste - some will skip but I'm going to have at the '11s with much anticipation.

My '04 experience is quite mixed - some wines are horrid with copious amounts of crushed lady bug taint and some are certainly not harmed at all. Gotta love the subjective nature of our taste buds! Thinking back to some nice '04 burgundy threads in the past the argument seemed to be that "all" wines were tainted which may or may not be entirely possible :). LOL - actually no definitive conclusion came about if I'm remembering right [cheers.gif]. I really do think that tracking this early and often with some lively discussion inbetween will help all of us (myself being #1 in line!) come to some sort of resolution as to how many of these '11s will turn out. I love the wines from Dujac because they do have stem inclusion - in a good or average burg vintage. Yummy!

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#83 Post by Mike Grammer » November 25th, 2013, 9:55 am

A.Gillette wrote:In 2001, the Ontario wine industry dumped over 1 million liters of wine that were deemed inappropriate for shelves because they were tainted by asian ladybeetles. One could debate whether all of the wines truly suffered from ladybug taint, and one could make a reasonable case that there were non-ladybug pyrazines affecting some of the wine.

A
Brief notes (I read most but not all of the posts in the thread)

Yup. I've *never* tasted a single bottle of 2001 Ontario red that wasn't awful because of this. In fact, one well-regarded producer ended up labeling a Rose the "Ladybug" Rose, a name that has stuck all these years later. (it's actually pretty decent most years)

FTR, for me, ladybug taint has always had rancid peanut associated with it

I did get that when tasting some 2004 Comte de Vogue many years ago and the person pouring confided that there were ladybug problems

I have had few instances of GMs in 2004 reds, but I've also never had any wines that could be called special from that vintage in reds

I guess I've been lucky--most of the 2004 whites I've had have been delightful and complex...of course, the last one I had was probably about 1.5 years ago

I have been fortunate enough to be at an OL with Kevin Shin and I pretty much trust his palate and perceptions.

For me, the issue is interesting without impacting my wallet as, save for some selected producers, it is very likely that 2010 will be the last Burg vintage that I put a concerted effort into acquiring bottles of. I'm not getting any younger either :)

Since it's been raised, more and more 2007s are starting to seem attractive to me---Corton is another commune I feel has done very well, agree with Testy about Volnays too.

Soldier on, all.

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#84 Post by Alan Rath » November 25th, 2013, 10:18 am

I've posted this before: I'm absolutely certain that some wine researchers somewhere have done the work of characterizing lady bug pyrazines, and looking for those compounds in wines from 2004 (and probably other vintages). If not publishes somewhere, I'll bet that someone has the answer. Honestly, it's so silly to be having this discussion over and over, when it is such a simple scientific question to answer.
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#85 Post by Bill Klapp (deactivated) » November 25th, 2013, 10:47 am

Jonathan Favre wrote:Hey guys! I'm pretty sure we can trust each others tastings for these wines since we're mostly talking to ourselves :). I think asking each other what we taste is exactly what is needed short of a systematic characterization of each chemical that may or may not cause a hint of "green" character in a burgundy (probably not going to happen!). This wonderful group of burgundy experts we have here are all over the place as far as experience goes but who cares since we all seem to be in the 1%'er group as far as the love for burgundy and purchasing goes..... Experienced tasters like John G. (see post #62) are less sensitive where Bill N./Kevin are ultra sensitive and I think we'd all agree that each is subjectively correct. For me at least, the most frustrating thing about all of the previous threads about the '04s being horrid or not and especially now about the '11s is that we all seem to be talking past each other. Nothing resolved or tracked - just you're right or wrong - period. Why not post your notes and impressions now so we can track the progress of that wine and the accompanying taster?

I have no idea if the '11s are all tainted with the horrid lady bug pyrazine taint or it's just typical vintage characteristics - I do think this will play itself out in time. It's not what I intended the other thread to do but it seems that's what it's set up to do for us. This is why I attempted to come up with the following definition of what a Greenie Meanie is - “"Pyrazine like flavors and/or scents - overtly green and chemical in nature - overt high toned broccoli - also can be described as crushed lady bugs. This should not including stem like flavors/scents that are a part of the wines from producers whom use stems during vinification.” I hear all the arguments like “don’t taste burgundies so young” and “people here can’t tell the difference” – I say those are lame excuses for not trying to understand this phenomena better. In the end, it may turn out that lady bugs are taking over the world OR we might find out that natural green elements make up what some are tasting. Who know but it will be fun finding out!
Jon, I am not picking on you and am already on record as saying that I do not see any harm in your thread, but I did not get halfway down the first page of it before people were squaring off with diametrically opposite views of the same wine. It is for that reason that i continue to be skeptical about the utility of the thread. I do not think that there is a critical mass of impressive Burgundy expertise here. As someone suggested above, there may not be such a thing as Burgundy expertise. We may all be students forever!

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#86 Post by Howard Cooper » November 25th, 2013, 10:57 am

Jonathan Favre wrote: Hey Howard - are you headed to SF La Paulee in March? I was in burgundy to taste the '10s and missed out last year on visiting :( - wish I was able to go last year! I missed out on tasting all '11s after harvest. I'm headed to burgundy later this week to taste mostly '12s and probably several '11s out of bottle which I'm frankly very excited about. Other than some '11 PYCM wines there have been few for me to taste which is going to change soon with lots finally being delivered. The '11 Jadot Chevalier Demoiselles last march was a barrel sample brought to NYC - tasted like a brand new wine of course. Mid March at the SF La Paulee there will be hundred to taste - some will skip but I'm going to have at the '11s with much anticipation.

My '04 experience is quite mixed - some wines are horrid with copious amounts of crushed lady bug taint and some are certainly not harmed at all. Gotta love the subjective nature of our taste buds! Thinking back to some nice '04 burgundy threads in the past the argument seemed to be that "all" wines were tainted which may or may not be entirely possible :). LOL - actually no definitive conclusion came about if I'm remembering right [cheers.gif]. I really do think that tracking this early and often with some lively discussion inbetween will help all of us (myself being #1 in line!) come to some sort of resolution as to how many of these '11s will turn out. I love the wines from Dujac because they do have stem inclusion - in a good or average burg vintage. Yummy!
Jon,

I don't think so. I typically only go every other year when the Paulee is in NY. I generally think that going to Burgundy is not much further than going to SF so why go to SF to taste Burgundy.

When I was in Burgundy this past summer, I tasted more 2012 reds than 2011 reds. However, I tasted 2011 reds at Clos des Lambrays and Lafon and found them to be outclassed by 2010s and 2012s at the same winery. That was my only side by side comparison.

I tasted a range of 2011 whites at Lafon and at Dublere and found them to be very good. I have also had a number of very good 2004 whites, in contrast to 2004 reds, where there have been relatively few that I have really liked.
Howard

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#87 Post by Mike Grammer » November 25th, 2013, 12:08 pm

Alan Rath wrote:I've posted this before: I'm absolutely certain that some wine researchers somewhere have done the work of characterizing lady bug pyrazines, and looking for those compounds in wines from 2004 (and probably other vintages). If not publishes somewhere, I'll bet that someone has the answer. Honestly, it's so silly to be having this discussion over and over, when it is such a simple scientific question to answer.
Ah, but...my friend---you forget, if we didn't have this to obsess over---over and over again---what would we do with our days? [grin.gif]
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#88 Post by Peter Chiu » November 26th, 2013, 4:33 am

Jonathan Favre wrote:
Peter Chiu wrote:I do not believe that I am doing this..... deadhorse

All I can repeat is : the more you learn and know about Burgundy, the more I realize I know less. Drinking burgundy at age 2 or just barely 3 .......needs lot of courage and imagination [truce.gif]


Who know but it will be fun finding out!
Yes - it will be fun but at what cost..... newhere
Severe emotional and moderate financial cost neener!
My message is not aiming at your at all. It is believe that opening red Burgundy at 2 or barely 3 is way too young.

I love to drink red Burgundy at young age of 4, 5 and/or 6........ [cheers.gif] i
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#89 Post by Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow » November 26th, 2013, 8:10 am

Your parents must have been very open minded, Peter. [pillow-fight.gif]

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#90 Post by Bill Klapp (deactivated) » November 26th, 2013, 8:50 am

His maternal grandfather was Henri Jayer...

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#91 Post by Nathan V. » November 26th, 2013, 9:36 am

Jonathan Favre wrote:Hey guys! I'm pretty sure we can trust each others tastings for these wines since we're mostly talking to ourselves :). I think asking each other what we taste is exactly what is needed short of a systematic characterization of each chemical that may or may not cause a hint of "green" character in a burgundy (probably not going to happen!). This wonderful group of burgundy experts we have here are all over the place as far as experience goes but who cares since we all seem to be in the 1%'er group as far as the love for burgundy and purchasing goes..... Experienced tasters like John G. (see post #62) are less sensitive where Bill N./Kevin are ultra sensitive and I think we'd all agree that each is subjectively correct. For me at least, the most frustrating thing about all of the previous threads about the '04s being horrid or not and especially now about the '11s is that we all seem to be talking past each other. Nothing resolved or tracked - just you're right or wrong - period.
Jon, this is not a "sensitivity" issue as I doubt that there is a detection threshold difference between any of the tasters. This is a labeling issue and a preference issue. For example, I'm a big fan of Loire Valley red wines, so pyrazine type aromas seem quite natural to me whereas they would be more out of place with someone who has a different set of preferences.

2004 has lots of other problems besides pyrazines that 2011 doesn't have.
I have no idea if the '11s are all tainted with the horrid lady bug pyrazine taint or it's just typical vintage characteristics - I do think this will play itself out in time.


There is still no conclusive evidence that ladybugs are an issue with 2004. I personally think that it is a combination of lots of things and ladybugs as the boogie-man culprit aren't even necessary.
It's not what I intended the other thread to do but it seems that's what it's set up to do for us. This is why I attempted to come up with the following definition of what a Greenie Meanie is - “"Pyrazine like flavors and/or scents - overtly green and chemical in nature - overt high toned broccoli - also can be described as crushed lady bugs. This should not including stem like flavors/scents that are a part of the wines from producers whom use stems during vinification.”
What does "overt high toned broccoli" or "crushed lady bugs" or "stem like flavors/scents" smell like? I understand what you are trying to do, but you can't get there from here. What you would need were pyrazine compounds at different dilutions as a training set and then have people taste the wines.
I hear all the arguments like “don’t taste burgundies so young” and “people here can’t tell the difference” – I say those are lame excuses for not trying to understand this phenomena better. In the end, it may turn out that lady bugs are taking over the world OR we might find out that natural green elements make up what some are tasting. Who know but it will be fun finding out!
I too get frustrated with the "you had a bad bottle" or "you can't evaluate X young" but without any evidence the ladybug hypothesis is pure anecdote and speculation.
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#92 Post by Peter Chiu » November 26th, 2013, 9:43 am

Bill Klapp wrote:His maternal grandfather was Henri Jayer...

Bill.....I am a firm believer of what Jasper Morris said in his new and recent Book : do not treat any burgundy producer as God ( or someting similar ).

I am not a fun of H. Jayer !

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#93 Post by k s h i n » November 26th, 2013, 9:56 am

Nathan,
I too like Loire reds but GM note is very unique. IMO, GM sensitivity varies significantly and this can be easily demonstrated by the 04 Ponsot CDR notes on CT. This wine is clearly and so obviously tainted yet the opinions vary a lot, 97 pts vs 60 pts.

I agree whole heartedly with others that it would be great to perform a chemical analysis.

Please don’t take this in wrong way but I was a part of the 06 white GC tasting of CC vs Montrachets. One of the most respected critics in France claimed that it would be impossible to tell them apart due to the clone selections at the time of planting new vines. I was able to tell them apart with 80% accuracy and found it was not terribly difficult. Is that mean there is no difference since most were unable to tell?
Kevin
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#94 Post by Nathan V. » November 26th, 2013, 10:09 am

Kevin Shin wrote:Nathan,
I too like Loire reds but GM note is very unique. IMO, GM sensitivity varies significantly and this can be easily demonstrated by the 04 Ponsot CDR notes on CT. This wine is clearly and so obviously tainted yet the opinions vary a lot, 97 pts vs 60 pts.
The plural of anecdote is not data and I don't put much into CT notes from people I don't know. This is very, very unlikely to be a difference in sensitivity the way that anyone who studies olfaction (which I haven't done in more than 10 years) would define sensitivity.

I agree whole heartedly with others that it would be great to perform a chemical analysis.
That really is the only way to say anything definitive.
Please don’t take this in wrong way but I was a part of the 06 white GC tasting of CC vs Montrachets. One of the most respected critics in France claimed that it would be impossible to tell them apart due to the clone selections at the time of planting new vines. I was able to tell them apart with 80% accuracy and found it was not terribly difficult. Is that mean there is no difference since most were unable to tell?
I'm sure you are an acute taster, but this is not a difference in sensitivity in terms of detection thresholds. I'm not speaking colloquially here, but very specifically. Unless there is something physically wrong with another taster, decetection thresholds do not vary widely enough to make a huge difference in pryazine detection. What different pyrazine levels can do (and I've seen them do experimentally) is that the note changes depending on dilution.
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#95 Post by k s h i n » November 26th, 2013, 10:21 am

Nathan V. wrote:I'm sure you are an acute taster, but this is not a difference in sensitivity in terms of detection thresholds. I'm not speaking colloquially here, but very specifically. Unless there is something physically wrong with another taster, decetection thresholds do not vary widely enough to make a huge difference in pryazine detection. What different pyrazine levels can do (and I've seen them do experimentally) is that the note changes depending on dilution.
Nathan,
I think this would be a great experiment or organize a blind tasting of five 04s and five 05s where all tasters think they are very sensitive to the 04 flavor.
Kevin
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#96 Post by Nathan V. » November 26th, 2013, 10:26 am

Kevin Shin wrote:
Nathan V. wrote:I'm sure you are an acute taster, but this is not a difference in sensitivity in terms of detection thresholds. I'm not speaking colloquially here, but very specifically. Unless there is something physically wrong with another taster, decetection thresholds do not vary widely enough to make a huge difference in pryazine detection. What different pyrazine levels can do (and I've seen them do experimentally) is that the note changes depending on dilution.
Nathan,
I think this would be a great experiment or organize a blind tasting of five 04s and five 05s where all tasters think they are very sensitive to the 04 flavor.
I think that money would be better spent by taking the same wine in 2002-2011 and getting spectographic analysis done with specific targets.
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#97 Post by Jonathan Favre » November 26th, 2013, 1:30 pm

Nathan V. wrote:
Kevin Shin wrote:
Nathan V. wrote:I'm sure you are an acute taster, but this is not a difference in sensitivity in terms of detection thresholds. I'm not speaking colloquially here, but very specifically. Unless there is something physically wrong with another taster, decetection thresholds do not vary widely enough to make a huge difference in pryazine detection. What different pyrazine levels can do (and I've seen them do experimentally) is that the note changes depending on dilution.
Nathan,
I think this would be a great experiment or organize a blind tasting of five 04s and five 05s where all tasters think they are very sensitive to the 04 flavor.
I think that money would be better spent by taking the same wine in 2002-2011 and getting spectographic analysis done with specific targets.
Fabulous idea Nathan - go for it!! Let us know what is found as the findings would be very interesting. Once the essence of lady bug "juice" is isolated we can submit it to be chemically duplicated and placed in the Le Nuz du Vin aroma kits so the world can know our pain. I'm being serious!!

I think there is no doubt that some '04s are tainted with the horrid GM taint - the definition is the best we could come up with! If you have any suggestions or specifics that would clarify what the horrid taint is by all means let me know. As we can start to see with the VERY EARLY results (http://www.wineberserkers.com/forum/vie ... =1&t=91960) - maybe '11 burgundy is not at all affected by the GM taint??? Way to early I know and we're tasting wines that may be way to young - with fruit that could potentially mask any GM taint to the average taster, etc. :).... Please join in Nathan with your findings and tasting notes as you taste this fine young burgundy vintage so we might get a resolution for the majority of burgundy lovers here. CHEERS

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#98 Post by Nathan V. » November 26th, 2013, 1:47 pm

Jonathan Favre wrote:
Nathan V. wrote:
Kevin Shin wrote: Nathan,
I think this would be a great experiment or organize a blind tasting of five 04s and five 05s where all tasters think they are very sensitive to the 04 flavor.
I think that money would be better spent by taking the same wine in 2002-2011 and getting spectographic analysis done with specific targets.
Fabulous idea Nathan - go for it!! Let us know what is found as the findings would be very interesting. Once the essence of lady bug "juice" is isolated we can submit it to be chemically duplicated and placed in the Le Nuz du Vin aroma kits so the world can know our pain. I'm being serious!!

I think there is no doubt that some '04s are tainted with the horrid GM taint - the definition is the best we could come up with! If you have any suggestions or specifics that would clarify what the horrid taint is by all means let me know. As we can start to see with the VERY EARLY results (http://www.wineberserkers.com/forum/vie ... =1&t=91960) - maybe '11 burgundy is not at all affected by the GM taint??? Way to early I know and we're tasting wines that may be way to young - with fruit that could potentially mask any GM taint to the average taster, etc. :).... Please join in Nathan with your findings and tasting notes as you taste this fine young burgundy vintage so we might get a resolution for the majority of burgundy lovers here. CHEERS
Well, I'm not paying for it (that's my 2011 Burgundy budget and prices are up) but I'd be happy to help design the study. In one of the academic studies that (I think) Hans linked to it identifies the compounds of ladybug taint.

I didn't buy 2004s because I had other issues with that vintage unrelated to possible ladybugs infection. The under-ripe phenols + high alcohol = bleh.

In my limited experience thus far with 2011, the vintages are not the same.
ITB-ish.
V = V a n der g r i f t

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L e o F r o k i c
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Critical of the Critics - 2004 & 2011 Red Burgundy

#99 Post by L e o F r o k i c » June 11th, 2018, 8:32 am

5 years after, how do you feel about 2011 red burgundies. I absolutely hate them, pyrazines are so pronounce that I have problem finishing the glass. At release we had 20+ bottles, not a single was good and since then I had around 30 from various producers and appellations. They do have nice fruit but I can't get past Pyrazines. Tasted them when they were in the barrel and could clearly taste dreaded Pyrazines. Recently I also had some 2004 reds and majority are undrinkable to me.
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Critical of the Critics - 2004 & 2011 Red Burgundy

#100 Post by A Songeur » June 11th, 2018, 9:04 am

Yes, I don't think the problem is as bad as 2004...but there is a problem for me as well. Whi is a pity because the good ones drink well at the moment.
Apparently the Lady Birds love red wines as the white burgundies are not affected...
Antoine

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