Critical of the Critics - 2004 & 2011 Red Burgundy

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Tom Blach
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Re: Critical of the Critics - 2004 & 2011 Red Burgundy

#201 Post by Tom Blach » May 16th, 2020, 5:17 am

dcornutt wrote:
May 16th, 2020, 4:39 am
James Billy wrote:
July 26th, 2018, 4:03 am
Will those 2004s ever blossom into things of beauty or always be 'tainted'?
Anyone with some 2004 La Tache they want to dump? Same with 2011.
An absolutely fantastic wine; there are very many in 04, along with some that are still problematic. It may currently be offering the best drinking of any post 2000 vintage.

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Re: Critical of the Critics - 2004 & 2011 Red Burgundy

#202 Post by Robert Sand » May 16th, 2020, 6:29 am

Just fwiw - 2004 and 2011 are quite different imo - the greenness in 2004 emerged 6 months to 1 year after bottling - and hasn´t disappeared yet. I´m sensitive to it - and it detracts all joy of drinking for me.
2011 on the other hand yielded some great wines, and only in the lesser producers I found some green tastes due to underripeness, but not the GM of 2004. It´s no great vintage, but for drinking earlier it´s my 1st choice after 2007. A fine restaurant vintage.
Chevillon 2004 is definitely infected with GM - a Chaignots was no joy to drink in February.

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Re: Critical of the Critics - 2004 & 2011 Red Burgundy

#203 Post by dr0ch » May 16th, 2020, 6:57 am

Gaudissabois Johan wrote:
May 16th, 2020, 1:43 am
The greenness in the 2004's could only be found after a couple of years. It was not there in barrel....But those who put the 2011's on the same level have not yet tasted them.
I was in Burgundy in April 2013 with several other friends and we could taste 'green notes' in many of the wines from barrel, and we tasted at over 20 top domaines. I've also opened several 2011s from bottle over the past handful of years and most still showed green/swampy notes. I will admit that I have had a few 2011s that did not show any signs of greenness, and were quite good, but that has been the exception rather than the rule in my experience. Clearly some domaines produced good wines in the vintage, and the problem doesn't seem as bad as 2004, but for me the vintage across the board is generally not great. To each their own.
-Devin

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Re: Critical of the Critics - 2004 & 2011 Red Burgundy

#204 Post by Gaudissabois Johan » May 16th, 2020, 7:14 am

Friends,

i fully agree with Robert Sand. 2011 may be the best vintage for drinking now so that the 2009s, 2010s etc.. can fully come round. Comparing 2011 to 2004 it is the other way round whenever "greenness" is concerned. With 2004 it was not there from the start but it showed up in practically every wine shortly afterwards. That does not imply all 2004s were undrinkable. I had lots of good wines but I always disliked the greenness in them. With 2011 it was there from the beginning with a in my view limited number of wines but it is no longer visible now. And, I repeat it is an ideal vintage for drinking now. I will be tasting lots of 2011s in the near future. One tasting alongside Master of Wine Jan De Clerck (the only MW we have in Belgium). As I said : I'll keep you lot posted. It is of course ALWAYS intersting to hear from tasters who had different experiences. But Id love to hear what wines/domaines we are talking about where greenness was detected.

SINCERELY JOHAN

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Re: Critical of the Critics - 2004 & 2011 Red Burgundy

#205 Post by Barry L i p t o n » May 16th, 2020, 8:22 am

Barry L i p t o n wrote:
August 1st, 2018, 11:31 am
The best descriptor of 2004 Pondot CDLR - pickle juice
I just retasted it this week out of 375. Shocked that evolved into something decent. Sort of like a burgundy for bordeaux lovers. Not my style but nobody could drink it when we did a tasting back in 07.

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Re: Critical of the Critics - 2004 & 2011 Red Burgundy

#206 Post by dr0ch » May 16th, 2020, 9:02 am

Gaudissabois Johan wrote:
May 16th, 2020, 7:14 am
But Id love to hear what wines/domaines we are talking about where greenness was detected.
Drouhin, Mugnier, Bachelet, Barthod, Grivot, Jadot, Lafarge to name a few. Not every wine in their respective line-ups, but enough to stand out to us (3-4 different tasters all taking notes independently). With that said, like TCA, everyone has different levels of tolerance/sensitivity, so if one finds the wines enjoyable, that's great as the wines are relatively well-priced compared to other recent vintages.
-Devin

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Re: Critical of the Critics - 2004 & 2011 Red Burgundy

#207 Post by dcornutt » May 16th, 2020, 10:15 am

Drouhin Musigny was affected in 2004. It was terrifically green the last time I tasted it. FWIW.
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Re: Critical of the Critics - 2004 & 2011 Red Burgundy

#208 Post by k s h i n » May 16th, 2020, 4:10 pm

dr0ch wrote:
May 16th, 2020, 9:02 am
like TCA, everyone has different levels of tolerance/sensitivity, so if one finds the wines enjoyable, that's great as the wines are relatively well-priced compared to other recent vintages.
This is why I try to avoid the topic. BTW, the 11s are a lot better than the 04s. The 04 like note was pretty strong in some of the wines in barrel.
Kevin
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Re: Critical of the Critics - 2004 & 2011 Red Burgundy

#209 Post by Howard Cooper » May 16th, 2020, 4:25 pm

k s h i n wrote:
May 16th, 2020, 4:10 pm
dr0ch wrote:
May 16th, 2020, 9:02 am
like TCA, everyone has different levels of tolerance/sensitivity, so if one finds the wines enjoyable, that's great as the wines are relatively well-priced compared to other recent vintages.
This is why I try to avoid the topic. BTW, the 11s are a lot better than the 04s. The 04 like note was pretty strong in some of the wines in barrel.
I agree that 2011s are on average a lot better than 2004s on average. But, still 2011 IMHO is easily the worst vintage since after 2004.
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Re: Critical of the Critics - 2004 & 2011 Red Burgundy

#210 Post by k s h i n » May 16th, 2020, 4:32 pm

Howard Cooper wrote:
May 16th, 2020, 4:25 pm
k s h i n wrote:
May 16th, 2020, 4:10 pm
dr0ch wrote:
May 16th, 2020, 9:02 am
like TCA, everyone has different levels of tolerance/sensitivity, so if one finds the wines enjoyable, that's great as the wines are relatively well-priced compared to other recent vintages.
This is why I try to avoid the topic. BTW, the 11s are a lot better than the 04s. The 04 like note was pretty strong in some of the wines in barrel.
I agree that 2011s are on average a lot better than 2004s on average. But, still 2011 IMHO is easily the worst vintage since after 2004.
I said this from the beginning and got grilled. There simply was no reason to buy the 11, i.e. price and quality.
Kevin
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Re: Critical of the Critics - 2004 & 2011 Red Burgundy

#211 Post by Howard Cooper » May 16th, 2020, 5:16 pm

The only 2011s I bought were for purposes of keeping allocations, etc.
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Re: Critical of the Critics - 2004 & 2011 Red Burgundy

#212 Post by Jayson Cohen » May 16th, 2020, 5:30 pm

I only bought a small number of 2011s on release, cellared them, and haven’t looked back. From Chevillon and Pousse D’Or. I still consider them young and hadn’t intended to open them soon. Is there any reason to doubt they will age comfortably for another 5-15 years?

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Re: Critical of the Critics - 2004 & 2011 Red Burgundy

#213 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng » May 16th, 2020, 7:00 pm

I think the only bottles of 11 I have is one barthod cras I got for $100 and one bottle of Rossignol caillerets.

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Re: Critical of the Critics - 2004 & 2011 Red Burgundy

#214 Post by Marc Frontario » May 16th, 2020, 7:07 pm

Gaudissabois Johan wrote:
May 16th, 2020, 7:14 am
Friends,

i fully agree with Robert Sand. 2011 may be the best vintage for drinking now so that the 2009s, 2010s etc.. can fully come round. Comparing 2011 to 2004 it is the other way round whenever "greenness" is concerned. With 2004 it was not there from the start but it showed up in practically every wine shortly afterwards. That does not imply all 2004s were undrinkable. I had lots of good wines but I always disliked the greenness in them. With 2011 it was there from the beginning with a in my view limited number of wines but it is no longer visible now. And, I repeat it is an ideal vintage for drinking now. I will be tasting lots of 2011s in the near future. One tasting alongside Master of Wine Jan De Clerck (the only MW we have in Belgium). As I said : I'll keep you lot posted. It is of course ALWAYS intersting to hear from tasters who had different experiences. But Id love to hear what wines/domaines we are talking about where greenness was detected.

SINCERELY JOHAN
2011 has some lovely wines and yes, many seem to be drinking well now
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Re: Critical of the Critics - 2004 & 2011 Red Burgundy

#215 Post by Thomas De Waen » May 16th, 2020, 9:30 pm

Gaudissabois Johan wrote:
May 16th, 2020, 7:14 am
Friends,

One tasting alongside Master of Wine Jan De Clerck (the only MW we have in Belgium). As I said : I'll keep you lot posted. It is of course ALWAYS intersting to hear from tasters who had different experiences. But Id love to hear what wines/domaines we are talking about where greenness was detected.

SINCERELY JOHAN
The formidable Fiona Morrisson MW would dispute that :-)

She’s been living in Belgium for over 20 years and, though not born here, is a Belgian citizen.

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Re: Critical of the Critics - 2004 & 2011 Red Burgundy

#216 Post by Gaudissabois Johan » May 17th, 2020, 2:20 am

Dear Thomas,

Of course you are right about Fiona. Besides my friends recently met her when she introduced her book on famous viticulteurs (with a.o. vicomte Liger Belair in it). But I don't consider her a Belgian. Is she really??????
SINCERELY JOHAN

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Re: Critical of the Critics - 2004 & 2011 Red Burgundy

#217 Post by Fred C » May 17th, 2020, 6:19 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
May 16th, 2020, 4:25 pm
k s h i n wrote:
May 16th, 2020, 4:10 pm
dr0ch wrote:
May 16th, 2020, 9:02 am
like TCA, everyone has different levels of tolerance/sensitivity, so if one finds the wines enjoyable, that's great as the wines are relatively well-priced compared to other recent vintages.
This is why I try to avoid the topic. BTW, the 11s are a lot better than the 04s. The 04 like note was pretty strong in some of the wines in barrel.
I agree that 2011s are on average a lot better than 2004s on average. But, still 2011 IMHO is easily the worst vintage since after 2004.
I agree with Howard here. I think 07 is not only drinking better now but has room to improve.
Ch!3n

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Re: Critical of the Critics - 2004 & 2011 Red Burgundy

#218 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng » May 17th, 2020, 6:53 am

This is what I posted in the other resurrected thread.

My latest red burg vintage rankings based on recent drinking, with approximate stratification within tiers: I didn’t include 18 because I haven’t really had any yet.

Note that the last 3 releases have all been within the top 7 vintages, it’s been a good run.

Top tier:
2010 (best current and long term)
1999 (drinking well, but more maturely than 10, still has good aging potential)
2005 (most potential, but not ready)
2015 = 2009 (similar vintages, ripe but will likely age well)
2016 classic, structured, good potential

Second Tier:
2017
2012
2014
2002

Third Tier:
2001
2007
2000

Fourth Tier:
2008
2006
2013

Bottom Tier:
2003
2011
2004

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Re: Critical of the Critics - 2004 & 2011 Red Burgundy

#219 Post by Mike Grammer » May 17th, 2020, 8:20 am

dcornutt wrote:
May 16th, 2020, 10:15 am
Drouhin Musigny was affected in 2004. It was terrifically green the last time I tasted it. FWIW.
The one taste I had of Comte de Vogues, it didn't escape either.

I have had virtually no flawed 2011 reds, but at the same time, have had almost no memorable bottles from that vintage either. The one exception, from a couple years ago:

2011 Marquis D’Angerville Volnay Champans

Jeff brought this and it was a fantastic chance to taste different plots and vintages along with my 05 Taillepieds. I can’t say I got a ton of Volnay typicity, missing mid-dark fruit and earthy bits and the velvet glove feel, but wow---can any 2011 red be better than this? Such gorgeous clarity of fruit and it doesn’t go away the whole night. Purest sweet raspberry and crabapple, it slides *effortlessly* down the throat. This is luminous, has real star power and has to be a candidate for my wine of the vintage. Blind? I would surely have guessed an 02 or 10 Vosne or Echezeaux. WOTN and perhaps reaches a 92 score for me.
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Re: Critical of the Critics - 2004 & 2011 Red Burgundy

#220 Post by Marcu$ Stanley » May 17th, 2020, 10:03 am

Meadows (Burghound) rates 2011 an average vintage for reds, better than 2013 and equal to 2012, 2014, 2006, 2007, 2008 etc.

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Re: Critical of the Critics - 2004 & 2011 Red Burgundy

#221 Post by Marcu$ Stanley » May 17th, 2020, 10:05 am

Mich@el Ch@ng wrote:
May 17th, 2020, 6:53 am
This is what I posted in the other resurrected thread.

My latest red burg vintage rankings based on recent drinking, with approximate stratification within tiers: I didn’t include 18 because I haven’t really had any yet.

Note that the last 3 releases have all been within the top 7 vintages, it’s been a good run.

Top tier:
2010 (best current and long term)
1999 (drinking well, but more maturely than 10, still has good aging potential)
2005 (most potential, but not ready)
2015 = 2009 (similar vintages, ripe but will likely age well)
2016 classic, structured, good potential

I bought some 2015 hoping it would be like 2009, which is a vintage I love, but in my limited experience so far has not been so similar -- 2015s are more structured, less giving, tannins are more intrusive and the wines are to some degree shutting down which 2009 did not. But I don't buy really widely so the experience of others may differ.

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Re: Critical of the Critics - 2004 & 2011 Red Burgundy

#222 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng » May 17th, 2020, 10:15 am

Marcu$ Stanley wrote:
May 17th, 2020, 10:03 am
Meadows (Burghound) rates 2011 an average vintage for reds, better than 2013 and equal to 2012, 2014, 2006, 2007, 2008 etc.
That’s nice, I’m sure hardly anyone here who’s had the wines would agree.

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Re: Critical of the Critics - 2004 & 2011 Red Burgundy

#223 Post by Marcu$ Stanley » May 17th, 2020, 10:16 am

The market doesn't agree either, but Meadows tastes a much greater range of wines than anyone of us here so who knows?

Just as much as his 2011 rating the fact that he rated 2012 and 2014 as sort of ho-hum average vintages surprised me a bit.
Last edited by Marcu$ Stanley on May 17th, 2020, 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Critical of the Critics - 2004 & 2011 Red Burgundy

#224 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng » May 17th, 2020, 10:16 am

Marcu$ Stanley wrote:
May 17th, 2020, 10:05 am
Mich@el Ch@ng wrote:
May 17th, 2020, 6:53 am
This is what I posted in the other resurrected thread.

My latest red burg vintage rankings based on recent drinking, with approximate stratification within tiers: I didn’t include 18 because I haven’t really had any yet.

Note that the last 3 releases have all been within the top 7 vintages, it’s been a good run.

Top tier:
2010 (best current and long term)
1999 (drinking well, but more maturely than 10, still has good aging potential)
2005 (most potential, but not ready)
2015 = 2009 (similar vintages, ripe but will likely age well)
2016 classic, structured, good potential

I bought some 2015 hoping it would be like 2009, which is a vintage I love, but in my limited experience so far has not been so similar -- 2015s are more structured, less giving, tannins are more intrusive and the wines are to some degree shutting down which 2009 did not. But I don't buy really widely so the experience of others may differ.
Structured compared to what? Certainly not 14 or 16. You could argue they’re more structured than 17 and I wouldn’t disagree.

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Re: Critical of the Critics - 2004 & 2011 Red Burgundy

#225 Post by Marcu$ Stanley » May 17th, 2020, 10:18 am

Structured compared to 2009. Or, 2009 definitely has plenty of underlying structure but I didn't find it an intrusive structure, the wines never really shut down IME (again limited experience).

2002 and 2009 have been my favorite Burgundy vintages because they have great fruit but a light touch, and I'm not finding 2015 to share that light touch, at least so far

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Re: Critical of the Critics - 2004 & 2011 Red Burgundy

#226 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng » May 17th, 2020, 11:11 am

What producers are you referring to? I haven’t found that and I’ve had a lot of 15 burgs; probably 40-50 diff 1er and a handful of GC.

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Re: Critical of the Critics - 2004 & 2011 Red Burgundy

#227 Post by Howard Cooper » May 17th, 2020, 12:00 pm

Marcu$ Stanley wrote:
May 17th, 2020, 10:16 am
The market doesn't agree either, but Meadows tastes a much greater range of wines than anyone of us here so who knows?

Just as much as his 2011 rating the fact that he rated 2012 and 2014 as sort of ho-hum average vintages surprised me a bit.
In the 10 years of 2008-17, the vintages 2009, 2010, 2015 and 2016 are probably better than 2012 and 2014 and 2007, 2008 and 2011 are probably worse than those vintages. 2012 and 2014 are in the middle with 2017. In wine terms that makes that excellent to outstanding vintages, but in any other terms, it puts them (at least over the last 10 years) in the middle, or average.

Please note that I am not condemning these vintages. I have a good bit of wine from 2012, 2014 and some from 2017 (I have less from 2017 because I am buying less wine due to age - mine) and from 2007 and 2008, but they are, in fact, average vintages in the context of the last 10 years.

We are very lucky in terms of Burgundy vintages these days. 2012 and 2014 would be much higher in the pecking order in the 1970s or 1980s.
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Re: Critical of the Critics - 2004 & 2011 Red Burgundy

#228 Post by Marcu$ Stanley » May 17th, 2020, 12:06 pm

Mich@el Ch@ng wrote:
May 17th, 2020, 11:11 am
What producers are you referring to? I haven’t found that and I’ve had a lot of 15 burgs; probably 40-50 diff 1er and a handful of GC.
Bouchard, Chevillon, and Jadot -- I do not drink as wide a range of producers as you.

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Re: Critical of the Critics - 2004 & 2011 Red Burgundy

#229 Post by Thomas Keim » May 17th, 2020, 12:52 pm

Oh, great timing - just pulled out a couple of Henri Jouan's 2004s - the Morey St-Denis and the Chambolle Musigny. Trying to clear out some room in the cellar, and these are my last bottles of each. I always felt they were some of the best wines of the '04 vintage - but haven't popped one in 2-3 years.
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Re: Critical of the Critics - 2004 & 2011 Red Burgundy

#230 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng » May 17th, 2020, 2:46 pm

Marcu$ Stanley wrote:
May 17th, 2020, 12:06 pm
Mich@el Ch@ng wrote:
May 17th, 2020, 11:11 am
What producers are you referring to? I haven’t found that and I’ve had a lot of 15 burgs; probably 40-50 diff 1er and a handful of GC.
Bouchard, Chevillon, and Jadot -- I do not drink as wide a range of producers as you.
I’m not sure those producers are the best to visit early for the 15s.

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Re: Critical of the Critics - 2004 & 2011 Red Burgundy

#231 Post by Marcus Dean » May 17th, 2020, 2:57 pm

Marcu$ Stanley wrote:
May 17th, 2020, 10:16 am
The market doesn't agree either, but Meadows tastes a much greater range of wines than anyone of us here so who knows?

Just as much as his 2011 rating the fact that he rated 2012 and 2014 as sort of ho-hum average vintages surprised me a bit.
I think you need to read the full descriptions given for 12 and 14 rather than just go with the star rating. Allen states that his overall rating for 14 is pulled down by the hail in the CdB and that the CdN wines might eventually rate at 4 stars. For 2012 he states that Gevrey was the village that hit the sweetspot.

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Re: Critical of the Critics - 2004 & 2011 Red Burgundy

#232 Post by c fu » May 17th, 2020, 5:46 pm

Mich@el Ch@ng wrote:
May 17th, 2020, 11:11 am
What producers are you referring to? I haven’t found that and I’ve had a lot of 15 burgs; probably 40-50 diff 1er and a handful of GC.
15 is a pretty structured vintage, nowhere near as plush and fruity as 09 was (since you compared it to 09)
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Re: Critical of the Critics - 2004 & 2011 Red Burgundy

#233 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng » May 17th, 2020, 6:05 pm

c fu wrote:
May 17th, 2020, 5:46 pm
Mich@el Ch@ng wrote:
May 17th, 2020, 11:11 am
What producers are you referring to? I haven’t found that and I’ve had a lot of 15 burgs; probably 40-50 diff 1er and a handful of GC.
15 is a pretty structured vintage, nowhere near as plush and fruity as 09 was (since you compared it to 09)
We did an 09/15 tasting last year with clavelier Combe de orveau, Rossignol caillerets, Drouhin Clos de mouches, and Chevillon cailles and the wines were more similar than different. Haven’t done it with GC tho.

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Re: Critical of the Critics - 2004 & 2011 Red Burgundy

#234 Post by Marcu$ Stanley » May 17th, 2020, 6:14 pm

c fu wrote:
May 17th, 2020, 5:46 pm
Mich@el Ch@ng wrote:
May 17th, 2020, 11:11 am
What producers are you referring to? I haven’t found that and I’ve had a lot of 15 burgs; probably 40-50 diff 1er and a handful of GC.
15 is a pretty structured vintage, nowhere near as plush and fruity as 09 was (since you compared it to 09)
exactly, thank you. Like 2009 plus a pinch of 2005.

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Re: Critical of the Critics - 2004 & 2011 Red Burgundy

#235 Post by k s h i n » May 17th, 2020, 7:30 pm

Marcu$ Stanley wrote:
May 17th, 2020, 10:16 am
The market doesn't agree either, but Meadows tastes a much greater range of wines than anyone of us here so who knows?

Just as much as his 2011 rating the fact that he rated 2012 and 2014 as sort of ho-hum average vintages surprised me a bit.
The 12 is an excellent vintage especially at the top. The 14 is the vintage for the Burgundy purists.
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Re: Critical of the Critics - 2004 & 2011 Red Burgundy

#236 Post by Mike Grammer » May 18th, 2020, 5:24 am

Purist--raises hand :) I have really enjoyed the 14 reds I've had (the whites are, of course, fantastic), though no GCs yet tried. 12 has been up and down for me but mostly good, with some great. A Camille Giroud MSD Les Chaffots recently was luminous, e.g.
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Re: Critical of the Critics - 2004 & 2011 Red Burgundy

#237 Post by billnanson » May 18th, 2020, 6:34 am

I have had many beautiful 2011s and even bought some - no surprise that they are drinking far better than 2013 right now, though I put more money on the well-triaged 'crystalline' 12s - but absolutely nothing in the cellar from 2011 that I didn't taste first. As somebody else in this thread noted, other peoples' notes are useless if you are particularly sensitive. I simply laugh when somebody says x or y is 'clean' - though obviously less loudly than when they say the same about 2004s ;-)

Allen quizzed me at a tasting of 11s as to whether I thought there was pyrazine, to which I answered 'yes, often' - because he isn't particularly sensitive.
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Re: Critical of the Critics - 2004 & 2011 Red Burgundy

#238 Post by Nathan V. » May 18th, 2020, 8:30 am

billnanson wrote:
May 18th, 2020, 6:34 am
I have had many beautiful 2011s and even bought some - no surprise that they are drinking far better than 2013 right now, though I put more money on the well-triaged 'crystalline' 12s - but absolutely nothing in the cellar from 2011 that I didn't taste first. As somebody else in this thread noted, other peoples' notes are useless if you are particularly sensitive. I simply laugh when somebody says x or y is 'clean' - though obviously less loudly than when they say the same about 2004s ;-)

Allen quizzed me at a tasting of 11s as to whether I thought there was pyrazine, to which I answered 'yes, often' - because he isn't particularly sensitive.
Pyrazines are a complex issue. I would say that they are a natural component of some wines that wouldn't taste right without them. I'm generally not looking for that in Burgundy. Although I do also have whole cluster producers in my cellar, none from 2011. From the producers I have, I've had a lot of luck with 2011. It's much more approachable than surrounding vintages/wines from the same producers. I've always thought the "ladybug/green meenie" thing was overblown hyperbole without any real evidence. That being said, 2011 isn't a great vintage but a very useful one though it only makes up 2% of the red Burgundy I own.

Here are some 2011s that I've had over the last few years.

Excellent
2011 Domaine Georges Mugneret-Gibourg Echezeaux 
2011 Domaine Georges Mugneret-Gibourg Ruchottes-Chambertin 

Very Good
2011 Domaine Rollin Père et Fils Pernand-Vergelesses 1er Cru Ile des Vergelesses (2019 bottle, this was a particularly impressive and surprising showing)
2011 Domaine Georges Mugneret-Gibourg Vosne-Romanée 
2011 Domaine Georges Mugneret-Gibourg Nuits St. Georges 1er Cru Les Chaignots (2019 bottle)
2011 Domaine Louis Boillot et Fils Gevrey-Chambertin 1er Cru Champonnets 

Good
2011 Domaine Georges Mugneret-Gibourg Nuits St. Georges 1er Cru Les Chaignots (2017 bottle)
2011 Domaine Ghislaine Barthod / Barthod-Noëllat Bourgogne Les Bons Bâtons 

Meh
2011 Domaine Rollin Père et Fils Pernand-Vergelesses 1er Cru Ile des Vergelesses  (2017 bottle)
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billnanson
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Re: Critical of the Critics - 2004 & 2011 Red Burgundy

#239 Post by billnanson » May 18th, 2020, 9:14 am

Hi Nathan.
Yes, there's a pyrazine 'character' in many Beaujolais - more in cooler vintages but still plenty in hot ones too - but it's practically floral, or at least very closely associated to florals - very different on the 'meh' scale to 04 and 11 burgundies.
Did you like the Dr Georges' wines from 2004?
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Markus S
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Re: Critical of the Critics - 2004 & 2011 Red Burgundy

#240 Post by Markus S » May 18th, 2020, 11:04 am

Mich@el Ch@ng wrote:
May 17th, 2020, 6:53 am
Fourth Tier:
2008
2006
2013

Bottom Tier:
2003
2011
2004
So what does one *DO* with these fourth and 5th tiers...chuck them out? Depending on producer, I would certainly drink them.
$ _ € ® e . k @

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Re: Critical of the Critics - 2004 & 2011 Red Burgundy

#241 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng » May 18th, 2020, 11:20 am

Markus S wrote:
May 18th, 2020, 11:04 am
Mich@el Ch@ng wrote:
May 17th, 2020, 6:53 am
Fourth Tier:
2008
2006
2013

Bottom Tier:
2003
2011
2004
So what does one *DO* with these fourth and 5th tiers...chuck them out? Depending on producer, I would certainly drink them.
I've been a buyer of some of the fourth tier wines, certainly, at the right price. I've put together a little stash of 13 rousseau and roumier at pretty much bargain basement pricing.

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Re: Critical of the Critics - 2004 & 2011 Red Burgundy

#242 Post by Nathan V. » May 18th, 2020, 11:29 am

billnanson wrote:
May 18th, 2020, 9:14 am
Hi Nathan.
Yes, there's a pyrazine 'character' in many Beaujolais - more in cooler vintages but still plenty in hot ones too - but it's practically floral, or at least very closely associated to florals - very different on the 'meh' scale to 04 and 11 burgundies.
Did you like the Dr Georges' wines from 2004?
I was thinking more about Loire reds than Beaujolais but, yes, there is a bit of that from gamay as well especially in whole-cluster wines.

I don't have any records of 2004 Mugneret and I missed several vintages because I lost my supply for 2003-2006 (so sadly missed 2005 and I don't love buying on the secondary market). I did taste both 2004 and 2005 from barrel and was not fond of 2004 at all. The wines were doomed from the start with a combination of thin skins that weren't fully ripe but with plenty of alcohol. I've always suspected more strange esters from the damnable combination of under-ripeness and alcohol than ladybugs (ladybugs aren't unique to 2004) but I know you think differently.
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Re: Critical of the Critics - 2004 & 2011 Red Burgundy

#243 Post by Brady Daniels » May 18th, 2020, 5:43 pm

I posted the following excerpt to another thread, but it seems more appropriate here:

I am nervous about 2011. Multiple examples from a few producers have come across as prematurely aged. They seem older than any other 21st century burgs, though I don’t have recent experience with ‘01, ‘03, or ‘04. The two Fourrier PC’s we had were full of tertiary notes, and seemed fully mature. To be clear, I’m not talking about under-ripeness or green meanies, I’m talking about nine year wines that give the impression of twenty year old wines. I’ve considered starting a thread about this subject.

I have had two unusual 13’s recently, that also raised eyebrows, but not enough to draw conclusions. Has anyone else noticed a rotten fruit element in any 13’s? I hope they were just flukes.
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Re: Critical of the Critics - 2004 & 2011 Red Burgundy

#244 Post by Subu Ramachandran » May 18th, 2020, 6:03 pm

k s h i n wrote:
May 17th, 2020, 7:30 pm
Marcu$ Stanley wrote:
May 17th, 2020, 10:16 am
The market doesn't agree either, but Meadows tastes a much greater range of wines than anyone of us here so who knows?

Just as much as his 2011 rating the fact that he rated 2012 and 2014 as sort of ho-hum average vintages surprised me a bit.
The 12 is an excellent vintage especially at the top. The 14 is the vintage for the Burgundy purists.
Meadows gave it 4 stars for the red. People tend to give 5 stars for structured long term wines like 2005, which I wonder if it will come around in our lifetime. Many wines I have opened this and last year have been brutally closed and hard as nails. What's the point if you cant drink and enjoy it?

As I stated in other thread, as a burgundy lover I love 14s where the wines display signature of the vineyard. If you just want ripe fruit, there's plenty made around the world and cost a lot cheaper.

Many including Meadows, Gilman and Tanzer have expressed concerns on the purity of "higher ranking vineyards" in 2015.

I don't know what to say when anyone ranks 15s above 16s other than we have different tastes.

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Re: Critical of the Critics - 2004 & 2011 Red Burgundy

#245 Post by Robert Sand » May 19th, 2020, 12:35 am

Marcu$ Stanley wrote:
May 17th, 2020, 10:16 am
The market doesn't agree either, but Meadows tastes a much greater range of wines than anyone of us here so who knows?

Just as much as his 2011 rating the fact that he rated 2012 and 2014 as sort of ho-hum average vintages surprised me a bit.
I know Meadows opinion, I don´t agree, and 2011 being overall better than 2012 and 2014 is on the border of ridiculous.
However I don´t damn 2011, but I don´t praise it either more than appriopriate.

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Re: Critical of the Critics - 2004 & 2011 Red Burgundy

#246 Post by Tom Blach » May 19th, 2020, 3:51 am

Brady Daniels wrote:
May 18th, 2020, 5:43 pm
I posted the following excerpt to another thread, but it seems more appropriate here:

I am nervous about 2011. Multiple examples from a few producers have come across as prematurely aged. They seem older than any other 21st century burgs, though I don’t have recent experience with ‘01, ‘03, or ‘04. The two Fourrier PC’s we had were full of tertiary notes, and seemed fully mature. To be clear, I’m not talking about under-ripeness or green meanies, I’m talking about nine year wines that give the impression of twenty year old wines. I’ve considered starting a thread about this subject.

I remember thinking the same of 96s in 2005. Some vintages do seem to be ageing too fast at that age; it usually seems misleading in retrospect.
Vintage is far the least important variable in red burgundy, it seems to me, and is becoming less so all the time.

2004 for some reason was an astonishing vintage for Bourgogne Rouge.

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Re: Critical of the Critics - 2004 & 2011 Red Burgundy

#247 Post by Howard Cooper » May 19th, 2020, 4:23 am

k s h i n wrote:
May 17th, 2020, 7:30 pm
Marcu$ Stanley wrote:
May 17th, 2020, 10:16 am
The market doesn't agree either, but Meadows tastes a much greater range of wines than anyone of us here so who knows?

Just as much as his 2011 rating the fact that he rated 2012 and 2014 as sort of ho-hum average vintages surprised me a bit.
The 12 is an excellent vintage especially at the top. The 14 is the vintage for the Burgundy purists.
Stylistically, 2014 is a vintage I like. It reminds me of 2010 in style, although the wines are not nearly as good as the 2010s. IMHO, 2010 is a great vintage.
Howard

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Re: Critical of the Critics - 2004 & 2011 Red Burgundy

#248 Post by Howard Cooper » May 19th, 2020, 4:30 am

Mich@el Ch@ng wrote:
May 17th, 2020, 6:53 am
This is what I posted in the other resurrected thread.

My latest red burg vintage rankings based on recent drinking, with approximate stratification within tiers: I didn’t include 18 because I haven’t really had any yet.

Note that the last 3 releases have all been within the top 7 vintages, it’s been a good run.

Top tier:
2010 (best current and long term)
1999 (drinking well, but more maturely than 10, still has good aging potential)
2005 (most potential, but not ready)
2015 = 2009 (similar vintages, ripe but will likely age well)
2016 classic, structured, good potential

Second Tier:
2017
2012
2014
2002

Third Tier:
2001
2007
2000

Fourth Tier:
2008
2006
2013

Bottom Tier:
2003
2011
2004
My tiers would be a bit different:

First tier

1999
2005
2010

Second tier

2001
2009
2015
2016

Third tier

2012
2014
2017 [torn between putting this in third tier or fourth tier. Time will tell.]

Fourth tier

2000
2002
2003
2007
2008
2013

Fifth tier

2006

Sixth tier

2011

Seventh tier

2004
Howard

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Re: Critical of the Critics - 2004 & 2011 Red Burgundy

#249 Post by A Songeur » May 19th, 2020, 6:08 am

Brady Daniels wrote:
May 18th, 2020, 5:43 pm
I posted the following excerpt to another thread, but it seems more appropriate here:

I am nervous about 2011. Multiple examples from a few producers have come across as prematurely aged. They seem older than any other 21st century burgs, though I don’t have recent experience with ‘01, ‘03, or ‘04. The two Fourrier PC’s we had were full of tertiary notes, and seemed fully mature. To be clear, I’m not talking about under-ripeness or green meanies, I’m talking about nine year wines that give the impression of twenty year old wines. I’ve considered starting a thread about this subject.

I have had two unusual 13’s recently, that also raised eyebrows, but not enough to draw conclusions. Has anyone else noticed a rotten fruit element in any 13’s? I hope they were just flukes.
I agree with Brady about early maturity... but not sure whether this is a good or a bad thing. Have had a Vosne les reignots from Laurent 2011 2 days ago and yesterday and yes mature but so good... I would not wait for further development... when it is that good.
To a lesser extend, I also think quite a few 2010 are quite drinkable at age 9.5...
Antoine

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Re: Critical of the Critics - 2004 & 2011 Red Burgundy

#250 Post by Larry Link » May 19th, 2020, 4:18 pm

Marcu$ Stanley wrote:
May 17th, 2020, 10:03 am
Meadows (Burghound) rates 2011 an average vintage for reds, better than 2013 and equal to 2012, 2014, 2006, 2007, 2008 etc.
For my tastes, 2011 is below all of these vintages. Not that I am a follower of Gilman, but I get a chuckle out of the title of his vintage report:

The Extremely Elegant, Low Octane and Unquestionably Outstanding 2011 Vintage in Burgundy

"Unquestionably"?

As an aside, my small group of experienced Burgundy tasters did a virtual Clos Vougeot tasting last night, we each contributed a Vougeot and tasted them together over Zoom for 1 hour, ranked them 1 to 5 and tried to guess the vintage and producer. None of knew what producer or vintage the other guys provided ahead of time. We ended up with 98 Meo, 01 Meo, 06 Meo, 09 Faiveley and 11 Ponsot (I didn't know he produced a Vougeot). Luckily a great spread of vintages combined with a fun Meo horizontal. The 2011 came in dead last (1 4th place vote, 4 5th place votes), and several of us Id'd the vintage. To my taste it was the youngest wine and frankly not very good, full of pine resin and pickle juice on the nose with a lean and astringent palate. Just one wine, but from a good producer, and it was the clear runt of the litter last night.

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