CHAMBOLLE-MUSIGNY 1er Cru question

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Robert Sand
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#1 Post by Robert Sand » July 22nd, 2013, 8:11 am

If you´d have to choose (only) five different representative Premier Crus from Ch-M - from 5 different producers -
which ones?
One restriction: NO Vogüé (because it is so self-evident)

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#2 Post by Berry Crawford » July 22nd, 2013, 8:20 am

Bertheau Charmes
Barthod Cras
Mugnier les Fuees
Drouhin Chambolle 1er (or Amoureuses if you can find it and afford it)
Dujac Les Gruenchers (Or Fourrier for the same vineyard)

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#3 Post by Mike de Lange » July 22nd, 2013, 10:19 am

Berry made some good choices already. I'd have to add:

Clavelier Combe d'Orveau
Mugneret-Gibourg Feusselottes
Barthod Veroilles, for those who are into minerally dominated wines
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#4 Post by dcornutt » July 22nd, 2013, 10:32 am

Mugnier Amoureuses
Drouhin Baudes
Mugneret-Gibourg Feusselottes
Barthod Cras
Bertheau Charmes
DON Cornutt

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#5 Post by Ian Dorin » July 22nd, 2013, 10:32 am

I'd add Faiveley Combe D'Orveau too.
Roumier Les Cras if it wasn't so expensive.
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#6 Post by Ian Dorin » July 22nd, 2013, 10:33 am

dcornutt wrote:Drouhin Baudes
When it's made of course.....Love this wine, a lot.
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#7 Post by Michael Bowden » July 22nd, 2013, 11:47 am

Robert Sand wrote:One restriction: NO Vogüé (because it is so self-evident)
There are a lot of Vogue haters out there...so, I wouldn't say its that self-evident.
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#8 Post by Gerhard P. » July 22nd, 2013, 12:54 pm

Mugnier Amoureuses or Fuées
Perrot-Minot (or Clavelier) Combe d´Orveau
Dujac Gruenchers
Ponsot Charmes (but not 1996/97)
Barthod Cras
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#9 Post by Keith Levenberg » July 22nd, 2013, 1:10 pm

Michael Bowden wrote:
Robert Sand wrote:One restriction: NO Vogüé (because it is so self-evident)
There are a lot of Vogue haters out there...so, I wouldn't say its that self-evident.
Yep, wouldn't be on my top five list.

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#10 Post by dbailey » July 22nd, 2013, 1:13 pm

Roumier cras
MG feuselottes
Ponsot charmes
Dan

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#11 Post by Harry Gruber » July 22nd, 2013, 1:43 pm

Michael Bowden wrote:
Robert Sand wrote:One restriction: NO Vogüé (because it is so self-evident)
There are a lot of Vogue haters out there...so, I wouldn't say its that self-evident.
Robert hasn't responded back to explain the comment, but the way I read it was that the Vogüé 1er cru is out of the running "because it is so self-evident" is because it's young vine Musigny, and thus doesn't speak to to what is a "representative" 1er cru. I would think this would be even more the case with the Vogüé 1er cru than with the "generic" 1er crus from, e.g., Bertheau, Drouhin, Lecheneaut, etc., where there is blending of two or more "true" 1er crus rather than declassified Grand Cru.
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#12 Post by Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow » July 22nd, 2013, 2:17 pm

Patrice Rion's "Les Charmes" is a wonderful wine vintage after vintage.
Hubert Lignier's "Les Baudes" was quite good.
Both the Amoureuses and the Cras from Roumier are always tops.
Mugnier's Fuees used to be a great value....as did the Roumier Cras.

As much as I love the Mugneret Gibourg wines.....I don't think that their Feuselottes is a great Chambolle...

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#13 Post by Tom Blach » July 22nd, 2013, 2:28 pm

Faiveley Combe D'Orveaux and Fuees under the old regime, sensational and grossly underappreciated wines, Clavelier Combe D'Orveaux, Barthod Veroilles for the Bonnes Mares axis and Remy Derriere La Grange.

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#14 Post by Harry Gruber » July 22nd, 2013, 2:43 pm

Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow wrote:Patrice Rion's "Les Charmes" is a wonderful wine vintage after vintage.
Hubert Lignier's "Les Baudes" was quite good.
Both the Amoureuses and the Cras from Roumier are always tops.
Mugnier's Fuees used to be a great value....as did the Roumier Cras.

As much as I love the Mugneret Gibourg wines.....I don't think that their Feuselottes is a great Chambolle...
Curious; what's your beef with their Feuselottes? Inferior vineyard to be rated a 1er cru, or just that the sister's winemaking in this instance does not result in an ideal Chambolle (whatever that is)? I haven't had the Rion yet (I've got a few bottles of the 02 slumbering, though) but I've had the Lignier Baudes and the Roumier Cras. I've enjoyed them both, but they seem to be examples of the denser, more structured, expression of Chambolle, whereas the Mugneret-Gibourg Feuselottes strikes me as being (for lack of better descriptors) more lithe, winsome, and feminine.
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#15 Post by Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow » July 22nd, 2013, 3:21 pm

Well..Harry...no beef....per se. It's just that I've always found it the weak link in their lineup. Maybe too acidic...when they first started making it with the 1986 vintage....and I've never been wowed by it. To be clear...I've been wowed by almost everything they otherwise make..from their great Bourgogne to Vosne villages..to Nuits Chaignots and Vignes Rondes...to their superb grand crus....so....I think it's the comparison with the rest of the stable there. Never really tried the Feuselottes vis a vis others' Chambolles...which might be the problem.

I think early on (the '86 vintage I remember tasting in barrel; it was their first with it)..maybe the vines weren't that old....and maybe I formed a prejudice then....

I have to say I do like the "denser, more structured expressions" with the Chambolle grace....

Time to pull one out...though..and will report back...though I 'm not sure what I have that's "mature"....

It certainly isn't the sisters' winemaking...as when I first tasted it, their father was there..and the sisters were uninvolved in the winemaking....in 1988..though I met both of them as Dr. Georges was clearly dying....so...maybe the holding.

Rambling way of saying...no beef...just not sure why it's rarely impressed me..though the 2005 was "to die for".

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#16 Post by Mike de Lange » July 22nd, 2013, 11:01 pm

Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow wrote:Well..Harry...no beef....per se. It's just that I've always found it the weak link in their lineup. Maybe too acidic...when they first started making it with the 1986 vintage....and I've never been wowed by it. To be clear...I've been wowed by almost everything they otherwise make..from their great Bourgogne to Vosne villages..to Nuits Chaignots and Vignes Rondes...to their superb grand crus....so....I think it's the comparison with the rest of the stable there. Never really tried the Feuselottes vis a vis others' Chambolles...which might be the problem.

I think early on (the '86 vintage I remember tasting in barrel; it was their first with it)..maybe the vines weren't that old....and maybe I formed a prejudice then....

I have to say I do like the "denser, more structured expressions" with the Chambolle grace....

Both the Mugniers and Roumiers are wonderful, but their prices are being driven up to heights where they can't really be called representative any longer.
Time to pull one out...though..and will report back...though I 'm not sure what I have that's "mature"....

It certainly isn't the sisters' winemaking...as when I first tasted it, their father was there..and the sisters were uninvolved in the winemaking....in 1988..though I met both of them as Dr. Georges was clearly dying....so...maybe the holding.

Rambling way of saying...no beef...just not sure why it's rarely impressed me..though the 2005 was "to die for".
Stuart,

The M-G Feusselottes 2011 was a real knock-out from cask and so have been bottled samples from the 1996-2009 era. Of course, I never tasted anything older.
I thought about including the Rion Charmes, but figured you would... [wink.gif] I only tasted it once -the 2002- and it was indeed very good.
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#17 Post by Robert Sand » July 23rd, 2013, 4:04 am

Harry Gruber wrote:
Michael Bowden wrote:
Robert Sand wrote:One restriction: NO Vogüé (because it is so self-evident)
There are a lot of Vogue haters out there...so, I wouldn't say its that self-evident.
Robert hasn't responded back to explain the comment, but the way I read it was that the Vogüé 1er cru is out of the running "because it is so self-evident" is because it's young vine Musigny, and thus doesn't speak to to what is a "representative" 1er cru.
I´ve meant the Vogüé Amoureuses as well as the (declassified GC) Premier Cru - and for me both are sure candidates for the top Chambolle (designated) 1er Crus. However I was interested in other suggestions - and moreover I am not so sure that there are that many Vogüé-haters (however - this shouldn´t be a Vogüe thread at all)

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#18 Post by Herwig Janssen » July 23rd, 2013, 4:41 am

Amoureuses from le Moine

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#19 Post by A Yambor » July 23rd, 2013, 3:28 pm

Groffier Les Amoureuses
Mugnier Les Fuees
Roumier Cras
Clavelier Combe d'Orveau
Thibault Liger-Belair Les Greunchers
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#20 Post by c fu » July 23rd, 2013, 3:41 pm

Bertheau Amoureuses!? This wine is killer. Surprised no one listed it yet.
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#21 Post by Harry Gruber » July 23rd, 2013, 4:10 pm

Charlie Fu wrote:Bertheau Amoureuses!? This wine is killer. Surprised no one listed it yet.
Based on my experiences with the old man's Charmes and generic 1er cru, I'd certainly recommend those. I'd still like to hear from anyone who has had experience with Bertheau's wines from both the old and the new regime....how has the youngster changed the style, assuming he has?
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#22 Post by c fu » July 23rd, 2013, 4:39 pm

Harry Gruber wrote:
Charlie Fu wrote:Bertheau Amoureuses!? This wine is killer. Surprised no one listed it yet.
Based on my experiences with the old man's Charmes and generic 1er cru, I'd certainly recommend those. I'd still like to hear from anyone who has had experience with Bertheau's wines from both the old and the new regime....how has the youngster changed the style, assuming he has?
I had a 2006 recently that was so pretty. The nose was just full of flowers and light spice. Could smell it for days. The older wines from early 90's, i've had the BM. I didn't think their style is that different. Just well balanced wines. I really should buy more :X
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#23 Post by bruce curfman » July 27th, 2013, 1:16 pm

Both Cras and Varoilles from Barthod have been mentioned--and I certainly wouldn't disagree--but I think her Fuees and Charmes are just as worthy. Her other crus aren't that far off either.
I also agree with the 1er Crus of Drouhin and Bertheau. I've been trying to buy some of both every vintage recently. What about J.J. Confuron 1er Cru? I often wonder what the vineyard sources are for these "generic" 1er Crus, as they are often as good as many of the named crus. Presumably they are generic only in the sense that they are from such small holdings (except for Vogue) that they need to be combined to produce enough wine for a reasonable cuvée.
Any thoughts?

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#24 Post by Gerhard P. » July 27th, 2013, 1:41 pm

bruce curfman wrote: What about J.J. Confuron 1er Cru? I often wonder what the vineyard sources are for these "generic" 1er Crus, as they are often as good as many of the named crus.
From Chatelots (1/3) and Feusselottes (2/3) - together some 0.45 ha.
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#25 Post by Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow » July 27th, 2013, 2:15 pm

Harry Gruber wrote:
I've had the Lignier Baudes and the Roumier Cras. I've enjoyed them both, but they seem to be examples of the denser, more structured, expression of Chambolle, .
FWIW, had a Lignier Baudes '93 this week. Though you could tell it was from Chambolle, not Morey....it was indeed on the "denser, more structured" side, a la the Roumier Cras...and, also, the Patrice Rion Charmes...

I love all three...so...if they are "denser, more structured" expressions of Chambolle...count me as a fan of that style. (And, I'm more of a Vosne fan anyway...a '93 Rion VR Beaux Monts this week, also, was super....I think that village makes the most "complete" Burgs of the villages...)

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#26 Post by Harry Gruber » July 27th, 2013, 6:13 pm

Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow wrote:
Harry Gruber wrote:
I've had the Lignier Baudes and the Roumier Cras. I've enjoyed them both, but they seem to be examples of the denser, more structured, expression of Chambolle, .
FWIW, had a Lignier Baudes '93 this week. Though you could tell it was from Chambolle, not Morey....it was indeed on the "denser, more structured" side, a la the Roumier Cras...and, also, the Patrice Rion Charmes...

I love all three...so...if they are "denser, more structured" expressions of Chambolle...count me as a fan of that style. (And, I'm more of a Vosne fan anyway...a '93 Rion VR Beaux Monts this week, also, was super....I think that village makes the most "complete" Burgs of the villages...)
I like that style as well, put prefer the style I associated with the M-G Feusselotes, i.e., "lithe, winsome, and feminine," probably because it's more unique to Chambolle. I can find denser and more structured wines in Morey, Gevrey, Vosne, and NSG, but you'd be harder pressed to find winning wines made in the other style in those communes.
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#27 Post by Mike de Lange » July 28th, 2013, 1:01 am

bruce curfman wrote:Both Cras and Varoilles from Barthod have been mentioned--and I certainly wouldn't disagree--but I think her Fuees and Charmes are just as worthy. Her other crus aren't that far off either.
Bruce
Agreed, they are very good wines. The Charmes is indeed that -charming- and is often very nice around the 5-10 year mark, but doesn't really have the structure for aging as long as the Cras and Véroilles. The Fuées is pobably very close to those two in quality, but tends to develop a more robust and gamey character, not unlike Bonnes Mares. As it happens, both the Cras and Véroilles are situated in its direct vicinity as well, but are distinctly different to me. It's a matter of personal preference, I would say.
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#28 Post by Robert Sand » July 28th, 2013, 1:56 am

Hard to evaluate, but I think
Bertheau Charmes
Barthod Cras
Mugnier Fuees
Roumier Cras
got the most votes, followed by
Mugneret-G Feusselottes and Clavelier Combe d´Orveau
(interesting: no Amoureuses is a winner)

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#29 Post by Gerhard P. » July 28th, 2013, 2:14 am

Question: has anybody tasted
Ch-M 1er Cru Les Borniques / Magnien ?

Steve Levenberg reports that it is not dissimilar to Musigny GC - but I never had this 1er Cru.
Usually I´m not a big Magnien fan.
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#30 Post by Doug Lee » July 28th, 2013, 7:36 am

Of the wines I've tried:

Mugnier Fuees
Drouhin Amoureuses
Barthod Cras
Barthod Baudes
I like the Roumier village but of course it's not 1er.

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#31 Post by Robert Panzer » July 28th, 2013, 8:12 am

Hmmmmm....only 5, from 5 DIFFERENT producers...
That's a bit like saying, "take your pick of the most beautiful young women in the world, the top 5".

In any case:
Barthod Fuees
Bertheau Amoureuses
Roumier Amoureuses
LeMoine Haut Doix (I could say Amoureuses here too)
Perrot Minot Combe d'Orveau Ultra
If I could, i'd list several more....

As to people's preferences for "lithe, winsome, feminine" vs "denser structured", I've always found that the wines closer to and on the slope are airier and stonier, a reflection of the limestone driven character that Monsieur Millet of DeVogue rhapsodizes about (he often speaks of being able to visually see the limestone in the "fond du lac" of the wine). This nervous core of minerally acidity gives Chambolle its animating power, which along with its charming flesh makes such stunning, complex creatures. The 1er crus on the flats tend to be denser, darker in color, more tannin structure from their clayier soils. Drink a bottle of 'les Cras' next to a bottle of 'Charmes'. Some of Chambolle's yin and yang. Both beautiful, yet distinctly different. The effects of Terroir in motion!
I too (as a professed rock head) adore the airier stony terroirs. But I wouldn't turn down hardly anything that says Chambolle on the label......
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#32 Post by Harry Gruber » July 28th, 2013, 11:21 am

Robert Panzer wrote:Hmmmmm....only 5, from 5 DIFFERENT producers...
That's a bit like saying, "take your pick of the most beautiful young women in the world, the top 5".

In any case:
Barthod Fuees
Bertheau Amoureuses
Roumier Amoureuses
LeMoine Haut Doix (I could say Amoureuses here too)
Perrot Minot Combe d'Orveau Ultra
If I could, i'd list several more....

As to people's preferences for "lithe, winsome, feminine" vs "denser structured", I've always found that the wines closer to and on the slope are airier and stonier, a reflection of the limestone driven character that Monsieur Millet of DeVogue rhapsodizes about (he often speaks of being able to visually see the limestone in the "fond du lac" of the wine). This nervous core of minerally acidity gives Chambolle its animating power, which along with its charming flesh makes such stunning, complex creatures. The 1er crus on the flats tend to be denser, darker in color, more structured. Drink a bottle of 'les Cras' next to a bottle of 'Charmes'. Some of Chambolle's yin and yang. Both beautiful, yet distinctly different. The effects of Terroir in motion!
I too (as a professed rock head) adore the airier stony terroirs. But I wouldn't turn down hardly anything that says Chambolle on the label......
Beautifully phrased, Robert! Far superior to my "Venus vs. Mars"-like comparison.
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#33 Post by maureen nelson » July 28th, 2013, 3:41 pm

Harry Gruber wrote:
Charlie Fu wrote:Bertheau Amoureuses!? This wine is killer. Surprised no one listed it yet.
Based on my experiences with the old man's Charmes and generic 1er cru, I'd certainly recommend those. I'd still like to hear from anyone who has had experience with Bertheau's wines from both the old and the new regime....how has the youngster changed the style, assuming he has?
I was thinking the same thing - I loved the father's wines, at least after the late 1980s and I always thought the Bertheau Premier Cru was the best value in chambolle (well, roumier village too until it got expensive). I find the Amoureuses a bit soft compared to the 1er Cru and Charmes. I am not yet convinced by the son's wines.

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#34 Post by Harry Gruber » July 28th, 2013, 4:18 pm

maureen nelson wrote:
Harry Gruber wrote:
Charlie Fu wrote:Bertheau Amoureuses!? This wine is killer. Surprised no one listed it yet.
Based on my experiences with the old man's Charmes and generic 1er cru, I'd certainly recommend those. I'd still like to hear from anyone who has had experience with Bertheau's wines from both the old and the new regime....how has the youngster changed the style, assuming he has?
I was thinking the same thing - I loved the father's wines, at least after the late 1980s and I always thought the Bertheau Premier Cru was the best value in chambolle (well, roumier village too until it got expensive). I find the Amoureuses a bit soft compared to the 1er Cru and Charmes. I am not yet convinced by the son's wines.
Maureen,

The father's Bonnes Mares was also a great bargain for a GC. I'm assuming your comments re: the Amoureuses vis-a-vis the 1er Cru and Charmes relates to the father's wines. What is it about the son's wines that you find unconvincing so far?

Harry
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#35 Post by Stan Y. » August 10th, 2013, 12:46 pm

bruce curfman wrote:Both Cras and Varoilles from Barthod have been mentioned--and I certainly wouldn't disagree--but I think her Fuees and Charmes are just as worthy.
Has anyone seen these 2010s in the market recently? I've looked since release in June, found a little Cras by word-of-mouth, zip on wine-searcher, almost none locally. Please send me a PM if so; was able to track down just about everything I wanted in 2010 except these.
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Re: CHAMBOLLE-MUSIGNY 1er Cru question

#36 Post by Gaudissabois Johan » June 30th, 2020, 5:53 am

Maureen,

I agree with you on BERTHEAU. I would add that the wines sometimes are a bit too light ("feminine" whatever that may mean?) for me. They are of a different nature than say the wines of ROUMIER which are much fuller albeit not lacking in finesse. great stuff

SINCERELY JOHAN

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Re: CHAMBOLLE-MUSIGNY 1er Cru question

#37 Post by Peter Hirsch » June 30th, 2020, 6:27 am

Maybe easier to start with the Vineyard and Producer, separately and then figure out the producer for the vineyard?

Vineyard For me
Amoureuses
Cras
Fuees
Combe d'Orveau
For the 5th, I could be talked into a lot, but I'll go for Charmes.

Producer For me.
Roumier
Mugnier
Barthod
Clavelier
Groffier

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Re: CHAMBOLLE-MUSIGNY 1er Cru question

#38 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng » June 30th, 2020, 6:52 am

Barthod Fuees
Roumier Cras
Bertheau Charmes
Drouhin Amoureuses
Sigaut Sentiers

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Re: CHAMBOLLE-MUSIGNY 1er Cru question

#39 Post by Greg K » June 30th, 2020, 7:37 am

Mugnier Fuees for me by a considerable margin; one of the wines that I think despite their price are actually worth the tariff. Then, Roumier's Cras a clear #2 and Mugneret-Gibourg's Fuselottes third. After that, probably Bertheau's Charmes. I've had some very good Lignier's Baudes, though it's not really my preferred style of Chambolle; I love his Morey cuvees though.

I don't drink enough Amoureuses from any producer to be able to make a reasonable judgment either way, though I've had a couple of really good ones from Drouhin.
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Re: CHAMBOLLE-MUSIGNY 1er Cru question

#40 Post by Gaudissabois Johan » June 30th, 2020, 7:49 am

Mugnier AMOUREUSES, VOGÜE AMOUREUSES, ROUMIER AMOUREUSES, HUDELOT-BAILLET CHARMES, ROUMIER CRAS, HUDELOT-BAILLET CRAS, MUGNIER FUEES, BARTHOD CRAS, BARTHOD FUEES, BARRTHOD VEROILLES not always in that order but let's say "MOST OF THE TIME" (to quote the great BOB DYLAN)followed by BERTEAU AMOUREUSES and BERTEAU CHARMES

SINCERELY JOHAN

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Re: CHAMBOLLE-MUSIGNY 1er Cru question

#41 Post by Josh Najjar » June 30th, 2020, 5:07 pm

Mugnier - Les Fuees
Bertheau - Amoureuses
Drouhin - CM - Pre. Cru - (great 'sleeper' wine)

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Re: CHAMBOLLE-MUSIGNY 1er Cru question

#42 Post by Josh Najjar » July 6th, 2020, 1:47 pm

Tom Blach wrote:
July 22nd, 2013, 2:28 pm
Faiveley Combe D'Orveaux and Fuees under the old regime, sensational and grossly underappreciated wines, Clavelier Combe D'Orveaux, Barthod Veroilles for the Bonnes Mares axis and Remy Derriere La Grange.
Hi Tom,

What do you consider the last vintage of the old Faiveley regime ?

Thanks

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Re: CHAMBOLLE-MUSIGNY 1er Cru question

#43 Post by Josh Najjar » July 6th, 2020, 2:15 pm

Robert Panzer wrote:
July 28th, 2013, 8:12 am
Hmmmmm....only 5, from 5 DIFFERENT producers...
That's a bit like saying, "take your pick of the most beautiful young women in the world, the top 5".

In any case:
Barthod Fuees
Bertheau Amoureuses
Roumier Amoureuses
LeMoine Haut Doix (I could say Amoureuses here too)
Perrot Minot Combe d'Orveau Ultra
If I could, i'd list several more....

As to people's preferences for "lithe, winsome, feminine" vs "denser structured", I've always found that the wines closer to and on the slope are airier and stonier, a reflection of the limestone driven character that Monsieur Millet of DeVogue rhapsodizes about (he often speaks of being able to visually see the limestone in the "fond du lac" of the wine). This nervous core of minerally acidity gives Chambolle its animating power, which along with its charming flesh makes such stunning, complex creatures. The 1er crus on the flats tend to be denser, darker in color, more tannin structure from their clayier soils. Drink a bottle of 'les Cras' next to a bottle of 'Charmes'. Some of Chambolle's yin and yang. Both beautiful, yet distinctly different. The effects of Terroir in motion!
I too (as a professed rock head) adore the airier stony terroirs. But I wouldn't turn down hardly anything that says Chambolle on the label......

Very nice analysis.

Interestingly, the '02 Mugnier - Fuees, one of the loveliest Premier Crus I've had the pleasure to follow, has always had more of the red fruit persona as well as the ethereal 'gossamer wing' Chambolle minerality, that many of us love. In the last year or two I've noticed it's taken on a bit more of 'Bonnes Mares' character, reflecting it's position more to the north in the commune. Quite a fascinating combination. I admit my love for Musignys, but this is presently a spectacular wine in it's own right.

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Re: CHAMBOLLE-MUSIGNY 1er Cru question

#44 Post by Greg K » July 6th, 2020, 2:20 pm

Josh Najjar wrote:
July 6th, 2020, 2:15 pm
Robert Panzer wrote:
July 28th, 2013, 8:12 am
Hmmmmm....only 5, from 5 DIFFERENT producers...
That's a bit like saying, "take your pick of the most beautiful young women in the world, the top 5".

In any case:
Barthod Fuees
Bertheau Amoureuses
Roumier Amoureuses
LeMoine Haut Doix (I could say Amoureuses here too)
Perrot Minot Combe d'Orveau Ultra
If I could, i'd list several more....

As to people's preferences for "lithe, winsome, feminine" vs "denser structured", I've always found that the wines closer to and on the slope are airier and stonier, a reflection of the limestone driven character that Monsieur Millet of DeVogue rhapsodizes about (he often speaks of being able to visually see the limestone in the "fond du lac" of the wine). This nervous core of minerally acidity gives Chambolle its animating power, which along with its charming flesh makes such stunning, complex creatures. The 1er crus on the flats tend to be denser, darker in color, more tannin structure from their clayier soils. Drink a bottle of 'les Cras' next to a bottle of 'Charmes'. Some of Chambolle's yin and yang. Both beautiful, yet distinctly different. The effects of Terroir in motion!
I too (as a professed rock head) adore the airier stony terroirs. But I wouldn't turn down hardly anything that says Chambolle on the label......

Very nice analysis.

Interestingly, the '02 Mugnier - Fuees, one of the loveliest Premier Crus I've had the pleasure to follow, has always had more of the red fruit persona as well as the ethereal 'gossamer wing' Chambolle minerality, that many of us love. In the last year or two I've noticed it's taken on a bit more of 'Bonnes Mares' character, reflecting it's position more to the north in the commune. Quite a fascinating combination. I admit my love for Musignys, but this is presently a spectacular wine in it's own right.
Just had the 02 Mugnier Fuees a few weeks ago blind, and it blew away the rest of the field; not even close. The 2001 is also drinking well, though doesn't quite have the same balance or finesse.
Greg Kahn

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Re: CHAMBOLLE-MUSIGNY 1er Cru question

#45 Post by Michael Bowden » July 6th, 2020, 2:34 pm

Josh Najjar wrote:
July 6th, 2020, 1:47 pm
Tom Blach wrote:
July 22nd, 2013, 2:28 pm
Faiveley Combe D'Orveaux and Fuees under the old regime, sensational and grossly underappreciated wines, Clavelier Combe D'Orveaux, Barthod Veroilles for the Bonnes Mares axis and Remy Derriere La Grange.
Hi Tom,

What do you consider the last vintage of the old Faiveley regime ?

Thanks
Not Tom but 05/06 are last two old regime Faiveley vintages - big shift in 07.
I'm taller than Zach Lang.

It's Michael.....not Mike, Mark, Mick, Mikey...get it? got it? good.

Good fries are better than great tater tots.

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Re: CHAMBOLLE-MUSIGNY 1er Cru question

#46 Post by Tomás Costa » July 6th, 2020, 3:01 pm

Michael Bowden wrote:
July 6th, 2020, 2:34 pm
Josh Najjar wrote:
July 6th, 2020, 1:47 pm
Tom Blach wrote:
July 22nd, 2013, 2:28 pm
Faiveley Combe D'Orveaux and Fuees under the old regime, sensational and grossly underappreciated wines, Clavelier Combe D'Orveaux, Barthod Veroilles for the Bonnes Mares axis and Remy Derriere La Grange.
Hi Tom,

What do you consider the last vintage of the old Faiveley regime ?

Thanks
Not Tom but 05/06 are last two old regime Faiveley vintages - big shift in 07.
Would you say for the better?

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Re: CHAMBOLLE-MUSIGNY 1er Cru question

#47 Post by Greg K » July 6th, 2020, 3:35 pm

Tomás Costa wrote:
July 6th, 2020, 3:01 pm
Michael Bowden wrote:
July 6th, 2020, 2:34 pm
Josh Najjar wrote:
July 6th, 2020, 1:47 pm


Hi Tom,

What do you consider the last vintage of the old Faiveley regime ?

Thanks
Not Tom but 05/06 are last two old regime Faiveley vintages - big shift in 07.
Would you say for the better?
Completely different styles. The complaint with older Faiveley (if you don’t like them) is that they were never ready. The complaint with new Faiveley (if you don’t like them) is that they’re very modern (oaky and extracted).
Greg Kahn

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Re: CHAMBOLLE-MUSIGNY 1er Cru question

#48 Post by Michael Bowden » July 6th, 2020, 4:10 pm

Tomás Costa wrote:
July 6th, 2020, 3:01 pm
Michael Bowden wrote:
July 6th, 2020, 2:34 pm
Josh Najjar wrote:
July 6th, 2020, 1:47 pm


Hi Tom,

What do you consider the last vintage of the old Faiveley regime ?

Thanks
Not Tom but 05/06 are last two old regime Faiveley vintages - big shift in 07.
Would you say for the better?
Short answer is yes - Longer answer is I think they are drinkable sooner than the previous generation of Faiveley and with a bit more elegance - that said, I think in the last few vintages there has been a shift back a bit towards the older style of Faiveley, a bit bigger, a bit more extraction, a bit more wood (than 07-13/14/15) - they are still not in the style of the 2005 and older Faiveley wines but they are not in the style of 2007-2014ish.
I'm taller than Zach Lang.

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Good fries are better than great tater tots.

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Re: CHAMBOLLE-MUSIGNY 1er Cru question

#49 Post by Greg K » July 6th, 2020, 5:55 pm

Michael Bowden wrote:
July 6th, 2020, 4:10 pm
Tomás Costa wrote:
July 6th, 2020, 3:01 pm
Michael Bowden wrote:
July 6th, 2020, 2:34 pm


Not Tom but 05/06 are last two old regime Faiveley vintages - big shift in 07.
Would you say for the better?
Short answer is yes - Longer answer is I think they are drinkable sooner than the previous generation of Faiveley and with a bit more elegance - that said, I think in the last few vintages there has been a shift back a bit towards the older style of Faiveley, a bit bigger, a bit more extraction, a bit more wood (than 07-13/14/15) - they are still not in the style of the 2005 and older Faiveley wines but they are not in the style of 2007-2014ish.
I think 2009 through 2013 Faiveley has more than enough wood!
Greg Kahn

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Re: CHAMBOLLE-MUSIGNY 1er Cru question

#50 Post by Mattstolz » July 6th, 2020, 6:43 pm

I think this thread is about the closest I've ever seen to an entire thread of berserkers coming to a consensus. its not perfect but pretty good agreement here!

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