With so many lists of who the best names in burgundy are, I was wondering about the opposite: who are the producers one should generally avoid? I was thinking of this the other day during the Sylvie Esmonin thread; I’ve never had a good bottle, and they’re definitely on my “AVOID” list, but others seem to really enjoy. I wonder if there are any consensus bad producers out there?
Laboure-Roi?
How many bad bottles does it take to give up on a producer?
For me, two or three real disappointments and I move on, too many producers I really like to waste money or space on ones I don’t. Your thoughts?
Any producer who fails to correct the obvious oxidation of its very expensive white wines is a BAD producer and a shit winemaker. Anyone can have an off-vintage or two, but a decade-worth? I don’t care what the problem is -pick at a lower pH, add more SO2 or dose before your Lees lose their reductive properties, use better corks or screw-caps. It is bad winemaking and there isn’t any excuse for it.
Cheers,
Bill
Agree that Laboure-Roi wines tend to, well, be bad, but I wasn’t think negociants when I posted this. I mean, grower-producers.
Just remember that one person’s bad is another person’s Caymus.
Right, but if we can all agree there are objectively good producers, then there must be objectively bad producers, too.
i.e., who is the evil twin of Rousseau/Leroy/DRC/Truchot/Chevillon/Angerville . . . there’s a wide range of styles and prices in that list, but almost everyone would agree that they are all great producers, even if you might prefer one style over another. So, it follows, there also must be bad producers in a bunch of styles. Otherwise you have a Lake Wobegon effect.
Perrot-Minot
What wine from Perrot-Minot has led you to that belief?
Yeah, not playing that game. If you like 'em, good for you. Chacun à son goût. I think they’re awful.
What’s the most recent vintage you’ve had?
That’s one I can get behind, I had a brutal 1998 Mazoyeres from them a few years back.
Totally different era for Perrot-Minot. The wines were genuinely oaked to death, which I think continued up through 05, though the great raw materials of the vintage tolerated it better (though a recent taste of ‘La Riotte’ from 375 was disappointing). I would say, based on tasting the wines and meeting Christophe, that he dialled it back some in 06 (I missed tasting 07 so I can’t comment) and by about 08, the super-oak flavors were largely gone.
Don’t get me wrong - Perrot-Minot wines haven’t suddenly become Bachelet lookalikes, but nor are they the oak monsters they once were.
I’ve been hearing the “they’ve changed” claims about Perrot-Minot for years and the date on which they supposedly changed keeps getting pushed forward. I remember being advised not to miss the '05s because that was the year they finally dialed down the oak and nailed the vintage, so it’s interesting to hear that the crap era is now retroactively being adjusted to include '05. I am pretty sure I have not had an '08 but I won’t be rushing to try one.
Keith,
I wouldn’t expect you to rush out and source a bunch. If my only reference points were the 98s, 99s and 02s that I have tried, I would run screaming myself. Things were less toasty in 05 compared to previous vintages (perhaps a little like gradually turning down the volume knob on a stereo), though I don’t think they would be your style. I have an 05 Gevrey somewhere in the house, so perhaps I’ll open and post to see where it is. The 08s didn’t show any toast young. The 10s were so pricey that I passed, and suspect I will continue to pass moving forward.
I don’t know if it counts as bad, but I don’t like Dominique Laurent.
05’s were definitely in the “old style,” with lots of extraction and wood. I think the Beze was practically 100 points from Wine Advocate, and several of the old vine lots were in the 96-98 point range.
The style is very different from 06 on. I am impressed with Perrot-Minot largely because he is one of the greatest farmers in Burgundy without a doubt, really a perfectionist in the vineyard, so in my mind, certainly no where near a bad producer even if the style wasn’t what I was looking for. Bad producer means incompetent to me, rather than difference of opinion on style. His wines were made in a different way from 2005 and earlier, but they were still capable of being very impressive, even if not a style I enjoyed. From 2006 on, the level of extraction, and amount of wood, has changed dramatically, and it’s obvious in the wines, as you’d expect. His ability to bring in excellent fruit has remained consistent though, and that’s 90% of the battle.
Really interesting question put forth.
Looking through my inventory, I own a few bottles each of Bertagna, Tapenot Merme and Domaine St Martin… Bought very inexpensively, clearly the market doesn’t seem to care for them - as they were $60-70 for a mixture of Beze, Chambertin, Charmes and Bonne Mares, mostly from the 2005 vintage. I haven’t opened any yet, so can’t provide my opinion…
Bertagna is a good one. Year in, year out, whoever the winemaker is, those wines are dead. The Clos de la Perriere is a particularly unforunate waste of excellent terroir.