Lucien Le Moine wines

Have access to three different bottlings of the 2009 vintage. Two whites, Chassagne-Montrachet La Grande Montagne & La Romanee also Corton Renardes Grand Cru for the red. Looking for opinions on these wines & the producer as a whole. I know production is tiny and I was considering picking up one of each. Thoughts? from those who are familiar with the producer, thanks.

Met the wine maker, Mounir Saouma, over dinner recently… We tried a few samplings of 2010 reds and whites which were definitely enjoyable but not mind blowing. Can’t remember what we had except a puligny montrachet les enseigneres. Also had a sample of a rare white Rhone that he made which was complex and fascinating. If I remember correctly, he makes over 70 different types of wines! Struck me as someone who is a perfectionist and profoundly knowledgable of other producers’ wines. He said at home, he always drinks other people’s wines rather than his own. He has a lot of respect for DRC, Coche Dury (for his range of Meursault but not Corton Ch.), Henri Boillot, Francois Lumpp amongst others. I rarely meet a winemaker who will be so open about what they have in their private cellars… Interestingly, he thought 2005 vintage for reds will ultimately disappoint when people open their bottles 20 years from now but was effusive with praise for the 2006 vintage. He wasn’t speaking of his own wines but instead, in a more general sense. Of his own wines, he has a special affection for 2002 Bonnes Mares - but I can’t remember why.

Doesn’t use a lot of sulphur (but was very critical of non sulphur naturale wines) and doesn’t filter.

You should be able to find a great deal of info if you search the board. The Le Moine wines have, in the past, been controversial on this board with some holding them up as “modern” and over-oaked and others praising their transparency. I’m fairly confident that those discussions related to the red wines. I really enjoyed the '05s reds, in particular an amoureuses that I was very confident would turn into something special. Since then, I’ve generally find the wines to be frightfully expensive given the alternatives and haven’t purchased any. I’ve never had a great Corton Renardes (including a recent '90 Leroy that was very disappointing) but I suppose that I would give Le Moine a shot at the right price as I can’t think of anyone else making Corton Renardes that I would consider as good as Le Moine (with the exception of Leroy’s stratospherically priced version).
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I am a fan of Le Moine reds. I have not had enough whites to form an opinion. Herwig J whose palate I trust and who is a friend to M. Saouma think his 2010 is the best yet. His reds tend to display opulent ripe but cool fruits, the fruit tend to be blue than red. If I were to generalize, his style is closer to Perrot Minot/Ponsot than Rousseau/Faiveley.

He did the elevage for our 09 Hospice wine (Beaune 1er). For a generic Beaune it is outstanding. I would say that his wines are a little more on the opulent side.

Had the Lucien Le Moine Gevrey-Chambertin 1 er Cru Les Cazetiers 2007, was a little dry,but really good.
many structure,very changing different flavours.For me a good cazetiers with many potential.
Bought also the NSG Cailles 2010.

Had a nice 2000 Gevery Lavaut St Jacques last night. That being said the bottles he uses are so annoyingly large!

I have drank the 2002 Corton Charlemagne and 2002 PM Foliteries (Sp?). I enjoyed them a great deal. Did not note any issues with the wines. Thought both were surprisingly ready a couple of years ago. Would buy again. But, the remark was true about the bottles- they are really heavy and wide at the bottom. Still have one more Corton Charlemagne.

Thanks! for the info everyone. It seems that the wines are very enjoyable but, as some noted & through my reading could be considered a little New World in style, I noticed the press likes Le Moine. Now the hard part at making a decision, at $140-$150 retail where I’m at do I buy them or spring for another Burg. with a longer track-recorded & more Old World in style. Tough decisions! & yes those bottles are heavy!

Very expensive for what they are, never had a very good one, let alone a great one.

Earlier wines (pre '05) are not particularly good IMHO. Oaky, moderm looking wines that haven’t really improved.

Whites have a continued history of premox, I’d avoid…

Saouma is the modern Jayer. Very similar elevage, etc. Hopefully with 10-20 years of age, results will be similar (for wines say '02 or maybe '05 and beyond).

In pricing?

I have had various wines from across the range from 2005-2010. I am still not impressed enough to pay the tariff and have passed, by and large, on offering them to clients because I don’t believe in the wines. (Some clients have asked for them specifically.) Perhaps it’s easy money on account of the press, but, frankly, the whole “micro-negoce” thing to me is a shell game.

There’s an inherent economic problem with these bottlings: the price of grapes in Burgundy is rising steadily, while the cost of owning land remains more or less the same. The growers are hip to the limited resource they have and now it’s their turn to take advantage of the negoce.

This is why Village bottlings of Meursault, Puligny, Volnay etc. from the big negoce like BPF, Chanson, Jadot, et al. can cost the same as lieux-dits or even 1ers from growers. Even within the same negoce house, say for example Jadot, you will find the Domaine lieux-dits Santenays and Volnays almost at price equity with the generic Village bottlings from them. The cost of owning land is now less than the value of its production.

As a result people like Saouma and Piuze and Bernstein et al. HAVE TO charge more for their wines than established, well-regarded, family-owned Domaines. This has an effect on the press, I believe. A guy with connections and money, like Saouma, comes in an starts a luxury, chic micro-negoce project and is asking big money for the wines. The press thinks: “we have to consider these seriously: there’s a big push from the vendor; the wines come in seal-clubbingly thick bottles and they’re outrageously expensive!” And suddenly you have a new phenom.

LeMoine’s wines can be very good, but frankly, they vary wildly in quality, and the same crus can be had from known entities for better prices and, usually, much better quality. The reds are generally much better than the whites. Also note that Saouma is only BUYING FINISHED WINES. He doesn’t really do much but take possession of barrels and then bottle. He’d be the first to tell you that too.

He seems earnest, but he’s also very slick and presents exceptionally. For such an “honest” guy, he conjured the very French nom du vin “Lucien LeMoine” for his labels, having something to do with his training with the monks (“moine” = monk) and the Lebanese equivalent of “light”/Lucien in Mounir (or maybe Saouma, I can’t remember). He’s now done the same thing in the Rhone, but at least there he’s using his own name. How he can justify $200-300 CDP is another story altogether. I am not as familiar with the price structure of grape buying in the Southern Rhone, but something tells me it’s a hell of a lot less than in Burgundy!

Frankly, I think a lot of these micro-negoce guys are taking advantage of an inflated market and simply trying to create a “luxury” product the most of which are destined for white tablecloths, I’d imagine. I think it’s insulting. (I will add, people like Bernstein and Pascal Marchand have a different relationship to the micro-negoce concept, and I might excerpt them from the discussion.)

Rant over.

I think for Pascal at least there is a multi-decade relationship with courtier’s and individual growers. Disclaimer: he may be pleased or displeased to be described as a friend.

Interesting discussion ( and some " same old " too ) .
IT , I disagree that prices for land have not gone up lately , I estimate this to be times 2 or more over the last 5 years as I have painfully experienced .
I agree that the wines are very expensive , consumer unfriendly and not always top ( the whites ) but you are pushing it too far claiming that his ( red ) wines are not at the top . According to the people who’s palate I trust ( Meadows , Tanzer , Galloni and mine ), Le Moine wines are always scoring among the best in Burgundy .
prices are high , yes , but not more than anywhere else in Burgundy . The Clos de la Roche from Ponsot 2001 is 395 Euro’s now , Clos de Tart 2011 = 300 . My prices of Le Moine in 2010 ( VAT of 21 % included )

• Gevrey Chambertin Cazetiers : 61 Euro’s
• Meursault Perrieres : 78 Euro’s
• Vosne Malconsorts : 90 Euro’s
• Bonnes Mares : 150 Euro’s
• Chambertin Clos de beze : 155 Euro’s
• Clos de la Roche : 105 euro’s
  It’s also not right to claim he buys a finished wine and basically doesn’t do much with it . He gets the must and then does the whole elevage . While I already have some 2011’s in my cellar , all of his 011’wines are still in barrel .
  There is a house style , just like Henri Jayer had a house style . The le Moine wines are silky , almost creamy , slightly sweeter than the norm , lacking a little bit of fraicheur , but with delicious aromatics . Just like Jayer . Some people like it , some less but that’s related to the style of the wine making . ( Btw , I think le Moine wines have more terroir than Jayer who always chaptalized his wines , le Moine doesn’t ).
  And as already discussed many times on this board , his style has softened from the early days ( pre-2005 ) … just like Perrot-Minot did . Less extraction primarily .
  I happen to know where some of his wines come from ( not from Mounir , he would never disclose it ) and when you compare the wines , I usually score le Moine wines higher ; more concentration , more aromatics , with a lovely touch of sweetness so needed for red Burgundy .
  Regarding his Rhone wines , I told him to start with this outrageously expensive special cuvée is nonsense . Start with building a track record with the normal wines . But other than that , he had to buy the land ( he did not inherit this from his parents ) and start from scratch .
  Finally , I find it very interesting that his white Rhone wine has many characteristics of a white Burgundy from Corton or Chassagne . Chalk and minerals dominate , and the wine has good freshness .

Mr. Paroinikos,
I definitely see the possible future issue with the economic problem but we aren’t quite there yet and if that day comes, the price of all Burgundy will go up again .

I have to disagree with your pricing argument. My price for the 10 CDBs by Jadot, Faiveley and Le Moine were all around $250. The 10 Ponsot CDR via proper channel retails for $500+ where Le Moine sells under $200. I think that their pricing is not any better or worse than everyone else. I realize that Rousseau sells his CDB at slightly over 100 euros but when it gets to US, the price triples even through the proper channel and in grey market a lot more. The family owned domaines charge less but the US retail prices certainly don’t reflect that. Also, as witnessed by the recent release prices of Domaine du Comte Liger-Belair, the domaine wine price will go up when the new generations take over.

In terms of the quality, I have been buying top five to ten of the reds and drank quite a bit and find the quality pretty consistent. IMO, his version of Cazetiers is one of the best out there. I am not saying that everyone will prefer his wine but his style is not unlike that of Ponsot’s.

Finally, I don’t see the reason for questioning his honesty.

Herwig:

Thanks for the feedback! Clearly, you have more experience with the wines and winery than I! However, I’d just add the following:

1. When discussing the economics I should have been clearer: It is less costly to OWN land than BUY grapes/wine. Of course, land costs are increasing if grape costs are also increasing! But there is a reason long-standing family Domaines can charge, often, significantly less than an upstart. I think it is a reasonable point that the negociant game has gotten much, much more economically tighter after the grower revolution of the past 50 years.

2. Mounir’s wines in the US are wildly expensive, IMO, for what they are: $50 retail for a Bourgogne blanc? Give me a good goddamn break!. Plus, I’m not really impressed that he can beat the prices of some of the most desirable wines in Burgundy like Ponsot’s CdlR.

3. As far as winemaking is concerned, I am only relating what he told us during his presentation and it does not vary much from what you have said. Are you implying “house style” is imparted in elevage alone? I don’t think you are, and elevage is not without its own perils, but, still, the labor doesn’t justify the costs, IMO.

4. Related - I don’t really see too much of a house style: some wines to me have been leaner, more mineralic and focused, while others have been chunky, deep, roasted and wild. And I don’t think it was the crus I was experiencing. Mounir stated repeatedly that his goal was to produce wines that were “alive” and were “controversial.” I think he succeeded in that regard!

5. I know he doesn’t use much sulfur and perhaps given your seemingly nearness to the source your experience of the wines is very different. Still, I agree that he can produce very good wines. I just think when dollar comes down to dollar the numbers don’t add up. Why would I buy his Vaucrains at price parity with Chevillon, more expensive than Gouges (even grey market Gouges!) and far more expensive than Michelot? I just don’t understand.

You made the pricing argument and his CDR is 1/3 of the Ponsot’s. Do you see the major stylistic difference?

Kevin:

Thanks for the reply!

1. I don’t think it makes much sense to compare price points with the most desirable wineries/crus. That is not where value is going to be revealed: there’s usually a well-defined floor and ceiling and not much in between! It is in the lesser or less popular 1er cru, village and bourgogne level that value will be most revealed. And asking $50 for Bourgogne Blanc or the same price or more for Vaucrains as the best on the market, for example, show really poor QPR.

1a. I am looking at the last offer from the vendor I can find easily in my email. All NORMAL markup retail prices, before any discounts. And keep in mind, these were wines they were trying to get rid of!

2007 Echezeaux $195 (compare with Regis Forey, Mongeard-Mugneret, Jadot, et al.)
2007 Puligny “Enseignieres” $105 (compare with lieu-dit Paul Pernot, Sauzet, et al.)
2007 Batard-Montrachet $447 (really??? compare with Pierre Morey, Colin-Deleger, Paul Pernot, et al.)

2. I wasn’t necessarily questioning his honesty. He seems sincere. I just think he is as equally interested in marketing as he is in terroir. Nothing wrong with that and, I think, from the sense I got from him, that he would say it’s true. He was a very open and forthright guy, IMO.

Pricing in the US is a tricky thing . His bourgogne blanc is less than $ 20 here ( still expensive , I agree ; but most of it is at least villages quality and origin like St. Aubain … ) It seems that you buy Le moine in the US around three times more than here in Belgium .

For comparison :

Coche Dury Perrieres is around 75 euro’s here . ( it used to be much less )

This is what I got yesterday regarding Rousseau 2011 ( compare it with US prices ) :

€
Gevrey Chambertin 41,10
Mazy Chambertin 89,10
Charmes-Chambertin 77,90
Ruchottes Chambertin 121,10
Clos Saint-Jacques 137,10
Chambertin 201,10
Clos de Bèze 201,10

Finally , I bought my La Tache 2010 for less than 800 Euro’s ( yep , I know this makes you envious ).