I think it s fair to say the discrepancy b/w the average wine drinker and those who frequent these boards is often wider than we may otherwise think. People who are educated on the topic of wine tend to consume and discuss their juice w others of a similar passion and knowledge base…one of the ancillary results of this being that many never really discuss or engage on the topic of wine w the “average” wine drinker.
I, for one, tend not to really discuss wine too often in public settings for myriad reasons which are irrelevant to this post ; however the topic invariably comes up anyway.
One thing has always surprised about wine which seems unique to its pursuit and consumption…this phenomenon does not really permeate any other aspect of knowledge:
So many people who know little, or nothing, about wine talk in such absolute, certain terms…and are 180 degrees off base w their comments. I heard some guy at the table across from me at dinner the other night go on and on and on about the “Rioja grape” (he proceeded to ask the waiter if the Ribero del duero on the wine list had Rioja in it)…speaking w irreverence like a professor of enology giving a lecture at UC-Davis or something. This is one small example of absurdity that I hear all too often and I have always wondered why this phenomenon exists.
People typically do not go on and on and on about other topics about which they little or nothing, masquerading as an expert (I am talking about smart, otherwise educated people here). Just the opposite in fact. Typically, they are very inquisitive in their thirst for new knowledge in every other arena of study.
I would love to hear the opinions as to why this seems to be exclusive to wine (or your opinions as to why the premise of my post is incorrect I suppose).
Have at it…
(disclaimer: I just re-read my post and can see where it may come off to some that I believe myself to be an expert … far from it. I love drinking wine and learning more about it every day…I sometimes find the learning as enjoyable as the consumption…on rare occasions even slightly more so)
Since the times of the ancient greeks consuming and being involved with “fine wine” has been a status marker and a sign of social sophistication. Humans are constantly vieing for social status and since wine has that aura, people make fools of themselves trying to use it in such a manner.
Even though I came to wine from a bit more of the geek angle (as a poor college student) I sort of fancied myself a “wine expert” and was considered as such by my friends. But then I started hanging out on eBob I qucikly realized I was a total fucking newbie. It was humbling. Even 8 years or so later of being seriously into wine, discussing it every day and drinking many thounsands of bottles I still feel like a newb if Im honest with myself.
I agree with Berry. - Watching Bourdain’s show with Ray Walker reminded me of how little I know. Those people were drinking so much, right in the cellars, living it all day every day. Whether Burgundy, Bordeaux or Napa, I taste a several bottles of each a month and the learning curve seems slow. People living in those regions, working ITB and making the wine… Wow! It’s very humbling.
That said, I’m an expert at what I like. Most people are. My friends and family characteristically like bubbles, sweet white or non-tannic reds. When I share a nice Burgundy with them, they usually don’t like it and comment that it is undrinkably dry, sour and tart. ( And then I sneak off with my bottle and rejoice…) They do think of me as a wine resource, but in that regard, my skill is just trying to keep something in the house my guests will enjoy. That’s a lot of the fun of it for me. I don’t think that makes me an expert, but I do find myself handed the wine list a lot when I’m out (I expect a lot of Berserkers do). I’m probably not an “average” drinker though either.
I have seen and heard some pretty funny things at parties, tastings and restaurants akin to what you are describing. People explaining how Third Growth Bordeaux means it is the “third time they’ve planted the vineyard…”
I think the same assumed expertise could apply to food. Everyone eats and everyone drinks beverages of some type. So the person thinks their opinion of the dish or wine before them matters although they may know diddly about cooking or fine cuisine or wine. And in a real sense, their opinion does matter, because if they like a certain type of wine, they should drink that type of wine and avoid those they disklike. I do cringe at examples of ignorance pronounced aloud such as the Rioja example. I also had a waitress substitute a different glass of wine for one not aavlaible and tell me it was the same thing except from California when it wasn’t even from the same grape and I had another server argue that white Burgundy was not Chardonnay.
On the food front I have certain likes and dislikes. I don’t like rhubarb and I think a tiny bit of cilantro goes a long way, and I don’t care for hot chili peppers or strongly spicy or curried dishes. That doesn’t mean that Indian or Szechuan or Mexican cuisine is inferior–just that it’s not appropriate for me if it’s not on the mild side. I’m more adventurous with wine than with food.
I hold wine-tasting fundraisers at my church about twice a year. Probably two-thirds of the attendees have limited knowledge of wine, but I enjoy introducing them to wines they’ve never tried before and providing some “wine education.” I print handouts with info about the wines and talk about food pairings such as having Albarino with mussels, or ham or pork or salmon with Pinot Noir and a variety of cheeses to try with different wines to see which pairings they like. We vote for our favorite wines of the evening and that helps inform what wines I select for the next tasting.
I disagree with the premise of the op in just about every way. We live in an age where people can spend a few haphazard hours on google and Wikipedia and decide they can have a working knowledge of just about anything.
This comes off as utter snobbery. I enjoy listening to people who enjoy drinking wine and their impressions of it even if they can’t recite all permissible Chateauneuf de Pape grapes on demand. For every person who is misrepresenting their knowledge, you might find two who have interesting observations, but are too intimidated to give them due to insufferable blowhards who consider themselves experts.
Don’t forget “r”, there are people out there who might not consider you the expert you consider yourself to be.
First, people tend to get passionate about wine and people are rarely all that good at explaining why they love the things they love.
Second, I think wine actually is somewhat unique in how different the experience of purchasing wine is from the experience of serving wine. In other words, when you open that bottle for a dinner or order a bottle at a restaurant, someone will ask you why you chose that bottle. While accurate, it isn’t always natural to be honest: “it was the second cheapest wine on the list”, “it was recommended by a cute girl at the wine shop”, “I purchased a bunch several years ago when I was stupid about wine”. Sometimes a bit of BS is the right answer…
Respectfully, I think you misunderstood the point of the post (probably why you disagree w it in “about every way”); furthermore, if I drew the same conclusions you did I would disagree w it as well. I apologize for the lack of clarity.
I could not be less of an expert (I notated as such at the end of the original post) and fundamentally believe that people should drink the wine they think tastes good to them. The gall of some in the wine community to look down on others for drinking something they like is something I have never understood (nor do I care to).
The point I was making was that it seems with wine, moreso than other pursuits, people speak emphatically about factually incorrect things in some misguided attempt to appear sophisticated. As others have noted, people do this w other things but in my experience wine faux-experts are disproportionately abundant. As I have noticed this, I got to thinking if a.) there was a reason for it or b.) I have just had a unique, randomly high sample.
If the answer to my internal question is inherently the former, I was wondering if others could shed light as to why that may be. If the answer is the latter, I apologize for wasting your, and everyone else’s, time. That is all.
Wow, strong reaction. I see a heck of a lot of what the OP talks about. I never correct anyone unless they ask me to and I can do so without deflating their ego (one on one), but I hear so much ridiculousness from people who pretend to be wine “experts” on a very regular basis. That observation in no way means that I judge anyone for not knowing something. It’s about the people who pretend to know and are hilariously wrong, and are also often condescending. very different. In fact, that seems to the the group of “blowhards” to which you refer while calling the OP a snob. I think it’s perfectly reasonable to wonder why they are the way they are, and unless there was significant editing beyond adding the last bit, I don’t see any snobbery in the first post.
Anyway, I agree with Berry’s assessment. I think it’s about social status and showing off. Fortunately for those of us who sell wine directly to the public, there are also a lot of wine drinkers out there who are very pleasant and reasonably humble, whatever their level of knowledge happens to be. I feel lucky to be able to learn a lot from those in that category who know more about some aspect of wine than I do, which is a heck of a lot of people, and to be able to teach others a little bit of what I know (which is not a lot compared to a lot of people on this board and elsewhere).
I also agree that this does happen with other topics a lot, but there seems to be so much of it in the wine world. Maybe that’s just where I notice it the most.
EDIT: in hindsight, I guess the subject of the post combined with not really reading the post could give the impression of snobbery. In the body of the first post, though, I don’t see it.
As has been said, I don’t think it is limited to just wine. I work in IT and have to listen to a lot of folks talk about subjects they know nothing about like they are an expert. I think in this case, what harm is there (other than your offended sensibilities)? That being said, the more I learn about wine,the less I think I know.
"The point I was making was that it seems with wine, moreso than other pursuits, people speak emphatically about factually incorrect things in some misguided attempt to appear sophisticated.:
Around here the peeps talking about nutrition, veganism, “toxins” and other food related topics spew as much or more crap devoid of any factual basis.
Well here’s a different perspective you all might appreciate – sometimes they do it because they have to for their jobs. I have met a wine educator whose clientele consists solely of lawyers as they feel the pressure (rightly or wrongly) to be into fine wine because the partners and higher-ups of their companies are all into fine wine. Heck, I have run into my own company’s CEO at the LCBO downstairs where I work!
The LCBO product consultant there confirmed pretty much the same thing for me, all the downtown Bay Street workers feel they have to be experts in all things wine with one important exception: Cognac. She has stopped bringing in cognac on a regular basis because the only thing the snotty downtown Bay street clientele will only buy Scotch whiskey and have thumbed their noses up at Cognac. Again, they have to be knowledgeable in whiskey because the partners in the law firm or financial institution are.
The comment I was told was that it was like golf – even if you don’t like it, for political reasons you’re damn well going to learn how to do it and become an expert at it (or at least appear to).
As a public service to average wine drinkers reading this thread, here is how to distinguish a true expert:
Average Wine Drinker: “My brother-in-law gave me this wine.”
Educated Berserker: “I was gifted this GC by my BIL.”
AWD: “Supposedly, it is a famous and expensive Bordeaux, but I wasn’t impressed – not much flavor and too dry.”
EB: “Judging from the CT notes, it was clearly an off-bottle.”
AWD: “Well, I found out he bought a whole case! Too bad he can’t get his money back from the store.”
EB: “Turns out, the poor SOB bought a case! I told him to dump the rest in Commerce Corner.”