The History of Wine Forums and Social Networking

Tasting notes, varietals, grapes - anything related to wine
Message
Author
User avatar
Ron Kramer
Posts: 7124
Joined: June 6th, 2009, 4:09 pm
Location: Near Boston

Re: The History of Wine Forums and Social Networking

#201 Post by Ron Kramer » March 13th, 2012, 12:09 pm

Kevin Shin wrote:
Brad Kane wrote:
Kevin Shin wrote:
I am in agreement with Tom that there was nothing to be gained by Rob. I was also surprised that he did so poorly.
I worked with him in the days leading up to the tasting. He was sick as hell. You'd see him off alone in a section of the store clearly in a bubble, oblivious to everything around him looking like he was trying trying to equalize the pressure in his ears. Aside from not attending due to the likelihood of a setup, he should've bailed because he was in no condition to smell or taste anything. The fact that he got anything right, imho, is pretty amazing.
Thanks for the information. BTW, although opinionated, Rob was nice in person.

RC was a nice guy put always but himself in position to be foolish in a self serving way.
Steve Wolfe organized a wonderful OL in the Grand Central area, I think the restaurant was call El Centro (or close) .The wine were just top notch and RC bought a lovely $13 Austrian. Just at the end Terry Stacy known as the Black Knight shows up with a case of outrageous Burgundy which Terry called "just some red shit" . Sated we all suffered to drink what was clearly heads and shoulder above what we already had. When it was all over I asked RC what was his favorite WOTN (actually afternoon) and he said his $13 Austrian, nice guy but a yutz.

User avatar
Brad Kane
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 5319
Joined: March 4th, 2009, 6:24 pm
Location: NYC

Re: The History of Wine Forums and Social Networking

#202 Post by Brad Kane » March 13th, 2012, 12:22 pm

Ron Kramer wrote: RC was a nice guy put always but himself in position to be foolish in a self serving way.
Steve Wolfe organized a wonderful OL in the Grand Central area, I think the restaurant was call El Centro (or close) .The wine were just top notch and RC bought a lovely $13 Austrian. Just at the end Terry Stacy known as the Black Knight shows up with a case of outrageous Burgundy which Terry called "just some red shit" . Sated we all suffered to drink what was clearly heads and shoulder above what we already had. When it was all over I asked RC what was his favorite WOTN (actually afternoon) and he said his $13 Austrian, nice guy but a yutz.
Knowing Rob, without a doubt that $13 Austrian was indeed his favorite.
itb.

User avatar
Keith Levenberg
Posts: 5528
Joined: June 6th, 2009, 3:11 pm
Location: Washington, D.C.

Re: The History of Wine Forums and Social Networking

#203 Post by Keith Levenberg » March 13th, 2012, 1:10 pm

Ron Kramer wrote:Just a point of order, the challenge was to tell new world from old world wines not identify the individual wine. A 50-50 choice.
It's been awhile since this event has been discussed, but I remember reading about the lineup somewhere. The point Parker wanted to prove, as Ron noted, was that the French wines couldn't be picked out from the California wines in a blind tasting. But it wasn't a "traditional vs. modern" lineup -- the French wines were pretty much New World-style wines like Coche and Guigal La Las and I forget what else, exactly the sort of wines someone like Callahan would have criticized for tasting like California wines. So what, exactly, did it prove, if Callahan or others in attendance couldn't tell which was which? I wouldn't bet much on my own ability to tell a Coche from a Kistler, either.

ybarselah
Posts: 6211
Joined: July 15th, 2009, 2:29 pm

Re: The History of Wine Forums and Social Networking

#204 Post by ybarselah » March 13th, 2012, 1:45 pm

Keith Levenberg wrote:
Ron Kramer wrote:Just a point of order, the challenge was to tell new world from old world wines not identify the individual wine. A 50-50 choice.
It's been awhile since this event has been discussed, but I remember reading about the lineup somewhere. The point Parker wanted to prove, as Ron noted, was that the French wines couldn't be picked out from the California wines in a blind tasting. But it wasn't a "traditional vs. modern" lineup -- the French wines were pretty much New World-style wines like Coche and Guigal La Las and I forget what else, exactly the sort of wines someone like Callahan would have criticized for tasting like California wines. So what, exactly, did it prove, if Callahan or others in attendance couldn't tell which was which? I wouldn't bet much on my own ability to tell a Coche from a Kistler, either.
i'd be absolutely shocked if you couldn't nail this one 100% all day long.

and i don't think you have that great of a palate. flirtysmile
Yaacov (ITB)

User avatar
Brad Kane
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 5319
Joined: March 4th, 2009, 6:24 pm
Location: NYC

Re: The History of Wine Forums and Social Networking

#205 Post by Brad Kane » March 13th, 2012, 1:46 pm

Keith Levenberg wrote:
Ron Kramer wrote:Just a point of order, the challenge was to tell new world from old world wines not identify the individual wine. A 50-50 choice.
It's been awhile since this event has been discussed, but I remember reading about the lineup somewhere. The point Parker wanted to prove, as Ron noted, was that the French wines couldn't be picked out from the California wines in a blind tasting. But it wasn't a "traditional vs. modern" lineup -- the French wines were pretty much New World-style wines like Coche and Guigal La Las and I forget what else, exactly the sort of wines someone like Callahan would have criticized for tasting like California wines. So what, exactly, did it prove, if Callahan or others in attendance couldn't tell which was which? I wouldn't bet much on my own ability to tell a Coche from a Kistler, either.
Here are the wines, Keith:

"First Flight: Chardonnays
1. 1991 Meursault Perrieres (Coche-Dury)
2. 1991 Chalone Reserve Chardonnay
3. 1991 Leroy Puligny-Montrachet "Les Folatieres"
4. 1992 Mt Eden Estate Chardonnay
5. 1993 Marcassin Hudson Chardonnay
6. 1989 Niellon Chassagne-Montrachet "Vergers"
7. 1990 Louis Latour Corton-Charlemagne
8. 1994 Peter Michael Cuvee Indigene Chardonnay

Second Flight: Pinot Noirs
1. 1992 Beaux Freres Pinot Noir Estate
2. 1990 Claude Dugat Charmes-Chambertin
3. 1991 Leroy Clos de La Roche
4. 1994 Beaux Freres Pinot Noir Estate
5. 1990 Lecheneault Clos de La Roche
6. 1991 Ponsot Clos de La Roche Vieilles Vignes

Third Flight: Cabernets/Merlots
1. 1984 Ridge Monte Bello
2. 1984 Hess Collection Reserve - Napa
3. 1983 Chateau Margaux
4. 1990 Tertre Roteboeuf (Mag)
5. 1989 L'Angelus (Mag)
6. 1990 Conn Valley Vineyard
7. 1991 Robert Mondavi Reserve - Napa
8. 1991 Dominus Napanook Vinyard - Napa

Fourth Flight: Syrahs
1. 1993 Rockland Petite Sirah - Napa
2. 1991 Guigal Cote Rotie "La Landonne"
3. 1992 Edmunds St John Syrah "Durell Vinyard"
4. 1990 Paul Jaboulet Hermitage "La Chapelle"
5. 1991 Chapoutier Ermitage Pavillon
6. 1992 Swanson Syrah - Napa
7. 1991 Gerin Cote Rotie "Les Grandes Places"
8. 1994 La Jota Petite Sirah - Napa "
itb.

Tom Reddick
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 1433
Joined: June 30th, 2009, 9:56 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: The History of Wine Forums and Social Networking

#206 Post by Tom Reddick » March 13th, 2012, 7:07 pm

Brad Kane wrote: Here are the wines, Keith:

Second Flight: Pinot Noirs
1. 1992 Beaux Freres Pinot Noir Estate
2. 1990 Claude Dugat Charmes-Chambertin
3. 1991 Leroy Clos de La Roche
4. 1994 Beaux Freres Pinot Noir Estate
5. 1990 Lecheneault Clos de La Roche
6. 1991 Ponsot Clos de La Roche Vieilles Vignes
This is the first time I have ever seen the list. All around pretty damned impressive- in particular the Pinot flight I quoted above. I have had all of these wines at least once, and I would be hard pressed to come up with a more challenging test if the question on the table is US vs. France. The 1991 Leroy Clos de la Roche is a particuarly excellent choice- 3 years ago that one was still very primary and I could see it being mistaken for a CA Pinot at a young age.
ITB - Cellar appraisals

User avatar
Ron Kramer
Posts: 7124
Joined: June 6th, 2009, 4:09 pm
Location: Near Boston

Re: The History of Wine Forums and Social Networking

#207 Post by Ron Kramer » March 13th, 2012, 8:09 pm

Brad Kane wrote:
Keith Levenberg wrote:
Ron Kramer wrote:Just a point of order, the challenge was to tell new world from old world wines not identify the individual wine. A 50-50 choice.
It's been awhile since this event has been discussed, but I remember reading about the lineup somewhere. The point Parker wanted to prove, as Ron noted, was that the French wines couldn't be picked out from the California wines in a blind tasting. But it wasn't a "traditional vs. modern" lineup -- the French wines were pretty much New World-style wines like Coche and Guigal La Las and I forget what else, exactly the sort of wines someone like Callahan would have criticized for tasting like California wines. So what, exactly, did it prove, if Callahan or others in attendance couldn't tell which was which? I wouldn't bet much on my own ability to tell a Coche from a Kistler, either.
Here are the wines, Keith:

"First Flight: Chardonnays
1. 1991 Meursault Perrieres (Coche-Dury)
2. 1991 Chalone Reserve Chardonnay
3. 1991 Leroy Puligny-Montrachet "Les Folatieres"
4. 1992 Mt Eden Estate Chardonnay
5. 1993 Marcassin Hudson Chardonnay
6. 1989 Niellon Chassagne-Montrachet "Vergers"
7. 1990 Louis Latour Corton-Charlemagne
8. 1994 Peter Michael Cuvee Indigene Chardonnay

Second Flight: Pinot Noirs
1. 1992 Beaux Freres Pinot Noir Estate
2. 1990 Claude Dugat Charmes-Chambertin
3. 1991 Leroy Clos de La Roche
4. 1994 Beaux Freres Pinot Noir Estate
5. 1990 Lecheneault Clos de La Roche
6. 1991 Ponsot Clos de La Roche Vieilles Vignes

Third Flight: Cabernets/Merlots
1. 1984 Ridge Monte Bello
2. 1984 Hess Collection Reserve - Napa
3. 1983 Chateau Margaux
4. 1990 Tertre Roteboeuf (Mag)
5. 1989 L'Angelus (Mag)
6. 1990 Conn Valley Vineyard
7. 1991 Robert Mondavi Reserve - Napa
8. 1991 Dominus Napanook Vinyard - Napa

Fourth Flight: Syrahs
1. 1993 Rockland Petite Sirah - Napa
2. 1991 Guigal Cote Rotie "La Landonne"
3. 1992 Edmunds St John Syrah "Durell Vinyard"
4. 1990 Paul Jaboulet Hermitage "La Chapelle"
5. 1991 Chapoutier Ermitage Pavillon
6. 1992 Swanson Syrah - Napa
7. 1991 Gerin Cote Rotie "Les Grandes Places"
8. 1994 La Jota Petite Sirah - Napa "

Remember all of these wine from Bob's cellar provided at no charge for this event.

User avatar
Bob Foster
Posts: 858
Joined: August 25th, 2010, 5:52 pm
Location: San Diego area.

Re: The History of Wine Forums and Social Networking

#208 Post by Bob Foster » March 13th, 2012, 8:31 pm

True, but a tax deductible event for Mr. Parker .
Run 1 wine comp-judge 12 others

User avatar
Keith Levenberg
Posts: 5528
Joined: June 6th, 2009, 3:11 pm
Location: Washington, D.C.

Re: The History of Wine Forums and Social Networking

#209 Post by Keith Levenberg » March 13th, 2012, 8:39 pm

Tom Reddick wrote:
Brad Kane wrote: Here are the wines, Keith:

Second Flight: Pinot Noirs
1. 1992 Beaux Freres Pinot Noir Estate
2. 1990 Claude Dugat Charmes-Chambertin
3. 1991 Leroy Clos de La Roche
4. 1994 Beaux Freres Pinot Noir Estate
5. 1990 Lecheneault Clos de La Roche
6. 1991 Ponsot Clos de La Roche Vieilles Vignes
This is the first time I have ever seen the list. All around pretty damned impressive- in particular the Pinot flight I quoted above. I have had all of these wines at least once, and I would be hard pressed to come up with a more challenging test if the question on the table is US vs. France. The 1991 Leroy Clos de la Roche is a particuarly excellent choice- 3 years ago that one was still very primary and I could see it being mistaken for a CA Pinot at a young age.
He could have made it even harder by choosing a decent Oregon wine. neener

Lee Short
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 1358
Joined: May 30th, 2009, 7:33 am
Location: Portland, OR

Re: The History of Wine Forums and Social Networking

#210 Post by Lee Short » March 13th, 2012, 10:11 pm

Ron Kramer wrote:
Remember all of these wine from Bob's cellar provided at no charge for this event.
So what you're trying to say here is that Parker buys French wines that taste like California wines? This is news how?

k s h i n
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 3868
Joined: August 17th, 2009, 1:23 pm

Re: The History of Wine Forums and Social Networking

#211 Post by k s h i n » March 14th, 2012, 6:19 am

Lee Short wrote:
Ron Kramer wrote:
Remember all of these wine from Bob's cellar provided at no charge for this event.
So what you're trying to say here is that Parker buys French wines that taste like California wines? This is news how?
That was a solid French line up. Which do you think is too Californian?
Kevin
ITB - I may be offering some of the wines that I drink and post TNs on.

User avatar
Jay Miller
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 14680
Joined: June 19th, 2009, 5:18 pm
Location: Jersey City

Re: The History of Wine Forums and Social Networking

#212 Post by Jay Miller » March 14th, 2012, 7:03 am

Kevin Shin wrote:
Lee Short wrote:
Ron Kramer wrote:
Remember all of these wine from Bob's cellar provided at no charge for this event.
So what you're trying to say here is that Parker buys French wines that taste like California wines? This is news how?
That was a solid French line up. Which do you think is too Californian?
Claude Dugat and Lechenaut typify the extracted/oaky trend in Burgundy for me. Personally I dislike both producers. And Chapoutier. And Guigal Lalas aren't shy on the oak. Nor is Coche. Leroy under the previous wine maker struck me as a bit heavy the few times I've tried it (I love the later wines though I can't afford them). Honestly the Ponsot is the only wine in the pinot flight that I'd put any money on my being able to pick out as Burgundy.

And during a recent blind dinner I incorrectly identified an ESJ Syrah as being from my favorite N. Rhone producer. But that's why I've been buying their wines for years.

I don't know the background for this of course. If Robert was really saying "all French" vs. "all California" then it's perfectly reasonable to hit him with new-worldish French and old-worldish California (though not to insist on his attendance despite his illness). If he was decrying the new-worldish style in general (which was of course more common in CA) then less so.
Ripe fruit isn't necessarily a flaw.

k s h i n
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 3868
Joined: August 17th, 2009, 1:23 pm

Re: The History of Wine Forums and Social Networking

#213 Post by k s h i n » March 14th, 2012, 8:12 am

Jay,
I agree that Claude Dugat is modern but for me clearly Burgundy. If one is serving the best/marquee Northern rhones, La Las and Le Pavillon would make the list and those are nothing like cali syrahs. I do agree that Coche and Leroy uses generous amount of oak but still Burgundian. I however think that ESJ can be easily mistaken as a northern syrah. IMO, the list is a fair and good representation. It is also important to note that Bob’s palate back then was significantly different than now.

PS there was a couple guys who got 27 out of 28. I think Rob was really sick.
Kevin
ITB - I may be offering some of the wines that I drink and post TNs on.

User avatar
Howard Cooper
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 18867
Joined: May 30th, 2009, 8:37 am
Location: Rockville, MD

Re: The History of Wine Forums and Social Networking

#214 Post by Howard Cooper » March 14th, 2012, 8:28 am

I think it would be interesting to do something like this tasting but to use more traditionally styled wines on both sides. If there are terroir differences, there should be terroir differences and it should not be a question of new oak = new world and old oak = old word. Put in California Cabernet like Dunn, or Montelena or Montebello, Pinots like Drouhin or Arcadian or Au Bon Climat and traditionally made European wines, reduce the impact of new oak and see if there are terroir differences.

I think there are based on what I have had before and having done a limited number of blind tastings. There are a lot of traditionally made older California Cabernet for example that are beautiful wines that may be of equivalent quality to top Bordeaux but are different in flavor profile - not bigger, different.
Howard

"That's what I do. I drink and I know things." Tyrion Lannister

User avatar
M. Dildine
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 22082
Joined: February 8th, 2009, 5:09 pm
Location: Alta California

Re: The History of Wine Forums and Social Networking

#215 Post by M. Dildine » March 14th, 2012, 8:47 am

Howard Cooper wrote:I think it would be interesting to do something like this tasting but to use more traditionally styled wines on both sides. If there are terroir differences, there should be terroir differences and it should not be a question of new oak = new world and old oak = old word. Put in California Cabernet like Dunn, or Montelena or Montebello, Pinots like Drouhin or Arcadian or Au Bon Climat and traditionally made European wines, reduce the impact of new oak and see if there are terroir differences.

I think there are based on what I have had before and having done a limited number of blind tastings. There are a lot of traditionally made older California Cabernet for example that are beautiful wines that may be of equivalent quality to top Bordeaux but are different in flavor profile - not bigger, different.
Agreed. I've always felt that the great wine demarcation is not California/France, but Traditional/Modern style. I can see some fascinating traditionally-styled blind tastings of Cab, Pinot and Syrah.
Cheers,

Mike

User avatar
Howard Cooper
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 18867
Joined: May 30th, 2009, 8:37 am
Location: Rockville, MD

Re: The History of Wine Forums and Social Networking

#216 Post by Howard Cooper » March 14th, 2012, 10:02 am

Kevin Shin wrote:
Lewis Dawson wrote:Oddly, the 100% Euro-centric Callahan pushed the somewhat Euro-centric Parker into frequently defending California wine. At one point, Parker challenged Callahan to a blind tasting of French and California wine, with the sole measurement being to identify the country of origin. This lead to an offline, and there were maybe 10 or 12 members present (I was not one of them). As it turned out, the Cal-trashing Callahan could not tell where the wines were from, and many that he identified as his favorites turned out to be US domestic wines.

(In this tasting, Parker played a cruel trick on Callahan, but without doubt the dude deserved it.)
Callahan said that he had a cold. He subsequently started winetherpy.com
Does starting a wine board cure a cold? newhere
Howard

"That's what I do. I drink and I know things." Tyrion Lannister

User avatar
Ron Kramer
Posts: 7124
Joined: June 6th, 2009, 4:09 pm
Location: Near Boston

Re: The History of Wine Forums and Social Networking

#217 Post by Ron Kramer » March 14th, 2012, 10:08 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
Kevin Shin wrote:
Lewis Dawson wrote:Oddly, the 100% Euro-centric Callahan pushed the somewhat Euro-centric Parker into frequently defending California wine. At one point, Parker challenged Callahan to a blind tasting of French and California wine, with the sole measurement being to identify the country of origin. This lead to an offline, and there were maybe 10 or 12 members present (I was not one of them). As it turned out, the Cal-trashing Callahan could not tell where the wines were from, and many that he identified as his favorites turned out to be US domestic wines.

(In this tasting, Parker played a cruel trick on Callahan, but without doubt the dude deserved it.)
Callahan said that he had a cold. He subsequently started winetherpy.com
Does starting a wine board cure a cold? newhere

[welldone.gif] [rofl.gif]

Lee Short
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 1358
Joined: May 30th, 2009, 7:33 am
Location: Portland, OR

Re: The History of Wine Forums and Social Networking

#218 Post by Lee Short » March 14th, 2012, 6:06 pm

Kevin Shin wrote:Jay,
I agree that Claude Dugat is modern but for me clearly Burgundy. If one is serving the best/marquee Northern rhones, La Las and Le Pavillon would make the list and those are nothing like cali syrahs. I do agree that Coche and Leroy uses generous amount of oak but still Burgundian. I however think that ESJ can be easily mistaken as a northern syrah. IMO, the list is a fair and good representation. It is also important to note that Bob’s palate back then was significantly different than now.
Like Jay, I have difficulty telling young French wines that are heavily extracted and oaked from their young California counterparts. At least, I did for wines of those vintages. The goalposts have moved a long way since then -- the difference between those categories has widened, I suspect. But I don't drink enough of them to say.

Sometimes age doesn't help -- I've never had a Claude Dugat that was "clearly Burgundy" for me. But then I don't drink it all that often, either. I have had aged La La's that I would have had no problem differentiating from California wines.

I also don't doubt that Rob was sick. I'm also saying that Parker stacked the deck against him by choosing French wines that, by and large, were of the heavily extracted and heavily oaked variety. That could have been intentional; more likely, it was just because those are the French wines that Parker likes.

AlexS
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 24228
Joined: February 19th, 2009, 4:05 pm
Location: Mwaukee, 'sconsin

Re: The History of Wine Forums and Social Networking

#219 Post by AlexS » March 14th, 2012, 7:18 pm

M. Dildine wrote:
Howard Cooper wrote:I think it would be interesting to do something like this tasting but to use more traditionally styled wines on both sides. If there are terroir differences, there should be terroir differences and it should not be a question of new oak = new world and old oak = old word. Put in California Cabernet like Dunn, or Montelena or Montebello, Pinots like Drouhin or Arcadian or Au Bon Climat and traditionally made European wines, reduce the impact of new oak and see if there are terroir differences.

I think there are based on what I have had before and having done a limited number of blind tastings. There are a lot of traditionally made older California Cabernet for example that are beautiful wines that may be of equivalent quality to top Bordeaux but are different in flavor profile - not bigger, different.
Agreed. I've always felt that the great wine demarcation is not California/France, but Traditional/Modern style. I can see some fascinating traditionally-styled blind tastings of Cab, Pinot and Syrah.
That's a great point and is pretty much what came to my mind too after reading about the tasting above.

Question for the folks who were posting back then - was the "traditional" vs. "modern" wine style topic as big of a deal at the time of this tasting? Just curious, as I really didn't start reading wine boards until maybe 7-8 years ago...

All this talk makes me think about having a guess-the-origin tasting of old world vs. new, but the kicker in this instance being that the wines would be divided by style...in other words, first part of the tasting would be "traditional" style old world wines vs. "traditional" style new world wines while the second part would focus on "modern" style new world wines vs. "modern" style new world wines. Maybe that sounds crazy...but it would really be a cool way to give a guess-the-origin geared tasting a contemporary spin.
s t e w @ r t

User avatar
Brad Kane
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 5319
Joined: March 4th, 2009, 6:24 pm
Location: NYC

Re: The History of Wine Forums and Social Networking

#220 Post by Brad Kane » March 14th, 2012, 7:36 pm

Alex Stewart wrote:
Question for the folks who were posting back then - was the "traditional" vs. "modern" wine style topic as big of a deal at the time of this tasting? Just curious, as I really didn't start reading wine boards until maybe 7-8 years ago...
Excellent question. To my memory, it really started to take off in the '96-'98 period with the release of the '94 Cabs from California, which, to many folks, marked a big shift in style to one that was much riper, higher in alcohol, more heavily oaked and extracted, as well as the mid-'90s vintages of Bordeaux where you really started to see more influence by Rolland, to an explosion in the popularity of more modern style of Spanish wines, especially in Ribero del Duero and Rioja with the '94'96 vintages and an explosion in the number of Super Tuscans, especially with the much heralded '97 vintage. One might also argue that this period through the early '00s marked the height of Parker's "power."
itb.

AlexS
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 24228
Joined: February 19th, 2009, 4:05 pm
Location: Mwaukee, 'sconsin

Re: The History of Wine Forums and Social Networking

#221 Post by AlexS » March 14th, 2012, 7:48 pm

Brad, thanks.
Brad Kane wrote: One might also argue that this period through the early '00s marked the height of Parker's "power."
This is especially interesting, because I feel like I was witnessing that period in history when I first started reading the boards in the early 2000's...especially during the 2000 Bordeaux vintage and the 2001-2002 hype in Napa.

Would you (or others) say the real discussion of "modern" vs. "traditional" style was starting to happen around 2005-2006, maybe?

I'm also curious ias to whether or not this was a ever a big deal in the 90's during the period you describe in your post. And further, if it wasn't, could that simply be because folks were still new to experiencing the "modern" style? One which, I think most of us can agree on, can certainly "wow" someone new to it??
s t e w @ r t

User avatar
Brad Kane
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 5319
Joined: March 4th, 2009, 6:24 pm
Location: NYC

Re: The History of Wine Forums and Social Networking

#222 Post by Brad Kane » March 14th, 2012, 8:06 pm

Alex Stewart wrote:Brad, thanks.
Brad Kane wrote: One might also argue that this period through the early '00s marked the height of Parker's "power."
This is especially interesting, because I feel like I was witnessing that period in history when I first started reading the boards in the early 2000's...especially during the 2000 Bordeaux vintage and the 2001-2002 hype in Napa.

Would you (or others) say the real discussion of "modern" vs. "traditional" style was starting to happen around 2005-2006, maybe?

I'm also curious ias to whether or not this was a ever a big deal in the 90's during the period you describe in your post. And further, if it wasn't, could that simply be because folks were still new to experiencing the "modern" style? One which, I think most of us can agree on, can certainly "wow" someone new to it??
No, as I said earlier, I think the traditional vs modern debate really started on-line in the '96-'98 period and it was by a small, vocal group. That said, I think it gained inertia in the early aughts, especially after the release of '97 Cabs, '00 Bordeaux and the rise of super cuvees in CDP with the much hyped '98 vintage, to the point that the backlash with the whole "natural wine" phenomenon started in the mid-aughts. Of course, backlash is relative. You saw it first here in NYC before it spread to some other cities along both coasts, but for most of the rest of the country, it's really not an issue. Of course, all this is just one guy's opinion. I'd be curious to hear the opinion of others.
Last edited by Brad Kane on March 14th, 2012, 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
itb.

User avatar
Roberto Rogness
Posts: 18974
Joined: February 10th, 2009, 10:16 am
Location: Santa Monica, Rio de Janeiro

Re: The History of Wine Forums and Social Networking

#223 Post by Roberto Rogness » March 14th, 2012, 8:09 pm

The rise of ultra modern, not recognizable as Barolo / Barbaresco wines in the 90's (especially from 1990 and 1997) contributed to that schism as well.
ITB Retail
É prohibido prohibir!

AlexS
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 24228
Joined: February 19th, 2009, 4:05 pm
Location: Mwaukee, 'sconsin

Re: The History of Wine Forums and Social Networking

#224 Post by AlexS » March 14th, 2012, 8:38 pm

Roberto Rogness wrote:The rise of ultra modern, not recognizable as Barolo / Barbaresco wines in the 90's (especially from 1990 and 1997) contributed to that schism as well.
Not trying to get into a Parker bashing thread, but genuinely curious when I ask - did he play a role in this or was this happening before his influence?
s t e w @ r t

User avatar
Marshall Manning
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 391
Joined: January 31st, 2009, 1:16 pm
Location: Portland, OR

Re: The History of Wine Forums and Social Networking

#225 Post by Marshall Manning » June 30th, 2020, 2:35 pm

loren.grossman wrote:
March 9th, 2012, 8:10 am
The AOL community is where Allen Meadows became BurgHound. he was just a guy back then and of course everyone on AOL used fake names like that! I remember 2 guys that really dominated the AOl forum - a guy who called himself Chambolle and another guy named Eno. And a guy from the NW that just went by Randy, if I recall correctly. Very interesting back and forth on that board. Funny that at the time, Chambolle was the big burg guy on that board and Burghound was something of a dilettante.

Robin Garr was also on the compuserve forum before splitting off, I think. We had many off-lines together at Mina's Tavern and Luzias on the UWS.

Made lots of friends on compuserve that I still see once a year at an offline we have. Includes Dave Sit, Don/Melissa Rice, Robb Gordon and Michelle Miles (who is now on this board too). I wish we could get them on this forum as they have amazing palates and an amazing depth of knowledge.
I realize this post is 8 years old, but I stumbled upon it looking for a name, and it brought back a lot of memories.

I was Enophile on the old AOL wine boards many years ago in a galaxy far, far away. Randy "Bucko" Buckner was the curmudgeon doctor from WA, there was a hilarious guy (Lonnie) whose board nickname was Tex who had all the (in)appropriate redneck jokes, and a number of other characters including the NY contingent that Brad Kane mentioned later in the thread. I think Chambolle was a lawyer from WA? This is where I first met Bob Wood, as well as some of the people who still post here and on other sites. It might have been the wildest wine board I ever participated in, but it was fun then in most ways.

Yes, Robin was one of the admins on CServe for a while. How is Dave Sit doing? My first offline was at the Kitchen in Sacramento with Dave, Robin, and a number of CServe winos prior to a ZAP even...probably 1996? One of those experiences that sticks with you...Dave was extremely knowledgeable and had a great palate, and it was amazing to be able to taste so many different excellent wines at one event. I had many other offlines over the years, but this might have been the best.

I wonder what happened to Melanie Wong, Doug Powers, and Bob Spector from CServe? They all were very active there but didn't seem to move on to other sites when it folded, at least that I remember, but I was never big on WS or Ebob. All of them contributed to my wine education back in the day.
Marshall

Mike Evans
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 3298
Joined: January 30th, 2012, 9:22 am
Location: Atlanta, GA

Re: The History of Wine Forums and Social Networking

#226 Post by Mike Evans » June 30th, 2020, 6:56 pm

Marshall Manning wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 2:35 pm
loren.grossman wrote:
March 9th, 2012, 8:10 am
The AOL community is where Allen Meadows became BurgHound. he was just a guy back then and of course everyone on AOL used fake names like that! I remember 2 guys that really dominated the AOl forum - a guy who called himself Chambolle and another guy named Eno. And a guy from the NW that just went by Randy, if I recall correctly. Very interesting back and forth on that board. Funny that at the time, Chambolle was the big burg guy on that board and Burghound was something of a dilettante.

Robin Garr was also on the compuserve forum before splitting off, I think. We had many off-lines together at Mina's Tavern and Luzias on the UWS.

Made lots of friends on compuserve that I still see once a year at an offline we have. Includes Dave Sit, Don/Melissa Rice, Robb Gordon and Michelle Miles (who is now on this board too). I wish we could get them on this forum as they have amazing palates and an amazing depth of knowledge.
I realize this post is 8 years old, but I stumbled upon it looking for a name, and it brought back a lot of memories.

I was Enophile on the old AOL wine boards many years ago in a galaxy far, far away. Randy "Bucko" Buckner was the curmudgeon doctor from WA, there was a hilarious guy (Lonnie) whose board nickname was Tex who had all the (in)appropriate redneck jokes, and a number of other characters including the NY contingent that Brad Kane mentioned later in the thread. I think Chambolle was a lawyer from WA? This is where I first met Bob Wood, as well as some of the people who still post here and on other sites. It might have been the wildest wine board I ever participated in, but it was fun then in most ways.

Yes, Robin was one of the admins on CServe for a while. How is Dave Sit doing? My first offline was at the Kitchen in Sacramento with Dave, Robin, and a number of CServe winos prior to a ZAP even...probably 1996? One of those experiences that sticks with you...Dave was extremely knowledgeable and had a great palate, and it was amazing to be able to taste so many different excellent wines at one event. I had many other offlines over the years, but this might have been the best.

I wonder what happened to Melanie Wong, Doug Powers, and Bob Spector from CServe? They all were very active there but didn't seem to move on to other sites when it folded, at least that I remember, but I was never big on WS or Ebob. All of them contributed to my wine education back in the day.
I still have some mid-1990s L’Aigulieres and Peyre Roses that I first tried based on Bob Spector’s recommendations. They are excellent to, in the case of the 1995 Peyre Roses, among the greatest wines I’ve ever had.

User avatar
Brad Kane
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 5319
Joined: March 4th, 2009, 6:24 pm
Location: NYC

Re: The History of Wine Forums and Social Networking

#227 Post by Brad Kane » June 30th, 2020, 7:21 pm

Mike Evans wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 6:56 pm
Marshall Manning wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 2:35 pm
loren.grossman wrote:
March 9th, 2012, 8:10 am
The AOL community is where Allen Meadows became BurgHound. he was just a guy back then and of course everyone on AOL used fake names like that! I remember 2 guys that really dominated the AOl forum - a guy who called himself Chambolle and another guy named Eno. And a guy from the NW that just went by Randy, if I recall correctly. Very interesting back and forth on that board. Funny that at the time, Chambolle was the big burg guy on that board and Burghound was something of a dilettante.

Robin Garr was also on the compuserve forum before splitting off, I think. We had many off-lines together at Mina's Tavern and Luzias on the UWS.

Made lots of friends on compuserve that I still see once a year at an offline we have. Includes Dave Sit, Don/Melissa Rice, Robb Gordon and Michelle Miles (who is now on this board too). I wish we could get them on this forum as they have amazing palates and an amazing depth of knowledge.
I realize this post is 8 years old, but I stumbled upon it looking for a name, and it brought back a lot of memories.

I was Enophile on the old AOL wine boards many years ago in a galaxy far, far away. Randy "Bucko" Buckner was the curmudgeon doctor from WA, there was a hilarious guy (Lonnie) whose board nickname was Tex who had all the (in)appropriate redneck jokes, and a number of other characters including the NY contingent that Brad Kane mentioned later in the thread. I think Chambolle was a lawyer from WA? This is where I first met Bob Wood, as well as some of the people who still post here and on other sites. It might have been the wildest wine board I ever participated in, but it was fun then in most ways.

Yes, Robin was one of the admins on CServe for a while. How is Dave Sit doing? My first offline was at the Kitchen in Sacramento with Dave, Robin, and a number of CServe winos prior to a ZAP even...probably 1996? One of those experiences that sticks with you...Dave was extremely knowledgeable and had a great palate, and it was amazing to be able to taste so many different excellent wines at one event. I had many other offlines over the years, but this might have been the best.

I wonder what happened to Melanie Wong, Doug Powers, and Bob Spector from CServe? They all were very active there but didn't seem to move on to other sites when it folded, at least that I remember, but I was never big on WS or Ebob. All of them contributed to my wine education back in the day.
I still have some mid-1990s L’Aigulieres and Peyre Roses that I first tried based on Bob Spector’s recommendations. They are excellent to, in the case of the 1995 Peyre Roses, among the greatest wines I’ve ever had.
Agreed, the '94s, but especially the '95s, from both those domaines are special. You actually may have revealed the true source of the recommendations. I learned of it through Don Rice and I know he was friendly with Bob back then. I wonder if he told Don about it?
itb.

User avatar
Marshall Manning
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 391
Joined: January 31st, 2009, 1:16 pm
Location: Portland, OR

Re: The History of Wine Forums and Social Networking

#228 Post by Marshall Manning » June 30th, 2020, 7:32 pm

Mike Evans wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 6:56 pm
I still have some mid-1990s L’Aigulieres and Peyre Roses that I first tried based on Bob Spector’s recommendations. They are excellent to, in the case of the 1995 Peyre Roses, among the greatest wines I’ve ever had.
I drank all of my Peyre Rose and L'Aigulieres, sadly, but still have a good chunk of Daumas Gassac from the '80s and '90s, although now just one or two bottles of each vintage. I loved that those guys were searching for other wines and regions when everyone else was talking about Bordeaux, which had already gotten out of my price range and was moving towards more new world styles. I've always been one to explore a number of regions, and I got good recommendations and education from those guys, as well as a number of other online wine geeks who have moved, or passed, on. I learned so much from so many people, both in person, and online, and they all deserve thanks for opening and discussing bottles I could never have afforded at the time. It's one of the reasons I have always enjoyed opening bottles of wine for those who are younger or newer in their wine appreciation phase. Generous people did it for me and lit a spark, and I hope to be able to do the same thing with others. champagne.gif
Marshall

D@ve D y r 0 f f
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 1190
Joined: May 14th, 2016, 9:22 am
Location: St. Louis, MO

Re: The History of Wine Forums and Social Networking

#229 Post by D@ve D y r 0 f f » June 30th, 2020, 8:52 pm

I missed the CompuServe/Prodigy/usenet days. I started the day my new issue of Wine Spectator arrived and, unlike the previous issue, it said “www.winespectator.com” on the cover, right under the name of the magazine. “Must be one of those newfangled ‘website’ things everyone’s talking about,” I thought to myself. So I checked it out (at work after hours, as my 286 home computer didn’t have a modem) and found the forum, and it was off to the races. WCWN started separately somewhere in there as well, but I found them when I followed the herd when we migrated from WS to WCWN because of some moderator or tech issue that WS had.

WS was a land of usernames. I was Vindicator. I remember Cabmandu, MM’s Oenophile, VinPaysDoc, Bored Doughnut, JFO, JamieB, Florida Jim, GeoT, Saaz, Moe Vedre, and so many others, some of whom are still around here.

Pesto was one - he was just a wino at the time, but started a little business selling obscure wines by monthly e-mail lists. A/k/a Jon Rimmerman of Garagiste.

I keep reading “Pobega” here as a verb. In those days, we called it “Ellis/Ames disease” after Greg Ellis (a/k/a VinPaysDoc, because he’s an M.D.) and Jeff Ames, who was just a wino back then but is just one of many who quit their day jobs and started earning a living making wine. Nether could take a newly arrived case of wine from the front door down to the cellar without popping a bottle first and posting on it, within minutes of arrival.

Other future winemakers included Mike Officer, Adam Lee, Brian Loring, Russell Bevan (“TRex”), Vincent Fritszche, and I’m sure many others were around either on WS or WCWN before they were ITB. Joe Cz, now of the WA, was a frequent poster (and offline attendee).

What else? GeoT of course, in addition to being a frequent poster, had his “Gang of Pour” website with Kim, Bree, Kerr, and others.

We had our own set of satiric posters - The Slimer, The Rhymer, and one or two others, always good for some sharp humor.

I remember that people would post notes after offlines and for a few years an extraordinarily high percentage of those included comments like “this was my first offline” and “I didn’t know what to expect,” along with the obligatory comments about how our spouses couldn’t understand how we were going to dinner with a bunch of people we’ve never met, any of whom could be “internet axe murderers.”

There were some legendary large offlines like Aris’s birthday party just across the Hudson from Manhattan (which I was able to make) and the Toledo gathering(s) of mostly Ohio and Michigan folks (which I was not able to make).

I hosted an annual “celebrity guest” offline at my house for a couple of years, where the midwestern locals would drive in from KC, Chicago, Indy, etc., and of course St. Louis, timed to accommodate a celebrity special guest from further away. Brian Loring was the special guest one year, and the Florida Jim/Colonel Bob tour was the special guest another year.

I remember that the WS forums had separate forums by wine type, and the “Italian” forum was so vibrant (“led” perhaps by Dave Cuneo who posted exhaustively) that when we all migrated to WCWN, Brad agreed to set up a separate “Italian Wine” forum page even though his forum list looked more like the list here (Tasting Notes, General Wine talk, Food and Wine, Wine Travel, Beer and Spirits, etc., no special pages for Bordeaux or Burgundy or California, etc.). And it worked - our little ‘famiglia’ stayed active and strong for years.

We started what I believe to be the first wine-board-originated fantasy sports league, the WCWN Fantasy Baseball League, in 2001 and it is still going strong (other than waiting to see if our 20th season actually gets played this year).

I didn’t go back through all 5 pages of this thread from 8 years ago, so much of this could be repetitive, but those are some “put it in the Wikipedia article” type tidbits that jump immediately to mind tonight.

All of the above (I think) predate subsequent migrations to Squires which became eBob, some who also went into WLDG and/or Wine Therapy, and other pre-Berserkers site. And now here we are!

D@ve D y r 0 f f
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 1190
Joined: May 14th, 2016, 9:22 am
Location: St. Louis, MO

Re: The History of Wine Forums and Social Networking

#230 Post by D@ve D y r 0 f f » July 1st, 2020, 5:18 am

And of course Tom Hill was there from the very beginning (though in those days his notes had a higher percentage of fencing content).

One classic piece of Tom Hill lore from the WCWN days was the time he put up a TN for the entirely fictitious Turley “Smoot-Hawley Vineyard” white zinfandel. (Was it April Fool’s Day? I can’t remember). The note itself was quite amusing, but the best part was that it was later picked up by an author in a book or a magazine article (again, I can’t remember which). So, the existence of this delightful but imaginary pink beverage is forever enshrined in some “serious” source for some future historians to find and record when writing up the 1990s chapter in their books on the history of California wine.

User avatar
David Glasser
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 7474
Joined: August 16th, 2009, 6:03 pm
Location: Maryland

Re: The History of Wine Forums and Social Networking

#231 Post by David Glasser » July 1st, 2020, 1:52 pm

Marshall, thanks for bringing this back up - a great trip down Memory Lane. Whenever I see your name I think of Marshall Manning's March Magnum Madness. Those posts were always a good read.

I started on Compuserve in the mid-80s and am familiar with most of the names mentioned above. Also Jim-not-Jeff Leff who was always posting about restaurants and went on to found Chowhound. Met Robin Garr through CompuServe and shared some wine and food with him at a MD Wine Festival before off-lines we’re called off-lines. I participated in the early versions of WLDG. Gave up when the format changed and now very occasionally peek in.

Then Prodigy around 86 or 87 was the first wine "board" with a GUI. Squires was a mod and Parker the online expert. That and the Squires board which he started after Sears(?) pulled the plug on Prodigy in the mid-90s led to my first true offlines. The Squires board was pretty mellow until it was merged into eRP and Parker's presence resulted in membership exploding. That led to inevitable and understandable friction between members but this was often amplified or even initiated by Mark's "moderating."

The very first OL I attended was at Dilworthtown Inn in Chadds Ford. My wife was skeptical but we had a great time.

When I invited Ron Kramer whom I knew only from the Prodigy board to stay in our spare bedroom for the MacArthur California Barrel tasting the next spring I got the internet axe murderer speech from my wife. Beginning of a great friendship.

Then some epic Cult Wine Off-Lines at Steve Levy’s where we all wondered who invited the short guy who looked about 12 years old but seemed to have the knowledge and energy of 4 or 5 of us combined... Gary Vaynersomething.

I read WCWN pretty regularly back in the day but didn’t post much. Visited Wine Therapy/Disorder at times but lacked the commitment to penetrate the insider-isms.

In 2000 I joined Bordeaux Wine Enthusiasts and remain a regular there. Pretty mellow and respectful place, led to many many friendships and offlines from local to all over the country and on multiple continents.

Then of course Wine Berserkers. I joined fairly early but held back from posting much at until the board worked through throwing off the chains of oppression from eRP. Lots of familiar faces here from back in the CompuServe, WLDG, Prodigy, and Squires/eRP days.

This thread's made me feel a bit nostalgic as well as wistful for some of the friends and acquaintances who are no longer with us.

Post Reply

Return to “Wine Talk”