Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

Tasting notes, varietals, grapes - anything related to wine
Message
Author
User avatar
John Ammons
Posts: 1442
Joined: August 3rd, 2011, 10:26 am
Location: Mill Valley, CA
Been thanked: 9 times

Re: Why does Premier Cru take so long

#7051 Post by John Ammons »

Lewis Dawson wrote: February 6th, 2012, 12:31 pm
Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote:Gray market. Ponzi.

Take your pick.
That right there is one ignorant post, and offensive too.
Yaacov,

I just took your recommendation and reread page one. Great stuff. The post(s) I quoted above make for a classic exchange in hindsight!

User avatar
Jim Brennan
Posts: 5308
Joined: April 17th, 2009, 6:10 pm
Location: People's Republic of Illinois
Has thanked: 9 times
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: Why does Premier Cru take so long

#7052 Post by Jim Brennan »

John Ammons wrote: February 3rd, 2021, 3:16 pm
Lewis Dawson wrote: February 6th, 2012, 12:31 pm
Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote:Gray market. Ponzi.

Take your pick.
That right there is one ignorant post, and offensive too.
Yaacov,

I just took your recommendation and reread page one. Great stuff. The post(s) I quoted above make for a classic exchange in hindsight!

User avatar
Ken Kailin
Posts: 117
Joined: May 4th, 2010, 7:19 am
Location: Northbrook, IL

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7053 Post by Ken Kailin »

Does any one have the contact info for the Bankruptcy Trustee's office or easy way to get an update on the docket?

Scott Jameson
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 702
Joined: April 1st, 2009, 6:26 am
Location: Houston, TX
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 5 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7054 Post by Scott Jameson »

Tom K. wrote: February 3rd, 2021, 1:50 pm Anyone know how to update the recipient contact details of a filed claim? I moved and have never had to deal with anything like this before.
Tom, there's many examples of address change letters to the court in the case documents. Here is one: https://docs.bmcgroup.com/FoxOrtega/doc ... 50_301.pdf

Note this particular example is almost 5 years old and some of the contact details may not be current.

User avatar
Br1an Th0rne
Monopole Crü
Monopole Crü
Posts: 585
Joined: May 28th, 2009, 9:37 pm
Location: Just outside of Philly
Has thanked: 16 times
Been thanked: 12 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7055 Post by Br1an Th0rne »

ybarselah wrote: February 3rd, 2021, 2:18 pm still the GOAT thread in the wine world. period. whenever I'm down, i stroll down memory lane to the early pages here and just bask in the glow of certitude. it's stupendous. i highly recommend it. to me, it's becoming something akin to a beloved book where you highlight passages and re-read them. what is the wine equivalent of the library of congress?
This thread is great for historical purposes - many lessons to be learned, on multiple fronts - but revisiting it primarily makes me sad.

User avatar
Arv R
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 4474
Joined: January 11th, 2015, 3:53 pm
Has thanked: 102 times
Been thanked: 32 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7056 Post by Arv R »

What really is amazing is how shitty people who had insights were treated, and how completely unapologetic/unrepentant those who threw rocks at them remain, even years later, when perhaps passions should have calmed down.
R_@_0

User avatar
Victor Hong
Posts: 20377
Joined: May 30th, 2009, 1:34 pm
Location: Banana Republic of ‘Merica
Been thanked: 25 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7057 Post by Victor Hong »

Arv R wrote: February 4th, 2021, 10:27 am What really is amazing is how sh1tty people who had insights were treated, and how completely unapologetic/unrepentant those who threw rocks at them remain, even years later, when perhaps passions should have calmed down.
I am not amazed, but indeed find that typical.
The losers of a race often complain that the winner should have run faster.
WineHunter.

User avatar
Don Cornwell
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 1729
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 1:24 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Been thanked: 12 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7058 Post by Don Cornwell »

Ken Kailin wrote: February 4th, 2021, 5:18 am Does any one have the contact info for the Bankruptcy Trustee's office or easy way to get an update on the docket?
The Bankruptcy Trustee is:

Michael G. Kasolas
P.O. Box 27526
San Francisco, CA 94127
(415) 504-1926
Don Cornwell
Oxidized Burgs Wiki
http://www.gdeschamps.net/wiki/doku.php?id=start

User avatar
Victor Hong
Posts: 20377
Joined: May 30th, 2009, 1:34 pm
Location: Banana Republic of ‘Merica
Been thanked: 25 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7059 Post by Victor Hong »

Arv R wrote: February 4th, 2021, 10:27 am What really is amazing is how shitty people who had insights were treated, and how completely unapologetic/unrepentant those who threw rocks at them remain, even years later, when perhaps passions should have calmed down.
In the annals of wine misrepresentation, the worst are the enablers who quietly recede without accountability.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=142281
WineHunter.

User avatar
J a y H a c k
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 14218
Joined: May 29th, 2009, 9:59 am
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 19 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7060 Post by J a y H a c k »

I'm not allowed to post on this thread. Some A$$hole Berserker said that I couldn't post because I had no skin in the game. I nominated that for the dumbest post on the entire site. Does anyone know what the % bankruptcy dividend is supposed to be?
Yes, that's a DM of 1978 Mouton!

You can read my Financial Institutions Law Blog at https://www.gdblaw.com/blog?practiceID=4985.

Wes Barton
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 4273
Joined: January 29th, 2009, 3:54 am
Been thanked: 25 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7061 Post by Wes Barton »

J a y H a c k wrote: February 4th, 2021, 8:21 pm I'm not allowed to post on this thread. Some A$$hole Berserker said that I couldn't post because I had no skin in the game. I nominated that for the dumbest post on the entire site. Does anyone know what the % bankruptcy dividend is supposed to be?
Oh, you just don't understand his business model! How could it be a Ponzi scheme when all the wines are eventually delivered??? I base that opinion on having received about 5% of the wines I've ordered, so, obviously it's just a matter of patience. Nothing to worry about. He's a good guy. Everyone will get their wines. They always do...
ITB - Useless lackey

Can't stand bloody wax capsules.

ybarselah
Posts: 6510
Joined: July 15th, 2009, 2:29 pm
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 22 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7062 Post by ybarselah »

Arv R wrote: February 4th, 2021, 10:27 am What really is amazing is how shitty people who had insights were treated, and how completely unapologetic/unrepentant those who threw rocks at them remain, even years later, when perhaps passions should have calmed down.
especially those ITB; folks that had actual and relevant knowledge to help. of course, it was all sour grapes. we live in an age of anti knowledge and expertise.
Yaacov (ITB)

User avatar
M A T T H A R T L E Y
Posts: 2031
Joined: June 3rd, 2009, 8:54 am

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7063 Post by M A T T H A R T L E Y »

ybarselah wrote: February 6th, 2021, 4:14 pm
Arv R wrote: February 4th, 2021, 10:27 am What really is amazing is how shitty people who had insights were treated, and how completely unapologetic/unrepentant those who threw rocks at them remain, even years later, when perhaps passions should have calmed down.
especially those ITB; folks that had actual and relevant knowledge to help. of course, it was all sour grapes. we live in an age of anti knowledge and expertise.
The whole thing was a master class in confirmation bias.
___________________________
ITB

ybarselah
Posts: 6510
Joined: July 15th, 2009, 2:29 pm
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 22 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7064 Post by ybarselah »

M A T T H A R T L E Y wrote: February 7th, 2021, 11:41 am
ybarselah wrote: February 6th, 2021, 4:14 pm
Arv R wrote: February 4th, 2021, 10:27 am What really is amazing is how shitty people who had insights were treated, and how completely unapologetic/unrepentant those who threw rocks at them remain, even years later, when perhaps passions should have calmed down.
especially those ITB; folks that had actual and relevant knowledge to help. of course, it was all sour grapes. we live in an age of anti knowledge and expertise.
The whole thing was a master class in confirmation bias.
that bitcoin thread tho
Yaacov (ITB)

User avatar
Al Osterheld
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 7656
Joined: March 15th, 2009, 5:47 am
Location: SF Bay
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 26 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7065 Post by Al Osterheld »

"John Fox, who ran the world’s largest wine Ponzi scheme from his Berkeley store, gets out of prison"

https://www.berkeleyside.com/2021/02/22 ... -of-prison

-Al

User avatar
Larry Stein
Posts: 2097
Joined: April 17th, 2009, 2:27 pm
Location: Belmont CA
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7066 Post by Larry Stein »

Al Osterheld wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 1:57 pm "John Fox, who ran the world’s largest wine Ponzi scheme from his Berkeley store, gets out of prison"

https://www.berkeleyside.com/2021/02/22 ... -of-prison

-Al
Al, this is already in another thread: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=178027

User avatar
Al Osterheld
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 7656
Joined: March 15th, 2009, 5:47 am
Location: SF Bay
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 26 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7067 Post by Al Osterheld »

Added it here since it's the master thread.

-Al

User avatar
Victor Hong
Posts: 20377
Joined: May 30th, 2009, 1:34 pm
Location: Banana Republic of ‘Merica
Been thanked: 25 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7068 Post by Victor Hong »

Are going to re-name this as the Main Thread?
WineHunter.

User avatar
William Gladstone
BerserkerBusiness
BerserkerBusiness
Posts: 638
Joined: June 12th, 2013, 2:34 am
Location: new york, honolulu, hong kong
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 7 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7069 Post by William Gladstone »

Ken Kailin wrote: February 4th, 2021, 5:18 am Does any one have the contact info for the Bankruptcy Trustee's office or easy way to get an update on the docket?
John Fox has been released from prison, we should find him... sweet man,

User avatar
William Gladstone
BerserkerBusiness
BerserkerBusiness
Posts: 638
Joined: June 12th, 2013, 2:34 am
Location: new york, honolulu, hong kong
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 7 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7070 Post by William Gladstone »

Arv R wrote: February 4th, 2021, 10:27 am What really is amazing is how shitty people who had insights were treated, and how completely unapologetic/unrepentant those who threw rocks at them remain, even years later, when perhaps passions should have calmed down.
I've always wondered about that!
How I tried to warn people, and how i was attacked - really viciously, ignorant comments,
and not one apology after the truth came out.
I always was surprised that no one thought to double back and apologize for their comments.

User avatar
William Gladstone
BerserkerBusiness
BerserkerBusiness
Posts: 638
Joined: June 12th, 2013, 2:34 am
Location: new york, honolulu, hong kong
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 7 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7071 Post by William Gladstone »

J a y H a c k wrote: February 4th, 2021, 8:21 pm I'm not allowed to post on this thread. Some A$$hole Berserker said that I couldn't post because I had no skin in the game. I nominated that for the dumbest post on the entire site. Does anyone know what the % bankruptcy dividend is supposed to be?
are you asking what % the bankruptcy attny kept for her fee's? 40% if that is the question. 40% of what she recovered is hers.
I forget the Trustee what his % is..

User avatar
Victor Hong
Posts: 20377
Joined: May 30th, 2009, 1:34 pm
Location: Banana Republic of ‘Merica
Been thanked: 25 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7072 Post by Victor Hong »

Arv R wrote: February 4th, 2021, 10:27 am What really is amazing is how shitty people who had insights were treated, and how completely unapologetic/unrepentant those who threw rocks at them remain, even years later, when perhaps passions should have calmed down.
So, let me tell you a story......
WineHunter.

Mike Miller
Posts: 756
Joined: February 3rd, 2009, 4:39 pm
Location: Marshall, TX & Dallas, TX

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7073 Post by Mike Miller »

William Gladstone wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 3:21 pm
Ken Kailin wrote: February 4th, 2021, 5:18 am Does any one have the contact info for the Bankruptcy Trustee's office or easy way to get an update on the docket?
John Fox has been released from prison, we should find him... sweet man,
Early, no less.

Maybe we can invite him to a tasting. Let each creditor in the bankruptcy make him one mixed drink.

https://www.berkeleyside.com/2021/02/22 ... -of-prison

User avatar
William Gladstone
BerserkerBusiness
BerserkerBusiness
Posts: 638
Joined: June 12th, 2013, 2:34 am
Location: new york, honolulu, hong kong
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 7 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7074 Post by William Gladstone »

I do adore this idea. I have initiated contact and reached out for my attorney to ask
what are the boundary's? What is too far? My imagination is running wild, Certainly
he likes woman of a particular type (unless he has changed in prison?)
there is so many kind acts we can offer..

User avatar
J a y H a c k
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 14218
Joined: May 29th, 2009, 9:59 am
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 19 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7075 Post by J a y H a c k »

William Gladstone wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 3:27 pm
J a y H a c k wrote: February 4th, 2021, 8:21 pm I'm not allowed to post on this thread. Some A$$hole Berserker said that I couldn't post because I had no skin in the game. I nominated that for the dumbest post on the entire site. Does anyone know what the % bankruptcy dividend is supposed to be?
are you asking what % the bankruptcy attny kept for her fee's? 40% if that is the question. 40% of what she recovered is hers.
I forget the Trustee what his % is..
No. If there is a bankruptcy estate representing net dollars recovered after expenses, it is distributed among the unsecured creditors on a pro rata basis. I am just wondering what their percentage recovery of their loss claim is. It's rarely over 5% and often zero. We used to represent a bankruptcy trustee and once paid a 100% dividend after we sued and collected a huge insurance payment for fraud by the principal owner. Our client was severely criticized for making the other trustees look bad.
Yes, that's a DM of 1978 Mouton!

You can read my Financial Institutions Law Blog at https://www.gdblaw.com/blog?practiceID=4985.

Scott Jameson
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 702
Joined: April 1st, 2009, 6:26 am
Location: Houston, TX
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 5 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7076 Post by Scott Jameson »

J a y H a c k wrote: February 24th, 2021, 5:04 am
William Gladstone wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 3:27 pm
J a y H a c k wrote: February 4th, 2021, 8:21 pm I'm not allowed to post on this thread. Some A$$hole Berserker said that I couldn't post because I had no skin in the game. I nominated that for the dumbest post on the entire site. Does anyone know what the % bankruptcy dividend is supposed to be?
are you asking what % the bankruptcy attny kept for her fee's? 40% if that is the question. 40% of what she recovered is hers.
I forget the Trustee what his % is..
No. If there is a bankruptcy estate representing net dollars recovered after expenses, it is distributed among the unsecured creditors on a pro rata basis. I am just wondering what their percentage recovery of their loss claim is. It's rarely over 5% and often zero. We used to represent a bankruptcy trustee and once paid a 100% dividend after we sued and collected a huge insurance payment for fraud by the principal owner. Our client was severely criticized for making the other trustees look bad.
Jay, if I understand what you are asking correctly, I believe there was a proposal to pay certain unsecured creditors 30% of their claim. The creditors were those with claims under $3K. I don't know the current status of that proposal, and unfortunately, my claim amount was just over $3K ...

User avatar
G. Greenbaum
Posts: 2359
Joined: January 29th, 2009, 7:45 am
Location: Up in here
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7077 Post by G. Greenbaum »

I like this quote:
Fox said that he planned to take courses in prison and get a degree in computer science. When he is released, he said he hoped to start a company and “become a billionaire.”
Regards,
Gregg


ITB

ChrisWolff
Posts: 119
Joined: December 4th, 2019, 9:49 am
Has thanked: 22 times
Been thanked: 10 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7078 Post by ChrisWolff »

On what page of this thread does the ponzi scheme become fully visible to all?

D@ve D y r 0 f f
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 1963
Joined: May 14th, 2016, 9:22 am
Location: St. Louis, MO
Has thanked: 131 times
Been thanked: 48 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7079 Post by D@ve D y r 0 f f »

G. Greenbaum wrote: February 24th, 2021, 9:15 am I like this quote:
Fox said that he planned to take courses in prison and get a degree in computer science. When he is released, he said he hoped to start a company and “become a billionaire.”
Just update this clip by changing "$100,000" to "$1 billion"....


User avatar
ClarkstonMark
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 1943
Joined: December 19th, 2009, 12:13 pm
Location: Detroit
Has thanked: 9 times
Been thanked: 8 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7080 Post by ClarkstonMark »

ChrisWolff wrote: February 24th, 2021, 9:21 am On what page of this thread does the ponzi scheme become fully visible to all?
haven't gotten there yet, and never will
Mark Cronmiller
White Lake, MI

User avatar
Brad England
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 988
Joined: June 3rd, 2009, 11:14 am
Location: Avon, CO
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 11 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7081 Post by Brad England »

ChrisWolff wrote: February 24th, 2021, 9:21 am On what page of this thread does the ponzi scheme become fully visible to all?
On page 86 is when they filed bankruptcy (1/8/2016). It was visible to a lot of people much earlier, as the thread documents.
CT=BradE

User avatar
Stephen Faulkner
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 489
Joined: September 6th, 2010, 8:30 am
Location: WV Panhandle
Been thanked: 9 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7082 Post by Stephen Faulkner »

M A T T H A R T L E Y wrote: February 7th, 2021, 11:41 am The whole thing was a master class in confirmation bias.
Kinda on both sides. Hindsight is 20/20 as they say, but on the other end of that continuum were lots of accusations made with claims of ITB insight over many years, not unlike those that claim the market will crash and eventually it does and they are right. The first post in this thread is 2012 and there are references to these claims going back to eBob so what, 8? 10 yrs? before it crashed? To someone like myself who dabbles in this as a fun hobby, there were too many he said/she saids to know what to think. While I did lose some money, it wasn't enough to lose any sleep over and if I had stopped buying from PC when the first accusations were made, I would have missed out on a lot good wine at great prices that I am glad I bought. That doesn't absolve anyone of being an *sshole to other people. ymmv

User avatar
William Gladstone
BerserkerBusiness
BerserkerBusiness
Posts: 638
Joined: June 12th, 2013, 2:34 am
Location: new york, honolulu, hong kong
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 7 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7083 Post by William Gladstone »

Everyone is aware that there are cases - still pending and being paid for - in the courts & with attorneys fee's, of people the bankruptcy trustee attny is still pursuing.
People still suffering the emotional and financial aggravation - battling for their POV.

And John Fox now gets to walk free?

Being the tremendous human John is, he had his sentence reduced by 2 years - "by paying for sex." I am quoting from the current Wine Searcher article - posted Feb. 24 - 2021.
I will just quote the article and it is valuable to see the justice system at work,
That $240,000 was just part of $900,000 that Fox admitted in his plea agreement to spending on "women I met online". He also leased a Ferrari for $2200 a month and spent $90,000 on a Corvette ZO6 just before Premier Cru went under.

On the other hand, Fox's cooperation with the FBI on the Yum case, and in explaining how his Ponzi scheme worked, led federal prosecutors to recommend the six-and-a-half-year sentence instead of the 20 years he could have faced, so that was arguably $240,000 well spent. Fox and Premier Cru have declared bankruptcy. Premier Cru had more than $70 million in debt and only $7 million in assets. Moreover, Fox was ordered to pay $45 million restitution to more than 9000 victims; it's unlikely that any of them will see more than pennies on the dollar.

The one count on which Fox pled guilty stemmed from a wire transfer from a Hong Kong collector to a California bank. The collector said he had paid Premier Cru more than $981,000 for 1591 bottles but received fewer than 100 of them.
What a guy!

User avatar
J a y H a c k
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 14218
Joined: May 29th, 2009, 9:59 am
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 19 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7084 Post by J a y H a c k »

ChrisWolff wrote: February 24th, 2021, 9:21 am On what page of this thread does the ponzi scheme become fully visible to all?
I think that the answer is, "before this BB even existed." Here is my post from years ago which quotes something I wrote up in 2007 on eBob. Note that I used the evil B word in the 6th line of my quote from 2007.

I just love to quote myself because the source is authoritative. neener
J a y H a c k wrote: August 22nd, 2016, 10:14 am
james l moleberg wrote: . . . Can you please point out the tinfoil hat people? From reading this point in its entirety, it seems like most of the bashers were entirely correct, and a lot of the supporters are suffering from a bad case of revisionist history.
I was a tinfoil hat guy and I'm proud of it. Here is an extract from my post on eBob from September 3, 2007.

"As an attorney, I have had two matters over the years that involved major ponzi schemes in which an entity took money from customer #2 and used it to satisfy obligations to customer #1. In one case it was little old ladies, but in the other case it appears to have been some of the largest residential mortgage lenders in the US who got stung. I have ZERO evidence that PC may be on the same slippery slope, and I am not accusing them of anything. However, I notice that people on this BB have been singing the same tune for a long time. I do not want to see a lot of people holding an empty bag (or an empty OWC) while pleading their case to a bankruptcy judge. In both of the cases I worked on, there were people with 20-20 hindsight who said "How could people be so stupid? All the signs were there and everyone turned a blind eye because they thought they were getting a real good deal." TANSTAAFL. Maybe it's time for PC to explain what's going on and how they expect to be able to fill orders when the market prices have gone through the roof while the dollar has fallen into the basement."

PS - My nickname is Cassandra.
Yes, that's a DM of 1978 Mouton!

You can read my Financial Institutions Law Blog at https://www.gdblaw.com/blog?practiceID=4985.

User avatar
John S
Posts: 1093
Joined: May 29th, 2009, 11:45 am
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7085 Post by John S »

Stephen Faulkner wrote: February 24th, 2021, 3:05 pm
M A T T H A R T L E Y wrote: February 7th, 2021, 11:41 am The whole thing was a master class in confirmation bias.
Kinda on both sides. Hindsight is 20/20 as they say, but on the other end of that continuum were lots of accusations made with claims of ITB insight over many years, not unlike those that claim the market will crash and eventually it does and they are right. The first post in this thread is 2012 and there are references to these claims going back to eBob so what, 8? 10 yrs? before it crashed? To someone like myself who dabbles in this as a fun hobby, there were too many he said/she saids to know what to think. While I did lose some money, it wasn't enough to lose any sleep over and if I had stopped buying from PC when the first accusations were made, I would have missed out on a lot good wine at great prices that I am glad I bought. That doesn't absolve anyone of being an *sshole to other people. ymmv
This situation is really nothing like a stock market call, which is a guess, and will be correct eventually. With PC many ITB saw what they were doing (or heard) and tried to warn people away. This was based on facts, some extra insights, and probably some rumors as well. Very different than a market pundit outlining why they think the market will go up or down.

I had three separate friends ITB warn me away 10-15 years before they went down. Some told me things that were quite worrisome some simply said to trust them as they did not want to spread what they heard. I did not pipe up much on this thread because of the vilification of anyone who did. I had no more concrete info on what was going on that the vast majority here but simply made my own decision on if I should deal with PC and left it there.
John Sprow

User avatar
Victor Hong
Posts: 20377
Joined: May 30th, 2009, 1:34 pm
Location: Banana Republic of ‘Merica
Been thanked: 25 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7086 Post by Victor Hong »

When James Gillerman kept hemming and hawing about some wines which took too long to deliver, despite being available on its site, I bailed.
WineHunter.

User avatar
Steven Miller
Posts: 2379
Joined: December 14th, 2009, 7:23 am
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7087 Post by Steven Miller »

Amazed this thread woke back up.

I was a small customer of Premier and until the very end I always received what I ordered, and Amex made me whole on the last couple. I even received an order that was shipped the day they filed. I was luckier than many.

I do feel for those who lost thousands upon thousands who didn't know about the risk. This thread is full of many who discovered WB only after the bankruptcy filing.
tread lightly

User avatar
Victor Hong
Posts: 20377
Joined: May 30th, 2009, 1:34 pm
Location: Banana Republic of ‘Merica
Been thanked: 25 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7088 Post by Victor Hong »

Steven Miller wrote: February 28th, 2021, 10:12 am Amazed this thread woke back up.

I was a small customer of Premier and until the very end I always received what I ordered, and Amex made me whole on the last couple. I even received an order that was shipped the day they filed. I was luckier than many.

I do feel for those who lost thousands upon thousands who didn't know about the risk. This thread is full of many who discovered WB only after the bankruptcy filing.
Several banking industry colleagues did so too.
WineHunter.

User avatar
Markus S
Posts: 7179
Joined: May 20th, 2010, 7:27 am
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 31 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7089 Post by Markus S »

William Gladstone wrote: February 24th, 2021, 6:21 pm
And John Fox now gets to walk free?
How is he "walking free"? He got sentenced and served his time. Which is more than can be said of many politicians, businessmen, and other wealthy people who willingly violate laws and walk away scot-free.
$ _ € ® e . k @

User avatar
William Gladstone
BerserkerBusiness
BerserkerBusiness
Posts: 638
Joined: June 12th, 2013, 2:34 am
Location: new york, honolulu, hong kong
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 7 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7090 Post by William Gladstone »

Markus S wrote: February 28th, 2021, 12:11 pm
William Gladstone wrote: February 24th, 2021, 6:21 pm
And John Fox now gets to walk free?
How is he "walking free"? He got sentenced and served his time. Which is more than can be said of many politicians, businessmen, and other wealthy people who willingly violate laws and walk away scot-free.
I've exchanged several emails this week with John Fox. I've expressed my feelings, emotions, thoughts on his past actions,
he was apologetic and expressed other emotions in that vein.
He did lack a complete awareness of the continued loss and pain that continues for individuals and wine businesses who are still
paying legal fee's as a result of his actions.
He asked me if I'd like to be part of his new wine business venture and would I post a notice on Berserker about this.
I informed John I would not expose myself to being seen as endorsing his venture, or the legal ramifications that might arise
from such an action.
I was equally surprised at his apology for harm he caused to me, although other comments he made reminded me of something.
I've a brother who is a sociopath and pathological liar.
Through the privilege of being a white man, who is extremely clever at manipulating the system, he has avoided any real 'time' after
his several arrest that go back to his teen years - through his senior age in his 60's.
I've not maintained a relationship or contact with my brother for several decades, and it was not until we were together when
my dad asked us to come together for his final days as he was passing.
I was shocked how upon circumstance - such as my dad's passing - my brothers actions were criminal in nature.
He wanted to max out my dads credit cards "because who would do anything or know".
His view was so dedicated to that criminal path I was shocked.
I had contacted all of his credit cards to inform them of his passing, prior to learning of my brothers desire. It never occurred to me.
My brother was certain I did this to spite him..
My brother imitated my dad to activate a life time of decisions and choices my dad had made, to reap all of the financial benefit
based on deception. "Whose it hurting?"

My apology if I digressed too far, however - my brothers behavior was so foreign to me and yet so central to how he saw the world.
His choices were not after pursuing a direct or straight path was denied, and then out of anger or disappointment,
rather his choices were the default immediate direction he chose, I learned it is the very core of his character.
Which I simply was not familiar with and could not comprehend.

John Fox has that poison seed in his heart - that is my sense of him. He asked me if I'd like to invest in his scheme. And if I would post on Berserker the scheme.
I told him he should do this all without my participation.

For any who want to communicate directly with John and share your thoughts or feelings, I think that would be a wonderful idea
John Fox <john.foxwine@gmail.com>

Wes Barton
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 4273
Joined: January 29th, 2009, 3:54 am
Been thanked: 25 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7091 Post by Wes Barton »

Steven Miller wrote: February 28th, 2021, 10:12 am Amazed this thread woke back up.

I was a small customer of Premier and until the very end I always received what I ordered, and Amex made me whole on the last couple. I even received an order that was shipped the day they filed. I was luckier than many.

I do feel for those who lost thousands upon thousands who didn't know about the risk. This thread is full of many who discovered WB only after the bankruptcy filing.
They had a two tiered business model. What they had in inventory was sold and delivered without issue (at least to a reasonable standard). While PC's issues go back to the late '90s, apparently, '05 Bdx was a huge red flag. The typical American buy high-sell low hype created a huge boom. "Everyone" knew you could buy futures in a great vintage and see the market value skyrocket. Every retailer knew they could make loads of money selling futures. A whole mess of retailers, from corner liquors stores and up, got in on the game.....without securing contracts for the wine -or- turning around and selling the wine for a huge profit, not honoring the futures contracts with their customers. We saw thread after thread of these complaints. We saw dozens of bad actors have their online reputation terminally tainted by this, but PC's hybrid model and already hooked believers kept them going. Then, the fact they were still standing seems to have reinforced the idea they were doing things differently than that fly-by-night stuff.
ITB - Useless lackey

Can't stand bloody wax capsules.

User avatar
Victor Hong
Posts: 20377
Joined: May 30th, 2009, 1:34 pm
Location: Banana Republic of ‘Merica
Been thanked: 25 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7092 Post by Victor Hong »

William Gladstone wrote: February 28th, 2021, 2:03 pm
Markus S wrote: February 28th, 2021, 12:11 pm
William Gladstone wrote: February 24th, 2021, 6:21 pm
And John Fox now gets to walk free?
How is he "walking free"? He got sentenced and served his time. Which is more than can be said of many politicians, businessmen, and other wealthy people who willingly violate laws and walk away scot-free.
I've exchanged several emails this week with John Fox. I've expressed my feelings, emotions, thoughts on his past actions,
he was apologetic and expressed other emotions in that vein.
He did lack a complete awareness of the continued loss and pain that continues for individuals and wine businesses who are still
paying legal fee's as a result of his actions.
He asked me if I'd like to be part of his new wine business venture and would I post a notice on Berserker about this.
I informed John I would not expose myself to being seen as endorsing his venture, or the legal ramifications that might arise
from such an action.
I was equally surprised at his apology for harm he caused to me, although other comments he made reminded me of something.
I've a brother who is a sociopath and pathological liar.
Through the privilege of being a white man, who is extremely clever at manipulating the system, he has avoided any real 'time' after
his several arrest that go back to his teen years - through his senior age in his 60's.
I've not maintained a relationship or contact with my brother for several decades, and it was not until we were together when
my dad asked us to come together for his final days as he was passing.
I was shocked how upon circumstance - such as my dad's passing - my brothers actions were criminal in nature.
He wanted to max out my dads credit cards "because who would do anything or know".
His view was so dedicated to that criminal path I was shocked.
I had contacted all of his credit cards to inform them of his passing, prior to learning of my brothers desire. It never occurred to me.
My brother was certain I did this to spite him..
My brother imitated my dad to activate a life time of decisions and choices my dad had made, to reap all of the financial benefit
based on deception. "Whose it hurting?"

My apology if I digressed too far, however - my brothers behavior was so foreign to me and yet so central to how he saw the world.
His choices were not after pursuing a direct or straight path was denied, and then out of anger or disappointment,
rather his choices were the default immediate direction he chose, I learned it is the very core of his character.
Which I simply was not familiar with and could not comprehend.

John Fox has that poison seed in his heart - that is my sense of him. He asked me if I'd like to invest in his scheme. And if I would post on Berserker the scheme.
I told him he should do this all without my participation.

For any who want to communicate directly with John and share your thoughts or feelings, I think that would be a wonderful idea
John Fox <john.foxwine@gmail.com>
So sorry. Your story reminds me of my brother.
WineHunter.

User avatar
Markus S
Posts: 7179
Joined: May 20th, 2010, 7:27 am
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 31 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7093 Post by Markus S »

William Gladstone wrote: February 28th, 2021, 2:03 pm
Markus S wrote: February 28th, 2021, 12:11 pm
William Gladstone wrote: February 24th, 2021, 6:21 pm
And John Fox now gets to walk free?
How is he "walking free"? He got sentenced and served his time. Which is more than can be said of many politicians, businessmen, and other wealthy people who willingly violate laws and walk away scot-free.
I've exchanged several emails this week with John Fox. I've expressed my feelings, emotions, thoughts on his past actions,
he was apologetic and expressed other emotions in that vein.
He did lack a complete awareness of the continued loss and pain that continues for individuals and wine businesses who are still
paying legal fee's as a result of his actions.
He asked me if I'd like to be part of his new wine business venture and would I post a notice on Berserker about this.
I informed John I would not expose myself to being seen as endorsing his venture, or the legal ramifications that might arise
from such an action.
I was equally surprised at his apology for harm he caused to me, although other comments he made reminded me of something.
I've a brother who is a sociopath and pathological liar.
Through the privilege of being a white man, who is extremely clever at manipulating the system, he has avoided any real 'time' after
his several arrest that go back to his teen years - through his senior age in his 60's.
I've not maintained a relationship or contact with my brother for several decades, and it was not until we were together when
my dad asked us to come together for his final days as he was passing.
I was shocked how upon circumstance - such as my dad's passing - my brothers actions were criminal in nature.
He wanted to max out my dads credit cards "because who would do anything or know".
His view was so dedicated to that criminal path I was shocked.
I had contacted all of his credit cards to inform them of his passing, prior to learning of my brothers desire. It never occurred to me.
My brother was certain I did this to spite him..
My brother imitated my dad to activate a life time of decisions and choices my dad had made, to reap all of the financial benefit
based on deception. "Whose it hurting?"

My apology if I digressed too far, however - my brothers behavior was so foreign to me and yet so central to how he saw the world.
His choices were not after pursuing a direct or straight path was denied, and then out of anger or disappointment,
rather his choices were the default immediate direction he chose, I learned it is the very core of his character.
Which I simply was not familiar with and could not comprehend.

John Fox has that poison seed in his heart - that is my sense of him. He asked me if I'd like to invest in his scheme. And if I would post on Berserker the scheme.
I told him he should do this all without my participation.

For any who want to communicate directly with John and share your thoughts or feelings, I think that would be a wonderful idea
John Fox <john.foxwine@gmail.com>
Wow. I'm sorry to hear of your brother (and John, too). While it's true that some people may "pay for their crimes" (by going to jail, our society's equivalent), it is much harder to turn around or change a person's mindset. Sometimes people find God under time served; other times, the inmate is simply scheming his next mark. I don't expect everyone to have the scales fall from their eyes to make the blind see, but sometimes it happens...and sad when it doesn't.
$ _ € ® e . k @

User avatar
William Gladstone
BerserkerBusiness
BerserkerBusiness
Posts: 638
Joined: June 12th, 2013, 2:34 am
Location: new york, honolulu, hong kong
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 7 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7094 Post by William Gladstone »

Victor Hong wrote: February 28th, 2021, 2:53 pm
William Gladstone wrote: February 28th, 2021, 2:03 pm
Markus S wrote: February 28th, 2021, 12:11 pm

How is he "walking free"? He got sentenced and served his time. Which is more than can be said of many politicians, businessmen, and other wealthy people who willingly violate laws and walk away scot-free.
I've exchanged several emails this week with John Fox. I've expressed my feelings, emotions, thoughts on his past actions,
he was apologetic and expressed other emotions in that vein.
He did lack a complete awareness of the continued loss and pain that continues for individuals and wine businesses who are still
paying legal fee's as a result of his actions.
He asked me if I'd like to be part of his new wine business venture and would I post a notice on Berserker about this.
I informed John I would not expose myself to being seen as endorsing his venture, or the legal ramifications that might arise
from such an action.
I was equally surprised at his apology for harm he caused to me, although other comments he made reminded me of something.
I've a brother who is a sociopath and pathological liar.
Through the privilege of being a white man, who is extremely clever at manipulating the system, he has avoided any real 'time' after
his several arrest that go back to his teen years - through his senior age in his 60's.
I've not maintained a relationship or contact with my brother for several decades, and it was not until we were together when
my dad asked us to come together for his final days as he was passing.
I was shocked how upon circumstance - such as my dad's passing - my brothers actions were criminal in nature.
He wanted to max out my dads credit cards "because who would do anything or know".
His view was so dedicated to that criminal path I was shocked.
I had contacted all of his credit cards to inform them of his passing, prior to learning of my brothers desire. It never occurred to me.
My brother was certain I did this to spite him..
My brother imitated my dad to activate a life time of decisions and choices my dad had made, to reap all of the financial benefit
based on deception. "Whose it hurting?"

My apology if I digressed too far, however - my brothers behavior was so foreign to me and yet so central to how he saw the world.
His choices were not after pursuing a direct or straight path was denied, and then out of anger or disappointment,
rather his choices were the default immediate direction he chose, I learned it is the very core of his character.
Which I simply was not familiar with and could not comprehend.

John Fox has that poison seed in his heart - that is my sense of him. He asked me if I'd like to invest in his scheme. And if I would post on Berserker the scheme.
I told him he should do this all without my participation.

For any who want to communicate directly with John and share your thoughts or feelings, I think that would be a wonderful idea
John Fox <john.foxwine@gmail.com>
So sorry. Your story reminds me of my brother.
I'm just Naivete and a fool, yet when I was 15 y.o. he was arrested for stealing a car and joyriding, when my dad brought him home from the police station I have this indelible image of them and saying to myself "this will go on my entire life with him"...
he dealt drugs for 30 years.. I could never get over how can someone lie while looking you straight in the face and he has to know that I know he is lying?
Some things John said in the couple of emails we exchanged reminded me of whom I am dealing with..

User avatar
Dennis Atick
Monopole Crü
Monopole Crü
Posts: 9072
Joined: January 27th, 2009, 6:48 pm
Location: East Atlanta
Has thanked: 79 times
Been thanked: 36 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7095 Post by Dennis Atick »

[popcorn.gif] [berserker.gif]
@decaturwinedude

User avatar
Larry Stein
Posts: 2097
Joined: April 17th, 2009, 2:27 pm
Location: Belmont CA
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7096 Post by Larry Stein »

John, I have a really hard time believing it's you so I'm going to pose this question. If your answer is correct, then the above isn't a troll post.

Who was my best friend who used to bug the sh*t out of you when 1985 Burgundies were released? He and I also used to hang out at the original store location and we'd get you to open bottles after closing.

User avatar
Robert M yers
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 3594
Joined: March 10th, 2010, 8:24 pm
Location: Cleveland
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 13 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7097 Post by Robert M yers »

might want to start here

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=55

name dropping Lazar seems an odd choice pileon [scratch.gif]
Last edited by Robert M yers on March 1st, 2021, 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Rodrigo B
Monopole Crü
Monopole Crü
Posts: 1118
Joined: June 9th, 2020, 11:21 pm
Location: New York
Has thanked: 42 times
Been thanked: 124 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7098 Post by Rodrigo B »

[popcorn.gif]
B r @ g @

User avatar
William Gladstone
BerserkerBusiness
BerserkerBusiness
Posts: 638
Joined: June 12th, 2013, 2:34 am
Location: new york, honolulu, hong kong
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 7 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7099 Post by William Gladstone »

Robert M yers wrote: March 1st, 2021, 5:27 pm might want to start here

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=55

name dropping Lazar seems an odd choice pileon [scratch.gif]
"You may want to start here suggestion" - I had that thought but shied away from such a daunting request.
that would be perhaps quite valuable & like running the gauntlet

User avatar
Don Cornwell
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 1729
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 1:24 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Been thanked: 12 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7100 Post by Don Cornwell »

J0HN F0X wrote: March 1st, 2021, 4:53 pmDeleted by mod
I think this business plan has a big problem. Pursuant to Article XX, Section 22 of the California Constitution and California Business & Professions Code § 24200(d) the ABC has the authority (and duty) to revoke the liquor license of anyone convicted of a crime involving moral turpitude. The same rules apply to new applicants. In Rice v.Alcoholic Beverage Control Appeals Board, 89 Cal.App.3d 30, 37-38 (1979), the court held that moral turpitude is inherent in crimes involving fraudulent intent, intentional dishonesty for purposes of personal gain or other corrupt purpose; conviction is sufficient standing alone for license revocation. In Kirby v. Alcoholic Beverage Control Appeals Board, 270 Cal.App.2d 535, 540 (1969) the court held that any Federal conviction involving fraud is automatically a crime involving moral turpitude for the purposes of license revocation. Suffice it to say that winery will never be licensed.

I think the real John Fox will need a new line of business.
Don Cornwell
Oxidized Burgs Wiki
http://www.gdeschamps.net/wiki/doku.php?id=start

Post Reply

Return to “Wine Talk”