Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

Tasting notes, varietals, grapes - anything related to wine
Message
Author
User avatar
John Morris
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 16499
Joined: June 21st, 2009, 2:09 pm
Location: Gotham

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7001 Post by John Morris » June 11th, 2019, 4:25 pm

Yes, the Madoff trustee has been extremely aggressive and has done an amazing job recovering what could be recovered and distributing it equitably. (Of course, the target of the clawbacks have a different view.)
"I'm a Frisbeetarian. We worship frisbees. We believe when you die your soul goes up on the roof and you can't get it down." – Jim Stafford

"The Internet has resulted in an exponential increase in the number of instances in which humor must be explained." - me, 2019

Tim Fleming
Posts: 22
Joined: February 20th, 2014, 12:14 pm

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7002 Post by Tim Fleming » June 11th, 2019, 4:38 pm

And for that amazing job Picard's law firm ( Madoff trustee) has pocketed 1.2 billion in fees and counting.

User avatar
Pat Martin
Posts: 2578
Joined: May 22nd, 2011, 11:38 pm

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7003 Post by Pat Martin » June 11th, 2019, 5:08 pm

Tim Fleming wrote:
June 11th, 2019, 4:38 pm
And for that amazing job Picard's law firm ( Madoff trustee) has pocketed 1.2 billion in fees and counting.
Yes, they’re getting their pound of flesh to be sure.
P@ tr!ck M 8rt!n

User avatar
Al Osterheld
Posts: 5338
Joined: March 15th, 2009, 5:47 am
Location: SF Bay

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7004 Post by Al Osterheld » June 11th, 2019, 6:58 pm

BTW, the link to the info site on the Premer Cru bankruptcy proceedings is given below:

https://www.bmcgroup.com/restructuring/ ... ientID=384

-Al

pnitze
Posts: 65
Joined: February 13th, 2012, 7:32 am

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7005 Post by pnitze » June 19th, 2019, 7:19 pm

So I'm just reading through today's filings in the bankruptcy proceeding, dealing with the priority status of customer claims. The declaration of the trustee states that the total value of the approximately 2,150 customer claims is approximately $3.9 million. It further states that the trustee anticipates that the net recovery available for distribution, after administrative fees, will (slightly) exceed $3.9 million. Does this mean that if all customer claims are given priority status, the customer claims will be paid out at 100 cents on the dollar?

See the declaration here:
https://docs.bmcgroup.com/en/384/20190619-3.pdf

This result seems entirely implausible to me. Am I missing something here? Will PC customers really get 100 or nearly 100 cents back on the dollar on their claims?
P@ul N!tze

pnitze
Posts: 65
Joined: February 13th, 2012, 7:32 am

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7006 Post by pnitze » June 19th, 2019, 7:24 pm

One other thing I found interesting. The Kasolas declaration defines "Customer Claims" to exclude (1) claims by businesses for undelivered wine, and (2) claims by individuals for undelivered wine intended for non-personal use. Perhaps this is covered earlier in this (very long) thread, but does this mean that a large % of the aggregate value of the claims for undelivered wine relate to wine that was not purchased by individuals for their personal use?
P@ul N!tze

Matthew Hunt
Posts: 1
Joined: November 13th, 2016, 5:53 pm

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7007 Post by Matthew Hunt » June 22nd, 2019, 6:45 am

pnitze wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 7:19 pm
This result seems entirely implausible to me. Am I missing something here? Will PC customers really get 100 or nearly 100 cents back on the dollar on their claims?
That's how I read it, and I think the key is that it would only be for the amount up to the priority limit of $2,850. The folks who take losses would be those whose claim exceeds that amount, along with the non-personal-use claims as you said.

User avatar
Al Osterheld
Posts: 5338
Joined: March 15th, 2009, 5:47 am
Location: SF Bay

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7008 Post by Al Osterheld » June 22nd, 2019, 6:52 am

Yes, except priority limit was $2,775 at the time of the bankruptcy filing (and when claims were filed). The trustee has also filed a final report and some other documents, but need a PACER account to access them.

-Al

User avatar
Tom K.
BerserkerBusiness
BerserkerBusiness
Posts: 354
Joined: October 13th, 2011, 7:11 pm
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Contact:

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7009 Post by Tom K. » June 22nd, 2019, 8:07 am

Al Osterheld wrote:
June 22nd, 2019, 6:52 am
Yes, except priority limit was $2,775 at the time of the bankruptcy filing (and when claims were filed). The trustee has also filed a final report and some other documents, but need a PACER account to access them.

-Al
Meaning any and all claims are capped at $2,775?
Tom Kobylarz
Wine Solutions

pnitze
Posts: 65
Joined: February 13th, 2012, 7:32 am

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7010 Post by pnitze » June 22nd, 2019, 10:37 am

“Yes, except priority limit was $2,775 at the time of the bankruptcy filing (and when claims were filed). The trustee has also filed a final report and some other documents, but need a PACER account to access them.

-Al”

This now makes sense. I was wondering how 2,150 claims could be valued at only $3.9 million. Claims in excess of the priority limit may be paid out, though it appears recovery of non-priority claims will be at most a penny on the dollar.
P@ul N!tze

User avatar
Victor Hong
Posts: 14480
Joined: May 30th, 2009, 1:34 pm

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7011 Post by Victor Hong » June 22nd, 2019, 2:13 pm

This farking disaster has truly ruined a once-joyful hobby for many burned consumers.

May John Fox, Brian Nishi, and James Gillerman savor full and poetic justice.
WineHunter.

User avatar
William Gladstone
BerserkerBusiness
BerserkerBusiness
Posts: 446
Joined: June 12th, 2013, 2:34 am
Location: new york, honolulu, hong kong

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7012 Post by William Gladstone » June 22nd, 2019, 4:07 pm

pnitze wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 7:19 pm
So I'm just reading through today's filings in the bankruptcy proceeding, dealing with the priority status of customer claims. The declaration of the trustee states that the total value of the approximately 2,150 customer claims is approximately $3.9 million. It further states that the trustee anticipates that the net recovery available for distribution, after administrative fees, will (slightly) exceed $3.9 million. Does this mean that if all customer claims are given priority status, the customer claims will be paid out at 100 cents on the dollar?

See the declaration here:
https://docs.bmcgroup.com/en/384/20190619-3.pdf

This result seems entirely implausible to me. Am I missing something here? Will PC customers really get 100 or nearly 100 cents back on the dollar on their claims?
Keeping in mind - that the attorney's hired by the Trustee are taking in 40% of what they collect - now - “isn’t that special” - and warm your chestnuts all over.
From the words submitted to the Judge presiding on the case from the State's attorney prosecuting the case - I think that he has fallen in love with John Fox, whom I hope found a nice husband in jail to fill in for the numerous lovers he was paying while outside the jail.
Although I do not know if he has been able to maintain his high quality standard that he had while on the outside, instead of purchasing the wines he was paid to supply he was sending upwards of $900,000.oo via Paypal to woman he met online, what a guy!

Karma should hopefully dish out to Mr. Fox his just reward when he is out in the world...

User avatar
Victor Hong
Posts: 14480
Joined: May 30th, 2009, 1:34 pm

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7013 Post by Victor Hong » June 22nd, 2019, 5:21 pm

Better if he can savor justice while in this world.
WineHunter.

User avatar
Steven Miller
Posts: 2312
Joined: December 14th, 2009, 7:23 am
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7014 Post by Steven Miller » July 3rd, 2019, 2:39 pm

Today's update -- Battle with Amex.

I was fortunate to only have a few hundred $$ in outstanding recent orders which Amex credited to me (at the time).

https://docs.bmcgroup.com/en/384/20190702-1.pdf
tread lightly

ChristopherSK
Posts: 119
Joined: June 8th, 2018, 8:49 am
Location: Philly area most of the time

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7015 Post by ChristopherSK » August 26th, 2019, 4:39 pm

Has anyone considered or instituted a civil action against employees of premier cru for fraud? Meaning the employees that had knowledge that they were involved in a fraud, and played along and made false statements in order to gain commissions; and I am not sure who all if any were paid in commissions as a motivation to continue to make materially false statements? Arguably they would be personally liable for fraud committed during their job if they have the requisite level of knowledge. A few issues. If CA has a 3 years statute of limitations of fraud there might be time. Does that begin running when the fraud was discovered; if so, that could be at the time of the bankruptcy court filings which means that people have a few months to file. Second, what level of knowledge of the falsity of the material representations to the plaintiff is needed in order to for the employee to be civilly liable for fraud.

The poetic justice against the employees who had the requisite knowledge would be a judgment against them that they could not discharge in a bankruptcy court filing as (and I am not 100% sure) I don't think you can discharge a judgment in which there is a finding of fraud.
Chri$toph3r S K0y$te

ChristopherSK
Posts: 119
Joined: June 8th, 2018, 8:49 am
Location: Philly area most of the time

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7016 Post by ChristopherSK » August 26th, 2019, 4:46 pm

Crap. Just looked at the bankruptcy filing. It's more than 3 years ago.
Chri$toph3r S K0y$te

User avatar
Victor Hong
Posts: 14480
Joined: May 30th, 2009, 1:34 pm

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7017 Post by Victor Hong » August 26th, 2019, 5:18 pm

James Gillerman and Brian Nishi must have counted down the days.
WineHunter.

User avatar
Markus S
Posts: 5893
Joined: May 20th, 2010, 7:27 am

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7018 Post by Markus S » August 26th, 2019, 5:43 pm

Victor Hong wrote:
August 26th, 2019, 5:18 pm
James Gillerman and Brian Nishi must have counted down the days.
Huh?
$ _ € ® e . k @

Dale Williams
Posts: 1186
Joined: April 27th, 2009, 10:19 am

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7019 Post by Dale Williams » August 29th, 2019, 11:21 am

I don't have Lexis/Nexis access, but from headline looks like AIG prevailed in suit from the Hasans who were suing their insurers over undelivered wines

https://www.law360.com/insurance/articl ... verage-row

User avatar
John Morris
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 16499
Joined: June 21st, 2009, 2:09 pm
Location: Gotham

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7020 Post by John Morris » August 29th, 2019, 12:41 pm

ChristopherSK wrote:
August 26th, 2019, 4:39 pm
Has anyone considered or instituted a civil action against employees of premier cru for fraud? Meaning the employees that had knowledge that they were involved in a fraud, and played along and made false statements in order to gain commissions; and I am not sure who all if any were paid in commissions as a motivation to continue to make materially false statements? Arguably they would be personally liable for fraud committed during their job if they have the requisite level of knowledge.
Apart from the statute of limitations issue, there's the blood-from-a-stone issue.
"I'm a Frisbeetarian. We worship frisbees. We believe when you die your soul goes up on the roof and you can't get it down." – Jim Stafford

"The Internet has resulted in an exponential increase in the number of instances in which humor must be explained." - me, 2019

ChristopherSK
Posts: 119
Joined: June 8th, 2018, 8:49 am
Location: Philly area most of the time

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7021 Post by ChristopherSK » August 30th, 2019, 6:54 am

Having "empty at the moment pockets" is certainly a reason to potentially forgo a fraud action. However, California has wage attachments. A judgment could turn into a lifelong annuity payment of a couple of thousand dollars a year with post judgment interest continuing to accrue.
Chri$toph3r S K0y$te

User avatar
Al Osterheld
Posts: 5338
Joined: March 15th, 2009, 5:47 am
Location: SF Bay

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7022 Post by Al Osterheld » August 30th, 2019, 7:13 am

Someone has to pay the lawyer to sue them. There is also the issue of proving a case, "how could they not know" would not be enough.

-Al

User avatar
Ken V
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 38520
Joined: January 27th, 2009, 12:42 pm
Location: Delmar, NY
Contact:

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7023 Post by Ken V » August 30th, 2019, 7:18 am

Let it be, let it be, let it be, let it be
Whisper words of wisdom, let it be
And when the broken-hearted people living in the world agree
There will be an answer, let it be
For though they may be parted, there is still a chance that they will see
There will be an answer, let it be
Ken V @ s t o l @
The Fine Wine Geek
Click on the W W W button under my name to see my website.
"Don't be meek, embrace the geek." -Terry Theise
Twitter: @FineWineGeek

ChristopherSK
Posts: 119
Joined: June 8th, 2018, 8:49 am
Location: Philly area most of the time

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7024 Post by ChristopherSK » August 30th, 2019, 7:40 am

Agreed, those lawyers gotta be paid. How could "they" the employees know or not know about the falsity? (Note, I am not suggesting who if any had requisite knowledge) In the civil context it's only a burden of proof of mere probability. A lot easier to establish versus beyond a reasonable doubt. Pre-litigation interviews of a few of the employees who left after a few weeks or a couple of months after they started working there could demonstrate the requisite knowledge of "enough" facts. And then there is depositions after filing suit, and what could be established there.

A suit against some of the employees was something I contemplated, but I luckily did not get stung with a claw back for my "pre-sell wine converted to in stock wines" received within 90 days of the bankruptcy filing. I am throwing this out there as I wondered if anyone was thinking what I was thinking, and got stung in the clawback and had a reason to seek to recover money against someone other than John Fox himself. There might be some judgments out there. (Edit addition. Meaning, there might be some poetic justice, but we are not aware of it.)
Last edited by ChristopherSK on August 30th, 2019, 8:46 am, edited 2 times in total.
Chri$toph3r S K0y$te

User avatar
Victor Hong
Posts: 14480
Joined: May 30th, 2009, 1:34 pm

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7025 Post by Victor Hong » August 30th, 2019, 8:19 am

ChristopherSK wrote:
August 30th, 2019, 7:40 am
Agreed, those lawyers gotta be paid. How could "they" the employees know or not know about the falsity? (Note, I am not suggesting who if any had requisite knowledge) In the civil context it's only a burden of proof of mere probability. A lot easier to establish versus beyond a reasonable doubt. Pre-litigation interviews of a few of the employees who left after a few weeks or a couple of months after they started working there could demonstrate the requisite knowledge of "enough" facts. And then there is depositions after filing suit, and what could be established there.

A suit against some of the employees was something I contemplated, but I luckily did not get stung with a claw back for my "pre-sell wine converted to in stock wines" received within 90 days of the bankruptcy filing. I am throwing this out there as I wondered if anyone was thinking what I was thinking, and got stung in the clawback and had a reason to seek to recover money against someone other than John Fox himself. There might be some judgments out there.
That statement may create clawback exposure.
WineHunter.

ChristopherSK
Posts: 119
Joined: June 8th, 2018, 8:49 am
Location: Philly area most of the time

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7026 Post by ChristopherSK » August 30th, 2019, 8:23 am

I was thankfully under the needed amount which is why they could not seek clawback. (BTW, see my edit addition. There very well might be some poetic justice out there, but we are not aware of it. It's possible that someone initiated suit against an employee or two in jurisdictions other than California, alleging that the employee opened themselves up to jurisdiction in other states based upon communications via telephone and email and shipped deliveries with individuals in which the employee knew were out of state. There could be judgments in New York, Illinois, etc.)
Chri$toph3r S K0y$te

Post Reply

Return to “Wine Talk”