Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

Tasting notes, varietals, grapes - anything related to wine
Message
Author
User avatar
John Morris
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 18599
Joined: June 21st, 2009, 2:09 pm
Location: Gotham
Has thanked: 22 times
Been thanked: 59 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7001 Post by John Morris »

Yes, the Madoff trustee has been extremely aggressive and has done an amazing job recovering what could be recovered and distributing it equitably. (Of course, the target of the clawbacks have a different view.)
Not my circus, not my monkeys.

Tim Fleming
Posts: 31
Joined: February 20th, 2014, 12:14 pm
Has thanked: 2 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7002 Post by Tim Fleming »

And for that amazing job Picard's law firm ( Madoff trustee) has pocketed 1.2 billion in fees and counting.

User avatar
Pat Martin
Posts: 2892
Joined: May 22nd, 2011, 11:38 pm
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 16 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7003 Post by Pat Martin »

Tim Fleming wrote: June 11th, 2019, 4:38 pm And for that amazing job Picard's law firm ( Madoff trustee) has pocketed 1.2 billion in fees and counting.
Yes, they’re getting their pound of flesh to be sure.
P@ tr!ck M 8rt!n

User avatar
Al Osterheld
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 7654
Joined: March 15th, 2009, 5:47 am
Location: SF Bay
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 25 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7004 Post by Al Osterheld »

BTW, the link to the info site on the Premer Cru bankruptcy proceedings is given below:

https://www.bmcgroup.com/restructuring/ ... ientID=384

-Al

pnitze
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 108
Joined: February 13th, 2012, 7:32 am
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7005 Post by pnitze »

So I'm just reading through today's filings in the bankruptcy proceeding, dealing with the priority status of customer claims. The declaration of the trustee states that the total value of the approximately 2,150 customer claims is approximately $3.9 million. It further states that the trustee anticipates that the net recovery available for distribution, after administrative fees, will (slightly) exceed $3.9 million. Does this mean that if all customer claims are given priority status, the customer claims will be paid out at 100 cents on the dollar?

See the declaration here:
https://docs.bmcgroup.com/en/384/20190619-3.pdf

This result seems entirely implausible to me. Am I missing something here? Will PC customers really get 100 or nearly 100 cents back on the dollar on their claims?
P@ul N!tze

pnitze
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 108
Joined: February 13th, 2012, 7:32 am
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7006 Post by pnitze »

One other thing I found interesting. The Kasolas declaration defines "Customer Claims" to exclude (1) claims by businesses for undelivered wine, and (2) claims by individuals for undelivered wine intended for non-personal use. Perhaps this is covered earlier in this (very long) thread, but does this mean that a large % of the aggregate value of the claims for undelivered wine relate to wine that was not purchased by individuals for their personal use?
P@ul N!tze

Matthew Hunt
Posts: 1
Joined: November 13th, 2016, 5:53 pm

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7007 Post by Matthew Hunt »

pnitze wrote: June 19th, 2019, 7:19 pm This result seems entirely implausible to me. Am I missing something here? Will PC customers really get 100 or nearly 100 cents back on the dollar on their claims?
That's how I read it, and I think the key is that it would only be for the amount up to the priority limit of $2,850. The folks who take losses would be those whose claim exceeds that amount, along with the non-personal-use claims as you said.

User avatar
Al Osterheld
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 7654
Joined: March 15th, 2009, 5:47 am
Location: SF Bay
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 25 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7008 Post by Al Osterheld »

Yes, except priority limit was $2,775 at the time of the bankruptcy filing (and when claims were filed). The trustee has also filed a final report and some other documents, but need a PACER account to access them.

-Al

User avatar
Tom K.
BerserkerBusiness
BerserkerBusiness
Posts: 412
Joined: October 13th, 2011, 7:11 pm
Location: Cary, NC
Contact:

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7009 Post by Tom K. »

Al Osterheld wrote: June 22nd, 2019, 6:52 am Yes, except priority limit was $2,775 at the time of the bankruptcy filing (and when claims were filed). The trustee has also filed a final report and some other documents, but need a PACER account to access them.

-Al
Meaning any and all claims are capped at $2,775?
Tom Kobylarz
Wine Solutions

pnitze
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 108
Joined: February 13th, 2012, 7:32 am
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7010 Post by pnitze »

“Yes, except priority limit was $2,775 at the time of the bankruptcy filing (and when claims were filed). The trustee has also filed a final report and some other documents, but need a PACER account to access them.

-Al”

This now makes sense. I was wondering how 2,150 claims could be valued at only $3.9 million. Claims in excess of the priority limit may be paid out, though it appears recovery of non-priority claims will be at most a penny on the dollar.
P@ul N!tze

User avatar
Victor Hong
Posts: 20374
Joined: May 30th, 2009, 1:34 pm
Location: Banana Republic of ‘Merica
Been thanked: 24 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7011 Post by Victor Hong »

This farking disaster has truly ruined a once-joyful hobby for many burned consumers.

May John Fox, Brian Nishi, and James Gillerman savor full and poetic justice.
WineHunter.

User avatar
William Gladstone
BerserkerBusiness
BerserkerBusiness
Posts: 637
Joined: June 12th, 2013, 2:34 am
Location: new york, honolulu, hong kong
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 7 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7012 Post by William Gladstone »

pnitze wrote: June 19th, 2019, 7:19 pm So I'm just reading through today's filings in the bankruptcy proceeding, dealing with the priority status of customer claims. The declaration of the trustee states that the total value of the approximately 2,150 customer claims is approximately $3.9 million. It further states that the trustee anticipates that the net recovery available for distribution, after administrative fees, will (slightly) exceed $3.9 million. Does this mean that if all customer claims are given priority status, the customer claims will be paid out at 100 cents on the dollar?

See the declaration here:
https://docs.bmcgroup.com/en/384/20190619-3.pdf

This result seems entirely implausible to me. Am I missing something here? Will PC customers really get 100 or nearly 100 cents back on the dollar on their claims?
Keeping in mind - that the attorney's hired by the Trustee are taking in 40% of what they collect - now - “isn’t that special” - and warm your chestnuts all over.
From the words submitted to the Judge presiding on the case from the State's attorney prosecuting the case - I think that he has fallen in love with John Fox, whom I hope found a nice husband in jail to fill in for the numerous lovers he was paying while outside the jail.
Although I do not know if he has been able to maintain his high quality standard that he had while on the outside, instead of purchasing the wines he was paid to supply he was sending upwards of $900,000.oo via Paypal to woman he met online, what a guy!

Karma should hopefully dish out to Mr. Fox his just reward when he is out in the world...

User avatar
Victor Hong
Posts: 20374
Joined: May 30th, 2009, 1:34 pm
Location: Banana Republic of ‘Merica
Been thanked: 24 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7013 Post by Victor Hong »

Better if he can savor justice while in this world.
WineHunter.

User avatar
Steven Miller
Posts: 2379
Joined: December 14th, 2009, 7:23 am
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7014 Post by Steven Miller »

Today's update -- Battle with Amex.

I was fortunate to only have a few hundred $$ in outstanding recent orders which Amex credited to me (at the time).

https://docs.bmcgroup.com/en/384/20190702-1.pdf
tread lightly

ChristopherSK
Posts: 129
Joined: June 8th, 2018, 8:49 am
Location: Philly area most of the time

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7015 Post by ChristopherSK »

Has anyone considered or instituted a civil action against employees of premier cru for fraud? Meaning the employees that had knowledge that they were involved in a fraud, and played along and made false statements in order to gain commissions; and I am not sure who all if any were paid in commissions as a motivation to continue to make materially false statements? Arguably they would be personally liable for fraud committed during their job if they have the requisite level of knowledge. A few issues. If CA has a 3 years statute of limitations of fraud there might be time. Does that begin running when the fraud was discovered; if so, that could be at the time of the bankruptcy court filings which means that people have a few months to file. Second, what level of knowledge of the falsity of the material representations to the plaintiff is needed in order to for the employee to be civilly liable for fraud.

The poetic justice against the employees who had the requisite knowledge would be a judgment against them that they could not discharge in a bankruptcy court filing as (and I am not 100% sure) I don't think you can discharge a judgment in which there is a finding of fraud.
Chri$toph3r S K0y$te

ChristopherSK
Posts: 129
Joined: June 8th, 2018, 8:49 am
Location: Philly area most of the time

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7016 Post by ChristopherSK »

Crap. Just looked at the bankruptcy filing. It's more than 3 years ago.
Chri$toph3r S K0y$te

User avatar
Victor Hong
Posts: 20374
Joined: May 30th, 2009, 1:34 pm
Location: Banana Republic of ‘Merica
Been thanked: 24 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7017 Post by Victor Hong »

James Gillerman and Brian Nishi must have counted down the days.
WineHunter.

User avatar
Markus S
Posts: 7179
Joined: May 20th, 2010, 7:27 am
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 31 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7018 Post by Markus S »

Victor Hong wrote: August 26th, 2019, 5:18 pm James Gillerman and Brian Nishi must have counted down the days.
Huh?
$ _ € ® e . k @

Dale Williams
Posts: 1324
Joined: April 27th, 2009, 10:19 am
Been thanked: 9 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7019 Post by Dale Williams »

I don't have Lexis/Nexis access, but from headline looks like AIG prevailed in suit from the Hasans who were suing their insurers over undelivered wines

https://www.law360.com/insurance/articl ... verage-row

User avatar
John Morris
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 18599
Joined: June 21st, 2009, 2:09 pm
Location: Gotham
Has thanked: 22 times
Been thanked: 59 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7020 Post by John Morris »

ChristopherSK wrote: August 26th, 2019, 4:39 pm Has anyone considered or instituted a civil action against employees of premier cru for fraud? Meaning the employees that had knowledge that they were involved in a fraud, and played along and made false statements in order to gain commissions; and I am not sure who all if any were paid in commissions as a motivation to continue to make materially false statements? Arguably they would be personally liable for fraud committed during their job if they have the requisite level of knowledge.
Apart from the statute of limitations issue, there's the blood-from-a-stone issue.
Not my circus, not my monkeys.

ChristopherSK
Posts: 129
Joined: June 8th, 2018, 8:49 am
Location: Philly area most of the time

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7021 Post by ChristopherSK »

Having "empty at the moment pockets" is certainly a reason to potentially forgo a fraud action. However, California has wage attachments. A judgment could turn into a lifelong annuity payment of a couple of thousand dollars a year with post judgment interest continuing to accrue.
Chri$toph3r S K0y$te

User avatar
Al Osterheld
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 7654
Joined: March 15th, 2009, 5:47 am
Location: SF Bay
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 25 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7022 Post by Al Osterheld »

Someone has to pay the lawyer to sue them. There is also the issue of proving a case, "how could they not know" would not be enough.

-Al

User avatar
Ken V
Posts: 38626
Joined: January 27th, 2009, 12:42 pm
Location: Delmar, NY
Contact:

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7023 Post by Ken V »

Let it be, let it be, let it be, let it be
Whisper words of wisdom, let it be
And when the broken-hearted people living in the world agree
There will be an answer, let it be
For though they may be parted, there is still a chance that they will see
There will be an answer, let it be
Ken V @ s t o l @
The Fine Wine Geek
Click on the W W W button under my name to see my website.
"Don't be meek, embrace the geek." -Terry Theise
Twitter: @FineWineGeek

ChristopherSK
Posts: 129
Joined: June 8th, 2018, 8:49 am
Location: Philly area most of the time

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7024 Post by ChristopherSK »

Agreed, those lawyers gotta be paid. How could "they" the employees know or not know about the falsity? (Note, I am not suggesting who if any had requisite knowledge) In the civil context it's only a burden of proof of mere probability. A lot easier to establish versus beyond a reasonable doubt. Pre-litigation interviews of a few of the employees who left after a few weeks or a couple of months after they started working there could demonstrate the requisite knowledge of "enough" facts. And then there is depositions after filing suit, and what could be established there.

A suit against some of the employees was something I contemplated, but I luckily did not get stung with a claw back for my "pre-sell wine converted to in stock wines" received within 90 days of the bankruptcy filing. I am throwing this out there as I wondered if anyone was thinking what I was thinking, and got stung in the clawback and had a reason to seek to recover money against someone other than John Fox himself. There might be some judgments out there. (Edit addition. Meaning, there might be some poetic justice, but we are not aware of it.)
Last edited by ChristopherSK on August 30th, 2019, 8:46 am, edited 2 times in total.
Chri$toph3r S K0y$te

User avatar
Victor Hong
Posts: 20374
Joined: May 30th, 2009, 1:34 pm
Location: Banana Republic of ‘Merica
Been thanked: 24 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7025 Post by Victor Hong »

ChristopherSK wrote: August 30th, 2019, 7:40 am Agreed, those lawyers gotta be paid. How could "they" the employees know or not know about the falsity? (Note, I am not suggesting who if any had requisite knowledge) In the civil context it's only a burden of proof of mere probability. A lot easier to establish versus beyond a reasonable doubt. Pre-litigation interviews of a few of the employees who left after a few weeks or a couple of months after they started working there could demonstrate the requisite knowledge of "enough" facts. And then there is depositions after filing suit, and what could be established there.

A suit against some of the employees was something I contemplated, but I luckily did not get stung with a claw back for my "pre-sell wine converted to in stock wines" received within 90 days of the bankruptcy filing. I am throwing this out there as I wondered if anyone was thinking what I was thinking, and got stung in the clawback and had a reason to seek to recover money against someone other than John Fox himself. There might be some judgments out there.
That statement may create clawback exposure.
WineHunter.

ChristopherSK
Posts: 129
Joined: June 8th, 2018, 8:49 am
Location: Philly area most of the time

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7026 Post by ChristopherSK »

I was thankfully under the needed amount which is why they could not seek clawback. (BTW, see my edit addition. There very well might be some poetic justice out there, but we are not aware of it. It's possible that someone initiated suit against an employee or two in jurisdictions other than California, alleging that the employee opened themselves up to jurisdiction in other states based upon communications via telephone and email and shipped deliveries with individuals in which the employee knew were out of state. There could be judgments in New York, Illinois, etc.)
Chri$toph3r S K0y$te

EricG
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 690
Joined: January 25th, 2010, 10:36 pm

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7027 Post by EricG »

So....bets on whether John Fox is relased before the bankruptcy is settled?

"This notice is to inform you that JOHN FOX has been approved for placement in a Community Corrections Center (CCC), otherwise known as a halfway house, and will transfer from this institution on August 25, 2020. After the transfer, the inmate will be located at Riverside Work Release in N. Prince George, Virginia.

In addition to the information provided regarding this offender's CCC transfer, the following information is relevant to the inmate's eventual release. The inmate is scheduled to release on February 22, 2021."
G = G_e_r_b_e_r

User avatar
amjohnstone
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 226
Joined: October 28th, 2013, 9:44 am
Location: Chicago, Illinois

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7028 Post by amjohnstone »

The bankruptcy is still pending. In fact, I amended my claim today. Like most customers who paid for but not receive wine, I did not assert that my claim was entitled to priority. It seems that was a mistake. I should have asserted that my claim was entitled to priority under Section 507(a) because it was comprised of less than $3,025 in deposits toward purchase of property for household use. In fact, because only 13% of the consumer customers asserted priority, the Trustee moved last June that most customer claims should be automatically reclassified as priority claims under Section 507(a) to avoid unfairly penalizing the consumer customers like me who didn't check that box on the claim form, but the bankruptcy court denied that motion. But since it's not too late, I amended my claim. If you filed a claim but didn't assert priority, you may want to do the same.
Andrew Johnstone

User avatar
John Morris
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 18599
Joined: June 21st, 2009, 2:09 pm
Location: Gotham
Has thanked: 22 times
Been thanked: 59 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7029 Post by John Morris »

ChristopherSK wrote: August 30th, 2019, 7:40 am Agreed, those lawyers gotta be paid. How could "they" the employees know or not know about the falsity? (Note, I am not suggesting who if any had requisite knowledge) In the civil context it's only a burden of proof of mere probability. A lot easier to establish versus beyond a reasonable doubt. Pre-litigation interviews of a few of the employees who left after a few weeks or a couple of months after they started working there could demonstrate the requisite knowledge of "enough" facts. And then there is depositions after filing suit, and what could be established there.

A suit against some of the employees was something I contemplated, but I luckily did not get stung with a claw back for my "pre-sell wine converted to in stock wines" received within 90 days of the bankruptcy filing. I am throwing this out there as I wondered if anyone was thinking what I was thinking, and got stung in the clawback and had a reason to seek to recover money against someone other than John Fox himself. There might be some judgments out there. (Edit addition. Meaning, there might be some poetic justice, but we are not aware of it.)
I don't recall anything suggesting that anyone else there really was aware of the fraud, though they obviously realized things were utterly messed up. If you saw the pictures of Fox at his desk, with stacks of papers, it would have been easy to think he was just spread too thin and was disorganized.

I don't even recall anyone claiming that Hector, Fox's partner, was aware, and I don't recall Hector being sued.

To state a claim, you'd have to allege misrepresentations made by employees that they knew were false or which they disregarded the truth of. If they honestly trusted and believed Fox (pretty plausible to me), you've got a problem.

In any event, it would be an utter waste of time unless you aim is simply to inflict pain on underlings. I can't imagine that employees in shipping or fulfillment have any assets to speak of, and I can't imagine any were on commission since PC was a web-driven business. It was the prices that sold the wine. No one needed a sales pitch. So Fox had no need to pay commissions.
Not my circus, not my monkeys.

User avatar
amjohnstone
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 226
Joined: October 28th, 2013, 9:44 am
Location: Chicago, Illinois

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7030 Post by amjohnstone »

The Trustee filed its first interim report on May 5. Priority claims asserted for consumer deposits (e.g., wine) will be paid at 30%, which is better than I expected when this whole mess began. But the Trustee is retaining $4,561,649.42 for "continued litigation for avoidance actions, the recovery of additional assets and future distribution to creditors." (emphasis added). So, there's a chance creditors, priority and otherwise, will recover still more down the road.
Andrew Johnstone

User avatar
Dale Bowers
Monopole Crü
Monopole Crü
Posts: 4092
Joined: April 27th, 2010, 9:44 pm
Location: Boulder, Colorado
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 9 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7031 Post by Dale Bowers »

amjohnstone wrote: May 7th, 2020, 8:40 am The Trustee filed its first interim report on May 5. Priority claims asserted for consumer deposits (e.g., wine) will be paid at 30%, which is better than I expected when this whole mess began. But the Trustee is retaining $4,561,649.42 for "continued litigation for avoidance actions, the recovery of additional assets and future distribution to creditors." (emphasis added). So, there's a chance creditors, priority and otherwise, will recover still more down the road.
As I read it, $41+Million in undelivered wine held by non secure creditors (most of us) get ZERO!
Cheers!

User avatar
dsimmons
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 874
Joined: January 7th, 2017, 11:51 am
Location: Anchorage, AK and Rockport, TX
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7032 Post by dsimmons »

Did anyone else receive a offer to purchase your Bankruptcy claim? I had pretty much written off any chance of recovering my losses but this offer is to purchase the claim for about 11% of what I lost. Does this sound legit?
D o n

User avatar
John S
Posts: 1093
Joined: May 29th, 2009, 11:45 am
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7033 Post by John S »

I can't comment on your specific offer but validated bankruptcy claims get bought and sold every day.
John Sprow

AAgrawal
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 2077
Joined: May 8th, 2010, 7:22 pm
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 13 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7034 Post by AAgrawal »

A silly question from a non-lawyer who hasn't heard anything yet from the bankruptcy trustee:
If my undelivered wine was more than $3k, can I amend my claim to a priority claim for a portion of it (the portion under $3k)?
A s h i s h A g r a w a l

User avatar
alan weinberg
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 13822
Joined: April 25th, 2009, 1:23 pm
Has thanked: 44 times
Been thanked: 63 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7035 Post by alan weinberg »

Dale Bowers wrote: May 7th, 2020, 9:30 am
amjohnstone wrote: May 7th, 2020, 8:40 am The Trustee filed its first interim report on May 5. Priority claims asserted for consumer deposits (e.g., wine) will be paid at 30%, which is better than I expected when this whole mess began. But the Trustee is retaining $4,561,649.42 for "continued litigation for avoidance actions, the recovery of additional assets and future distribution to creditors." (emphasis added). So, there's a chance creditors, priority and otherwise, will recover still more down the road.
As I read it, $41+Million in undelivered wine held by non secure creditors (most of us) get ZERO!
as soon as John Fox is released he’ll start working to pay us all back. Don’t worry.

User avatar
Don Cornwell
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 1729
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 1:24 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Been thanked: 12 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7036 Post by Don Cornwell »

dsimmons wrote: May 27th, 2020, 12:49 pm Did anyone else receive a offer to purchase your Bankruptcy claim? I had pretty much written off any chance of recovering my losses but this offer is to purchase the claim for about 11% of what I lost. Does this sound legit?
I have already notified Mr. Simmons that THE OFFERS CURRENTLY BEING MADE TO PURCHASE CERTAIN PREMIER CRU BANKRUPTCY CLAIMS ARE A COMPLETE SCAM. DO NOT ACCEPT THEM.. Mr. Simmons is one of the people on the list in the Trustee's Interim Report who will receive a priority payment. The Trustee's report, which was filed on May 6, 2020, proposes to make $176,957.99 in payments for priority claims. The payments are being made to people with wage claims and to creditors who submitted priority claims for consumer deposits of less than $3,000. The proposed distributions to the latter group range between small amounts and $832.50 per claimant (30% of the approved claims amounts).

Since the Trustee's motion contains a claims docket which shows the name and address of each person who will receive the proposed distributions, and the amount of the proposed payment, the piece of shit that wrote to Mr. Simmons (and undoubtedly everyone else who is supposed to receive a payment) offered to purchase the bankruptcy claim for 11 cents on the dollar that will otherwise be paid out at thirty cents on the dollar. This jerk is trying to take advantage of the fact that Mr. Simmons and the other creditors on the list don't know about the pending distributions from the bankruptcy estate. The creditors are not generally informed of pending motions and reports unless they signed up for the "special notice" list.

Is the attempt to capitalize on the creditors' lack of knowledge unethical? Absolutely. Despicable? Incredibly so. But in most states it is likely legal because it is not considered fraud for a complete stranger to withhold or fail to disclose material facts known only to that person (with some limited exceptions). The law prohibits affirmative misrepresentations of fact but except where there is a preexisting relationship or fiduciary duty does not generally prohibit remaining silent.
Last edited by Don Cornwell on May 27th, 2020, 11:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Don Cornwell
Oxidized Burgs Wiki
http://www.gdeschamps.net/wiki/doku.php?id=start

User avatar
Don Cornwell
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 1729
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 1:24 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Been thanked: 12 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7037 Post by Don Cornwell »

John S wrote: May 27th, 2020, 2:11 pm I can't comment on your specific offer but validated bankruptcy claims get bought and sold every day.
True but the whole business is [bullshit.gif] It attempts to prey on people without complete knowledge.
Don Cornwell
Oxidized Burgs Wiki
http://www.gdeschamps.net/wiki/doku.php?id=start

User avatar
John S
Posts: 1093
Joined: May 29th, 2009, 11:45 am
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7038 Post by John S »

Well, I would not say all Bankruptcy claim trading is BS but certainly there are scoundrels who fish in the small retail side of things. The market is fairly opaque and the only one I was ever involved with was the huge number of Lehman BK claims. Those were large claims and the market for them was actually fairly straightforward. What you describe above is certainly preying on the less informed and generally any offer like this to a small holder is going to be a ripoff preying on folks who view akin to found money. Thanks for providing more info to anyone who may have received a similar offer.
John Sprow

User avatar
dsimmons
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 874
Joined: January 7th, 2017, 11:51 am
Location: Anchorage, AK and Rockport, TX
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7039 Post by dsimmons »

Don Cornwell wrote: May 27th, 2020, 11:19 pm
dsimmons wrote: May 27th, 2020, 12:49 pm Did anyone else receive a offer to purchase your Bankruptcy claim? I had pretty much written off any chance of recovering my losses but this offer is to purchase the claim for about 11% of what I lost. Does this sound legit?
I have already notified Mr. Simmons that THE OFFERS CURRENTLY BEING MADE TO PURCHASE CERTAIN PREMIER CRU BANKRUPTCY CLAIMS ARE A COMPLETE SCAM. DO NOT ACCEPT THEM.. Mr. Simmons is one of the people on the list in the Trustee's Interim Report who will receive a priority payment. The Trustee's report, which was filed on May 6, 2020, proposes to make $176,957.99 in payments for priority claims. The payments are being made to people with wage claims and to creditors who submitted priority claims for consumer deposits of less than $3,000. The proposed distributions to the latter group range between small amounts and $832.50 per claimant (30% of the approved claims amounts).

Since the Trustee's motion contains a claims docket which shows the name and address of each person who will receive the proposed distributions, and the amount of the proposed payment, the piece of shit that wrote to Mr. Simmons (and undoubtedly everyone else who is supposed to receive a payment) offered to purchase the bankruptcy claim for 11 cents on the dollar that will otherwise be paid out at thirty cents on the dollar. This jerk is trying to take advantage of the fact that Mr. Simmons and the other creditors on the list don't know about the pending distributions from the bankruptcy estate. The creditors are not generally informed of pending motions and reports unless they signed up for the "special notice" list.

Is the attempt to capitalize on the creditors' lack of knowledge unethical? Absolutely. Despicable? Incredibly so. But in most states it is likely legal because it is not considered fraud for a complete stranger to withhold or fail to disclose material facts known only to that person (with some limited exceptions). The law prohibits affirmative misrepresentations of fact but except where there is a preexisting relationship or fiduciary duty does not generally prohibit remaining silent.


Thank you Don for the informed insight. I am certain that those of us who have not tracked the case as you have appreciate the warning. [cheers.gif]
D o n

User avatar
Al Osterheld
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 7654
Joined: March 15th, 2009, 5:47 am
Location: SF Bay
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 25 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7040 Post by Al Osterheld »

I didn't know you were a priority creditor, but thought you might be when you received the offer. The two posts in the thread just before yours indicated the 30% payoff for the priority claims like yours.

-Al

User avatar
Don Cornwell
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 1729
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 1:24 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Been thanked: 12 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7041 Post by Don Cornwell »

dsimmons wrote: May 28th, 2020, 11:21 am
Don Cornwell wrote: May 27th, 2020, 11:19 pm
dsimmons wrote: May 27th, 2020, 12:49 pm Did anyone else receive a offer to purchase your Bankruptcy claim? I had pretty much written off any chance of recovering my losses but this offer is to purchase the claim for about 11% of what I lost. Does this sound legit?
I have already notified Mr. Simmons that THE OFFERS CURRENTLY BEING MADE TO PURCHASE CERTAIN PREMIER CRU BANKRUPTCY CLAIMS ARE A COMPLETE SCAM. DO NOT ACCEPT THEM.. Mr. Simmons is one of the people on the list in the Trustee's Interim Report who will receive a priority payment. The Trustee's report, which was filed on May 6, 2020, proposes to make $176,957.99 in payments for priority claims. The payments are being made to people with wage claims and to creditors who submitted priority claims for consumer deposits of less than $3,000. The proposed distributions to the latter group range between small amounts and $832.50 per claimant (30% of the approved claims amounts).

Since the Trustee's motion contains a claims docket which shows the name and address of each person who will receive the proposed distributions, and the amount of the proposed payment, the piece of shit that wrote to Mr. Simmons (and undoubtedly everyone else who is supposed to receive a payment) offered to purchase the bankruptcy claim for 11 cents on the dollar that will otherwise be paid out at thirty cents on the dollar. This jerk is trying to take advantage of the fact that Mr. Simmons and the other creditors on the list don't know about the pending distributions from the bankruptcy estate. The creditors are not generally informed of pending motions and reports unless they signed up for the "special notice" list.

Is the attempt to capitalize on the creditors' lack of knowledge unethical? Absolutely. Despicable? Incredibly so. But in most states it is likely legal because it is not considered fraud for a complete stranger to withhold or fail to disclose material facts known only to that person (with some limited exceptions). The law prohibits affirmative misrepresentations of fact but except where there is a preexisting relationship or fiduciary duty does not generally prohibit remaining silent.


Thank you Don for the informed insight. I am certain that those of us who have not tracked the case as you have appreciate the warning. [cheers.gif]
Mr. Simmons was kind enough to forward me the written materials he received. The scam here is being perpetrated by Dilks & Knopick LLC, located at 35308 SE Center Street, Snoqualmie, WA 98065. Their website claims that they specialize in the collection of unclaimed funds. They assert on their website that they have been in this business for 20 years and that they have had no complaints. Well, if that was true (which I doubt), it is not true anymore. I should also point out that the offer to purchase the claim was for $416.25, or one half of the amount of the proposed distribution to Mr. Simmons.

I have notified counsel for the Bankruptcy Trustee about what is going on.
Last edited by Don Cornwell on May 28th, 2020, 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Don Cornwell
Oxidized Burgs Wiki
http://www.gdeschamps.net/wiki/doku.php?id=start

patrick c albright
BerserkerBusiness
BerserkerBusiness
Posts: 711
Joined: July 26th, 2009, 9:53 am
Location: bend/napa
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7042 Post by patrick c albright »

Don,
Amazing that this is still going around in circles.

Was there a final decision from the bankruptcy court in regards to the clawbacks?

Patrick
ITB

User avatar
Don Cornwell
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 1729
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 1:24 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Been thanked: 12 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7043 Post by Don Cornwell »

patrick c albright wrote: May 28th, 2020, 3:09 pm Don,
Amazing that this is still going around in circles.

Was there a final decision from the bankruptcy court in regards to the clawbacks?

Patrick
Those cases are adjudicated or settled individually and some of them are still open. Was yours resolved?
Don Cornwell
Oxidized Burgs Wiki
http://www.gdeschamps.net/wiki/doku.php?id=start

patrick c albright
BerserkerBusiness
BerserkerBusiness
Posts: 711
Joined: July 26th, 2009, 9:53 am
Location: bend/napa
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7044 Post by patrick c albright »

Yes, I settled two years ago.
ITB

User avatar
Ken Kailin
Posts: 117
Joined: May 4th, 2010, 7:19 am
Location: Northbrook, IL

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7045 Post by Ken Kailin »

Here we go again?

I got a call from a company called Argo asking me if I was willing to sell my claim for less than 5 cents on the dollar. They would pay me immediately.

Curious if others getting similar offers recently and if there have been any updates on the settlement over the past year? I understand COVID impact must be big, but wondering if settlement is closer given the vultures beginning to swarm again?

User avatar
Don Cornwell
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 1729
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 1:24 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Been thanked: 12 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7046 Post by Don Cornwell »

Ken Kailin wrote: February 3rd, 2021, 10:15 am Here we go again?

I got a call from a company called Argo asking me if I was willing to sell my claim for less than 5 cents on the dollar. They would pay me immediately.

Curious if others getting similar offers recently and if there have been any updates on the settlement over the past year? I understand COVID impact must be big, but wondering if settlement is closer given the vultures beginning to swarm again?
While I have not checked the docket, I am virtually positive from prior experience that this means that you are on a list filed by the Trustee that shows you will be receiving a payment of some sort soon. The rip off artists that offer you pennies on the dollar only surface here once the Trustee publishes a list of proposed payments.

NO ONE SHOULD BE ACCEPTING THOSE PAYMENT OFFERS.
Don Cornwell
Oxidized Burgs Wiki
http://www.gdeschamps.net/wiki/doku.php?id=start

User avatar
Victor Hong
Posts: 20374
Joined: May 30th, 2009, 1:34 pm
Location: Banana Republic of ‘Merica
Been thanked: 24 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7047 Post by Victor Hong »

Don Cornwell wrote: February 3rd, 2021, 10:57 am
Ken Kailin wrote: February 3rd, 2021, 10:15 am Here we go again?

I got a call from a company called Argo asking me if I was willing to sell my claim for less than 5 cents on the dollar. They would pay me immediately.

Curious if others getting similar offers recently and if there have been any updates on the settlement over the past year? I understand COVID impact must be big, but wondering if settlement is closer given the vultures beginning to swarm again?
While I have not checked the docket, I am virtually positive from prior experience that this means that you are on a list filed by the Trustee that shows you will be receiving a payment of some sort soon. The rip off artists that offer you pennies on the dollar only surface here once the Trustee publishes a list of proposed payments.

NO ONE SHOULD BE ACCEPTING THOSE PAYMENT OFFERS.
Ask if Argo will sell claims which IT owns. [wow.gif]
Last edited by Victor Hong on February 3rd, 2021, 2:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
WineHunter.

User avatar
Tom K.
BerserkerBusiness
BerserkerBusiness
Posts: 412
Joined: October 13th, 2011, 7:11 pm
Location: Cary, NC
Contact:

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7048 Post by Tom K. »

Anyone know how to update the recipient contact details of a filed claim? I moved and have never had to deal with anything like this before.
Tom Kobylarz
Wine Solutions

User avatar
Don Cornwell
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 1729
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 1:24 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Been thanked: 12 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7049 Post by Don Cornwell »

Tom K. wrote: February 3rd, 2021, 1:50 pm Anyone know how to update the recipient contact details of a filed claim? I moved and have never had to deal with anything like this before.
Tom:

I don't know if your claim was mailed or filed on line. If you have a Pacer account, then you can probably modify the details yourself. Otherwise you would need to contact the Bankruptcy Trustee's office, to whom you likely submitted the original claim.
Don Cornwell
Oxidized Burgs Wiki
http://www.gdeschamps.net/wiki/doku.php?id=start

ybarselah
Posts: 6510
Joined: July 15th, 2009, 2:29 pm
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 22 times

Re: Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

#7050 Post by ybarselah »

still the GOAT thread in the wine world. period. whenever I'm down, i stroll down memory lane to the early pages here and just bask in the glow of certitude. it's stupendous. i highly recommend it. to me, it's becoming something akin to a beloved book where you highlight passages and re-read them. what is the wine equivalent of the library of congress?
Yaacov (ITB)

Post Reply

Return to “Wine Talk”