Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

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#1 Post by **Chris Blum** » February 6th, 2012, 6:33 am

Weve all come to accept it as an amusing little minor frustration with a super reliable store.

My question is simply why? Why do they take 6 months to a year longer than every other store? What is different about their importer or their purchasing schedule?

Edit: fixed spelling errors due to fat fingers and ipad

Neal.Mollen · #2 Post by **Neal.Mollen** » February 6th, 2012, 6:37 am

Oh good. Haven't discussed this in ages.

Bill Bøykin · #3 Post by **Bill Bøykin** » February 6th, 2012, 6:43 am

Chris Blum wrote:

My question is simply why?
What is different about their importer or their purcashing schedule?

Because they're smarter than all the other stores.
They get to play with your money for much,much longer...........and their is no surfeit of customers to buy into this scheme.

6 months,a year you say?
Hah,that's a good one.......

Andrew L. · #4 Post by **Andrew L.** » February 6th, 2012, 6:46 am

Bill Bøykin · #5 Post by **Bill Bøykin** » February 6th, 2012, 7:04 am

Ouch.
Stay away from this,Eric!

Carl Steefel · #6 Post by **Carl Steefel** » February 6th, 2012, 7:29 am

Chris Blum wrote:Weve all come to accept it as an amusing little minor frustration with a super reliable store.

My question is simply why? Why do they take 6 moths to a year longer than every other store? What is different about their importer or their purcashing schedule?

They are the importer. They assemble wines as far as I know in their Beaune warehouse from deliveries across Europe. On the gray market, normally, but perhaps not exclusively? Then they pack it up and ship it. The slow cases seem to be where the gray market guys do not ship it, e.g., I am still waiting for 2004 Clerico Barolo. I don't think that they have these bottles in their Beaune warehouse, otherwise they would ship it.

Brian G r a f s t r o m · #7 Post by **Brian G r a f s t r o m** » February 6th, 2012, 7:34 am

Gray market. Ponzi.

Take your pick.

SteveC · #8 Post by **SteveC** » February 6th, 2012, 7:37 am

Do folks think they won't deliver in the end?

Bill Bøykin · #9 Post by **Bill Bøykin** » February 6th, 2012, 7:39 am

SteveC wrote:Do folks think they won't deliver in the end?

......and ...............they're off!

Neal.Mollen · #10 Post by **Neal.Mollen** » February 6th, 2012, 7:40 am

Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote:Gray market. Ponzi.

Take your pick.

Sigh.

K&L

Winex

Calvert Woodley

McArthurs

All ponzi schemes apparently.

Andrew L. · #11 Post by **Andrew L.** » February 6th, 2012, 7:42 am

Just take a look on cellartracker at the pending deliveries by store. They outnumber every other store by a good margin, and I'd anticipate that a good chunk of "Unknown" pending deliveries are actually Premier Cru. Add in the people that don't use cellartracker, and I bet the dollar value of their undelivered product is enormous.

Andrew L. · #12 Post by **Andrew L.** » February 6th, 2012, 7:43 am

Neal.Mollen wrote:
Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote:Gray market. Ponzi.

Take your pick.
Sigh.

K&L

Winex

Calvert Woodley

McArthurs

All ponzi schemes apparently.

Except their customers aren't waiting on orders from 5-6 years ago...

Neal.Mollen · #13 Post by **Neal.Mollen** » February 6th, 2012, 7:55 am

You did read Brian's post, didn't you?

SteveC · #14 Post by **SteveC** » February 6th, 2012, 7:57 am

Neal.Mollen wrote:You did read Brian's post, didn't you?

Neal, would you buy from them?

#15 Post by **Chris Blum** » February 6th, 2012, 8:15 am

Carl Steefel wrote:
Chris Blum wrote:Weve all come to accept it as an amusing little minor frustration with a super reliable store.

My question is simply why? Why do they take 6 moths to a year longer than every other store? What is different about their importer or their purcashing schedule?
They are the importer. They assemble wines as far as I know in their Beaune warehouse from deliveries across Europe. On the gray market, normally, but perhaps not exclusively? Then they pack it up and ship it. The slow cases seem to be where the gray market guys do not ship it, e.g., I am still waiting for 2004 Clerico Barolo. I don't think that they have these bottles in their Beaune warehouse, otherwise they would ship it.

Thank you. This is what I was interested in. I should have explained I was after the actual mechanics of how their system differs. I was trying carefully at the outset to not start another bashing thread. (Apologies to Neal and others who think this has been talked to death)

Brian G r a f s t r o m · #16 Post by **Brian G r a f s t r o m** » February 6th, 2012, 9:02 am

Neal.Mollen wrote:You did read Brian's post, didn't you?

Neal,

YES, my post was CONJECTURE --- possibly even RIDICULOUS CONJECTURE. Of course, PC reaps what it sows with its RIDICULOUS business model.

I suppose, to be fair, the *real* answer to the original question is: "Because people keep ordering from them." In other words, consumers allow it.

Are you, Neal, willing to make any similar concession on this topic, or are you going to defend PC to your death?

Josh Beck · #17 Post by **Josh Beck** » February 6th, 2012, 9:22 am

I'm not particularly worried about PC suddenly disappearing with my undelivered wines. If I do, it's not a tremendous amount of money and I'll be the fool. In the meanwhile they've delivered every bottle I've ordered within a time frame that does not bother me, at great prices, with great customer service, making me a happy customer. Perhaps I'm a willing participant in a ponzi scheme, if so, I'm a satisfied participant as well.

Neal.Mollen · #18 Post by **Neal.Mollen** » February 6th, 2012, 9:23 am

Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote:
Neal.Mollen wrote:You did read Brian's post, didn't you?
Neal,

YES, my post was CONJECTURE --- possibly even RIDICULOUS CONJECTURE. Of course, PC reaps what it sows with its RIDICULOUS business model.

I suppose, to be fair, the *real* answer to the original question is: "Because people keep ordering from them." In other words, consumers allow it.

Are you, Neal, willing to make any similar concession on this topic, or are you going to defend PC to your death?

Where did I defend them? Your "conjecture" is that they are engaged in a massive fraud. Committing felonies. That and Andrew's really unconscionable use of Madoff's picture. Nice.

Andrew L. · #19 Post by **Andrew L.** » February 6th, 2012, 9:41 am

I posted Madoff's photo in jest. I honestly have no idea what the true nature of the delays is, but you have to admit that the number of outstanding deliveries, combined with the period of time of which they have been outstanding is quite scary. Do you think they are sitting on giant pile of cash?

Andrew Gold · #20 Post by **Andrew Gold** » February 6th, 2012, 9:44 am

It never fails the anger questions about Premier Cru seem to stir up, though I can't fathom why at this point. Those of you so happy to toss out Ponzi, Madoff and the life, are you buying things from Premier Cru?

Are you under the impression that your responses are going to sway folks further one direction or another regarding premier cru? Really? It seems similar to folks posting in threads about wineries they would never remotely consider purchasing, just why...

I for one do buy from Premier Cru, and find the original question interesting. I've heard conjecture of some of the random places they're sourcing from, and find it interesting. I have no idea what would represent the long delay, clearly it seems there are times they're offering wines they don't know they have "stock" on, then finding them. Given a very high success rate of eventually finding those wines, my hat goes off to them.

#21 Post by **Chris Blum** » February 6th, 2012, 10:14 am

Andrew Gold wrote:.... clearly it seems there are times they're offering wines they don't know they have "stock" on, then finding them. Given a very high success rate of eventually finding those wines, my hat goes off to them.

But surely they must have contracts or at least options to buy these wines at a particular price. Otherwise they are simply gambling that they can make money on some potential spread.

#22 Post by **Howard Cooper** » February 6th, 2012, 10:32 am

Neal.Mollen wrote:
Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote:Gray market. Ponzi.

Take your pick.
Sigh.

K&L

Winex

Calvert Woodley

McArthurs

All ponzi schemes apparently.

These stores (at least Calvert Woodley and MacArthurs) buy the wine before they sell it. That is not a ponzi scheme or anything like this. Even when CW got into trouble with not being able to deliver on 1990 Bordeaux, it was not because they were gambling. It was because their source went bankrupt.

The allegations (I have no idea whether they are true or not) is that PC sells wines it has not yet purchased. I don't think that is a ponzi scheme either unless they are using my money to buy wine for other people. I do think it is riskier because if they guess wrong they could go out of business (depending on how big their wrong guess is). I have gotten delivered everything I have ordered from them but had very long delivery times on some prearrival wines. So, I now will only buy wines from them that are in stock, to reduce risk.

Rick Gregory · #23 Post by **Rick Gregory** » February 6th, 2012, 10:35 am

It's amazing how fast everyone here veered off from the actual question into the same old issues...

Andrew L. · #24 Post by **Andrew L.** » February 6th, 2012, 10:42 am

Andrew Gold wrote:It never fails the anger questions about Premier Cru seem to stir up, though I can't fathom why at this point. Those of you so happy to toss out Ponzi, Madoff and the life, are you buying things from Premier Cru?

Are you under the impression that your responses are going to sway folks further one direction or another regarding premier cru? Really? It seems similar to folks posting in threads about wineries they would never remotely consider purchasing, just why...

I for one do buy from Premier Cru, and find the original question interesting. I've heard conjecture of some of the random places they're sourcing from, and find it interesting. I have no idea what would represent the long delay, clearly it seems there are times they're offering wines they don't know they have "stock" on, then finding them. Given a very high success rate of eventually finding those wines, my hat goes off to them.

I personally don't care where people choose to shop. Each individual is open to take on whatever level of risk they are comfortable with. For myself, I'd rather pay a slight premium to get my wine on time and to have some idea of where it has been. Even if choose not to shop with Premier Cru, I should be able to participate in a discussion of their practices, which seem to be unlike any other retailer.

#25 Post by **Michae1 P0wers** » February 6th, 2012, 10:58 am

Rick, in a way they didn't veer off of the question, they are suggesting that nefarious business models are the reason for the delay. That is how some appear to see this situation. It seems to me that they probably have some rather unique fulfillment and contractual arrangements with sources in Europe and they may sometimes simply not come through requiring an attempt to cover, and this causes occasional delays. Add to this the fact that they import themselves and it may simply take them longer to move the wines into their warehouse and out.

As for the same old issues...

I for one have had good luck with PC, and don't mind waiting for wines I wouldn't be drinking now anyway. The only concern is that the longer you wait the more chance there is that improper storage has occurred at some point, presumably before getting to their warehouse.

I also don't really buy the idea that they offer a price before they buy, because that would make for some foolish bets. I would assume, as mentioned above, that they at least have some form of option to guarantee a price. It seems that the idea being suggested is that they take money, invest it in merchandise or otherwise, only then making the purchase of the items for which they initially received those funds. But that seems to assume that they can either buy the wine for less later (presumably difficult or impossible in most circumstances) or else that the money they have made in the interem through other application of those funds is sufficient to cover any loss incurred by waiting. I just can't see that being a very successful model. It seems like it would, at the very least, fail quite often. And maybe it does but I haven't seen it. There are certainly cases here of wine never delivered or only delivered after unacceptably long waits. But it doesn't seem to happen as much as I would expect it to in a system like that described above. For my part, even if that is the system, I can't complain because my results have been positive. Two bottles cancelled out of hundreds. Prices tend to be the best by a lot.

In the instance of undelivered wine, I would assume that PC has an obligation to deliver. Standard legal practices dictate that they will have to cover contractual damages if they can't deliver in some set period of time. Absent an express provision granting them extra time to deliver it would probably be a "reasonable" amount of time. If they fail to meet that delivery time then there should be an applicable damage. Of couse such hypotheticals do little to actually help the consumer in the average wine sales transaction. Its not like many people will really seek a legal remedy for the amounts of money that are normally at play here.

PC's normal policy is to exact a penalty on funds returned, and I would question the legality of that policy based on what I've discussed above. They don't penalize on store credit though, and for most wine buyers here that is probably a sufficient alternative, rather than arguing the propriety of a "reshelving" fee. The only time any of this becomes an issue is if you really wanted the wine and would have to pay more to get it elsewhere or it can't be found at all. It seems that they would need to cover the difference in that instance, but I suspect that wouldn't happen too easily.

Markus S · #26 Post by **Markus S** » February 6th, 2012, 11:07 am

Howard Cooper wrote:.... Even when CW got into trouble with not being able to deliver on 1990 Bordeaux, it was not because they were gambling. It was because their source went bankrupt.

Actually, it was a container ship that split in half at sea which CW had the unfortunate luck of having the majority of their Bordeaux on it in containers that sank to the bottom of the sea. But they made good on every order.

Brian G r a f s t r o m · #27 Post by **Brian G r a f s t r o m** » February 6th, 2012, 11:08 am

Neal.Mollen wrote:
Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote:
Neal.Mollen wrote:You did read Brian's post, didn't you?
Neal,

YES, my post was CONJECTURE --- possibly even RIDICULOUS CONJECTURE. Of course, PC reaps what it sows with its RIDICULOUS business model.

I suppose, to be fair, the *real* answer to the original question is: "Because people keep ordering from them." In other words, consumers allow it.

Are you, Neal, willing to make any similar concession on this topic, or are you going to defend PC to your death?
Where did I defend them? Your "conjecture" is that they are engaged in a massive fraud. Committing felonies. That and Andrew's really unconscionable use of Madoff's picture. Nice.

So, "No." is your answer, then. ok.

Rick Gregory · #28 Post by **Rick Gregory** » February 6th, 2012, 11:12 am

Michael Powers wrote:Rick, in a way they didn't veer off of the question, they are suggesting that nefarious business models are the reason for the delay. That is how some appear to see this situation. It seems to me that they probably have some rather unique fulfillment and contractual arrangements with sources in Europe and they may sometimes simply not come through requiring an attempt to cover, and this causes occasional delays. Add to this the fact that they import themselves and it may simply take them longer to move the wines into their warehouse and out.

Yeah, but rumor isn't the same as knowledge. There are two possible reasons PC takes so long that I can see...

One, their importation business and practices around it. They have sources for the wines before they offer them for sale, but these sources impose a delay for whatever reason.

Two, they're advertising wines for sale that they don't have commitments for but believe that they can find on the European market.

But face it, the honest answer from any of US is "we don't know." People were, very logically, concerned in the 2008-9 timeframe because the economy was so uncertain. But aside from that the answer's always been that the deliver the wines in good shape except in rare events but that you might end up waiting for a very long time for some bottles.

Personally, I don't buy from PC simply because I don't want to deal with the hassle of tracking what's outstanding or worrying (however needlessly) about where a wine's been in between the time it was released and the time I would get it. Others make different choices. But the question is really not answerable and instead of speculating, people should just admit that.

Markus S · #29 Post by **Markus S** » February 6th, 2012, 11:13 am

Andrew L. wrote:... Do you think they are sitting on giant pile of cash?

Like MF Global??

The wait is significantly longer than 6-12 months longer than traditional sources. You would think a 2007 Fevre Chablis could be sourced somewhere by now. The best way to think of PC is a little like offsite storage: you pay them the money, they store your wine.

Jonathan Loesberg · #30 Post by **Jonathan Loesberg** » February 6th, 2012, 11:28 am

Markus S wrote:
Howard Cooper wrote:.... Even when CW got into trouble with not being able to deliver on 1990 Bordeaux, it was not because they were gambling. It was because their source went bankrupt.
Actually, it was a container ship that split in half at sea which CW had the unfortunate luck of having the majority of their Bordeaux on it in containers that sank to the bottom of the sea. But they made good on every order.

The ship breaking up was a different issue. I don't remember it affecting CW, though I could be wrong about that. Howard's explanation for the 1990 Bordeaux problem was the one the owner offered to me and it also explained the period of about a year when their cut-out bin had astonishing deals. Because their source when bankrupt, they took position of its stock and liquidated it as a way of getting cash to cover what they owed. They've kept the marketing technique of the cut-out bin, but the deals have never been the same.

Neal.Mollen · #31 Post by **Neal.Mollen** » February 6th, 2012, 11:32 am

Rick Gregory wrote:the honest answer from any of US is "we don't know."

Since when has that been any reason for anyone here not to post? Accuse someone of running as fraud? Committing multiple felonies? Running a RICO enterprise? Why demand actual facts when baseless, fact-less, accusations are so very much more entertaining.

The very worst of this board comes out every time.

Andrew L. · #32 Post by **Andrew L.** » February 6th, 2012, 11:40 am

I think you are overreacting just a tad there, Neal. I don't think anyone has said that they think with absolute certainty that PC is engaging in fraudulent behaviour. No one here truly knows what goes on there, but the fact that people wait an extremely long time for the their wine, combined with their sometimes ridiculously low priced offerings do provide good reason for suspicion.

Rick Gregory · #33 Post by **Rick Gregory** » February 6th, 2012, 11:53 am

Neal.Mollen wrote:
Rick Gregory wrote:the honest answer from any of US is "we don't know."
Since when has that been any reason for anyone here not to post? Accuse someone of running as fraud? Committing multiple felonies? Running a RICO enterprise? Why demand actual facts when baseless, fact-less, accusations are so very much more entertaining.

The very worst of this board comes out every time.

Read the rest of my post. I said none of those things so don't quote me and then imply that I did.

Andrew L - it's over the line to accuse people of fraudulent behavior without either direct evidence or a VERY good set of circumstantial evidence. PC has a record of delivering - why some wines take so long is, simply, not known. The OP was asking if people knew (we don't) and for speculation on the mechanics (and damn few of us know enough about the Euro market and importing to be able to do that intelligently).

Brian G r a f s t r o m · #34 Post by **Brian G r a f s t r o m** » February 6th, 2012, 12:24 pm

Rick Gregory wrote:[...
But face it, the honest answer from any of US is "we don't know." ...

Exactly. and this is why, imo, any reasonable person reading the answers in this thread understands there's an implied "in my opinion" or "I think" directly before or after each answer herein given. Of course, not everyone is reasonable.

Rick Gregory · #35 Post by **Rick Gregory** » February 6th, 2012, 12:27 pm

Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote:
Rick Gregory wrote:[...
But face it, the honest answer from any of US is "we don't know." ...
Exactly. and this is why, imo, any reasonable person reading the answers in this thread understands there's an implied "in my opinion" or "I think" directly before or after each answer herein given. Of course, not everyone is reasonable.

Sure there is, but even with that qualification I think accusations of fraud are over the line. Changing "They're engaged in a ponzi scheme" to "I think they're engaged in a ponzi scheme" doesn't really soften the implications.

My point was simply that, aside from the couple of generic reasons I gave, NO ONE KNOWS. Instead of hitting Reply and pretending they do, people should have just skipped on. The OP isn't answerable except as a generic answer to a question like 'Why would it take more than a few months to get wine from Europe here especially when others get it here faster?"

I've imported small wuantities of wine via channels and one thing that people don't really get unless they've done that is that no one ships partial containers. For a large importer, this isn't an issue. For a smaller one that's assembling quantities over time you'll aggregate the wine in the EU and then ship full containers to save money. And THEN keep in mind that you don't want PC to ship your wine in, say, the summer. That means that April is likely the close of shipping season until October. If they miss the APril window that tacks on 6 months to the delivery time right there... unless all of you who care so much about your wine want it to cross the Atlantic and the continental US during summer.

Lewis Dawson · #36 Post by **Lewis Dawson** » February 6th, 2012, 12:31 pm

Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote:Gray market. Ponzi.

Take your pick.

That right there is one ignorant post, and offensive too.

Andrew L. · #37 Post by **Andrew L.** » February 6th, 2012, 12:32 pm

Rick, I never accused PC of fraudulent behaviour...I posted a photo in jest, which I disclosed, as PC always gets everyone riled up. I said explicitly that I don't know what goes on at PC. Is there anything untruthful about the following two statements that I made?

(1) Premier Cru pending deliveries on cellartracker far exceed any other retailer
(2) There are people out there waiting 5+ years for delivery of certain items

Other than that, all I've said is that I wouldn't personally shop there, and that the above two facts are quite scary, and somewhat suspicious behaviour, given their pricing and the business practices of other retail units offering similar services.

Rick Gregory · #38 Post by **Rick Gregory** » February 6th, 2012, 12:36 pm

"Rick, I never accused PC of fraudulent behaviour...the above two facts are quite scary, and somewhat suspicious behaviour"

Uh huh. No, you never directly accused them. You just implied it strongly with an inflammatory picture that had no context when you posted it and indirectly with the above verbiage. Yeah, you dodge the 'direct' accusation but indirectly? Yeah, you do accuse them of something shady.

Oh and... you're not the only person I was talking about.

Brian G r a f s t r o m · #39 Post by **Brian G r a f s t r o m** » February 6th, 2012, 12:37 pm

Lewis Dawson wrote:
Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote:Gray market. Ponzi.

Take your pick.
That right there is one ignorant post, and offensive too.

You're entitled to your opinion, just as I am entitled to mine.

Rick Gregory · #40 Post by **Rick Gregory** » February 6th, 2012, 12:38 pm

But Brian you're NOT entitled to throw around accusations of a ponzi scheme without the slightest shred of evidence.

Bill Bøykin · #41 Post by **Bill Bøykin** » February 6th, 2012, 12:41 pm

Rick Gregory wrote:"Rick, I never accused PC of fraudulent behaviour...the above two facts are quite scary, and somewhat suspicious behaviour"

Uh huh. No, you never directly accused them. You just implied it strongly with an inflammatory picture that had no context when you posted it and indirectly with the above verbiage. Yeah, you dodge the 'direct' accusation but indirectly? Yeah, you do accuse them of something shady.

Oh and... you're not the only person I was talking about.

[youtube][/youtube]

#42 Post by **Eric LeVine** » February 6th, 2012, 12:45 pm

BTW, I purchased 2003 Pegau Domaine du Capo back in 9/2004. I recall that PC offer created some hubbub at the time, as the wine wasn't yet bottled and Laurence wasn't even sure if she would make a Capo at that point. Still, it seemed worth a shot on pure speculation, and they did ultimately deliver.

So is that the incredibly rare exception (selling a wine before it is even clear if it will exist so NO way that a supplier could be lined up)?

Brian G r a f s t r o m · #43 Post by **Brian G r a f s t r o m** » February 6th, 2012, 12:47 pm

Rick Gregory wrote:
Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote:
Rick Gregory wrote:[...
But face it, the honest answer from any of US is "we don't know." ...
Exactly. and this is why, imo, any reasonable person reading the answers in this thread understands there's an implied "in my opinion" or "I think" directly before or after each answer herein given. Of course, not everyone is reasonable.
...

My point was simply that, aside from the couple of generic reasons I gave, NO ONE KNOWS. Instead of hitting Reply and pretending they do, people should have just skipped on. The OP isn't answerable except as a generic answer to a question like 'Why would it take more than a few months to get wine from Europe here especially when others get it here faster?"

I've imported small wuantities of wine via channels and one thing that people don't really get unless they've done that is that no one ships partial containers. For a large importer, this isn't an issue. For a smaller one that's assembling quantities over time you'll aggregate the wine in the EU and then ship full containers to save money. And THEN keep in mind that you don't want PC to ship your wine in, say, the summer. That means that April is likely the close of shipping season until October. If they miss the APril window that tacks on 6 months to the delivery time right there... unless all of you who care so much about your wine want it to cross the Atlantic and the continental US during summer.

I don't really disagree with anything you say here, Rick.

Fact: PC takes *a lot* longer than many other retailers to deliver on its futures.

Why is that??? AFAIK, PC has never given a straightforward answer to this question. IMO, those who've given their money to PC deserve an answer to this fair question. Why hasn't PC given such an answer? That so many of PC's very own customers are left wanting for this answer strikes me as *very* suspicious.

Was my post inflammatory? Absolutely. And, you know what --- replies, such as Neal's, to such posts actually *help* shed light on the issue(s)/problem(s) at hand -- namely, PC's unreasonably long delivery times and failure to communicate the reasons therefore. So, in light of that, to everybody who so-responded to my inflammatory post,

. I harbor no ill-will towards anyone who expressed such an opinion of my post.

Andrew L. · #44 Post by **Andrew L.** » February 6th, 2012, 12:48 pm

Rick Gregory wrote:"Rick, I never accused PC of fraudulent behaviour...the above two facts are quite scary, and somewhat suspicious behaviour"

Uh huh. No, you never directly accused them. You just implied it strongly with an inflammatory picture that had no context when you posted it and indirectly with the above verbiage. Yeah, you dodge the 'direct' accusation but indirectly? Yeah, you do accuse them of something shady.

Oh and... you're not the only person I was talking about.

Am I not allowed to joke on the internet anymore? I'm sure my posting a photo of Madoff for 3 hours without qualification has irreparably damaged Premier Cru's reputation. I'm looking for the eye rolling smiley here, but I can't find it.

As for my statement -- Are you going pretend that failing to deliver on pre-arrivals after 5 years is not suspicious, especially given that other retailers have delivered these products years ago?

Lewis Dawson · #45 Post by **Lewis Dawson** » February 6th, 2012, 1:08 pm

Eric LeVine wrote:BTW, I purchased 2003 Pegau Domaine du Capo back in 9/2004. I recall that PC offer created some hubbub at the time, as the wine wasn't yet bottled and Laurence wasn't even sure if she would make a Capo at that point. Still, it seemed worth a shot on pure speculation, and they did ultimately deliver.

So is that the incredibly rare exception (selling a wine before it is even clear if it will exist so NO way that a supplier could be lined up)?

Eric, I don't know the details of that wine, but I do believe, after many conversations with folks at PC over many years time, that PC sells wine only after they have bought it. So on that one wine, who is to say Laurence had not decided? Who is to say she had not confirmed an order with a broker in Switzerland or Belgium or somewhere else? Who is to say she had not confirmed the order, but maybe later reconsidered whether to bottle that separate cuvee?

It would be possible, but IMO really stupid, for John Fox to sit in his office and say... "Hey guys, let's dream up 2003 Capo for $xx per bottle, that is about what that wine might sell for, go get 'em guys."

There are instamces where PC's suppliers fail to come through, just as there are with every other direct importer and also with 3-tier channels. When that happens, PC works very hard to find the wine or otherwise satisfy the customer, in my experience.

Considering the amount of really hard-to-find wines that PC sells, I think their proportion of supply disruptions are not unreasonable, IMO.

#46 Post by **Eric LeVine** » February 6th, 2012, 1:16 pm

Lewis, at the time it created a hubbub on the Parker board, becasue it was confirmed via the biggest importer in the US, who had just discussed this with Laurence, that she was undecided. Maybe she was lying? Maybe her Dad had decided and she didn't realize? Who knows. And the wine is resting comfortably in my cellar, but I really recall this very clearly as I had also visited Pegau a few months earlier and asked Laurence the exact same question at the time (and she demurred).

Lewis Dawson wrote:
Eric LeVine wrote:BTW, I purchased 2003 Pegau Domaine du Capo back in 9/2004. I recall that PC offer created some hubbub at the time, as the wine wasn't yet bottled and Laurence wasn't even sure if she would make a Capo at that point. Still, it seemed worth a shot on pure speculation, and they did ultimately deliver.

So is that the incredibly rare exception (selling a wine before it is even clear if it will exist so NO way that a supplier could be lined up)?
Eric, I don't know the details of that wine, but I do believe, after many conversations with folks at PC over many years time, that PC sells wine only after they have bought it. So on that one wine, who is to say Laurence had not decided? Who is to say she had not confirmed an order with a broker in Switzerland or Belgium or somewhere else? Who is to say she had not confirmed the order, but maybe later reconsidered whether to bottle that separate cuvee?

It would be possible, but IMO really stupid, for John Fox to sit in his office and say... "Hey guys, let's dream up 2003 Capo for $xx per bottle, that is about what that wine might sell for, go get 'em guys."

There are instamces where PC's suppliers fail to come through, just as there are with every other direct importer and also with 3-tier channels. When that happens, PC works very hard to find the wine or otherwise satisfy the customer, in my experience.

Considering the amount of really hard-to-find wines that PC sells, I think their proportion of supply disruptions are not unreasonable, IMO.

Markus S · #47 Post by **Markus S** » February 6th, 2012, 2:18 pm

"...curiouser and curiouser..." said Alice.

#48 Post by **Chris Blum** » February 6th, 2012, 3:07 pm

Again, Sorry that this is such a contentious issue. I really was curious about how their methodology differs from say K&L.

M A T T H A R T L E Y · #49 Post by **M A T T H A R T L E Y** » February 6th, 2012, 3:08 pm

Carl Steefel wrote:
Chris Blum wrote:Weve all come to accept it as an amusing little minor frustration with a super reliable store.

My question is simply why? Why do they take 6 moths to a year longer than every other store? What is different about their importer or their purcashing schedule?
They are the importer. They assemble wines as far as I know in their Beaune warehouse from deliveries across Europe. On the gray market, normally, but perhaps not exclusively? Then they pack it up and ship it. The slow cases seem to be where the gray market guys do not ship it, e.g., I am still waiting for 2004 Clerico Barolo. I don't think that they have these bottles in their Beaune warehouse, otherwise they would ship it.

Uh huh...

Bill Bøykin · #50 Post by **Bill Bøykin** » February 6th, 2012, 3:21 pm

M A T T H A R T L E Y wrote:
Carl Steefel wrote:
Chris Blum wrote:Weve all come to accept it as an amusing little minor frustration with a super reliable store.

My question is simply why? Why do they take 6 moths to a year longer than every other store? What is different about their importer or their purcashing schedule?
They are the importer. They assemble wines as far as I know in their Beaune warehouse from deliveries across Europe. On the gray market, normally, but perhaps not exclusively? Then they pack it up and ship it. The slow cases seem to be where the gray market guys do not ship it, e.g., I am still waiting for 2004 Clerico Barolo. I don't think that they have these bottles in their Beaune warehouse, otherwise they would ship it.
Uh huh...