Are the best Clos de Vougeots as good as the top wines from Vosne, Chambolle and Gevrey?

A week or so ago, we had a 1964 Gros CV, and it showed beautifully. It was so good, I realized that there must be dirt probably close to the Musigny which is comparable to the Chambertins, Richebourgs etc. For example I would have expected although the Gros Musignis to be much better than they are. Thoughts?

Some of the best Burgundies I have had have been from Clos Vougeot. 1949 Chateau de la Tour (Morin family). 1964 Rene Engel Clos Vougeot. I think with age many of the best are comparable.

Agree with Don, I’ve had some glorious older Clos Vougeots. As always with Burgundy, it’s producer producer producer.

Did I mention producer?

Mark…just for the dirt alone, I would not rate ( the dirt in ) …CdV on the same level ( of the dirt ) in RC, LT, Musigny, Riche, RSV, Chambertin and CdBeze.

I give you an example : DRC will release Corton for vintage 2009 soon ( guess you probaly know list of allocation for 2009 will be going out on or around 01 Feb ). I do not know how DRC will price them but if I have to guess : it will be around the same price or 5% less than Ech.

If DRC will make CdV in the futue and if the dirt is in the upper part, the price will be around the same or 5% cheaper that Ech.

What I want to say is : CdV…is too large a vineyard ( hence with all of kind of dirt in it ) …to say anything definite.

Just my 2 cents ( and just for the fun )… .

I think Clos Vougeot can be fantastic. Try Mugneret Gibourg’s. IMO, It is often better than their Echezeaux or Ruchottes.
The Gros Frere et Soeur Musigni Clos Vougeot parcel is well situated but the winemaking is often problematic (Reverse osmosis etc).

I’ve had a couple vintages of Leroy Clos Vougeot and they have been stunning!

I’ll second Engel; my favorite wine of 2011 was a 1999 Engel Clos Vougeot. And Mugneret Gibourg agrees with Kevin. When you visit there, the last wine you taste is the Clos Vougeot, so they rate it highest, too.

I think the style of Clos Vougeot is certainly different than the more prestigious vineyards. It tends to be less refined, a little rustic even. But that doesn’t it make it worse, just different. But maybe I’m just rationalizing because I can actually acquire and afford Clos Vougeot.

Personally, I’m not convinced that which part of the hill one’s vines are located isn’t a bit of a red herring. For example, Grivot is low, and Grivot does quite well with their Clos Vougeot. As Michel said, producer, producer, producer.

Older texts list Clos-Vougeot as one of the five greatest wines in Burgundy. With the division of the Clos into multiple holdings, much depends on location and producer now, but the wines can be great for those who know how to choose and are willing to let the wine age for a long time – exactly as is the case with Corton.

…It was so good, I realized that there must be dirt probably close to the Musigny which is comparable to the Chambertins, Richebourgs etc. For example I would have expected although the Gros Musignis to be much better than they are. Thoughts?..

I just re=read Mark inital post in this thread. There is a possibility that I mis-read ( or mis-understood ) what he is trying to say. My understanding is : he ( Mark ) is talking about dirt only ( repeat : dirt only ) here in his thread.

Most burugndy lovers know the most important factors in buying Burgundy for enjoyment are : producers, prodcuers and producers.

…probably close to the Musigny which is comparable to the Chambertins, Richebourgs …



…although the Gros Musignis to be much better than they are…

So…please let us just talk…about dirt ( dirt only )

Claude…thanks for posting.

For me, personally at least, the grande ( = big = large in size ) G-crus such as : Corton hill; CdV and Ech…are hungting grounds …for Burgundy geeks. These 3 G-crus will give new comers to the Kingdom of Burgundy…easily … a wrong impression or also a head-ache for new comers too.

Clos de Vougeot has been subdivided and as Claude says, it is variable upon producer and plot, but I would argue vintage as well. In a hot/warm/dry vintage the plots with greater water retention will perform better than those without and vice-versa. In a wetter vintage those with better drainage will be thrilling.

It is however considered that the best plots are near Musigny/close to the Chateau and there is a map of the plots and who owns what. Les Grands Marputuis (at least I believe that is what the spelling is) is arguably the best plot. As a whole, blended, it is perhaps not great but certain producers and plots can most certainly produce great enthral long wines.

Rex…I did comparative tastings in vintage 1995 with Leroy many g-crus. For example…her Musigny, Riche, RSV ( no Chambertin ) and CdV and the levels of difference in quality is quite evident. .

Well, if it was Louis/Jean Gros the CV was from the Le Grand Monpertuis section, if Gros Frere et Soeur, then it was the Musigni (!) section across the road from Musigny (!), both among the best parts of the Clos.
I had a lot of outstanding wines from CV, some 3 months ago a 1959 from Cave des Colas (Macon) negociant bottling, one of the best wines in my “Mature French Wines”-tasting, in September a really fine 1964 CV/Domaine Leymarie, both really exciting. IMH it is not only producer (see Colas … and WHO has ever tasted this CV from Leymarie?) but also vintage, 64 being one of my favorites, the 64 CV Chateau de la Tour/Morin is really fine (I still have 1 or 2).

So when we are talking abour “dirt” (I think we mean terroir) in CV it very much depends from which part the grapes come … the lower sections are often lacking in intensity, but vines close to Musigny or Grands Echezeaux can really have depth, breed and finesse like the best GEs. However I think there is still a certain difference in complexity to Crus like Richebourg or Romanee-St-Vivant … CVs are IMHO simply “simpler” , less exotic, more straightforeward and less fragrant … often quite robust.
Always fascination to compare e.g. in the cellar of Anne Gros - or until 1995 with Michel Gros … the Richebourg is always a step up … if not more intense than at least more “interesting”. The same at JJ Confuron and RSV.

…CVs are IMHO simply “simpler” , less exotic, more straightforeward and less fragrant … often quite robust…

merci…I know I can always depend on you- Gerhard.

I often learn something new from you in reading your posts.

simply “simpler”

Yes I was talking about the land, as I am looking the potential of the vineyard. I agree producers are important, but are obviously limited by the land they are working. A Roumier Marsannay will still be a Marsannay.

Therefore let’s assume that we are talking about a top producer, who knows what he/she is doing. Are there any areas of CV wines, where the wines will be the equal of a Mugnier Musigny, a Rousseau Chambertin or a DRC Richebourg?

I think upper slope Clos Vougeot is way up there among the finest grands crus. Producer is always important, but site is also, IMO.

Louis Jadot makes fine CV from a parcel at the bottom of the slope, and this wine generally is very well regarded. I am a fan. But last year, the '90 Jadot and the '90 Hudelot-Noellat (from the upper slope) were just not from equal terroir. The inherent refinement and class of the H-N wine was on another level.

Jadot parcel goes from bottom of the slop all the way to the upper parts of the middle. Jadot has invested alot in building a drainage on the lower part. The wine is a knockout in 2010.

It was Gros Freres and Soeur. Explains a lot.

When the monks were the sole owner of CdV, they often said the lower part was for the poor, the middle part for the bishops and only the upper part was fit for their Highness : the Pope.

Mark, rankings are odious at this level, IMO, but if I were to rank the grand crus, I could not put upper-slope Clos Vougeot at the same level as Musigny, Chambertin, or Richebourg. I would have it higher than numerous other fine grand crus, however. I regard the middle and lower portions as second division grand cru, but the upper one-third of CV as first division, in my own personal classment of the crus.