Post fermentation fining agent for Pinot/ Is it the same for Chard

Anyone and everyone,

This question is tangential to my WSET diploma studies. 1. Is there a “relative consensus” on what is the best post fermentation fining agent is for Pinot Noir, and why? 2. Is the same fining agent used for Chardonnay, and why or why not? As always, a big thanks to this group!

Not that I see what everyone does, but I don’t recall anyone I work with talking about routinely fining Chards or Pinots. The question post-fermentation is some will let the wines settle in tank and others will go “down and dirty”. Some highly value the lees, so clearly don’t fine. To the other side some “cold crash” their Chards to get as much stuff (including excess tartrates) to naturally drop out before going to barrel.

Seems like more of a “grocery store wine” thing, where appearance is more important than quality.

We make lots of grocery store pinots, and do not use any fining agents on them. Bentonite and KHT are used on chard.

Same boat as Wes and Leslie - I’ve made Pinot Noir for 28 vintages, and consult with 7 or so different wineries and don’t see any fining agents used routinely (actually at all) on Pinot Noir.

Adam Lee
Clarice Wine Company

Thanks to all, this group is a great resource. Lucky to get access to such experts.

Historically, for red wines, egg whites were the traditional fining agent. While red Bordeaux is still often fined with egg white, in Burgundy this is now very rare. There are only a few hold outs, such as Coche-Dury. Raphaël Coche contends that, while one looses some up-front appeal in the first decade, over the long haul fining makes for more stable wines that age better and hold their color longer. Having drunk many great old Burgundies that were certainly fined, I do sometimes wonder what might have been lost when the region pretty much entirely turned its back on fining (in many cases, because it was easier to plaque filter).

For white wines, you can use bentonite for protein stability, and casein/milk to pull out excessive tannins/phenolics. Most top producers of white Burgundy fine, so this is still very much contemporary practice. I can think of a few very oaky Californian white wines that I suspect would be improved by a milk fining before bottling, in fact.

In Champagne, isinglass was the traditional fining agent for vins clairs before tirage, back in the day.

Thanks this tends to mirror the concepts WSETdip is trying to get across (while recognizing the “it depends” stance). What i couldn’t derive was which agent (eg. Casein) was used and why. Again, thank you. Your comments are Burg Pinot are very insightful, why do you think so many stopped the practice of fining? Was it to make the wines more approachable early?

Bentonite is negatively charged whereas proteins are positively charged, so it precipitates out proteins.

Casein is a protein which binds with tannin, so it pulls out tannin.

A quick google revealed this pretty thorough resource: https://www.awri.com.au/industry_support/winemaking_resources/frequently_asked_questions/fining_agents/

Just to chime in, I’d add that I know a number of Chardonnay producers (several of whom make fantastic wines) who feel that a light bentonite fining improves the precision and clarity of the flavors they’re after—so there are aesthetic reasons to use it beyond simply protein stability.

Also, PVPP is another fining agent that’s used in Chard but not in reds. It’s effective at removing color and some of the “browner” flavors/aromas that are associated with oxidation. I’ve heard of it both as a corrective for faulty wines and also used lightly for some whites that have been given long elevage in barrique to take the edge off, so to speak.

(not sure if I should add this, but so far my wines have all been un-fined/filtered)

I tried writing a helpful reply to this thread but it got too long and full of exceptions. If you’re looking for a consensus, especially something that would be familiar to WSET judges, then the comments you’ve already received are great. Just don’t lose sight of the “it depends” caveat you provided earlier. There are people out there fining red wines with PVPP, and there are a variety of fining agents used beyond those mentioned in this thread - vegetable proteins, chitosan, carbon, silica, etc etc.

Again big “thank you”. That phrase “IT DEPENDS” is becoming my go to starting point before stating any facts or broad opinions! I am feeling like a complete idiot on some of these subjects and you guys are great to share!

I don’t make wine anymore (nor am I a WSET person), but I think you question would be better if you were asking what particular qualities one was fining out.

Thanks, everyone, for an informative thread.

Looking at the subject heading again, I wondered, does anyone fine before fermentation? How would that be possible with a red?

Yes, people do fine the must before fermentation in some instances, e.g. when there is a lot of rot on the fruit.

Interesting. You can fine with skins/seeds/stems still in the tank?

No no, you fine the must.

But the fermentation has started by the time you press the juice off the skins, no?

Inspired by David Ramey, I did fine my Chardonnay with Bentonite this year. Didn’t do anything at all to flavors, I found, just added a lot of work and oxygen/aeration that pushes the Chard away from the style I like. But now I’ve tried it!

Typically you would just fine white musts.

If you wanted to fine a red before fermentation for whatever reason, you would do a delestage and fine the must, then return it to the vat with the solids.

There are some people in Bordeaux (and perhaps elsewhere) who do a delestage, settle and decant the must to remove dust etc, and then return to tank with the skins etc. They contend that this produces purer wines.

Fascinating! You’ve got to be pretty committed to the technique to go to all that trouble!