Your Classification for Loire Whites?

I’ve really enjoyed reading the “Classification for Loire Reds” thread started by Julian Marshall, but one thing I kept noticing was people asking about a white wine version of the thread. I did a search and couldn’t find it, so I’m assuming it never got started, so I thought I would get the ball rolling (though I really don’t have the deep experience with Loire whites that a lot of other regular WB posters have).

Anyway, reading the feedback from the posters in the Loire Red thread, I thought maybe the classifications could be done by specific cuvee/cru/vineyards like the Burgundian system, but have the finer grades of distinction found in the Bordeaux system (i.e., First Growth, Second Growth…etc. rather than just Grand Cru vs. Premier Cru).

Also, I’m just going to throw in a Melon cru just because I deeply love it – if others can think of great Sauvignon Blanc or any other white wine(Romorantin, Menu Pineau, etc…) cru, I will add them to the list.

Finally, my initial list is going to be pretty sparse and may be (accidentally) controversial. For example, I’m going to add a vineyard or two in the First Growth category based on reputation of the terroir rather than the current level of winemaking. However, I’m totally open to moving things around and filling in the blanks with the feedback of other posters. I’m also leaving out a lot of producers intentionally – let me know where you think I should place the ones I have omitted.

Anyway, I hope others find this activity fun. (also, leaving off accents just to make the typing go faster)

[EDIT: I’m going to include separate lists for Chenin and Sauvignon Blanc. Adding a “Super First” category]
[EDIT 2: Also adding a bunch of producers from the posters so far. Thank you for adding so much great stuff!]

Super First Growth (Chenin Blanc)

Clos du Bourg - Huet (Vouvray)
Le Mont - Huet (Vouvray)

Breze - Clos Rougeard (Saumur Blanc)

First Growth (Chenin Blanc)

Le Haut Lieu - Huet (Vouvray)
Les Perruches/Les Ruettes (Clos Naudin) - Foreau (Vouvray)
Clos Baudoin - Chidaine (Vouvray)

Coulee de Serrant - Joly (Savennieres)

Clos Roman - Roches Neuves (Saumur Blanc)
Clos de l’Echelier - Roches Neuves (Saumur Blanc)

La Croix Boissee - Baudry (Chinon Blanc)

Second Growth (Chenin Blanc)

Les Deronnieres - Pinon (Vouvray)

Les Bournais - Chidaine (Montlouis-sur-Loire)

Roches aux Moines - Domaine aux Moines (Savennieres)
Clos du Papillon - Baumard (Savennieres)
Clos du Papillon - Domaine du Closel (Savennieres)
Clos de la Hutte - Thibaud Boudignon (Savennières)
Le Hu-Boyau (Cuvee Speciale) - Chateau d’Epire (Savennières)

Clos du Moulin - Roches Neuves (Saumur Blanc)

Third Growth (Chenin Blanc)

Le Bouchet - Chidaine (Vouvray)
Trois Argiles - Pinon (Vouvray)

Clos Habert - Chidaine (Montlouis-sur-Loire)
Clos du Breuil - Chidaine (Montlouis-sur-Loire)

Clos des Perrières - Château Soucherie (Savennières)
Le Parc/La Croix Picot - Chateau d’Epire (Savennières)

Domaine du Collier (Saumur Blanc)
Clos de Guichaux - Domaine Guiberteau (Saumur Blanc)

(Sec) - Domaine de la Roche Bleue (Jasnières)

Fourth Growth (Chenin Blanc)

Touche-Mitaine - Le Rocher des Violettes (Montlouis-sur-Loire)

Fifth Growth (Chenin Blanc)

La Roche Bézigon - Garnier JC (Anjou Blanc)

Super First Growth (Sauvignon Blanc)

Clos la Neore - Vatan (Sancerre)

First Growth (Sauvignon Blanc)

Les Culs de Beaujeu - Cotat, Francois (Sancerre/Chavignol)
Le Grandes Cote - Cotat, Francois (Sancerre/Chavignol)
Le Grandes Cote - Cotat, Pascal (Sancerre/Chavignol)
Les Monts Damnes - Boulay (Sancerre/Chavignol)
Les Monts Damnes - Cotat, Francois (Sancerre/Chavignol)
Les Monts Damnes - Cotat, Pascal (Sancerre/Chavignol)

La Folie (Pur Sang) - Dagueneau (Sancerre)
Cuvee Silex - Dagueneau (Sancerre)

Second Growth (Sauvignon Blanc)

Cailottes - Cotat, Francois (Sancerre/Chavignol)

Les Romains - Vacheron (Sancerre)
Chambrates - Vacheron (Sancerre)

Third Growth (Sauvignon Blanc)

(Cuvee Silex) - Dolly (Sancerre)
Le Chêne Marchand - Lucien Crochet (Sancerre)
Le Chêne Marchand - Vincent Pinard (Sancerre)
Le Château - Vincent Pinard (Sancerre)

(Cuvee Silex) - Dolly (Pouilly-Fume)


Fourth Growth (Sauvignon Blanc)

?

Fifth Growth (Sauvignon Blanc)

(Cuvée Philippa) - Domaine Paul Cherrier (Sancerre)

Super First Growth (Melon)

?

First Growth (Melon)

Clos des Briords - Pepiere (Muscadet Sevre et Maine/Melon)

Second Growth (Melon)

?

Third Growth (Melon)

?

Fourth Growth (Melon)

?

Fifth Growth (Melon)

Origine - Domaine du Haut Bourg (Muscadet-Côtes de Grandlieu)

Why the complete exclusion of sancerre/Sauvignon blanc?

I would create a category above First Growth, call it Uber First Growth and Super First Growth (working with the play on words with Super Seconds in Bordeaux):

VATAN

It is head and shoulders above anything else.

I would also put the various Cotat cuvees - surprised they are missing - in 1st and 2nd. Need to think further which cuvée goes in which category. Or, just put Cotat in First given how it hits so many winners among all its cuvees.

Also missing is Baudry. While we also gone praises about Baudry’s Chinons, it’s Chenin Blanc is outstanding. I’s put its Croix Boissee Chenin Blanc in 2nd.

To be fair, there’s so many excellent chenins and sauv blancs in the Loire, it’s almost easier to put them into two separate lists.

Not that I’ve had it, but on price alone, Rougeard Breze should be in the super-category as well.

Additional 1sts:
Dageneau pouilly fume (pur sang, silex)
Roches neuves (Clos romans, Clos de l’echelier)

2nd
Roche aux moines savenierres
Vacheron les romains Sancerre
Roches neuves Clos du moulin saumur-c
Baumard Clos du papillon savennieres
Gerard Boulay mont damnes Sancerre, maybe others

3rd
Pinon trois argiles and deronnieres vouvray
Alphonse dolly Sancerre and pouilly-fume silex


And as good as Briords is, not sure that I would classify it as a 1st. Certainly a first within muscadet, but it’s not going to ever reach the heights of a 1989 Huet, say. And for that matter, not sure that Chidaine and Foreau would either.

I think Yquem’s status as Premier Cru Superieur is what you’re after!

Not easy to classify them without having a semi complete list of candidates but there are some I feel are missing and my attempt at classifying them:

Thibaud Boudignon Savennières Clos de la Hutte (2nd close to 1st)
Domaine du Collier Saumur (4th close to 3rd)
Lucien Crochet Sancerre Le Chêne Marchand (3rd, haven’t had his other cuvées I think)
Domaine Guiberteau Saumur Clos de Guichaux (3rd)
Domaine de la Roche Bleue Jasnières Sec (4th close to 3rd)
Vincent Pinard Sancerre Chêne Marchand & Le Château (3rd)
Château Soucherie Savennières Clos des Perrières (3rd and to me, sometimes even better)
Le Rocher des Violettes Montlouis-sur-Loire Touche-Mitaine (4th or 5th)
Domaine Paul Cherrier Sancerre Cuvée Philippa (5th)
Domaine Vacheron Sancerre Chambrates (3rd)
Domaine du Haut Bourg Muscadet-Côtes de Grandlieu Origine (5th)
Garnier JC Anjou La Roche Bézigon (5th)

Phil,

I have found your Loire CB recommendations very helpful in the past. Three producers that I really enjoy that have not been mentioned (not naming their vineyards) are Pinon, Foreau, and A. Lambert. I suspect all three have very good vineyard sources.

Those sound like three names I’ve heard a few times along with the accompanying statement: “What do you mean you’ve never tried Foreau/Pinon/Lambert”?

I received an offer for some Clos Naudin just this morning (sweet 2018 and dry 2019) and if I wasn’t stopping my purchases before my relocation, your comment would have been the gentle reminder to just get some!

I’ll make it a point to try these in the near future. Thanks Chris!

I would add Chateau d’Epire Savennieres as a 2nd growth.

Just because I am not familiar with Sancerre.

If you know of any you think are great and should be classified, that would be great!

You’re right. I’m going to edit the top post to include separate lists for Chenin, SB, and Muscadet.

Also, I will add a “Super First” per Robert’s suggestion.

If feels like Damien Laureau’s Savennieres fit in the discussions. The Roche aux Moines is absolutely superb and Le Bel Ouvrage is also quite good.

Olga Raffault’s Champ-Chenin should be somewhere on there. 2nd? 3rd? Always wonderful. And I’ve had 30-40 year old bottles that tasted straight up youthful.

Mosse’s Marie-Besnard is a serious, serious wine. Among the best chenin I’ve had. Their other wines are more approachable but also very good too.

Thanks for the tip, have really enoyed every Mosse wine I’ve had so I’ll look out for this one.


On a separate note, remarkable the logarithmic price differential between Chenin and Sauv Blanc “1st class superior.” I would say I prefer chenin to sauv blanc in general and that’s before knowing the prices, but maybe I just haven’t scaled the ladder high enough on the SB side.

It is nuts. Like someone crammed 3 bottles of normal chenin into 1 bottle. I popped the 2015 about 6 months ago and it was just so obviously built for the long haul. I have two more, and I will save them until my old age.

W/ Sauv Blanc, I’ve had wonderful old Gerard Boulay, 2003 I think, for like $60. I rarely spend the kind of money that Vatan costs, but the Boulay convinced me that I could really care about Sauvignon Blanc.

Also, over in Menetou-Salon, Domaine Pelle is making wonderful single vineyard SB for about $30. I’ve only had young ones, but almost certain they’ll age very well.

Not sure why F. Cotat’s culs de beaujeu would be below the monts damnes. For one thing, it’s usually priced higher! Should be 1st growth.

I love Huet. I drink, buy and cellar them. I have tasted them sweet and dry. From mid 90’s vintages to newer vintages within the last couple of years. They are rather cheap and very available… but, i think we are overrating them a bit here. In my book there is a lot of good Chenin Blanc in Loire.
Just looked through some of the good bottles i had within the last few years. Here are a couple that i enjoyed as much or more than most Huet’s I’ve tasted.

Nicolas Reau, Victoire, 2014
Mosse, Les Bonnes Blanches, 2017
Mosse, Arena, 2016
Domaine du Collier, Saumur Blanc, 2016.
Mark Angeli, Les Fouchardes, 2015
La Grapperie, Le Pressoir de Saint Pierre, 2011
Jean-Pierre Robinot, Cuvee Juliette, 2008.

And i probably forgot some.

I also really like Boudignon’s wines, but I’ve only tasted them too young so far, so the verdict is still out. But the energy!

Thanks, I moved up Culs de Beaujeu.

Fun listing!

Personally, now that you’ve separated the Firsts, I’d put Baudry in that First cat. It’s every bit as good as the others. Joly is a wildcard, no? I would not personally put Le Mont in Super First.

Ok, I’m going through the posts and placing other cuvees mentioned in this thread in the list. Feel free to comment on where you think they should be placed in the master lists above. (Or add additional cuvees/producers that should be mentioned).

Also, let me know whether you think I should downgrade Huet Clos du Bourg or Le Mont to “First Growth.” I just think they are so classic and represent quintessential Vouvray, thus they deserve the extra recognition. But, I understand if others think I’m not being totally objective about Huet.

Also, as a side note, I placed Clos Baudoin and Coulee de Serrant in the “First Growth” category mainly because of the terroirs’ reputations more so than current winemaking. From what I know, the previous winemaker for Clos Baudoin underachieved and Chidaine right now is trying to fix the vineyard with new vines. Also, I know Coulee de Serrant under Nicholas Joly is a little polarizing, but I thought it should still be at “First Growth” just because of the quality of the terroir itself.

CHENIN BLANC

Arnaud Lambert, Clos de Midi
Arnaud Lambert, Perrieres
Arnaud Lambert, Coulee de Saint-Cyr
Arnaud Lambert, Clos David
Arnaud Lambert, Clos de la Rue
Damien Laureau, Savennieres
Olga Raffault, Champ-Chenin
Nicolas Reau, Victoire
Mosse, Marie-Besnard
Mosse, Les Bonnes Blanches
Mosse, Arena
Mark Angeli, Les Fouchardes
La Grapperie, Le Pressoir de Saint Pierre
Jean-Pierre Robinot, Cuvee Juliette

SAUVIGNON BLANC

Domaine Pelle, (various cuvees)