Pricing of premier vs grand cru

Lots of great responses in a recent thread I started “1er Crus it Grand Cru Quality”. It brought up a few follow up questions, that I wanted to post separately. That way the info wouldn’t get buried in thread drift that went all over the place. Hope you all don’t mind. My final follow up (for now at least):

There was a little heat when discussing whether or not putting “Grand Cru” on the label really would move prices much. What do you all think? Would upgrading a well regarded 1er to Grand Cru really move the price much? Personally I’m not sure.

And related- would promoting a village vineyard to 1er cru raise the price? Especially in a place with no 1er crus like the Maconnais or Marsannay, my feeling is that this would raise the price substantially. But what do I know? Curious what you think.

This experiment is being run in the Mâconnais, with a 2020 start date, so we will know soon.

The act of promotion might have a short term effect, but overall the market prices now by producer and vineyard, so I doubt it would change much. Amoureuses is now generally more expensive than Bonnes Mares at the same producer.

But if you look at Chapelle Chambertin, the Tremblay 2010 fetches $1800 a bottle, while I cannot sell my magnums of Jadot for $400 each. Critics score about them the same. Rarity and sex appeal and the Jayer connection result in this irrational pricing model, but it tells you something about Burgundy and how crazy the market is.

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The last Premier Cru that I remember being elevated to Grand Cru was La Grande Rue in 1992. This is not a wine I see very often and I do not remember ever buying it (I did taste a 2008 at the Paulee in NYC a number of years back), so I am not sure of what happened with pricing after the elevation. My sense is that it went up a lot but others may know more than I do.

Mark is correct that prices for highly respected really small producers are much higher than for excellent larger producers like Jadot, Drouhin and Bouchard. This is the exact opposite from when I first started buying Burgundy when things were more like they are currently in Champagne - where people buy most farmer fizz as a QPR alternative to the big houses. I do not know of any spots in the world where wine pricing is rational. But, if you look at the prices of Jadot, with maybe an exception or two (for example, a villages level wine from a more prestigious village often with sell for more than a premier cru from a less prestigious village), prices for grand crus are higher than for premier crus, etc.

I never could understand the Tremblay pricing relative to critic scores. That may be the biggest disconnect in pricing relative to Burgundy ratings in the Alice in Wonderland world of Burgs. She is not Henri Jayer, but you would think that the wines are equivalent based on the vineyard and price structure.

I read some comments from Jasper Morris in one of his recent group tastings with other critics that he was more impressed with the quality of larger houses in certain areas than many small boutique producers. Hinted at the fact that when you taste blind, places like Dom del la Vougeraie really can stack up well with the smaller producers. Only makes sense after all. Money and vineyard holdings with passionate leadership have an advantage over the little guys despite who we may be inclined to root for. (the little guys). Jadot in particular (perhaps because of ownership? Lots of baseball fans tend to root against the Yankees) appears to be a target of “label licker” Burg aficionados who don’t seem to value the quality of what is in the bottle. Is it impossible that just because there are larger producers that they are incapable of producing a “magical” Burgundy? Faiveley at times seems to have a similar bias against their wines (prices) with the exception of Musigny that goes for a crazy price. (again, rarity looks like the driving factor there) Looking at Faiveley Mazis-Chambertin, the 2018 can be had for $350 while Rousseau is more than double that, with virtually identical critic appraisal.

I wouldn’t feel too badly about having to drink magnums of Jadot Chapelle Chambertin at $400. I might twinge a lot more at $1,800 for Tremblay! It is a weird universe that when a producer can raise prices and cut production, they get a lot more money for their product. Burgundian Jedi mind tricks indeed!

(Sorry for the thread drift but) this is a great point re Champagne, and appears to be changing of late. If Champagne follows Burgundy down this path it’s concerning for affordability of high quality grower wines in the future. Then again, it would not be surprising given how objectively good and inexpensive relative to other regions many of the growers still are…

I think the premise you’re responding to isn’t correct anymore though - today “farmer fizz” isn’t a QPR alternative to big house champagne, it’s often better. Other than Roederer, I think the big houses mostly aren’t making very exciting stuff at the moment and big houses have, due to their nature, devoted much of their money to marketing a lifestyle product as much as making wine. (I like Comtes a lot, but if you visit Taittinger you have to watch a long video that’s basically an infomercial.)
I think in general, the comparison between champagne and burgundy is a very imperfect one because producer negociants like Bouchard/Drouhin/Jadot were never at the top of the Burgundy hierarchy in terms of perceived quality.

Well, in a “mean” village the pricing might be something like:
village wine is 1, Premier Cru is 1.5 to 2, Grand Cru is 2 to 3+ …
but there are a lot of exceptions, on one hand hyped Premier Crus like Cros Parantoux and Amoureuses, on the other hand Grand Crus like Musigny, La Romanée(-Conti) etc. … and the best (well-known) producers usually fetch an extra over the mean prices …

What does an allocation of mugnier Amoureuses go for vs his bonnes mares?

Amoureuses is app. 30% more expensive than BM, and Musigny double-BM (not same vintage, cause the last M. officially released was 2014)

Thanks. I paid 30% more for ‘14 musigny than ‘13. Were Amoureuses and BM the same increase?

Dennis,
Don’t get me wrong, I like Tremblay’s wines, and there is a certain core of fruit that I particularly enjoy. The 2008 Chapelle is superb.

2018 to 2019 BM and Amoureuses were roughly 11-12% more expensive.
Cannot compare Musigny because I got my 2013 M. already in 2015.
BTW: Chambolle Village and NSG Marechale 1er Cru are the same price!

I actually think the marechale is undervalued. An ‘05 last night was surprisingly secondary and getting close to the downward slope, but delicious. And you don’t really have to fight to get it.