Foreign restaurant wine lists with Calif. wines

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S. Stevenson
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Foreign restaurant wine lists with Calif. wines

#1 Post by S. Stevenson »

Usually they are less than extensive with the obvious selections. But Geranium in Copenhagen is an exception. Check out the Napa and Central Coast list for example(pages 117-129):

https://www.geranium.dk/media/1141/wine ... 8-2021.pdf
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Re: Foreign restaurant wine lists with Calif. wines

#2 Post by AndyK »

After converting some of the prices to US$, I guess it's not too hard to maintain a long list if you're not expecting to sell anything...
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Re: Foreign restaurant wine lists with Calif. wines

#3 Post by ATaylor »

AndyK wrote: October 14th, 2021, 5:04 pm After converting some of the prices to US$, I guess it's not too hard to maintain a long list if you're not expecting to sell anything...
Welcome to Scandinavian wine pricing…
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Re: Foreign restaurant wine lists with Calif. wines

#4 Post by Nathan Smyth »

Extremely long list of Corison, going back to 1989.

Sadly, though, no Togni & no Arcadian.

I didn't bother to do the currency conversion.

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Re: Foreign restaurant wine lists with Calif. wines

#5 Post by Paul @bbott »

Generally I have found in most wine producing countries they major on domestic products, and in others like the UK Californian wines are relatively expensive. They don’t therefore tend to have a strong presence in European restaurants. Geranium really is an exception to the rule.

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Re: Foreign restaurant wine lists with Calif. wines

#6 Post by Andy Sc »

Geranium is probably the best wine list I've ever seen in a restaurant. And the food and service are absolutely top notch. Well deserved #2 restaurant in the world.
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Re: Foreign restaurant wine lists with Calif. wines

#7 Post by Kent Comley »

That's a stunning list - top to bottom. So many trophies.
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Re: Foreign restaurant wine lists with Calif. wines

#8 Post by S. Stevenson »

Nathan Smyth wrote: October 14th, 2021, 9:25 pm Extremely long list of Corison, going back to 1989.

Sadly, though, no Togni & no Arcadian.

I didn't bother to do the currency conversion.
Divide the price by 6 to get the approximate dollar equivalent.
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Re: Foreign restaurant wine lists with Calif. wines

#9 Post by S. Stevenson »

Andy Sc wrote: October 14th, 2021, 11:29 pm Geranium is probably the best wine list I've ever seen in a restaurant. And the food and service are absolutely top notch. Well deserved #2 restaurant in the world.
Imagine: 30(!) vintages of Dominus, 11 of Sine Qua Non and 14 of Screaming Eagle including a magnum of the '92. Mind boggling.
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Re: Foreign restaurant wine lists with Calif. wines

#10 Post by Russell Faulkner »

Kent Comley wrote: October 15th, 2021, 1:06 am That's a stunning list - top to bottom. So many trophies.
True. But finding something to match the food at a reasonable price is somewhat harder. But reasonable is personal!
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Re: Foreign restaurant wine lists with Calif. wines

#11 Post by D@vid Bu3ker »

Paul @bbott wrote: October 14th, 2021, 10:31 pm Generally I have found in most wine producing countries they major on domestic products, and in others like the UK Californian wines are relatively expensive. They don’t therefore tend to have a strong presence in European restaurants. Geranium really is an exception to the rule.
There's not so much wine production in Denmark!
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Re: Foreign restaurant wine lists with Calif. wines

#12 Post by J Slawney »

The Geranium list is exceptional in many ways. Many French Michelin star restaurants carry little to no US wine. The standard answer when asked why, is "People come to France to drink French wine."
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Re: Foreign restaurant wine lists with Calif. wines

#13 Post by Jon Lawrence »

D@vid Bu3ker wrote: October 15th, 2021, 11:29 am
Paul @bbott wrote: October 14th, 2021, 10:31 pm Generally I have found in most wine producing countries they major on domestic products, and in others like the UK Californian wines are relatively expensive. They don’t therefore tend to have a strong presence in European restaurants. Geranium really is an exception to the rule.
There's not so much wine production in Denmark!
Just one red from Denmark on the list

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Re: Foreign restaurant wine lists with Calif. wines

#14 Post by Jon Lawrence »

Impressive to see '08 Comtes offered by the glass, although not cheap. The bottle price isn't bad. '74 Monday Reserve is not something I would have expected on the list, let alone any Mondavi. '18 Coche Meursault for $700 US is current retail. I wonder how they price the bottles that say 'Rarity" like '76 Jayer. Although I guess if you have to ask, you can't afford it anyways.

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Re: Foreign restaurant wine lists with Calif. wines

#15 Post by Vince T »

I'm sure it's very costly to import US wines, but hard to justify picking them over other wines at the same price.

For 6000 DKR ($935), you can drink:
1995 Ridge Monte Bello
2013 Shafer HSS
2011 Dalla Valle Maya

Or you can drink Rayas, pick any vintage from 01, 04, 06, 07, 08.

I guess if you're European, you probably have way more access to Rayas than Shafer HSS, but in the US, Shafer HSS goes for ~$300 on the secondary market, whereas 2007 Rayas has been hammering close to $1500.
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Re: Foreign restaurant wine lists with Calif. wines

#16 Post by Vince T »

Jon Lawrence wrote: October 15th, 2021, 12:24 pm
D@vid Bu3ker wrote: October 15th, 2021, 11:29 am
Paul @bbott wrote: October 14th, 2021, 10:31 pm Generally I have found in most wine producing countries they major on domestic products, and in others like the UK Californian wines are relatively expensive. They don’t therefore tend to have a strong presence in European restaurants. Geranium really is an exception to the rule.
There's not so much wine production in Denmark!
Just one red from Denmark on the list
But 6 whites!
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Re: Foreign restaurant wine lists with Calif. wines

#17 Post by Kent Comley »

Russell Faulkner wrote: October 15th, 2021, 11:13 am
Kent Comley wrote: October 15th, 2021, 1:06 am That's a stunning list - top to bottom. So many trophies.
True. But finding something to match the food at a reasonable price is somewhat harder. But reasonable is personal!
Agreed. You need a thick wallet but I did think as I was reading it that you could drink quite well for AU $300 to $500. A lot of the big guns were at auction price in today’s crazy world, but I did balk at the rarities section whereby if the wine is faulty, the customer wears it. To me that is not really cricket.
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Re: Foreign restaurant wine lists with Calif. wines

#18 Post by Arv R »

Sometimes it seems like US wines are like German wines - the local population is prosperous enough to gobble up all the high end wines, so they don't 'need' the export markets the way other nations might.
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Re: Foreign restaurant wine lists with Calif. wines

#19 Post by S. Stevenson »

Jon Lawrence wrote: October 15th, 2021, 12:36 pm I wonder how they price the bottles that say 'Rarity" like '76 Jayer. Although I guess if you have to ask, you can't afford it anyways.
Go to page 142 for the prices on the 'rarities'. The '76 Jayer is ~$21,500. Most expensive is the SE '92 mag at ~$65,000.
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Re: Foreign restaurant wine lists with Calif. wines

#20 Post by John Morris »

J Slawney wrote: October 15th, 2021, 11:42 am The Geranium list is exceptional in many ways. Many French Michelin star restaurants carry little to no US wine. The standard answer when asked why, is "People come to France to drink French wine."
Which is true.
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Re: Foreign restaurant wine lists with Calif. wines

#21 Post by GaryShull »

S. Stevenson wrote: October 15th, 2021, 11:09 am
Andy Sc wrote: October 14th, 2021, 11:29 pm Geranium is probably the best wine list I've ever seen in a restaurant. And the food and service are absolutely top notch. Well deserved #2 restaurant in the world.
Imagine: 30(!) vintages of Dominus, 11 of Sine Qua Non and 14 of Screaming Eagle including a magnum of the '92. Mind boggling.
How much for the chopper ride?

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Re: Foreign restaurant wine lists with Calif. wines

#22 Post by Chris Crutchfield »

Arv R wrote: October 15th, 2021, 1:57 pm Sometimes it seems like US wines are like German wines - the local population is prosperous enough to gobble up all the high end wines, so they don't 'need' the export markets the way other nations might.
Hmm, it may be some of that, but I would argue there just isn’t that much demand for American wines, particularly at their price points. I wonder whether the people ordering American wines off the list at this restaurant are primarily European or non-European tourists…

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Re: Foreign restaurant wine lists with Calif. wines

#23 Post by Arv R »

Chris Crutchfield wrote: October 15th, 2021, 4:50 pm
Arv R wrote: October 15th, 2021, 1:57 pm Sometimes it seems like US wines are like German wines - the local population is prosperous enough to gobble up all the high end wines, so they don't 'need' the export markets the way other nations might.
Hmm, it may be some of that, but I would argue there just isn’t that much demand for American wines, particularly at their price points. I wonder whether the people ordering American wines off the list at this restaurant are primarily European or non-European tourists…
It's likely just way more profitable for a (high end) US winery to sell DTC and not worry about whether they are getting placement in global Michelin high stars and dealing with exporters.
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Re: Foreign restaurant wine lists with Calif. wines

#24 Post by J Slawney »

We gave noticed that, basically, for Noma, only people on their Email list can get reasonable bookings, the public is sort of shut out: it has "gone private." Is this the same for Geranium? (Asking for a friend.) Also, as an aside, while French and Italian and US wines are well chosen and stocked at Geranium, there are some real puzzling aspects in their selection of German and Austrian wines: sure there is sufficient selection of Keller (at premium prices), but no sweet wines from Robert Weil, many top producers from Pfalz not represented, etc. I could go on about this for a while.
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Re: Foreign restaurant wine lists with Calif. wines

#25 Post by Jon Lawrence »

S. Stevenson wrote: October 15th, 2021, 2:05 pm
Jon Lawrence wrote: October 15th, 2021, 12:36 pm I wonder how they price the bottles that say 'Rarity" like '76 Jayer. Although I guess if you have to ask, you can't afford it anyways.
Go to page 142 for the prices on the 'rarities'. The '76 Jayer is ~$21,500. Most expensive is the SE '92 mag at ~$65,000.
Proves me right that if I have to ask, I can't afford it! [cheers.gif]

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Re: Foreign restaurant wine lists with Calif. wines

#26 Post by Jon Lawrence »

Vince T wrote: October 15th, 2021, 1:11 pm I'm sure it's very costly to import US wines, but hard to justify picking them over other wines at the same price.

For 6000 DKR ($935), you can drink:
1995 Ridge Monte Bello
2013 Shafer HSS
2011 Dalla Valle Maya

Or you can drink Rayas, pick any vintage from 01, 04, 06, 07, 08.

I guess if you're European, you probably have way more access to Rayas than Shafer HSS, but in the US, Shafer HSS goes for ~$300 on the secondary market, whereas 2007 Rayas has been hammering close to $1500.
I think you found the value reds on the list.

Rayas saved the day for me in a fancy French restaurant years ago. My wife and I were at Guy Savoy in Paris in 2010 and I found myself struggling to find wines that we could afford and enjoy. Just as an example, the price for each of the '00 first growths were 5k Euros which was about $6500 US back then. For some reason, the '05 Rayas was only 500 Euros and that is what we drank along with a bottle of '96 Billecart Salmon Elisabeth Salmon that was also priced at 500 Euros.
Last edited by Jon Lawrence on October 16th, 2021, 6:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Foreign restaurant wine lists with Calif. wines

#27 Post by CJ Beazley »

Is it unusual to see this disclaimer on the ‘captains list’?
“Dear Guest
The rarity wines are to be considered as auction items and antiqueties. The wines are served at your own risk. If the wines are faulty, there will be no discount or changing of bottles.”
It's C(raig)

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Re: Foreign restaurant wine lists with Calif. wines

#28 Post by Dan Kravitz »

Hey, 1998 Corison 'Kronos' is barely $1000. OTOH, it's a really miserable vintage. But with smart shopping there are wines with bottle age and prices not out of line.

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Re: Foreign restaurant wine lists with Calif. wines

#29 Post by Peter Z. »

To put all in perspective: Don't forget there is already 25% VAT included in these prices, plus tips in Europe are not at levels seen in the USA.
And indeed, if you're lucky you can find Rayas cheaper than Shafer HSS in Europe. Not too long ago I picked up a bottle of 2007 Rayas at 270 Euro in a French store, whereas HSS is typically over 300 Euro (with best option to find US wines is actually in Germany).
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Re: Foreign restaurant wine lists with Calif. wines

#30 Post by J Slawney »

Peter Z. wrote: October 16th, 2021, 9:59 pm (with best option to find US wines is actually in Germany).
Yes, a friend of mine imports and distributes US wines in Germany with a passion. He also advocates them to German gourmet restaurants. That is why you will see alot of Sandhi whites (and some amazing Napa) on Michelin-level wine lists in Germany. [thumbs-up.gif]
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Re: Foreign restaurant wine lists with Calif. wines

#31 Post by Andy Sc »

Vince T wrote: October 15th, 2021, 1:11 pm I guess if you're European, you probably have way more access to Rayas than Shafer HSS, but in the US, Shafer HSS goes for ~$300 on the secondary market, whereas 2007 Rayas has been hammering close to $1500.
Shafer HSS is widely available in Europe. Rayas is the rarity you get one or max a few bottles allocated (if you are a longstanding and good client). But it is true, that again and again you find Rayas on top notch restaurant wine lists, usually below retail price (which is more a reflection of the crazy price development of Rayas in recent years and the restaurants not keeping up with that, than of the restaurants trying to give a good deal).
Based in Europe, a special place for Bordeaux and Burgundy but with love for so many regions every now and then. Schepp

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