I'd like to hear from the old(er) timers

As a relative newcomer to the scene, I’m curious to hear from those with much more experience than myself.

We all constantly hear about how great it was back in the day when you could buy a bottle of Lafite for the price of a hamburger or whatever. Even over the few years I’ve been into wine I’ve seen prices steadily creep upwards. Surely, many of us newer to the hobby feel a pang of jealousy hearing about the cases of back-vintage First Growth Bordeaux and Grand Cru Burgundy that was purchased on release for a pittance. A constant refrain from the more experienced among us seems to be “I miss those days.”

On the other hand, from what I understand, the overall quality at all price points is higher than it’s ever been. The wine consumer of today has more options than ever before. Opportunities abound to try wines from many areas that were all but inaccessible until recently. The online marketplace has also made it much easier to source old bottles. More and more producers are making wine in an environmentally conscious way.

So, were the old days all that they are cracked up to be, especially in comparison to today? Was it better to be experiencing wine decades ago, or is it getting better and better? I’m so curious to hear the opinions of those older and wiser than myself. Thanks!

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I don’t qualify, but I have to imagine it is a mixed bag. On one hand, as you say, prices have gone up as demand has grown amid heavy competition for the big gun wines, but with the internet there is far more access to far more wines and there is a ton of new quality producers, regions, styles, etc.

As a medium old consumer my lament is that the style of all wines has changed and while vintages are more consistent year over year, I wonder if the special vintages and old world style is irrevocably gone for good.

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My personal take, as someone who has been serious about wine since the 1980s:

  1. Into the 1980s, Bordeaux was more inconsistent than it is today, at all levels. There were more underripe, dilute and defective wines then. But many of the top properties since then – particularly since the 90s – have moved to a riper style that makes them more uniform and less interesting, to my palate. Prices skyrocketed for top wines. (I bought 1982 Pichon-Lalande off the shelf at $20.) Cru bourgeois wines got better and prices didn’t run up that much. So, pros and cons.

  2. Some of the same factors were at work in the Rhone – more consistency, more Parkerization (riper, more new oak). The Southern Rhone was victimized by consultants pushing riper wines. Prices went wild in the Northern Rhone for the top traditional producers because the volume is miniscule. Bottom line: Net slightly negative.

  3. Overall, Burgundy has improved in quality over the past 25 or 35 years. The prices have skyrocketed. Net positive, except for prices.

  4. Napa cabs did a Thelma and Louise number (driving over the cliff) with ripeness starting in the 90s. The new breed of cabs are nothing like the cabs that made Napa’s reputation from the late 60s to roughly 1980. Cult cabs were created and went for crazy prices. Not my style. Seems like tulip (or berry syrup) mania to me. Net negative.

  5. Across Italy, the quality of winemaking improved. Barolo and Barbaresco gained recognition. Prices rose but, with a few exceptions (e.g., Giacosa, G Conterno, B. Mascarello), the prices aren’t nutso given the quality. But there are no steals, as there were into the 90s. After a brief flirtation with modern techniques (short fermentations to minimize tannin, new oak, etc.), most producers have returned to more traditional techniques in the last 15 years. The wines are less likely to show oxidative notes than they were before the 80s. Net positive.

  6. In Spain, traditionalists still thrive in Rioja. Those who made dense, atypical Rioja and over-the-top Priorats have retreated. Sanity has been restored. Prices aren’t bad. And other regions have into their own. Net positive.

  7. There are way more good wines available from areas that traditionally were not so prestigious – the Loire, the Jura, the Languedoc, southern Italy, Mencia, Ribero Sacra. Net positive.

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Agree with the broad strokes of John’s post. For the very tippy-top wines from the name appellations, they were a lot more affordable. But there are a lot more great wines from all over now, generally priced attractively. So, at the inflation-adjusted prices of current-day $100-300, you could drink extremely well, if you knew which wines to choose. At the $40 level, I think the present-day buyer has better options.

That post from John is great. Not much of an old timer here, but but I’d like to ask John a follow up on Bordeaux. Pick a mid-level BDX today, like Lafon Rochet, Haut Bages Liberal, Meyney, Canon La Gaffeliere or the like, or something of equivalent price that your prefer, and is it true that you are getting a much better wine at a largely affordable price that, while not a first growth, is significantly rewarding? Just interested in the perceptions of those who have been at it a while. Thanks.

I think the best wines “then” were just as good as the best wines now, and obviously much more affordable, but the total universe of wine opportunity is so much greater now that no one needs to feel like they came to the game too late.

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As someone who is in between I would just note that it is much more difficult to just say “lets splurge” and get that ‘agreed upon by all’ top wine. The prices really are on another level now. For the non-wealthy trying a top end wine is a real decision and not a mere whim.

There is likely more good wine across many regions and price levels. But there are also more wines that have veered away from the non-traditional. Many of those wines are same-y rather than singularly great. So likely more knowledge or research is required prior to purchase now than say in the 80’s prior to much of the ‘modernization’ of wine creation.

I strongly disagree. Today, at all levels wines have never been better.

For example, look at Bordeaux. In the good old days, let’s say the 80s, almost every grape made it into the Grand Vin, very little of the harvest was placed into second wines, that’s if an estate even had a second wine.

Very little selection was employed in the vineyards. Yields were high. Most estates were not yet green harvesting. In the cellars all the parcels were treated the same.

Today, it’s not uncommon for 30-60% of the harvest to be placed into second and third wines. Yields are dramatically reduced from what they they were. In the cellars, now, most of the top estates vinify each parcel in its own vat.

In the vineyards, now, you find more properties moving to organic or biodynamic farming. Very few estates use chemicals in the soils.

Today, on average, many of the best properties make an average of 40-50% less wine per hectare than they did in the 80s. Estates are serious about sorting.

Today wines show more purity of fruit. The tannins are silkier, wines are more elegant.

I realize numerous people on this board wish to return to how things were. What I call progress, they think it’s ruined wine.

Another important point, today all the small appellations are producing better, more affordable wines than ever! These wines are fabulous to drink young and they sell for a song!

On the negative side, wines were a lot less money in the good old days. For example, in the mid 90s, 89 Haut Brion was $100, 89 LMHB was $80. 90 Cheval, Margaux and Latour were $100. 89 La Conseillante was $45, 89 Lynch Bages was $30. Futures were less.

There were no allocations and proportionate to your income, all the top wines were affordable.

Prices are not going to fall unless the stock market crashes. People are much wealthier today. The combination of massive wealth accumulation, less wine being produced, coupled with more countries competing for the best wines, the Internet and ease of world-wide shipping will continue pushing prices up for established brands.

Lastly, every generation looks forward and back. Real old timers thought prices for 82 Bordeaux were crazy. 61 First Growths were $10 or less!

In 20 years, while I doubt the same level of price rises will continue, the next generation will think you were living on the good old days!

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Back then, it was easy to attend tastings of wines. Good retailers would show all the first and second growths and you could pick and choose with ease. There were even tastings of Burgundies. Now there are more choices and probably better over all quality across the board. Now, as back then, knowledge was key. Knowing your palate and tasting extensively. The chances of tastings, seems to me, was easier back then.

Deleted.

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I agree with every point in John’s post above. The one thing that sticks out in my mind was feeling I could reasonably justify buying virtually any wine out there. Maybe only a bottle or two, but something. The only exceptions for me were DRC and Petrus. There may have been one or two more I’m not thinking of, but that was about it. That aspect I do miss

From my Uk-based perspective

  • in hindsight the price differential between mundane and exclusive has ballooned. Cheap wines aren’t that much more expensive than they were 20-30 years ago, but lots of fancy wines that were £20-£40 back then are now many hundreds of pounds, in some cases thousands
  • That colours my view on where value is, and I find ~ £15-£30 to be a good range where good interesting wines can be found (for a reasonable price).
  • What I have from earlier years will get drunk, but I will not expect it to be worth the current prices and it’s important I set that expectation, otherwise I will be disappointed.
  • I don’t hold to the ‘wine is better than ever’ viewpoint. In some cases I’d firmly agree with it, but in others I’d vehemently disagree (e.g. St Emilion or other regions chasing elevated alcohol). One recommendation is to follow those areas that do re-emerge from disappointing times as we’ve done for the likes of Soave and Chianti. i.e. ‘catch the wave early’. As wine geeks, we’re well-placed to judge this.
  • In Italy (my main interest) I would say the modern grower/winemaker setup has definitely lifted standards from the old negociant days, though there are still minor grumbles e.g. some plots may be single vineyard, but that vineyard may not be worthy of the premium
  • Get tasting and taste widely. The more we taste, the more we work out what we like, but the wider we taste, the greater the likelihood of finding great value to our palate. The availability of tastings is one really positive change IMO, as it gives us a wider insight than the old establishment.
  • Likewise clever use of the internet, can bring a wealth of information / insight to us these days, though of course clever filtering is needed!
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With regard to domestic wines, when I was a post-doc I was buying BV Private Reserve for $6, and Heitz Martha’s Vineyard for $12. Sweet.

What John said.

The biggest negatives have been in Napa (more cab at the expense of everything else, and a style of cab I don’t care for and the “prestige” pricing that goes with it - not that there aren’t exceptions) and in the prices of the consensus “very best wines in the world.” Of course all prices rise with overall inflation, but there was a time that the very best examples of the most well-regarded wine regions were within reach of most to at least try once (say, by going in with a tasting group on buying a bottle if nothing else). No longer. Nobody just getting into wine today is going to try Petrus, or Rayas, or DRC, etc., etc., unless through the generosity of others or if they are well up into the upper reaches of the 1% (or maybe the lower part of the 1% if they choose to allocate an extreme percentage of their income to wine). Not that those wines are what one should focus on if one isn’t a hedge fund manager, but they can be important touchstones. And not that I have actually tried them all. I could have, and would have made the stretch as to most of them back in the day had I known what was coming, but only did as to some and not to others. So it goes.

But otherwise mostly positive.

The other big overhanging negative is that much (certainly not all) of the positive has been due to global warming helping lots of our favorite regions have fewer crappy vintages, but we know that freight train isn’t stopping and will produce more and more negatives in the future (for wine and the larger world) as it keeps on chooglin’.

But mostly positive (just to end on an upbeat note). More places making more great wine, more access to learn about and buy these wines, more places with fewer lousy producers and more producers making quality juice, more attention to sustainability, soil health, water conservation, etc.,

I agree with everything you say, Cris, except the bolded part. If you go back a few decades, there were definitely more poorly made and flawed wines on the market from the Old World, so you couldn’t blindly buy, say, a mid-priced Chianti or cru bourgeois Bordeaux with great confidence. So you sometimes had to do some research to avoid a different kind of problem.

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Been into wine since the mid-80’s and I would echo John’s comments. Overall a net positive. Prices have gone up, so the things I couldn’t afford then I cannot afford now. There was a sweet spot in the 1990’s and early 2000’s when prices didn’t catch up with quality yet and the internet/social media wasn’t such a factor in promoting limited wines.

The good-old days were not entirely good.



Thanks for your inputs. Re the uniformity argument in Bordeaux:I hear this often but I’m not always sure if that’s just a hunch or if it’s based on extensively tasting the old and younger wines. Are your statements based on also broadly tasting the more recent vintages too? I ask because my experience is different than yours: I’ve participated in 55-60 wines horizontals of the 2009 and 2010 vintages in the past two years, tasted around 25 different 2014s, 30 2015s, 40 2016s, 20 2017s, 30 2018s and I’ve found quite dramatic differences and not only in quality but in style. From wine to wine, appellation to appellation and vintage to vintage (and both on the left and right bank, although more pronounced on the left bank but maybe that’s just is because I drink more left bank). I haven’t been around drinking wine in the 70s or 80s or but still had around 150 Bdxs from 1878 to 1990 over the past 7 years and didn’t found much bigger differences than I find in younger vintages.

You can still drink a lot of the best wines in many regions for not outrageous amounts.

Yquem, Allemand, Chave, are all <$500.

There are lots of others, Moric, Lopez de Heredia, etc

Even Macdonald if you are lucky enough to be on the list or get it for not full secondary market prices.

Many wines suffered damage to different degrees due to non temperate transportation especially European wines from Italy and Spain. Much better today, IMO, but far from perfect.

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