Of course there would always be a too far in the AFWE world just as there was in the too ripe world… I really enjoyed Jon Bonne’s New California Wine and sought out a lot of those producers as I was coming into my understanding of Pinot especially.
Now I find myself wondering if this side of the ripeness spectrum has become a bit “all the same” — which was one of the correct criticisms of all the overripe and overextracted Cali Pinot out there. Certain producers seem to pick for low booze/brix, or at least their wines often come in at very low labeled alcohol. These wines tend to taste like “low alcohol, high acid, whole cluster” Pinot or Syrah rather than Pinot or Syrah from any particular place.
One that comes to mind is the Wind Gap and Wilde Farm wines I have had. I do like these wines in general, btw. Another that I actually really enjoy is Drew. The Pinot tastes more like Drew than any particular vineyard.
Please educate me otherwise and no intent here to “call out” any wine/winemaker. Just personal observations.
Thanks for your post and your insights - quite interesting indeed. I have used the term ‘winemaker terroir’ in the past and many did not ‘see’ what I was talking about. I do believe that many vineyards CAN exhibit a sense of ‘place’ or however you want to define the loose concept of ‘terroir’. When winemakers pick underripe or overripe, or put that subsequent wine into a lot of new oak, to me, it ‘masks’ the unique characteristics of a sense of place and instead speaks of ‘winemaker intent’. There is nothing wrong with this whatsoever - different strokes for different folks for sure.
I am not a fan of ‘dogma’ in any aspect of life and believe a pragmatic approach is necessary to deal with variables that invariably exist. I am also not a fan of ‘judging folks’ for doing things differently than I do or other winemakers do. But if you taste through a series of wines from the same producer and they are more similar than they are different, even taking into account the possibility of several vineyard designate bottlings of the same variety, to me, and as I will repeat TO ME, something is not as it ‘should be’. I equate this to going into a Chinese restaurant and ordering 6 very different dishes - and 5 of the same taste the same.
I am ambivalent in this case. I quite like the Syrah as long as I remember to leave them upright for weeks and pour gently! It makes the appellation wines a better “value” in the end if the SV wines aren’t showing individuality…
I am somewhat confused by the OP’s post or maybe I am just not understanding it. It is hard for me to think of a wine where style outweighs place as being an AFWE wine. I think of one of, if not the, main tenants of an AFWE wine as being one that shows place. Does not mean other wines cannot be good, but do others think that wines that do not show place can be considered AFWE? By contrast, I don’t necessarily think of “low alcohol, high acid, whole cluster” as defining AFWE. I think of AFWE wines as wines that try to illustrate place. To me, they can be richer wines like certain Bandols, Barolos, etc. I am not sure what whole cluster has to do with this.
[I know that AFWE is a name sort of “invented” by Robert Parker and there really is no dictionary definition. But, it has come into common use, at least on this board. So, I am really asking how others use the term, not what is right or wrong as I cannot imagine there is right or wrong on a made up term.]
I think this applies on both sides of the pond. What people like to call “sense of place” has often only struck me as always picking at a certain point. Not shaping style to the vintage and vineyard. Not always certainly but it makes people focus narrowly on expression and markers.
As Larry mentions, that’s why the dogma always gets to me. There is some place in between aiming for low alcohol so you can appeal to certain people and using 100% new oak, picking at 32 brix to appeal to the others. Try to make the best wine possible given your source rather than finding common denominators in order to make a statement.
But to the the OP’s point, I don’t think Arcadian, Kutch, Rhys, Arnot Roberts, Anthill Farms etc. all taste like each other, at all, or that they reflect some sort of “all the low alcohol pinots taste the same” situation.
And among the SVDs and between vintages, those wines don’t all taste the same, either. Kutch pinots from one vineyard to the next and one vintage to the next are quite distinctive. If anything, it can be a bit frustrating knowing what to buy from what vintage because of it, but it comes with the territory of Jamie making wines that really reflect site and vintage.
Armor-Roberts and Pax 2.0 share a common flaw for me in that they now all just taste like blackberry battery acid, regardless of site. I used to love Wind Gap and Pax 2.0 (early) Syrahs, and then he went extreme.
David have you had the Arnot-Roberts Syrahs with age? I ask because a recent bottle of their 2019 Syrah was too bright for me (and had too much dissolved CO2), but it felt like it might have the ingredients to mellow into something I like. Like you, I like the earlier new-style Pax Syrahs but have been less enamoured of more recent offerings.
I have been on the list and drinking Arnot-Roberts since their second commercial vintage. I keep buying a few bottles here and there, but am close to giving up.
I’m not arguing that. What I’m arguing is that these folks are making decisions that make their wines particular to the source. They are not saying “lets make wines with alc% X because that is proper”.
And I would disagree on Anthill. They fall into the producers that I think make style first. Of which I’ve had many over the years from this state. Producers that is that make wines that are supposed to be ‘dialed back’ or ‘low alcohol’. Where all the wines are light bodied and “restrained” yet have next to no character. Many are board darlings that I find just ok and usually extremely overpriced.
I’ve had a different experience with Anthill but haven’t tasted a bunch together in a couple years. The last time I tasted there were 5 svd of Pinot and they were all quite unique. That seems in line with Knez where the Cerise and Demuth were and still are very different animals.
Battery acid indeed. Too many natural wines make me think of that . Perhaps the dogma needs to be run over by the karma. On the other hand the terroir is pretty limited. There’s Napa…….Duralast, Diehard……….others? (Pax is usually better and shouldn’t be lumped in this).
Perhaps this deserves its own thread, but this thread makes me think of those who have a distinct style AND demonstrate site characteristics. The first that comes to mind is Ridge, with a pretty consistent style but wines that show the site character over the long haul like Geyserville, Pagani, and Lytton Springs. WA syrah such as Betz, Va Piano, Sleight of Hand also have a pretty consistent house style but do a great job of showing off site differences.
Okay, I was wondering if it was just me. I’ve been disappointed by every wine I’ve had from them - just not my style. To me, the 2017 Kirschenmann Zin was undrinkable. But, to each their own.
My question was more to get your take on what they are like with age because I haven’t had them except very young and am interested in your opinion on their ageing potential.