California’s great old vine Zinfandel vineyards

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Re: California’s great old vine Zinfandel vineyards

#551 Post by Vince T »

Chris and Morgan put out a 3-hour, 2-part podcast interviewing Will Bucklin of Old Hill this week. Well worth a listen!

Edit: This is the Bedrock Wine Conversations podcast
Last edited by Vince T on April 6th, 2021, 7:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: California’s great old vine Zinfandel vineyards

#552 Post by ClydeUnderwood »

Brian Tuite wrote: April 5th, 2021, 5:28 am
Drew Goin wrote: April 5th, 2021, 1:24 am
Drew Goin wrote: February 5th, 2021, 1:29 am
Can YOU name the other 6 old-vine Zinfandel plantings in the Wood Road area?
Brian Tuite wrote: February 20th, 2021, 5:36 am

Then you might as well add Martinelli right? I think that’s a completely different area up on a knoll from Wood Rd. Maybe Drew can chime in.

I posted the question semi-jokingly (referencing the Williams-Selyem video in my post). Mr Mangahas states, in his introduction of the "Fannuchi-Wood Rd Vineyard" Zin, that there are six other old Zinfandel plantings around Wood Rd.

In the video, he never actually names the vineyards that he specifically had in mind. Thus, know-it-all Drew began to compile a mental roster of at least 9 other vineyards (moving South from Wood Rd towards Guerneville Rd). I failed to really listen carefully to the qualifiers in his original statement.
pileon

Thus I presumed that other enthusiasts would end up tallying half of the old Zin plantings in the RRV if left unchecked. Sorry for leaving y'all hanging...


Here's the full context of Mr Mangahas' count:

· There are "6 other really famous vineyards" ON Wood Rd (turning right off of Fulton Rd, if heading South from Fulton, CA, past River Rd);

· Mr Mangahas made wine from 4 of the other sites while employed as winemaker at Hartford.


So...excluding "Fannucchi-Wood Road" from the count, there are 6 really famous old vineyards on Wood Road.
Then the other is Highwire. My brain kept telling me that it was in Piner as part of Papera but it’s really on Wood Rd as a former part of Chelli/Fannuchi which run in succession. I was confusing it with Hartford Vineyard.
Aren't Chelli and Highwire the same vineyard?
https://www.hartfordwines.com/vineyard/ ... e-vineyard
Likewise aren't Arata and Dina's the same vineyard?
https://www.hartfordwines.com/vineyard/dinas-vineyard

So, as you go west on Wood Rd from Fulton Rd, to the north you encounter Arata/Dina's, Chelli/Highwire, Belloni, then Hartford.

On the south side of the road, across from Belloni is Rue (now called Croix estate vineyard), then as you continue west, Fanucchi (which is partly across the road from Hartford).

Excluding Fanucchi, that's still only 5 vineyards. What am I missing?

Hartford has made wine from Arata/Dina's, Chelli/Highwire, Hartford and Fanucchi. The other 2 (that they haven't made wine from afaik) are Rue/Croix and Belloni.
Last edited by ClydeUnderwood on April 6th, 2021, 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: California’s great old vine Zinfandel vineyards

#553 Post by Brian Tuite »

Fanucchi - Belloni, Tomato - Tomahto, I’ve toured the damn places and still can’t get it right.
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Re: California’s great old vine Zinfandel vineyards

#554 Post by ClydeUnderwood »

Arata/Dina's, Chelli/Highwire, Belloni and Rue/Croix were supposedly all one vineyard originally.

Hartford has a habit of giving their own names to vineyard bottlings. They call their bottling of the Maffei vineyard Jolene's vineyard, after the owners Joanne and Arlene Maffei.

Others who make it just call it Maffei. This vineyard is on the west side of Olivet Rd about 1000' north of the Saitone vineyard.


Drew, if you're reading this check out this abandoned vineyard northwest of the Maffei vineyard:
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.4777759 ... a=!3m1!1e3

The street address appears to be 2101 Oakwild Ln:
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.4770499 ... 384!8i8192

This is south of St. Francis' Giovanetti vineyard.

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Re: California’s great old vine Zinfandel vineyards

#555 Post by Brian Tuite »

St Francis buys their fruit but the Vineyard is definitely owned by the Giovanetti’s Chuck being a friend of mine.
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Re: California’s great old vine Zinfandel vineyards

#556 Post by ClydeUnderwood »

Brian Tuite wrote: April 6th, 2021, 1:13 pm St Francis buys their fruit but the Vineyard is definitely owned by the Giovanetti’s Chuck being a friend of mine.
Right, that's what I meant, and it's their flagship zin.

Next time you see him, please ask him if he knows what's up with the abandoned vineyard.

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Re: California’s great old vine Zinfandel vineyards

#557 Post by Drew Goin »

Perhaps there is an error in Mr Mahangas' recollection (although I find that highly unlikely).

Is there a famous non-Zinfandel vineyard on Wood Rd?

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Re: California’s great old vine Zinfandel vineyards

#558 Post by Drew Goin »

ClydeUnderwood wrote: April 6th, 2021, 12:32 pm
...Drew, if you're reading this check out this abandoned vineyard northwest of the Maffei vineyard:
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.4777759 ... a=!3m1!1e3

The street address appears to be 2101 Oakwild Ln:
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.4770499 ... 384!8i8192

This is south of St. Francis' Giovanetti vineyard.
Do you mean this parcel...?

mapImg (1).png

Parcel Details below in Spoiler
Click to see spoiler:
Sonoma Assessors Office
APN# 057-040-011-000

2220 OAKWILD LN SANTA ROSA CA 95401-3857
This plot has virtually no information available online to indicate its use in grape-growing. It is privately owned.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

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Re: California’s great old vine Zinfandel vineyards

#559 Post by Brian Tuite »

Drew Goin wrote: April 6th, 2021, 5:54 pm Perhaps there is an error in Mr Mahangas' recollection (although I find that highly unlikely).

Is there a famous non-Zinfandel vineyard on Wood Rd?
Wood Rd is only a mile and a half long and the last 1/2 of it is rural residential. All the vineyards are on the first 3/4 mile straightaway.
Last edited by Brian Tuite on April 7th, 2021, 6:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: California’s great old vine Zinfandel vineyards

#560 Post by Brian Tuite »

Robert Rue!
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Re: California’s great old vine Zinfandel vineyards

#561 Post by Brian Tuite »

ClydeUnderwood wrote: April 6th, 2021, 1:20 pm
Brian Tuite wrote: April 6th, 2021, 1:13 pm St Francis buys their fruit but the Vineyard is definitely owned by the Giovanetti’s Chuck being a friend of mine.
Right, that's what I meant, and it's their flagship zin.

Next time you see him, please ask him if he knows what's up with the abandoned vineyard.
He said that’s Krists Vineyard. Old Zin mix he thinks.
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Re: California’s great old vine Zinfandel vineyards

#562 Post by Drew Goin »

Brian Tuite wrote: September 7th, 2010, 10:19 am Updated:
Latest version (9/7/10):

101 Vineyard Alexander 1930s Turley
Aldo's Napa 1937 Biale
Alegria Vineyards RRV 1890 Ridge, Stryker, Acorn
Alexander Valley Road Alexander 1923 Turley
Amy's RRV 1910 Ledson
Angeli Ranch Alexander Porter Creek, Marietta
Aparicio Amador 1934 Rosenblum
Bacchi Ranch RRV 1909
...
Zichichi DCV 1940s Zichichi

_________________
Cheers,

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I was curious about this particular vineyard because of its unusual moniker. If I'd looked more carefully at which producer had bottled an "Amy's Vineyard" Zinfandel, I honestly would have stopped immediately.

Ledson has always adopted proprietary designations for its single-vineyard wines. This can make it hard to determine the source of the fruit. Fortunately, the Google machine was feeling generous today...


According to a blog post from the head of Ledson Winery and Vineyards, the "Amy" in question is his wife. He decided to commemorate their first date by creating a Russian River Valley Zinfandel that reflected her tastes.


Steve Ledson - Living Life to Its Fullest blog
"The Story of Amy's Vineyard"

by Steve Ledson
April 10, 2012

"...I headed over to an old vineyard that used to belong to a dear friend of my fathers, Ernie Bacigalupi. Ernie had planted this vineyard some sixty years ago and had sold it to Tom Fenney, and I’d been leasing it from him for some time. I was always excited about this one block that sat on top of the knoll overlooking the beautiful Russian River Valley.

"...I have extreme passion not only for my wife, but for the wine we’ve produced from Amy’s vineyard over the years. Back in 2004, we started keeping this one block as a separate lot, and Amy and I have made some incredible Zins from it ever since...".


So, "Amy's Vineyard" is/was an older Zinfandel plot originally planted by Ernie Bacigalupi, but leased by Ledson Cellars from the Feeney family. Whether the vineyard still exists in 2021, where it is located, and who owns it remain a mystery.

Although the Ledson website states that the winery owns, "...11 acres of 100-year-old Zinfandel planted in Sonoma County’s Russian River Valley," the "Amy's Vineyard" property is clearly identified in the above blog post to be closer to 70-years-old at this point in time.

A Wine and Spirits article (mentioned in this thread), written after Tom Feeney's passing, stated that Feeney bought up several old-vine plots in the Laguna de Santa Rosa sub-region of the Russian River Valley. When land prices boomed and Pinot Noir vines were being planted left and right, it became profitable for his nephew Mike to sell off some of the ancient vineyards.

I do not know where to find "Amy's Vineyard", as the RRV covers an expansive portion of Sonoma County.

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Re: California’s great old vine Zinfandel vineyards

#563 Post by Brian Tuite »

Drew Goin wrote: April 8th, 2021, 5:15 pm
Brian Tuite wrote: September 7th, 2010, 10:19 am Updated:
Latest version (9/7/10):

101 Vineyard Alexander 1930s Turley
Aldo's Napa 1937 Biale
Alegria Vineyards RRV 1890 Ridge, Stryker, Acorn
Alexander Valley Road Alexander 1923 Turley
Amy's RRV 1910 Ledson
Angeli Ranch Alexander Porter Creek, Marietta
Aparicio Amador 1934 Rosenblum
Bacchi Ranch RRV 1909
...
Zichichi DCV 1940s Zichichi

_________________
Cheers,

Brian

I was curious about this particular vineyard because of its unusual moniker. If I'd looked more carefully at which producer had bottled an "Amy's Vineyard" Zinfandel, I honestly would have stopped immediately.

Ledson has always adopted proprietary designations for its single-vineyard wines. This can make it hard to determine the source of the fruit. Fortunately, the Google machine was feeling generous today...


According to a blog post from the head of Ledson Winery and Vineyards, the "Amy" in question is his wife. He decided to commemorate their first date by creating a Russian River Valley Zinfandel that reflected her tastes.


Steve Ledson - Living Life to Its Fullest blog
"The Story of Amy's Vineyard"

by Steve Ledson
April 10, 2012

"...I headed over to an old vineyard that used to belong to a dear friend of my fathers, Ernie Bacigalupi. Ernie had planted this vineyard some sixty years ago and had sold it to Tom Fenney, and I’d been leasing it from him for some time. I was always excited about this one block that sat on top of the knoll overlooking the beautiful Russian River Valley.

"...I have extreme passion not only for my wife, but for the wine we’ve produced from Amy’s vineyard over the years. Back in 2004, we started keeping this one block as a separate lot, and Amy and I have made some incredible Zins from it ever since...".


So, "Amy's Vineyard" is/was an older Zinfandel plot originally planted by Ernie Bacigalupi, but leased by Ledson Cellars from the Feeney family. Whether the vineyard still exists in 2021, where it is located, and who owns it remain a mystery.

Although the Ledson website states that the winery owns, "...11 acres of 100-year-old Zinfandel planted in Sonoma County’s Russian River Valley," the "Amy's Vineyard" property is clearly identified in the above blog post to be closer to 70-years-old at this point in time.

A Wine and Spirits article (mentioned in this thread), written after Tom Feeney's passing, stated that Feeney bought up several old-vine plots in the Laguna de Santa Rosa sub-region of the Russian River Valley. When land prices boomed and Pinot Noir vines were being planted left and right, it became profitable for his nephew Mike to sell off some of the ancient vineyards.

I do not know where to find "Amy's Vineyard", as the RRV covers an expansive portion of Sonoma County.
Steve Ledson bought this gorgeous head pruned old vine property on the corner of River Rd and Bisordi Lane. He then proceeded to cut back all the arms on the vines and ran wires in an attempt to trellis train the vines so they would produces more fruit which in turn would increase the value of the property for resale. After about 4 years the vines still would not conform so they were ripped out and a new homogenized vineyard was planted in their place. The property has changed hands again.

I remember when the place went up for sale the first time. I was driving by one morning and the owner old timer was walking the rows looking almost like he was saying good-bye to his kids.

Really sad to see what became of this place.

Now you know... the REST of the story.

0CD4295F-C235-4014-A78C-2518AB487C18.jpeg
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Re: California’s great old vine Zinfandel vineyards

#564 Post by ClydeUnderwood »

Drew Goin wrote: April 6th, 2021, 6:03 pm
ClydeUnderwood wrote: April 6th, 2021, 12:32 pm
...Drew, if you're reading this check out this abandoned vineyard northwest of the Maffei vineyard:
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.4777759 ... a=!3m1!1e3

The street address appears to be 2101 Oakwild Ln:
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.4770499 ... 384!8i8192

This is south of St. Francis' Giovanetti vineyard.
Do you mean this parcel...?


mapImg (1).png


Parcel Details below in Spoiler
Click to see spoiler:
Sonoma Assessors Office
APN# 057-040-011-000

2220 OAKWILD LN SANTA ROSA CA 95401-3857
This plot has virtually no information available online to indicate its use in grape-growing. It is privately owned.
Yes, that's the parcel I meant.

Regarding Tom Feeney vineyards, at one time he owned the Montafi vineyard. Carlisle made at least a couple of bottlings of it (2004 & 2005) labeled as Tom Feeney Ranch, but in 2006 began labeling it as Montafi.
https://www.carlislewinery.com/montafi
The Montafi vineyard is owned by Seghesio and is on Piner Rd, NW of the intersection of Piner and Bossa. Feeney was also involved with the Papera and Barbieri vineyards. Thanks to Mike Officer, Papera was saved. North of Montafi, at the end of Bossa Rd lies a house in the middle of what was once the Vera Gold vineyard. It was scraped away to create a vernal pool "bank" to be purchased for credits by developers remediating salamander habitat removal in other more buildable parcels. Seghesio made a Vera Gold zin which is how they knew about Montafi. Everyvine still shows the Vera Gold vineyard north of Montafi (still labeled Tom Feeney).

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Re: California’s great old vine Zinfandel vineyards

#565 Post by Brian Tuite »

ClydeUnderwood wrote: April 8th, 2021, 11:49 pm
Drew Goin wrote: April 6th, 2021, 6:03 pm
ClydeUnderwood wrote: April 6th, 2021, 12:32 pm
...Drew, if you're reading this check out this abandoned vineyard northwest of the Maffei vineyard:
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.4777759 ... a=!3m1!1e3

The street address appears to be 2101 Oakwild Ln:
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.4770499 ... 384!8i8192

This is south of St. Francis' Giovanetti vineyard.
Do you mean this parcel...?


mapImg (1).png


Parcel Details below in Spoiler
Click to see spoiler:
Sonoma Assessors Office
APN# 057-040-011-000

2220 OAKWILD LN SANTA ROSA CA 95401-3857
This plot has virtually no information available online to indicate its use in grape-growing. It is privately owned.
Yes, that's the parcel I meant.

Regarding Tom Feeney vineyards, at one time he owned the Montafi vineyard. Carlisle made at least a couple of bottlings of it (2004 & 2005) labeled as Tom Feeney Ranch, but in 2006 began labeling it as Montafi.
https://www.carlislewinery.com/montafi
The Montafi vineyard is owned by Seghesio and is on Piner Rd, NW of the intersection of Piner and Bossa. Feeney was also involved with the Papera and Barbieri vineyards. Thanks to Mike Officer, Papera was saved. North of Montafi, at the end of Bossa Rd lies a house in the middle of what was once the Vera Gold vineyard. It was scraped away to create a vernal pool "bank" to be purchased for credits by developers remediating salamander habitat removal in other more buildable parcels. Seghesio made a Vera Gold zin which is how they knew about Montafi. Everyvine still shows the Vera Gold vineyard north of Montafi (still labeled Tom Feeney).
The Ledson purchased property mentioned earlier was a former Tom Feeney holding.
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Re: California’s great old vine Zinfandel vineyards

#566 Post by Drew Goin »

Thank you for the help identifying lost RRV Zinfandel sites!


I believe that the adoption of "Tom Feeney Ranch" by wineries in the early-to-mid-2000's was a way to circumvent potential legal issues with DeLoach Cellars over the use of proprietary vineyard names. Later, presumably after the sale of DeLoach, several property owners and wineries gained the ability to sell wines with "Papera", "Montafi", etc, on the labels.

While I am still looking for where he said it, I recently read a comment by Mr Stuart Coulson, owner of the "Papera Ranch", that reinforces my thoughts. essentiallysen stated that he had to gain legal rights to call his property "Papera" after years of its use being sole privilege of a certain company.


Mr Mike Officer labeled his earlier single-vineyard releases from the "Montafi Vineyard" as "Tom Feeney Ranch". As the Carlisle website profile for "Montafi" states:

"...Planted in 1926, we originally designated our zinfandel from this ranch as 'Tom Feeney Ranch', as Tom purchased this ranch from the Bernardo Montafi in 1999. But with a new owner in 2006, we have returned to calling this vineyard by its proper name, Montafi Ranch."


The old Starry Night winery lists a "Tom Feeney Ranch" 2006 Zinfandel. This is part of the description:

"2006 Starry Night 'Tom Feeney Ranch' Russian River Valley Zinfandel

"This Old Vine Zinfandel comes from four vineyards on 'Tom Feeney Ranch'. The 'Montafi' and 'Baldacci' Vineyards were planted in the early part of the last century, 'Piner Vineyard' was planted in the mid -1940s, 'Barbieri Vineyard' in 1928 and 'Papera Vineyard' in 1934...".


From a "Wine Spies" interview with Wayne Hansen, the winemaker for Starry Night, promoting the 2006 vintage Starry Night "Tom Feeney Ranch" Zinfandel:

"...WAYNE: This is the last vintage of the 'Tom Feeney Ranch' Old Vine Zinfandel. We have made this wine every year from 1997 until 2006. It has been our flagship wine. After Tom’s death, the vineyard was sold in 2006 and all but one small plot of zinfandel was replanted with Pinot Noir grapes. These were historical vineyards that should have been preserved and their loss was mourned by all of us who knew and loved the wine that came from those gnarly old vines."

"...Composition: 17% Piner Road Vineyard Zinfandel, 7% Montafi Vineyard Zinfandel, 16% Barbieri Vineyard Zinfandel, 30% Papera Vineyard Zinfandel, 30% Baldacci Vineyard"


Here is a description of the "Tom Feeney Ranch", provided by Sol Rouge Vineyards and Winery in another Wine Spies promotion from the past, Sol Rouge's 2006 "Tom Feeney Ranch" Zinfandel:

"...The Vineyards:
"'Tom Feeney Ranch' contains the most sought after old-vine Zinfandel in all of California. We were very fortunate to be able to secure grapes from several of the vineyards from this famed ranch. We bottled a blend of the various vineyards which we are releasing under the 'Tom Feeney Ranch' name, but we kept aside a small amount of three of the most unique vineyards from this ranch, the 'Papera', the 'Barbieri', and the 'Piner', for our Club members.

"Zinfandel enthusiasts may recall the 'Barbieri' and 'Papera' vineyards, two of the top single vineyard Zinfandel’s from the old DeLoach label, both planted in the 1930s. Tom purchased these Zinfandel vineyards from De Loach in the late 90’s, adding to his old vine estate which contain the 'Piner', 'River' and 'Montavi' [sic] vineyards."


If I am wrong in any of this post, I apologize.

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Re: California’s great old vine Zinfandel vineyards

#567 Post by ClydeUnderwood »

The original De Loach zinfandel bottlings were: Papera Ranch, Pelletti Ranch, Gambogi Ranch, Saitone Ranch and Barbieri Ranch.

Cecil De Loach apparently trademarked the names so Mike Officer decided to name his (newly purchased) Pelletti Ranch vineyard the Carlisle vineyard after his wife Kendall's maiden name, rather than purchase the trademark rights. Cecil managed to hang onto the Gambogi vineyard after the 2003 bankruptcy. I believe it is located near the Carlisle vineyard on the north side of Henry Ln east of Willowside Rd. Hook and Ladder (the De Loach family) winery has made a Gambogi zin in the recent past, but there's no evidence of the vineyard on the current website.

The Barbieri vineyard (which was torn out and replanted to pinot) was on the east side of Olivet Rd across from the Saitone vineyard (NW of corner of Olivet and West Olivet Rds). Adam Lee told me the Barbieri was heavily virused from years of neglect. Ironically Siduri makes a Barbieri pinot now (after the vineyard came into the JFW orbit).

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Re: California’s great old vine Zinfandel vineyards

#568 Post by Drew Goin »

ClydeUnderwood wrote: April 9th, 2021, 12:54 pm The original De Loach zinfandel bottlings were: Papera Ranch, Pelletti Ranch, Gambogi Ranch, Saitone Ranch and Barbieri Ranch.

Cecil De Loach apparently trademarked the names so Mike Officer decided to name his (newly purchased) Pelletti Ranch vineyard the Carlisle vineyard after his wife Kendall's maiden name, rather than purchase the trademark rights. Cecil managed to hang onto the Gambogi vineyard after the 2003 bankruptcy. I believe it is located near the Carlisle vineyard on the north side of Henry Ln east of Willowside Rd. Hook and Ladder (the De Loach family) winery has made a Gambogi zin in the recent past, but there's no evidence of the vineyard on the current website.

"...Cecil DeLoach bought or leased...Papera, Barbieri, Pelletti, and Gambogi vineyard Zins were true cult wines, producing tiny quantities and tasted and discussed by an equally miniscule company of Zin fanatics. In the turmoil leading up to the sale of DeLoach in 2003, those vineyards were divested or changed hands (except for Gambogi, which is still owned by Cecil DeLoach)...

"Grower Tom Feeney knew an opportunity when he saw one. His family's blocks of old Zin vines - the former Montafi and Bacigalupi vineyards - had been saved from chardonnization by DeLoach's successful white Zin program. Now, he astutely snapped up the Papera and Barbieri vineyards...".

- from "Raiders of the Lost Zin" by Rod Smith
Wine & Spirits, October 2004



I want to say that the Gambogi Vineyard still exists. I cannot believe that someone who played a prominent role in saving old Zinfandel vineyards, who obviously saw the value in struggling plantings that bore tiny yields, would turn around and replant his only remaining treasure.

I wonder whether the "Bacigalupi Vineyard" mentioned in the above article is still around. I believe that there used to be more than one Zin vineyard bearing that designation. Would this contradict Mike's assertion that "Amy's Vineyard" was ripped up?

ClydeUnderwood wrote: April 9th, 2021, 12:54 pm The Barbieri vineyard (which was torn out and replanted to pinot) was on the east side of Olivet Rd across from the Saitone vineyard (NW of corner of Olivet and West Olivet Rds). Adam Lee told me the Barbieri was heavily virused from years of neglect. Ironically Siduri makes a Barbieri pinot now (after the vineyard came into the JFW orbit).
The wines made from the new Pinot Noir vines bear the same name as the vineyard they replaced??

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Re: California’s great old vine Zinfandel vineyards

#569 Post by ClydeUnderwood »

I think the reason Hook & Ladder doesn't list the Gambogi vineyard may be that it's a tasting room only wine, but it's very odd that there's no mention of the vineyard on the website. There is a bottle shot of the 2018 H&L Gambogi on CT.

Drew I believe you're right about there being more than 1 Bacigalupi vineyard in RRV. There's the obvious one(s) near the Bacigalupi tasting room up on Westside Rd near Healdsburg, but I recall there's a Bacigalupi Rd that goes north up from Piner Rd just west of the Montafi vineyard. Everyvine shows all the vineyards near there (including Montafi) as Tom Feeney Ranch. Except for Montafi "Tom Feeney Ranch [5]" these all appear to be modern trellised vineyards from the satellite images. If you click on one of the Tom Feeney Ranch blocks on everyvine (for example Montafi) it will bring up a map showing all the Tom Feeney vineyards which is interesting. It shows several Tom Feeney blocks to the west of the Montafi vineyard (basically surrounding Bacigalupi Rd), a block NE of the Saitone vineyard on Olivet Rd (which was probably Barbieri) as well as two separate blocks north of River Rd. One east of Martinelli and the other just west of Fulton (the same one that Brian showed further up in the thread).

Interestingly, satellite imagery does show a head trained block just west of the Tom Feeney blocks on the north side of Piner Rd. It's at 2925 Piner Rd, NW of Battagalini Winery (which also has quite a few OV blocks itself, on the south side of Piner Rd). It's not labeled on everyvine.

And yes, Siduri labels their Barbieri pinot as such:
https://www.siduri.com/wines/barbieri-v ... pinot-noir
I've had it and it's actually pretty good.


Everyvine is pathetically out of date, but in this case that's an advantage.

This is a good recap:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cecil_O._De_Loach_Jr.

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Re: California’s great old vine Zinfandel vineyards

#570 Post by Drew Goin »

Brian Tuite wrote: April 6th, 2021, 6:09 pm
Drew Goin wrote: April 6th, 2021, 5:54 pm Perhaps there is an error in Mr Mahangas' recollection (although I find that highly unlikely).

Is there a famous non-Zinfandel vineyard on Wood Rd?
Wood Rd is only a mile and a half long and the last 1/2 of it is rural residential. All the vineyards are on the first 3/4 mile straightaway.

I wish that I had recalled the existence of the following thread earlier:

"Wood Road RRV Zin Vineyards?"
posted September 6, 2016, by me


Mr Morgan Twain-Peterson of Bedrock Wine Co. swooped in to provide assistance identifying the heritage Zinfandel vineyards in the vicinity of Wood Road.


Mr Brian Maloney of DeLoach and Buena Vista helped identify which wineries were sourcing grapes from specific sites. He also related news of the purchase of the "Robert Rue Vineyard" (now the Croix Estate vineyard) by Venge Vineyards.

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Re: California’s great old vine Zinfandel vineyards

#571 Post by Drew Goin »

ClydeUnderwood wrote: April 9th, 2021, 5:42 pm
I think the reason Hook & Ladder doesn't list the Gambogi vineyard may be that it's a tasting room only wine, but it's very odd that there's no mention of the vineyard on the website.

According to a distribution company website, the Hook and Ladder's Zinfandel is composed of grapes from the "Gambogi Vineyard", along with components from (at least) one other Piner-Olivet site:

"...Virtually all (95%) of this Zin is made from vines over 100 years old on our Saitone and Gambogi vineyards, planted in 1895 and 1909, respectively."

Why on earth would a winery whose owner established his reputation on single-vineyard old Zinfandel bottlings omit any mention of the fruit sources on the label?

ClydeUnderwood wrote: April 9th, 2021, 5:42 pm
Everyvine is pathetically out of date, but in this case that's an advantage.

For over a year, I was unable to view the map on Everyvine. Whether the fault rested with my cellphone or the website remains a mystery. However, after you posted the above comment, I finally managed to access the Everyvine satellite maps.

Yes, the info is often out of date (or simply just downright wrong). Nevertheless, I used to spend considerable amounts of time playing around on the site.

I enjoy identifying the changes in regional vineyard maps over the passage of time. You know how big of a nerd I am about maps!!

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Re: California’s great old vine Zinfandel vineyards

#572 Post by Brian Tuite »

Drew Goin wrote: April 15th, 2021, 1:47 pm
Brian Tuite wrote: April 6th, 2021, 6:09 pm
Drew Goin wrote: April 6th, 2021, 5:54 pm Perhaps there is an error in Mr Mahangas' recollection (although I find that highly unlikely).

Is there a famous non-Zinfandel vineyard on Wood Rd?
Wood Rd is only a mile and a half long and the last 1/2 of it is rural residential. All the vineyards are on the first 3/4 mile straightaway.

I wish that I had recalled the existence of the following thread earlier:

"Wood Road RRV Zin Vineyards?"
posted September 6, 2016, by me


Mr Morgan Twain-Peterson of Bedrock Wine Co. swooped in to provide assistance identifying the heritage Zinfandel vineyards in the vicinity of Wood Road.


Mr Brian Maloney of DeLoach and Buena Vista helped identify which wineries were sourcing grapes from specific sites. He also related news of the purchase of the "Robert Rue Vineyard" (now the Croix Estate vineyard) by Venge Vineyards.
I was just on Wood Rd yesterday as my tax lady lives across the street from Highwire. I was checking the vineyards as we drove down the road... Belloni, Fanucchi, Criox Estate? Chelli, Highwire...
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Re: California’s great old vine Zinfandel vineyards

#573 Post by ClydeUnderwood »

ClydeUnderwood wrote: February 19th, 2021, 1:18 am
Drew Goin wrote: December 27th, 2020, 12:30 pm The "Casa Santinamaria Vineyard" is once again a single-vineyard designated Zinfandel bottling for Random Ridge. This winery kinda fell off the map for a few years, and I was honestly surprised to see a relatively new vintage being offered.

Random Ridge 2017 "Old Wave":

"Italian-style field blend Zinfandel with small amounts of Petite Syrah. 100+ year old vines from the legendary Casa Santamaria vineyard on the western edge of the Sonoma Valley at the base of Sonoma Mountain. The vines are head-trained and dry-farmed. The wine is spicy, lush, and fruit-forward, with delicious notes of cherry, framboise, white pepper, and vanilla."

"Casa Santinamaria" (aka "Maggie's Vineyard"), is located just on the western boundary of Sonoma township (corner of Boyes & Arnold). It has an unusual proportion of white varieties, interspersed with Zinfandel, Carignan, PS, and a few other red grapes.

Historic Vineyard Society profile: "Casa Santinamaria"

Random Ridge website:
https://www.randomridge.com
Rock Wall (Shauna Rosenblum) is making a 2018 Maggie's reserve:
https://rockwallwines.com/wp-content/up ... aggies.pdf
Carol Shelton made a 2018 Maggie's also:
https://www.carolshelton.com/media/1421 ... hsheet.pdf

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Re: California’s great old vine Zinfandel vineyards

#574 Post by ClydeUnderwood »

This is what I believe to be the Wood Road OV zin vineyards of RRV:
RRV_Wood_Road_2.jpg
A1-A3: Arata/Dina's
B1-B2: Belloni
C1-C6: Chelli/Highwire
R1: Rue/Croix
F1: Fanucchi
H1-H4: Hartford

Everyvine does not identify C6, A1 or A2 and curiously shows A3 as part of Chelli/Highwire composed of Leon Millot vines. I believe C6 is part of Chelli/Highwire since the vines are trained up identically as they are in C5. I believe A3 is part of Arata/Dina's since there are lot of misses in it, similar to A1 and A2. You can clearly see A1 and A2 (as well as A3 I believe) here: https://www.hartfordwines.com/vineyard/dinas-vineyard.

You can see Chelli/Highwire here: https://www.hartfordwines.com/vineyard/ ... e-vineyard

You can see Fanucchi here: https://www.hartfordwines.com/vineyard/ ... d-vineyard

You can see Hartford here: https://www.hartfordwines.com/vineyard/ ... d-vineyard
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Re: California’s great old vine Zinfandel vineyards

#575 Post by Drew Goin »

ClydeUnderwood wrote: April 21st, 2021, 12:15 am This is what I believe to be the Wood Road OV zin vineyards of RRV:

Arata/Dina's
Belloni
Chelli/Highwire
Rue/Croix
Fanucchi
Hartford

...Everyvine does not identify C6, A1 or A2 and curiously shows A3 as part of Chelli/Highwire composed of Leon Millot* vines.
Amazing job, Clyde!!! [cheers.gif]

You always come through with regional knowledge of vineyard geography and cool map stuff!


I struggle to understand how EveryVine can post incorrect data; the criteria for submitting information to the website appears to be stringent.

In the past, I attempted to share legitimate data with the site's folks, only to get shot down.


* "Léon Millot": are you talking about this grape variety?

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Google Earth Timelapse for Viewing Vineyard Changes

#576 Post by Drew Goin »

Drew Goin wrote: April 15th, 2021, 2:23 pm
...I enjoy identifying the changes in regional vineyard maps over the passage of time. You know how big of a nerd I am about maps!!

If anybody has the Google Earth app downloaded on a computer, there is a newer function that expands the ability to view a specific region over time.

Google Earth already features a "timeline" scale that provides aerial/satellite images from different years for most locations. I suppose the new Timelapse expansion not only streamlines this ability, but enhances its applications.

While developed as a means of highlighting humanity's impact on the environment, Timelapse surely could allow wine map nerds to observe (and share) changes experienced by specific grape-growing sites.


Google Blog
"Time Flies in Google Earth’s Biggest Update in Years"

by Rebecca Moore
Director, Google Earth, Earth Engine & Outreach
April 15, 2021

"...In the biggest update to Google Earth since 2017, you can now see our planet in an entirely new dimension — time. With Timelapse in Google Earth, 24 million satellite photos from the past 37 years have been compiled into an interactive 4D experience. Now anyone can watch time unfold and witness nearly four decades of planetary change.

"...To explore Timelapse in Google Earth, go to g.co/Timelapse — you can use the handy search bar to choose any place on the planet where you want to see time in motion.

"Or open Google Earth and click on the ship’s wheel to find Timelapse in our storytelling platform, Voyager, to see interactive guided tours. We’ve also uploaded more than 800 Timelapse videos in both 2D and 3D for public use at g.co/TimelapseVideos. You can select any video you want as a ready-to-use MP4 video or sit back and watch the videos on YouTube. From governments and researchers to publishers, teachers and advocates, we’re excited to see how people will use Timelapse in Google Earth to shine a light on our planet...".

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Re: California’s great old vine Zinfandel vineyards

#577 Post by ClydeUnderwood »

Everyvine's map function didn't work at all about a year or two ago and then it started working again, but without some of the really small vineyard details that I remember seeing years ago.

I dunno how stringent the requirements are to enter data. I remember correcting stuff and adding stuff years ago and anyone could do it (as long as you had an account I believe). It was like a wiki. Maybe they've restricted that. I haven't actually tried to modify anything on everyvine in years.

There's some info that is spot on and obviously entered by vineyard owners and other info that's incorrect.

Regarding Leon Millot, it's pretty hard to believe that that block (A3 in my map) of the Arata/Dina's vineyard is actually planted to that. Maybe I'll send Hartford a query about that. If they say its just another field blend of zin and mixed blacks, that'd make a good test case to see if I can correct it on everyvine.

Btw, I just "re"-discovered my source for a lot of RRV vineyard info: a large and very detailed Sonoma County Grape growers association wall map for the RRV ava from circa 1998. I'll take a picture of the Piner-Olivet area on it and upload it to this thread when I get a chance. It shows the (now abandoned) Krist vineyard north of Pellegrini that Brian mentioned that he asked his Giovanetti friend about (and it is labeled as Krist on the map). Curiously the Giovanetti vineyard just above it is not shown. This map is a fascinating snapshot in time as it shows the Carlisle vineyard as "De Loach Pelletti", but also shows many Feeney vineyards. It also shows the exact location of the Bacigalupi vineyard next to Piner Rd as well as the exact location of the De Loach Gambogi vineyard (pretty much where I thought it was on the other side of Willowside Rd NW of Pelletti/Carlisle).

I know I've sent you pictures of this map years ago via email. I believe the map's designers went on to create the Everyvine website years later.

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Re: California’s great old vine Zinfandel vineyards

#578 Post by ClydeUnderwood »

Here's a picture of the Piner-Olivet area of the map I mentioned. This is from 1998.
PXL_20210428_215736721.jpg
That area is about 4"x 5" on the map. The entire map is about 20" x 20".

It's interesting that it shows the Arata vineyard as including the block that I labeled as "C6" (eg. part of the Chelli vineyard) in the post that I made above recently that included the google satellite map for the RRV Wood Rd vineyards. So maybe it is part of the Arata vineyard. Another thing to ask Hartford about.
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Re: California’s great old vine Zinfandel vineyards

#579 Post by Drew Goin »

ClydeUnderwood wrote: April 28th, 2021, 1:06 am Everyvine's map function didn't work at all about a year or two ago and then it started working again, but without some of the really small vineyard details that I remember seeing years ago.

...There's some info that is spot on and obviously entered by vineyard owners and other info that's incorrect.
That would explain a lot. Thanks again! [berserker.gif]
ClydeUnderwood wrote: April 28th, 2021, 1:06 am Regarding Leon Millot, it's pretty hard to believe that that block (A3 in my map) of the Arata/Dina's vineyard is actually planted to that. Maybe I'll send Hartford a query about that. If they say its just another field blend of zin and mixed blacks, that'd make a good test case to see if I can correct it on everyvine.
It just doesn't make sense for an obscure grape variety to be scattered about in these Wood Road vineyards and never have been mentioned in winery bottle notes (to my recollection). Shoot, someone probably would have released a Léon Millot varietal wine by now.
ClydeUnderwood wrote: April 28th, 2021, 1:06 am Btw, I just "re"-discovered my source for a lot of RRV vineyard info: a large and very detailed Sonoma County Grape growers association wall map for the RRV ava from circa 1998...It shows the (now abandoned) Krist vineyard north of Pellegrini that Brian mentioned that he asked his Giovanetti friend about (and it is labeled as Krist on the map). Curiously the Giovanetti vineyard just above it is not shown.

...I know I've sent you pictures of this map years ago via email. I believe the map's designers went on to create the Everyvine website years later.
I still have several snapshots of your '98 SCGGA map. I might have mentioned previously my effort to secure copies of SCGGA's Sonoma County AVA vineyard maps for myself via the Library of Congress website.

I applied for reprints following the LoC site's protocols, but they insisted that I first had to gain permission from the Sonoma County Grape Growers Association. When I reached out to its current iteration, they had no idea what I was talking about. Dead end.

Afterwards, a Sonoma winemaker said that he'd get a map copy for me. That (unfortunately) never panned out.

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Re: California’s great old vine Zinfandel vineyards

#580 Post by ClydeUnderwood »

Yeah, Leon Millot is so obscure it sure seems whoever recorded that on everyvine did that intentionally. That can't have been a random mistake. I'll ask Hartford about it, along with asking them to clarify who (Chelli or Arata) owns that "C6" block next to Wood Rd.

I'm willing to take shots of other areas of the map if there's interest. The area around Limerick Lane is interesting (Ponzo, Collins, Bacchi, Foppiano). I also have the Sonoma ava 1998 map. Maybe I'll make a new thread for these so it's easier to find? There were 2007 circa maps also (which I have), but they're less interesting of course.

Being a map nerd and a wine nerd and living in the area makes for some fun excursions occasionally. It's interesting that very few RRV HVS vineyards have signage indicating that. Bacchi and Sodini on Limerick Lane are the only ones that come to mind at the moment.

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Re: California’s great old vine Zinfandel vineyards

#581 Post by Brian Tuite »

ClydeUnderwood wrote: April 28th, 2021, 6:19 pm
I'm willing to take shots of other areas of the map if there's interest.
Please do!
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Re: California’s great old vine Zinfandel vineyards

#582 Post by Drew Goin »

Brian Tuite wrote: April 28th, 2021, 10:31 pm
ClydeUnderwood wrote: April 28th, 2021, 6:19 pm
I'm willing to take shots of other areas of the map if there's interest.
Please do!
Motion seconded.

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Re: California’s great old vine Zinfandel vineyards

#583 Post by Sean Devaney »

FWIW Siduri did make at least one Leon Millot from Oregon grapes some years ago.

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Re: California’s great old vine Zinfandel vineyards

#584 Post by ClydeUnderwood »

Alright, I used a tripod this time. Here's the entire useful area of the 1998 SCGGA RRV AVA map.
SCGGA RRV AVA Map 1998 Full.jpg
Dunno why it rotates when you click on it. You can right click on it and save it then load it into any photo browser to zoom in and inspect it.
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Re: California’s great old vine Zinfandel vineyards

#585 Post by ClydeUnderwood »

Here's the Healdsburg area closer up from the 1998 map (sorry about the blue reflection).
SCGGA RRV AVA Map 1998 Healdsburg.jpg
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Re: California’s great old vine Zinfandel vineyards

#586 Post by ClydeUnderwood »

Here's the Piner-Olivet area closer up from the 1998 map:
SCGGA RRV AVA Map 1998 Piner-Olivet.jpg
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Re: California’s great old vine Zinfandel vineyards

#587 Post by ClydeUnderwood »

I've included this shot of the 1998 map which includes Santa Rosa. While not technically part of the RRV ava, it is interesting nontheless. It shows Turley's Zampatti vineyard as the "Chanate" vineyard. This area has it's own ava now, Fountaingrove. The 2017 Tubbs fire hammered the ava, but the fire was stopped in Hidden Valley, just north of the Zampatti vineyard (but not before wiping out hundreds of homes).
SCGGA RRV AVA Map 1998 Santa Rosa.jpg
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Re: California’s great old vine Zinfandel vineyards

#588 Post by ClydeUnderwood »

Finally, here's some 1998 map details around the perimeter that show it's formal name and who created it etc.
SCGGA RRV AVA Map 1998 Title.jpg
SCGGA RRV AVA Map 1998 Legend 1.jpg
SCGGA RRV AVA Map 1998 Legend 2.jpg
SCGGA RRV AVA Map 1998 Legend 3.jpg
SCGGA RRV AVA Map 1998 Legend 4.jpg
Here's a full view of the 1998 map including the index numbers and letters around the perimeter. This allows you to use the vineyard and winery legend to locate it on the map. If anyone needs a closer up view of some area on the map let me know and I'll try to oblige.
SCGGA RRV AVA Map 2007 Full Index view.jpg
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Re: California’s great old vine Zinfandel vineyards

#589 Post by ClydeUnderwood »

Here's the full SCGGA RRV AVA 2007 Map:
SCGGA RRV AVA Map 2007 Full .jpg
Turley's Zampatti (NE of Santa Rosa & shown as the "Chanate" vineyard on the 1998 version of the map) is no longer shown.

Sorry for the rotations when you click on these. You can right click them and save them then load them into any picture file browser to inspect them
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Re: California’s great old vine Zinfandel vineyards

#590 Post by ClydeUnderwood »

Here's the Healdsburg area from the 2007 version of the SCGGA RRV AVA Map:
SCGGA RRV AVA Map 2007 Healdsburg.jpg
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Re: California’s great old vine Zinfandel vineyards

#591 Post by ClydeUnderwood »

and the Piner-Olivet area from the 2007 version of the SCCGA RRV AVA Map:
SCGGA RRV AVA Map 2007 Piner-Olivet .jpg
A few of the changes from the 1998 to the 2007 version are:

- Saitone, Gambogi, Belloni & Bacigalupi (next to Piner Rd) still shown, but no longer labeled.
- De Loach Papera now shown as Tom Feeney, as is Montafi.
- DeLoach Peletti now shown as Carlisle
- Krist and Arata no longer shown. Krist (north of Pelligini) is definitely abandoned now, but Arata is not. The "C6" block I mentioned seems to be labeled as part of Chelli.
- Btw, Atoosa's vineyard (where Carlisle's Papa's Block Syrah is sourced from) is shown. It's just NW of the intersection of Guerneville & Fulton.
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Re: California’s great old vine Zinfandel vineyards

#592 Post by ClydeUnderwood »

Here's the Map title and legends etc. for the 2007 Map:
SCGGA RRV AVA Map 2007 Title.jpg
SCGGA RRV AVA Map 2007 Legend 1.jpg
SCGGA RRV AVA Map 2007 Legend 2.jpg
SCGGA RRV AVA Map 2007 Legend 3.jpg
SCGGA RRV AVA Map 2007 Legend 4.jpg
Sorry for the inversions when you click on the last 3. You can right click them and save them then load them into any picture file browser to inspect them.

Here's a full view of the 2007 map including the index numbers and letters around the perimeter. This allows you to use the vineyard and winery legend to locate it on the map. If anyone needs a closer up view of some area on the map let me know and I'll try to oblige.
SCGGA RRV AVA Map 2007 Full Index view.jpg
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Re: California’s great old vine Zinfandel vineyards

#593 Post by Sean Devaney »

Many thanks for posting these Clyde.

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Re: California’s great old vine Zinfandel vineyards

#594 Post by Brian Tuite »

Sean Devaney wrote: May 4th, 2021, 10:06 am Many thanks for posting these Clyde.
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Re: California’s great old vine Zinfandel vineyards

#595 Post by ClydeUnderwood »

Changing over to the Sonoma Valley AVA, here's the SCGGA SV AVA 1998 Map, full index view:
SCGGA SV AVA Map 1998 Full Index view.jpg
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Re: California’s great old vine Zinfandel vineyards

#596 Post by ClydeUnderwood »

Here's the SCGGA SV AVA 1998 Map, Kenwood view:
SCGGA SV AVA Map 1998 Kenwood.jpg
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Re: California’s great old vine Zinfandel vineyards

#597 Post by ClydeUnderwood »

Here's the SCGGA SV AVA 1998 Map, Sonoma view:
SCGGA SV AVA Map 1998 Sonoma.jpg
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Re: California’s great old vine Zinfandel vineyards

#598 Post by ClydeUnderwood »

Here's the legends for the 1998 SCGGA SV AVA Map:
SCGGA SV AVA Map 1998 Legend 1.jpg
SCGGA SV AVA Map 1998 Legend 2.jpg
SCGGA SV AVA Map 1998 Legend 3.jpg
As before, sorry about the rotations and inversions. You can right click these and save them and then load them into any photo file viewer to inspect them.
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Re: California’s great old vine Zinfandel vineyards

#599 Post by ClydeUnderwood »

Here's the SCGGA SV AVA 2007 Map, full index view:
SCGGA SV AVA Map 2007 Full Index view.jpg
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Re: California’s great old vine Zinfandel vineyards

#600 Post by ClydeUnderwood »

Here's the SCGGA SV AVA 2007 Map, Kenwood view:
SCGGA SV AVA Map 2007 Kenwood.jpg
A few items of note:

- The Rossi vineyard (Carlisle) is shown west of Warm Springs Rd south of Kenwood, but only labeled in the 1998 map.
- The Justi Creek/Mancuso vineyard (Lasseter winery), just east of the intersection of Henno and Mancus Rds (north of Glen Ellen) appears to be shown as the Morse vineyard in both 1998 and 2007 maps.
- Old Hill is shown as the Teller vinyard in the 1998 map, but is unlabeled in the 2007 map.
- The Bedrock vineyard is labeled Domenici in the 1998 map, but Bedrock/Madrone in the 2007 map.
- The Casa Santinamaria/Maggies Reserve (SW of Boyes & Arnold) appears to be labeled Gallo in the 1998 map, but is unlabeled in the 2007 map.
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Last edited by ClydeUnderwood on May 5th, 2021, 12:45 am, edited 2 times in total.

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