Basic Burgundy help (How do I learn to love it?)

In short: I like much of the Burgundy I’ve tried, but I don’t think I’ve ever loved it.

Tried some things that were quite good- Dominique Derain’s St. Aubin rouge, George Lignier’s Clos de Ormes, Antoine Jobard’s Meursault, one of Jean-Marc Pillot’s 1er Cru whites, some older Robert Ampeau from the '90s.

All of them were clearly very well-made, enjoyable, and yet none of them did “that thing” that turned into a truly memorable experience.

Might just not be for me, or maybe just not at this moment in time. But I’d like to keep working at it before I give up.

I can afford to explore a few more expensive wines, up to $600/bottle or so. And then can also do a larger number of <$200 bottles. And I have easy access to many things here in NYC. But would love to hear some thoughts and maybe ask a couple questions before I just go blindly buying.

Anyone have any advice to offer? Either specific recommendations or a more general approach.

(Or, if anyone wants to share their Burgundy “eureka” moment, I’d love to hear about that too!)

If it helps, my regular rotation is mostly: traditional-styled Bordeaux, all sorts of Loire Cab Franc + Chenin, and then some Rioja, Piedmont, Germany, Northern Rhone, and Musar.

Thanks in advance,

I’d suggest you just keep tasting, especially bottles with some age on them. Young burgundy is often delicious, and I drink plenty of it, but older bottles can be ethereal.

My two epiphany bottles (in red), both about 5 years ago:

• 1985 Hospices de Beaune Cuvee Nicolas Rolin (Jadot Elevage)
• 2007 Mugnier Chambolle-Musigny

Thanks for starting this thread, Jonathan. I’m sure this topic has been discussed before, but worth a refresh… I think there are many of us in the same boat. I’ve had similar difficulty find really enjoyable red burgundy – probably because I try to stay in the $100-200 range which doesn’t seem to go very far in the Cote de Nuits.

Burgundy is like sex. Most of the time it’s pretty good, often it’s just OK. And sometimes it’s just terrible. But every once in awhile it’s absolutely toe-curling and transcendental.

So I guess my advice is this: Just keep doin’ it. The magic will happen.

Sorry if this thought is too graphic. If so, substitute a Grateful Dead or Van Morrison concert for sex and you will get same idea!

I’ll suggest the opposite and I’m not being flippant or selfish. If you don’t love it, don’t try to. The better stuff is getting more & more expensive, less & less available and at that level, ideally requires significant cellar age.

I mean wouldn’t it be ideal if you found the same experience the longtime or bigger burgheads get from their ultra rare/ ultra expensive bottle in something less expensive and more easily attainable?
Other than optics, why buy the Ferrari if you love the performance of a GTR?

I hear you on that, but, unfortunately for my wallet, it’s just not the way I’m wired.

(e.g. I could do my music mixing work on $1000 powered speakers, but I’ve chosen to do my work on a $25k listening system, and I’m about to spend more. etc etc)

It’s not just to spend the money, nor for any sort of bragging rights. More that 1. I like a challenge, 2. When I’m old, I don’t want to look back and wonder if I missed out on something special, and 3. Much of my favorite art, music, film, literature, etc etc took a lot of effort to understand, was not stuff that spoke to me quickly or readily.

There’s a hypothetical point in the future where I might know that Burgundy’s not for me, but I know I’m nowhere near that point yet.

I totally get this point. Most of the best things are also sufficiently complex as to be difficult and inaccessible at first (a/k/a “acquired tastes”). It is that complexity (and initial difficulty) that contributes to it ultimately being so enjoyable once you DO make the breakthrough.

I suggest you focus more on producer rather anything else. I do not recommend that you go to real high expensive producers like Roumier or Rousseau (or DRC), but rather some top notch producers whose wines, while not inexpensive, are not at nose-bleed levels. One good way to look for producers is to see what people here actually are buying. Top 10 Burg Producers In Your Cellar - WINE TALK - WineBerserkers Note that for a lot of people (like me) some of the top producers in cellars are wines that are now really expensive but were not when the wines were purchased. For values, pay attention to post 166 and 175. I do not know a lot of these producers but am interested in trying them.

Right now, some producers whose wines you should try are Hudelot-Noellat, Trapet, Rossignol-Trapet, Duroche, Jean Marc Millot, Drouhin, Lafarge, D’Angerville, Clerget, and, for more value, Domaine des Moirots, Juillot and Faiveley’s wines from Mercury.

For whites, try Chablis from Christian Moreau and Moreau-Naudet and wines from the Cote du Beaune from Drouhin, Bernard Moreau, Heitz-Lochardet and Buisson-Charles.

And, go to one of these, at least to the grand tasting or the verticals. https://www.lapaulee.com/ I have heard that they may have them both in NYC and in SF in 2022. A great experience.

I’d suggest trying to find a tasting group or set up a tasting dinner where you can try several wines selected by knowledgeable people and see if any of them do it for you. You should be able to do that easily enough in NYC. Probably many on this board who can help. If you try 10-12 burgs selected by those in the know and still don’t like it you can at least rest assured you’ve made every effort.

Don’t force it. Follow what you do like, but keep options open by taking the opportunity to taste outside you ‘go to’ regions.

FWIW my best Burg experience was a bottle with about 40 years age on it, and something less fancy than others I’ve tried. Amusingly it elicited the comment from a Burgophile friend, that he feared he may have committed a lifetime to drinking Burgundy wines that were too young!

I tend to agree with people who say that you shouldn’t force it, but you also clearly like what you’ve had, so it seems to me you’re really looking for that “epiphany” moment it seems to me. In which case, go for it! The notion to steer away form Burgundy that some give seems odd to me, as it is genuinely fantastic - nothing else has come close for me in terms of pinot.

I’m pretty familiar with 3 of the wines you’ve listed, and Pillot and Lignier in particular. Is there anything about those wines you liked in particular or wanted more of or didn’t like? Which vintages did you have? Did you want more structure? More fruit? More concentration? More oak influence? More tannin? Lots of ways to make Burgundy people like! I’m also in NYC, so feel free to PM me if you want.

I think Howard gives a good range of producers, but I’d be surprised if most of those produced a eureka moment for you personally - I think they’re more a good set of wines to be buying and putting down now. (Drouhin requires a fair amount of age, Duroche and Clerget are producers making their best wines now, etc*) Unless, of course, you’re sourcing older versions of some of these - no question a Drouhin Amoureuses could well do the trick

*This isn’t a view on Howard’s palate or an attempt at a negtaive comment, but I genuinely think these are a combination of value wines and wines for the future. I definitely buy some of them too - Hudelot-Noellat, Lafarge, Drouhin, some Duroche, etc. It just seems to me the OP is looking for something a bit different.

like Villaine says about Romanée Conti, you have to go to it; it won’t come to you.

The paulee suggestion is an excellent one. For a modest ticket price, you can not only taste new releases, but aged examples from producers that are pretty stratospheric in price (Ligier Belair, doubt that they will be hanging around the vertical tastings much longer given the demand for their wines.) I have found that just tasting the wines in themselves, without a grasp of the history/terroir/culture of Burgundy will be somewhat disappointing. Kind of like wandering through MOMA without any frame of reference for the works or why they are meaningful. After all, what really is so special about painting a Campbells Soup can on canvas?

For pure pinot flavors, you may be a lot more wowed by a good Oregon pinot that has a fresh fruit profile when young than a funky Lafarge-like Volnay that is tasted young. There is something to be said for young pinot wines!

Burgundy collecting is the vinous equivalent in many ways of guys (mostly) who in another life were stamp collectors or antique car collectors. When the prices started to go crazy, then a whole mob of speculators jumped in and have vastly overvalued (in my opinion of course) the juice in the bottle. It is regrettable but there is not likely a turning back of the clock. If you still want to chase this particular dragon, be prepared to invest a lot of time, do a lot of reading, ideally travel to Burgundy, and do your homework before expecting to get a great experience. Great Burgs are as much of an intellectual experience as a tasting one. Chasing great known producers at this point is difficult, and expensive. Look for the up and comers, a new discovery of someone who will likely be great in the future is half the fun! (suggest Bruno Lorenzon in Mercury for a start. Very accessible young, exciting guy)

I was actually at the welcome party for the winemakers + event staff in NYC a couple years back, mixing sound for the band that was playing.

Not the same as attending the actual events, but the winemakers each brought a magnum to share, and I did taste a few things while working (my favorite of which was some Corton Charlemagne, I don’t remember from which producer).

That was back when I knew just a little bit about wine at all (and really just mostly Bordeaux, at that). You are definitely right that I should go to the actual event.

NYC is also blessed with some really high-quality retailers that love Burgundy. SommCellars, Crush, and Manhattan Wine Company being a few to check out for their generally knowledgeable staffs and occasional tastings.

The 2013 Lignier Clos de Ormes was my first anything from MSD. Was on the light side, archetypically Pinot-y, but had nice minerality, a little bit of funk, and a little bit of a metallic vibe. Not sure I’d pay $70 for it on the regular, but it tasted very good.

The JM Pillot white (Morgeot, I’m pretty sure) was a year and a half ago, I don’t remember it vividly. I enjoyed it but nothing stood out. Jobard Meursault was more recent, but same deal.

I really did enjoy a cheap little $30 Marsannay from Domaine Coillot. 2012 Les Boivins I think? Lots of non-primary notes even at just 8 years age. And a Puligny 1er that the Bowery Hotel had on its list (client was buying, I don’t remember the specific wine).

I think I mostly want more age, more concentration, more age, more complexity, and more age. The '97 Ampeau Meursault probably came closest on that front. I liked that enough to out and buy a couple more.

Almost all of my favorite moments w/ Bordeaux + the Loire are with wines >20 years old, and I might just need to put in the time/effort/$$$ to source that sort of Burg.

Sounds like it’s time for a good old fashioned Burg offline. I am (and I know some others as well are) always willing to open something good to initiate (for example, the other night I had dinner with a friend new to Burgundy and we opened 05 Coche Meursault, 14 Mugnier Amoureuses, and 07 Dujac Bonnes Mares - he left a disciple!).

In my personal path, I found two parts to my appreciation:

1. Experiencing flawless texture and perfect weight. The combination in the mouth feels so complete and precise.
2. Whites. I didn’t appreciate white until I found the white burgundy producers who create harmony in a bottle.

*****In my personal path, I found two parts to my appreciation:

1. Experiencing flawless texture and perfect weight. The combination in the mouth feels so complete and precise.
2. Whites. I didn’t appreciate white until I found the white burgundy producers who create harmony in a bottle. *****

Wonderfully expressed.

Finding well stored, aged, white Burgundy is pretty hard in my experience. Ampeau is a fabulous exception. One of my favorites of their wines was a 1993 Meursault Perrieres that Envoyer got ahold of several years ago.

Jonathan and Howard, do you know if there are any differences in quality between Potinet-Ampeau and Robert Ampeau? Seen them pop up from time to time, will try to get hold of one based on this!