Three OR pinot comparisons

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Three OR pinot comparisons

#1 Post by Brian Be »

Dipping my toes into Oregon Pinot, figured I would start with an order of lower priced wines to get a sense of producer style. Opened three last night with my wife:

2019 Patricia Green Cellars Reserve - least favorite of the night, seemed to have more fruit and more oak, made for an enjoyable and flavorful first sip but was not something I wanted multiple glasses of.

2017 Eyrie Estate - Wife's favorite OR Pinot so far, so it's the standard comparison bottle. Much less oak flavor on this, lots of earthy/funk, plenty of acidity and nice tannins, background of red fruit. Tasted the next day and this improved more. 2nd favorite the night we opened, favorite the next day.

2017 Goodfellow Ribbon Ridge - very pretty red fruit with abundance of acidity, nice tannin finish. Opened up considerable throughout the the night, glass the next day was still improving. Very pretty, clean, tart wine, easy to drink. I think I prefer the clean flavors in this wine in general over some of the funk/earthy notes that other Pinot Noir has. I enjoy those notes when they are in balance, the Eyrie had this balanced, but it's often overpowering in other wines.

My main questions for you all:

1) Is the Patricia Green Reserve representative of their higher end single vineyard bottles? I get the sense that a lot of smaller OR wineries produce all their wine aiming for a similar taste profile, then split the finished product into single vineyard versus 'Willamette Valley' or 'Ribbon Ridge' based on the quality of each barrel. That's how the Goodfellow and Eyrie felt, so good representation of their house style but at a lower quality (and price) point. The Patricia Green Reserve felt like it was made to spec as a product in and of itself as opposed to being their declassified wine, so maybe not a good representation of their single vineyard offerings?

2) How much should I read into how the wines tasted on day two as a representation of how much more age they need? The Goodfellow had very high acidity which continued to tone down over the evening/next day. Would this benefit from aging, even as their lower end product?
Last edited by Brian Be on May 1st, 2021, 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Three OR pinot comparisons

#2 Post by Marcus Goodfellow »

Yes to the aging on the 2017 Ribbon Ridge. Though YMMV as to when it should be opened.

The 2017 vintage is a structured vintage with savory fruit and good acidity as a whole. More so than some other recent vintages. That said, Whistling Ridge really seems to become more integrated after a number of years in bottle(7 years is where I usually start to check in) and will continue to evolve and blossom for years after that.
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Re: Three OR pinot comparisons

#3 Post by Jim Anderson »

Brian Be wrote: May 1st, 2021, 3:40 pm Dipping my toes into Oregon Pinot, figured I would start with an order of lower priced wines to get a sense of producer style. Opened three last night with my wife:

2019 Patricia Green Cellars Reserve - least favorite of the night, seemed to have more fruit and more oak, made for an enjoyable and flavorful first sip but was not something I wanted multiple glasses of.

2017 Eyrie Estate - Wife's favorite OR Pinot so far, so it's the standard comparison bottle. Much less oak flavor on this, lots of earthy/funk, plenty of acidity and nice tannins, background of red fruit. Tasted the next day and this improved more. 2nd favorite the night we opened, favorite the next day.

2017 Goodfellow Ribbon Ridge - very pretty red fruit with abundance of acidity, nice tannin finish. Opened up considerable throughout the the night, glass the next day was still improving. Very pretty, clean, tart wine, easy to drink. I think I prefer the clean flavors in this wine in general over some of the funk/earthy notes that other Pinot Noir has. I enjoy those notes when they are in balance, the Eyrie had this balanced, but it's often overpowering in other wines.

My main questions for you all:

1) Is the Patricia Green Reserve representative of their higher end single vineyard bottles? I get the sense that a lot of smaller OR wineries produce all their wine aiming for a similar taste profile, then split the finished product into single vineyard versus 'Willamette Valley' or 'Ribbon Ridge' based on the quality of each barrel. That's how the Goodfellow and Eyrie felt, so good representation of their house style but at a lower quality (and price) point. The Patricia Green Reserve felt like it was made to spec as a product in and of itself as opposed to being their declassified wine, so maybe not a good representation of their single vineyard offerings?

2) How much should I read into how the wines tasted on day two as a representation of how much more age they need? The Goodfellow had very high acidity which continued to tone down over the evening/next day. Would this benefit from aging, even as their lower end product?
I don’t know how other wineries operate but I doubt many do it the way you’re describing and that’s certainly not the way we do it. That’s our entry level Willamette Valley bottling that has almost no new oak (less than 5%) and is fruit forward because it’s meant and priced to be drunk on the younger side of things although, given things that are in it, tends to do fine with 10+ years of bottle age.
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Re: Three OR pinot comparisons

#4 Post by brigcampbell »

Marcus Goodfellow wrote: May 1st, 2021, 3:55 pm Yes to the aging on the 2017 Ribbon Ridge. Though YMMV as to when it should be opened.

The 2017 vintage is a structured vintage with savory fruit and good acidity as a whole. More so than some other recent vintages. That said, Whistling Ridge really seems to become more integrated after a number of years in bottle(7 years is where I usually start to check in) and will continue to evolve and blossom for years after that.
Drank the 17 WR PN this week and it showed very well. Lots of acid, that's good in my book today and excellent for those interested in aging.
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Re: Three OR pinot comparisons

#5 Post by brigcampbell »

Jim, is there whole cluster in there?

The oak /WC can be confused. I know first hand.
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Re: Three OR pinot comparisons

#6 Post by Mark Y »

Brian Be wrote: May 1st, 2021, 3:40 pm Dipping my toes into Oregon Pinot,

....

I get the sense that a lot of smaller OR wineries produce all their wine aiming for a similar taste profile, then split the finished product into single vineyard versus 'Willamette Valley' or 'Ribbon Ridge' based on the quality of each barrel.
You get that sense from trying 3 btls of an entire region?? if you are just dipping your toes in... [wow.gif]
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Re: Three OR pinot comparisons

#7 Post by Brian Be »

Jim Anderson wrote: May 1st, 2021, 4:24 pm

I don’t know how other wineries operate but I doubt many do it the way you’re describing and that’s certainly not the way we do it. That’s our entry level Willamette Valley bottling that has almost no new oak (less than 5%) and is fruit forward because it’s meant and priced to be drunk on the younger side of things although, given things that are in it, tends to do fine with 10+ years of bottle age.
Thanks for the response, I have a lot to learn for sure. With the lack of new oak, what accounts for the mid-palate spice/wood flavor, is that whole cluster? It sounds like your single vineyard offerings are a different style, less fruit forward?
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Re: Three OR pinot comparisons

#8 Post by JBrochu »

How great is it that somebody posts a question comparing three wines and the first two responses are from two of the three winemakers? Really cool.
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Re: Three OR pinot comparisons

#9 Post by Jim Anderson »

brigcampbell wrote: May 1st, 2021, 4:31 pm Jim, is there whole cluster in there?

The oak /WC can be confused. I know first hand.
Had to look it up. Exactly 33% of the barrels that make this wine up range from 33% to 100% (far more 100% than 33 or 50) whole cluster. I don’t know what that translates into overall percent. I don’t really think it works that way though. A 50% whole cluster fermented wine is different than a 50% whole cluster wine that is half 100% whole cluster and half 100% destemmed. Nonetheless, the presence of whole cluster fermentation should be evident. There were 5 new barrels out of 168 (3%) and 127 neutral barrels (76%).
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Re: Three OR pinot comparisons

#10 Post by D@vid Bu3ker »

I am seriously geeking out on this.
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Re: Three OR pinot comparisons

#11 Post by Mattstolz »

of the three wineries, I think in general Patricia Green benefits the most from a decent amount of cellar time, all the way up and down the lineup. they evolve really well and are pretty big as far as Oregon goes for the first few years. it makes me sometimes feel exactly as you described but it incorporates so well over time and really smooths the edges and integrates well.

for the record, im not saying that Goodfellow does NOT benefit from aging. but I think you get a better sense of the wines from Goodfellow right outta the gate than you do PGC due to the style.

if you look on CT, you can see that is really well reflected in the drinking windows. for example, the PGC Ribbon Ridge bottling on average has drinking windows starting 3ish years after vintage whereas Goodfellow is the next year. I dont often put much stock in that particular feature of CT but ive always noticed that with PGC wines.

also yes, that spicy note is probably whole cluster

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Re: Three OR pinot comparisons

#12 Post by Brian Be »

Mark Y wrote: May 1st, 2021, 4:37 pm
Brian Be wrote: May 1st, 2021, 3:40 pm Dipping my toes into Oregon Pinot,

....

I get the sense that a lot of smaller OR wineries produce all their wine aiming for a similar taste profile, then split the finished product into single vineyard versus 'Willamette Valley' or 'Ribbon Ridge' based on the quality of each barrel.
You get that sense from trying 3 btls of an entire region?? if you are just dipping your toes in... [wow.gif]
I opened three bottles last night, I've had more than 3 from the region.

Yes, it's the sense I get from tasting wines and from what I know happens in the bourbon industry. I assume there is variation in finished product, with whiskey that's dealt with by tiering your product line, would make sense to do something similar with wine. I'm learning for sure, don't mind being wrong and appreciate people pointing it out, I'll note that Jim confirmed the taste profile of the Reserve is as intended which was my hunch.
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Re: Three OR pinot comparisons

#13 Post by brigcampbell »

Jim Anderson wrote: May 1st, 2021, 4:53 pm
brigcampbell wrote: May 1st, 2021, 4:31 pm Jim, is there whole cluster in there?

The oak /WC can be confused. I know first hand.
Had to look it up. Exactly 33% of the barrels that make this wine up range from 33% to 100% (far more 100% than 33 or 50) whole cluster. I don’t know what that translates into overall percent. I don’t really think it works that way though. A 50% whole cluster fermented wine is different than a 50% whole cluster wine that is half 100% whole cluster and half 100% destemmed. Nonetheless, the presence of whole cluster fermentation should be evident. There were 5 new barrels out of 168 (3%) and 127 neutral barrels (76%).
Yeah, that's what I suspected. It's the whole cluster. Fair enough, some dont enjoy that and in PN and it can be interpreted as oak.

The good news is whole cluster integrates but the big oak treatment, not so much.
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Re: Three OR pinot comparisons

#14 Post by Scott Watkins »

All this being said a number of years ago I think the PG reserve opened my eyes to what Oregon Pinot is/can be and I will always be grateful!
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Re: Three OR pinot comparisons

#15 Post by Mark Y »

Brian Be wrote: May 1st, 2021, 5:08 pm
Mark Y wrote: May 1st, 2021, 4:37 pm
Brian Be wrote: May 1st, 2021, 3:40 pm Dipping my toes into Oregon Pinot,

....

I get the sense that a lot of smaller OR wineries produce all their wine aiming for a similar taste profile, then split the finished product into single vineyard versus 'Willamette Valley' or 'Ribbon Ridge' based on the quality of each barrel.
You get that sense from trying 3 btls of an entire region?? if you are just dipping your toes in... [wow.gif]
I opened three bottles last night, I've had more than 3 from the region.

Yes, it's the sense I get from tasting wines and from what I know happens in the bourbon industry. I assume there is variation in finished product, with whiskey that's dealt with by tiering your product line, would make sense to do something similar with wine. I'm learning for sure, don't mind being wrong and appreciate people pointing it out, I'll note that Jim confirmed the taste profile of the Reserve is as intended which was my hunch.
Ah ok. I’m not an expert in Oregon wine either but from what I’ve seen it’s not quite like the bourbon industry.

To answer your second question. I don’t think extended aeration (day 2) gives indication of aging potential. That’s the case for any region btw in my opinion. I do think most well made Oregon pinots can age a long time.
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Re: Three OR pinot comparisons

#16 Post by PeterH »

We had a 2012 Patricia Green Reserve a couple of months ago, and it still tasted young yet ready to drink. Vastly over delivered for a mid-week casual wine.

2017 Goodfellow wines need at least a few more years to shake out the nuts and bolts, and are built for 20+. Same with Eyrie, which makes it amazing how good they taste long before their peak drinking window.
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Re: Three OR pinot comparisons

#17 Post by Mike Grammer »

Good discussion, all. Brian, I remembered I'd posted a bit on your question on ageing as a response to a thread starter and found this thread, hope it may be helpful

viewtopic.php?p=2545714#p2545714

Mark will remember the tasting we were at that was the subject of my first posted note in that thread ;)
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Re: Three OR pinot comparisons

#18 Post by David Patte »

Lots to discuss here— regarding how/whether small OR wineries develop a house taste profile, it’s of course true to an extent based on the many wine making practices and decisions that will inevitably influence all the wines produced by a winery (use of whole cluster, % new oak, free run vs. press wine use, extraction style (length of macération, # and types of punchdowns vs. pumpovers vs délestage), type/quality of equipment, cellar conditions, etc) but most of us are seeking diversity of expression based on any number of factors.

You will notice for example that many small wineries make Pinot Noir from multiple vineyards and AVAs to give you a small journey through the multiple expressions of Oregon’s AVAs and terroir. Others (such as me) focus one or two vineyards or their own estate (wish I could afford it!) to explore the variation of that one site, and with all the different clones (blends and/or single block/clone bottlings). I decided to pursue this route for example because I quickly realized that it would be impossible to obtain all 6 Pinot Noir clones at the Cortell-Rose Vineyard without a 10 to 15 ton purchase agreement.... And then I want also to explore three styles with all those clones: 100% destemmed (Colette), 100% whole cluster (Ariane) and a blend of the two (Marie-Paule). By the way, I have never had a client or wine critic characterize the 100% WC Ariane as oaky — to me oaky is vanilla, mocha, caramel, etc. and WC is more freshness, lighter (sometimes candied) fruit, savory and spice notes, sometimes salinity in its youth (green olive, Cab Franc-like pyrazines) (but not the vanilla/etc.).

In terms of Willamette Valley vs. single-vineyard some/many, but certainly not all, will separate all the press wine from various vineyards and this becomes the core (or 100%) or the declassified wine; or 9/10 months in barrel vs. 16/18 months; but many more will use blending trials from all barrels to make the decision. As a side note, I like to incorporate the press and free run wine in each barrel (learned this from experience and from Antica Terra, Hiyu, Mylan and others). I like the added texture, phenolics (tannins and such) and depth of flavor the press wine provides. Side not # 2: Longer barrel maturation for me does not automatically make a reserve wine: I use it depending on the phenolics of various cuvées (tannins, etc). I have noticed that some wineries’ reserve wines will have a higher percentage of new oak, which in turn requires longer barrel and bottle maturation times. (I don’t use new oak at all.)

Regarding your second question about Day 2, I always use this as a test to see how the wine MIGHT progress over time. The Day 2 test is a lot of oxidation, certainly more than the oxygen ingress that accompanies bottling (mostly from O2 released by the compression of the cork at bottling over the first 12 months or so). We heard a wine maker from Burgundy a few years ago tell us he preferred the “last drop” method (smell your empty glass after 2 or 3 minutes.) If the wine fails the Day 2 test in a funky way that’s a sign to me that the bottles could need to be very, very carefully cellared at 55F or below. If it passes the Day 2 test it’s certainly a good sign (I’ve had a few bad surprises based on this test, but not many).

Hope this helps!
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Re: Three OR pinot comparisons

#19 Post by Marcus Goodfellow »

brigcampbell wrote: May 1st, 2021, 9:02 pm
Jim Anderson wrote: May 1st, 2021, 4:53 pm
brigcampbell wrote: May 1st, 2021, 4:31 pm Jim, is there whole cluster in there?

The oak /WC can be confused. I know first hand.
Had to look it up. Exactly 33% of the barrels that make this wine up range from 33% to 100% (far more 100% than 33 or 50) whole cluster. I don’t know what that translates into overall percent. I don’t really think it works that way though. A 50% whole cluster fermented wine is different than a 50% whole cluster wine that is half 100% whole cluster and half 100% destemmed. Nonetheless, the presence of whole cluster fermentation should be evident. There were 5 new barrels out of 168 (3%) and 127 neutral barrels (76%).
Yeah, that's what I suspected. It's the whole cluster. Fair enough, some dont enjoy that and in PN and it can be interpreted as oak.

The good news is whole cluster integrates but the big oak treatment, not so much.
Just as a data point the whole cluster in the Ribbon Ridge is about 66% by aggregate, but that wine is a grouping of puncheons between 50-100% stems.

It’s worth noting that barriques, IMO, give more flesh to Pinot Noir than bigger barrels do, and even newer 500L generally don’t give the same opulence that the 228L barrels do.

Also, alcohol gives both richness and is a solvent, so higher abv will generally give a greater weight to the wines and also increase perception of oak. Not saying the PGC is high alcohol, everything is relative and the Ribbon Ridge is a, relatively, low alcohol wine.

We definitely have a “house style”, and that does extend down to the entry level wines. But the “house style” isn’t intended to cover the terroir and give a similar experience to all of our wines. Quite the opposite, I want to see the variation in terroirs more than anything else.

I just believe that cellared wines provide the highest highs in my experience with red wine, and in order to cellar well, you need adequate and mature acids, fine but significant tannin, a focus on dry extract rather than sweet fruit, and lower alcohols. But we do handle the fruit from each vineyard differently, aside from native yeast and fermenter size(smaller 1.5 ton 4’x4’x4’ bins).
Last edited by Marcus Goodfellow on May 2nd, 2021, 9:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Three OR pinot comparisons

#20 Post by Richard T r i m p i »

Brian Be wrote: May 1st, 2021, 3:40 pm Dipping my toes into Oregon Pinot, figured I would start with an order of lower priced wines to get a sense of producer style.
Nice introduction. To get a better sense of producer style, you need to taste a handful of different bottlings from each IMHO, although you need to start somewhere. It's fun homework, and a remarkable opportunity to learn more from the winemakers themselves.

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Re: Three OR pinot comparisons

#21 Post by Brian S t o t t e r »

Marcus Goodfellow wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 9:03 am
brigcampbell wrote: May 1st, 2021, 9:02 pm
Jim Anderson wrote: May 1st, 2021, 4:53 pm

Had to look it up. Exactly 33% of the barrels that make this wine up range from 33% to 100% (far more 100% than 33 or 50) whole cluster. I don’t know what that translates into overall percent. I don’t really think it works that way though. A 50% whole cluster fermented wine is different than a 50% whole cluster wine that is half 100% whole cluster and half 100% destemmed. Nonetheless, the presence of whole cluster fermentation should be evident. There were 5 new barrels out of 168 (3%) and 127 neutral barrels (76%).
Yeah, that's what I suspected. It's the whole cluster. Fair enough, some dont enjoy that and in PN and it can be interpreted as oak.

The good news is whole cluster integrates but the big oak treatment, not so much.
Just as a data point the whole cluster in the Ribbon Ridge is about 66% by aggregate, but that wine is a grouping of puncheons between 50-100% stems.

It’s worth noting that barriques, IMO, give more flesh to Pinot Noir than bigger barrels do, and even newer 500L generally don’t give the same opulence that the 228L barrels do.

Also, alcohol gives both richness and is a solvent, so higher abv will generally give a greater weight to the wines and also increase perception of oak. Not saying the PGC is high alcohol, everything is relative and the Ribbon Ridge is a, relatively, low alcohol wine.

We definitely have a “house style”, and that does extend down to the entry level wines. But the “house style” isn’t intended to cover the terroir and give a similar experience to all of our wines. I just believe that cellared wines provide the highest highs in my experience with red wine, and in order to cellar well, you need adequate and mature acids, fine but significant tannin, a focus on dry extract rather than sweet fruit, and lower alcohols.
You’re making me want to pull a 2011 Matello Souris to go with my hanger steaks tonight. Be right back...
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Re: Three OR pinot comparisons

#22 Post by Marcus Goodfellow »

Brian S t o t t e r wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 9:30 am
Marcus Goodfellow wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 9:03 am
brigcampbell wrote: May 1st, 2021, 9:02 pm

Yeah, that's what I suspected. It's the whole cluster. Fair enough, some dont enjoy that and in PN and it can be interpreted as oak.

The good news is whole cluster integrates but the big oak treatment, not so much.
Just as a data point the whole cluster in the Ribbon Ridge is about 66% by aggregate, but that wine is a grouping of puncheons between 50-100% stems.

It’s worth noting that barriques, IMO, give more flesh to Pinot Noir than bigger barrels do, and even newer 500L generally don’t give the same opulence that the 228L barrels do.

Also, alcohol gives both richness and is a solvent, so higher abv will generally give a greater weight to the wines and also increase perception of oak. Not saying the PGC is high alcohol, everything is relative and the Ribbon Ridge is a, relatively, low alcohol wine.

We definitely have a “house style”, and that does extend down to the entry level wines. But the “house style” isn’t intended to cover the terroir and give a similar experience to all of our wines. I just believe that cellared wines provide the highest highs in my experience with red wine, and in order to cellar well, you need adequate and mature acids, fine but significant tannin, a focus on dry extract rather than sweet fruit, and lower alcohols.
You’re making me want to pull a 2011 Matello Souris to go with my hanger steaks tonight. Be right back...
Open it at 2:00pm or so. I like bright juicy red wines with steak, and as the tertiary flavors of the 11 Souris come out, that should be a great match!
Last edited by Marcus Goodfellow on May 2nd, 2021, 9:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Three OR pinot comparisons

#23 Post by Brian S t o t t e r »

Marcus Goodfellow wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 9:39 am
Brian S t o t t e r wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 9:30 am
Marcus Goodfellow wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 9:03 am

Just as a data point the whole cluster in the Ribbon Ridge is about 66% by aggregate, but that wine is a grouping of puncheons between 50-100% stems.

It’s worth noting that barriques, IMO, give more flesh to Pinot Noir than bigger barrels do, and even newer 500L generally don’t give the same opulence that the 228L barrels do.

Also, alcohol gives both richness and is a solvent, so higher abv will generally give a greater weight to the wines and also increase perception of oak. Not saying the PGC is high alcohol, everything is relative and the Ribbon Ridge is a, relatively, low alcohol wine.

We definitely have a “house style”, and that does extend down to the entry level wines. But the “house style” isn’t intended to cover the terroir and give a similar experience to all of our wines. I just believe that cellared wines provide the highest highs in my experience with red wine, and in order to cellar well, you need adequate and mature acids, fine but significant tannin, a focus on dry extract rather than sweet fruit, and lower alcohols.
You’re making me want to pull a 2011 Matello Souris to go with my hanger steaks tonight. Be right back...
Open it at 2:00pm or so. I like bright juicy red wines with steak, and as the tertiary flavors of the 11 Souris come out, that shoukd be a great match!
Thanks for the tip. Slow O or decant?
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Re: Three OR pinot comparisons

#24 Post by Marcus Goodfellow »

Brian S t o t t e r wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 9:40 am
Marcus Goodfellow wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 9:39 am
Brian S t o t t e r wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 9:30 am

You’re making me want to pull a 2011 Matello Souris to go with my hanger steaks tonight. Be right back...
Open it at 2:00pm or so. I like bright juicy red wines with steak, and as the tertiary flavors of the 11 Souris come out, that shoukd be a great match!
Thanks for the tip. Slow O or decant?
I like pouring 2-3 oz, and letting the bottle sit for 4-5 hours. But decanting should also do the trick, I would guess about an hour should work with the decanter.

That specific wine ranks very high on scale of how much air can change a wine. It’s very pretty red fruits, light bodied and transparent, when opened, and then really shifts into savory dark fruit and autumn forest mode when it opens. (Though it is under cork, so there’s been more variation than the wines closed with Diam.)
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Re: Three OR pinot comparisons

#25 Post by Marshall Manning »

Jim Anderson wrote: May 1st, 2021, 4:53 pm There were 5 new barrels out of 168 (3%) and 127 neutral barrels (76%).
Jim, just for clarification, what do you consider a neutral barrel? Steve Edmunds once said that he doesn't consider a barrel to be neutral until it's had a least 5 uses (not necessarily 5 years old), but I've heard some winemakers say "neutral" when it's just not a new barrel.
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Re: Three OR pinot comparisons

#26 Post by Jim Anderson »

Marshall Manning wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 10:51 am
Jim Anderson wrote: May 1st, 2021, 4:53 pm There were 5 new barrels out of 168 (3%) and 127 neutral barrels (76%).
Jim, just for clarification, what do you consider a neutral barrel? Steve Edmunds once said that he doesn't consider a barrel to be neutral until it's had a least 5 uses (not necessarily 5 years old), but I've heard some winemakers say "neutral" when it's just not a new barrel.
4+ uses. Especially for the cooperages I mostly use.
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Re: Three OR pinot comparisons

#27 Post by Marshall Manning »

Thanks, Jim.
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Re: Three OR pinot comparisons

#28 Post by Brian Be »

Really interesting discussions. Just wanted to say a special thanks to all the winemakers who participated and explained in detail their thought process and winemaking techniques. I have a lot to learn and having this forum as a resource is invaluable.
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Re: Three OR pinot comparisons

#29 Post by brigcampbell »

Marshall Manning wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 10:51 am
Jim Anderson wrote: May 1st, 2021, 4:53 pm There were 5 new barrels out of 168 (3%) and 127 neutral barrels (76%).
Jim, just for clarification, what do you consider a neutral barrel? Steve Edmunds once said that he doesn't consider a barrel to be neutral until it's had a least 5 uses (not necessarily 5 years old), but I've heard some winemakers say "neutral" when it's just not a new barrel.
We could start an entire thread on new oak and what it really means when a winery says "X% new oak" and how that is calculated especially when some barrels are neither brand new or "neutral". You could have 75% new oak and no new barrels.

Nobody is hiding anything but it's not exactly obvious or straight forward for the general wine public.
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Re: Three OR pinot comparisons

#30 Post by Wes Barton »

brigcampbell wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 3:45 pm
Marshall Manning wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 10:51 am
Jim Anderson wrote: May 1st, 2021, 4:53 pm There were 5 new barrels out of 168 (3%) and 127 neutral barrels (76%).
Jim, just for clarification, what do you consider a neutral barrel? Steve Edmunds once said that he doesn't consider a barrel to be neutral until it's had a least 5 uses (not necessarily 5 years old), but I've heard some winemakers say "neutral" when it's just not a new barrel.
We could start an entire thread on new oak and what it really means when a winery says "X% new oak" and how that is calculated especially when some barrels are neither brand new or "neutral". You could have 75% new oak and no new barrels.

Nobody is hiding anything but it's not exactly obvious or straight forward for the general wine public.
And, depending on the wine itself and all the cooperage details, some oak that's been used a few times can still clash with and detract from a wine. Other oak that's brand new can integrate and take a supporting role, not doing imparting awkward or obnoxious. So, some wines that are 100% new oak don't come across as "oaky" to most people, and some wines in "100% neutral oak" come across as disgusting to some people. <ahem> Good winemakers will be building on their knowledge and experience what barrels are appropriate for which wines.
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Re: Three OR pinot comparisons

#31 Post by brigcampbell »

Wes Barton wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 5:10 pm
brigcampbell wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 3:45 pm
Marshall Manning wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 10:51 am

Jim, just for clarification, what do you consider a neutral barrel? Steve Edmunds once said that he doesn't consider a barrel to be neutral until it's had a least 5 uses (not necessarily 5 years old), but I've heard some winemakers say "neutral" when it's just not a new barrel.
We could start an entire thread on new oak and what it really means when a winery says "X% new oak" and how that is calculated especially when some barrels are neither brand new or "neutral". You could have 75% new oak and no new barrels.

Nobody is hiding anything but it's not exactly obvious or straight forward for the general wine public.
And, depending on the wine itself and all the cooperage details, some oak that's been used a few times can still clash with and detract from a wine. Other oak that's brand new can integrate and take a supporting role, not doing imparting awkward or obnoxious. So, some wines that are 100% new oak don't come across as "oaky" to most people, and some wines in "100% neutral oak" come across as disgusting to some people. <ahem> Good winemakers will be building on their knowledge and experience what barrels are appropriate for which wines.
Funny story. I was tasting with Eric from Ladd at falltacular and his chardonnay was stunning.

I said "all neutral oak?"

He said "nope, 20% new oak"

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Eric "I have no idea where the oak went"

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Re: Three OR pinot comparisons

#32 Post by Jim Anderson »

Couple of years back I bought a couple of barrels from a cooperage I had never heard of before. The guy was great. Tasted through wines in barrel and he really got what I was talking about and what we are looking for in our wines and barrels. Barrels show up and they are GORGEOUS. Freaking works of art. Very excited. Unfortunately any wine in them ended up tasting like Christmas. Had to bury some good stuff in the biggest bottling. Took 2 vintages before they even tasted like a regular new barrel. They were actually nice at that point but there was pain and suffering up to that point. Not a repeat customer.
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Re: Three OR pinot comparisons

#33 Post by Marcus Goodfellow »

Wes Barton wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 5:10 pm
brigcampbell wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 3:45 pm
Marshall Manning wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 10:51 am

Jim, just for clarification, what do you consider a neutral barrel? Steve Edmunds once said that he doesn't consider a barrel to be neutral until it's had a least 5 uses (not necessarily 5 years old), but I've heard some winemakers say "neutral" when it's just not a new barrel.
We could start an entire thread on new oak and what it really means when a winery says "X% new oak" and how that is calculated especially when some barrels are neither brand new or "neutral". You could have 75% new oak and no new barrels.

Nobody is hiding anything but it's not exactly obvious or straight forward for the general wine public.
And, depending on the wine itself and all the cooperage details, some oak that's been used a few times can still clash with and detract from a wine. Other oak that's brand new can integrate and take a supporting role, not doing imparting awkward or obnoxious. So, some wines that are 100% new oak don't come across as "oaky" to most people, and some wines in "100% neutral oak" come across as disgusting to some people. <ahem> Good winemakers will be building on their knowledge and experience what barrels are appropriate for which wines.
And style, site, and vessel size all make a difference.

The 2017 Ribbon Ridge is 40% new 500L puncheon from the same cooper Jim isn’t a repeat customer of(I like Christmas ;) ). I’m not sure which barrels Jim used, but they were nice enough to make me forest specific puncheons. I get Orleans, Bercé, Civrais, Darney, and Citeaux from 36 months seasoned wood. The 500L puncheons behave completely differently than the 228s, and each of the forests is it’s own unique expression. And of course Whistling Ridge handles new wood differently than Durant or Fir Crest where I rarely use new oak at all. I also will sometimes let a puncheon sit for a year in the winery before we use it, and that time will alter the impact.

I stopped talking about percentage of new wood in my wines because the difference between 500L and 228L is so large. And 20 months in a puncheon means that my second fill barrels have seen two vintages pass before they are used again.

The use of new barrel just isn’t the a-b-c impact that it’s often made out to be. And usually there are other aspects in the wine exacerbating the presence of barrels: enzymes, alcohol, powdered finishing tannins, etc.
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Re: Three OR pinot comparisons

#34 Post by Jim Anderson »

Marcus Goodfellow wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 6:29 pm
Wes Barton wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 5:10 pm
brigcampbell wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 3:45 pm

We could start an entire thread on new oak and what it really means when a winery says "X% new oak" and how that is calculated especially when some barrels are neither brand new or "neutral". You could have 75% new oak and no new barrels.

Nobody is hiding anything but it's not exactly obvious or straight forward for the general wine public.
And, depending on the wine itself and all the cooperage details, some oak that's been used a few times can still clash with and detract from a wine. Other oak that's brand new can integrate and take a supporting role, not doing imparting awkward or obnoxious. So, some wines that are 100% new oak don't come across as "oaky" to most people, and some wines in "100% neutral oak" come across as disgusting to some people. <ahem> Good winemakers will be building on their knowledge and experience what barrels are appropriate for which wines.
And style, site, and vessel size all make a difference.

The 2017 Ribbon Ridge is 40% new 500L puncheon from the same cooper Jim isn’t a repeat customer of(I like Christmas ;) ). I’m not sure which barrels Jim used, but they were nice enough to make me forest specific puncheons. I get Orleans, Bercé, Civrais, Darney, and Citeaux from 36 months seasoned wood. The 500L puncheons behave completely differently than the 228s, and each of the forests is it’s own unique expression. And of course Whistling Ridge handles new wood differently than Durant or Fir Crest where I rarely use new oak at all. I also will sometimes

I stopped talking about percentage of new wood in my wines because the difference between 500L and 228L is so large. And 20 months in a puncheon means that my second fill barrels have seen two vintages pass before they are used again.

The use of new barrel just isn’t the a-b-c impact that it’s often made out to be. And usually there are other aspects in the wine exacerbating the presence of barrels: enzymes, alcohol, powdered finishing tannins, etc.
Forgot about that. Yeah. Those 228s were singing all the hit carols.
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Re: Three OR pinot comparisons

#35 Post by Marcus Goodfellow »

It’s funny, I picked up 3-4 barriques from them in 2019 and they didn’t perform well at all.
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Re: Three OR pinot comparisons

#36 Post by R. Frankel »

This thread has gone from fascinating to brain exploding. Forest specific puncheons? I had no idea. I’m sure Civrais has a different effect from Orleans. Jim and Marcus, thank you for the great discussion.
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Re: Three OR pinot comparisons

#37 Post by Jim Anderson »

R. Frankel wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 8:44 pm This thread has gone from fascinating to brain exploding. Forest specific puncheons? I had no idea. I’m sure Civrais has a different effect from Orleans. Jim and Marcus, thank you for the great discussion.
Grains, forests, toast levels, etc. Much dicking around should one choose.
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Re: Three OR pinot comparisons

#38 Post by Marcus Goodfellow »

Jim Anderson wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 9:00 pm
R. Frankel wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 8:44 pm This thread has gone from fascinating to brain exploding. Forest specific puncheons? I had no idea. I’m sure Civrais has a different effect from Orleans. Jim and Marcus, thank you for the great discussion.
Grains, forests, toast levels, etc. Much dicking around should one choose.
And one should choose!

The vineyard sets the pace, everything else drops in behind. It’s fascinating and uplifting to find the right combinations. Pinot Noir is a hard grape. Channeling another thread Jim and I popped of on, it’s a bit like golf. Anybody can hit a great shot, and decent golfers can have a good round. But consistently scoring below par needs more than “grip it and rip it” as a mindset.
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Re: Three OR pinot comparisons

#39 Post by Brian Be »

Marcus Goodfellow wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 6:29 pm
Wes Barton wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 5:10 pm
brigcampbell wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 3:45 pm

We could start an entire thread on new oak and what it really means when a winery says "X% new oak" and how that is calculated especially when some barrels are neither brand new or "neutral". You could have 75% new oak and no new barrels.

Nobody is hiding anything but it's not exactly obvious or straight forward for the general wine public.
And, depending on the wine itself and all the cooperage details, some oak that's been used a few times can still clash with and detract from a wine. Other oak that's brand new can integrate and take a supporting role, not doing imparting awkward or obnoxious. So, some wines that are 100% new oak don't come across as "oaky" to most people, and some wines in "100% neutral oak" come across as disgusting to some people. <ahem> Good winemakers will be building on their knowledge and experience what barrels are appropriate for which wines.
I stopped talking about percentage of new wood in my wines because the difference between 500L and 228L is so large. And 20 months in a puncheon means that my second fill barrels have seen two vintages pass before they are used again.
That's been one of the interesting parts being a relatively new consumer, reading between the lines trying to understand why a producer is highlighting certain aspects. While transparency is nice (i'm a nerd, I love data), I appreciate wine being presented in a representative way. I did not get the sense from the 17 Ribbon Ridge that a lot of oak was used, so had it been sold that way I would, as an admitted novice, been a little confused. I tend to think that a producer highlighting new oak is using that as a selling point because their product will match expectations.
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Re: Three OR pinot comparisons

#40 Post by Marcus Goodfellow »

Brian Be wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 11:01 pm
Marcus Goodfellow wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 6:29 pm
Wes Barton wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 5:10 pm

And, depending on the wine itself and all the cooperage details, some oak that's been used a few times can still clash with and detract from a wine. Other oak that's brand new can integrate and take a supporting role, not doing imparting awkward or obnoxious. So, some wines that are 100% new oak don't come across as "oaky" to most people, and some wines in "100% neutral oak" come across as disgusting to some people. <ahem> Good winemakers will be building on their knowledge and experience what barrels are appropriate for which wines.
I stopped talking about percentage of new wood in my wines because the difference between 500L and 228L is so large. And 20 months in a puncheon means that my second fill barrels have seen two vintages pass before they are used again.
That's been one of the interesting parts being a relatively new consumer, reading between the lines trying to understand why a producer is highlighting certain aspects. While transparency is nice (i'm a nerd, I love data), I appreciate wine being presented in a representative way. I did not get the sense from the 17 Ribbon Ridge that a lot of oak was used, so had it been sold that way I would, as an admitted novice, been a little confused. I tend to think that a producer highlighting new oak is using that as a selling point because their product will match expectations.
That’s an interesting idea. While I hadn’t thought of oak being used that way, it makes sense. I highlight vineyard, as does Jim(I would guess), because I believe that will meet expectations. I would guess that both of us choose vessels that we feel aids in highlighting the site.
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Re: Three OR pinot comparisons

#41 Post by brigcampbell »

Brian, I see your comment regarding new oak as a selling point relevant in the napa cab world. Also because new oak cost so much.

How about 200% new oak pinot noir? [wow.gif]
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Re: Three OR pinot comparisons

#42 Post by Richard T r i m p i »

brigcampbell wrote: May 3rd, 2021, 6:39 am How about 200% new oak pinot noir? [wow.gif]
Image

Some fine discussion about oak here. Stems, WC and Oak....I've definitely mixed them up and surely will again. I've enjoyed 50% "new" that weren't bothersome at all....and 0% that screamed of wood. Almost given up asking about it. Early judgments are also problematic....sometimes the young Pinot seems overpowered and the next day (year, 5 years, more, etc.), it's fine. I wind up trusting the producer and experience nearly as much as my palate. Such an incredibly tricky balancing act to predict what a particular barrel (lot) might do and whether the effects will be too little, too much or just right. Not to mention the vagaries of the consumer with many loving oak, and some shying away.

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Re: Three OR pinot comparisons

#43 Post by Marcus Goodfellow »

My turning point was in accepting that a lot of Grand Cru and Premier Cru Burgundy is raised in high percentages of new wood.

I also saw that the first vintage that I felt the new barriques were best in my wines was 2007. Prior to that, they were(IMO) there to be blended away so that I could have the 1 and 2 fill barrels that I preferred. 2007 helped me to realize that I did not agree with the “big wines can handle new wood” idea.

As I moved to wines more focused on dry extract and lower alcohols, as well as bigger barrels, I started to see the wines absorb the wood in a different way. It also became obvious that Durant vineyard, with the deeper volcanic soils, typically has plenty of texture and richness, and does not have the same bittering components found in the wines from shallower soils like Whistling Ridge and Temperance Hill. Durant and Fir Crest both accumulate sugars the quickest, and we work hard to get them ripe without letting the Brix escalate but it rarely seems a good idea, even at high whole cluster to put them into new wood.

Whistling Ridge and Temperance Hill are almost the opposite. Both are wind affected, so skins are thicker and more bitter. Both get lots of sun exposure on the fruit increasing quality of flavor and tannin but also increasing tannins. And both accumulate sugars late, and while Temperance Hill will generally not be ripe until the potential alcohols are 13-13.5%, but at Whistling Ridge Pinot Noir can be ready to pick at 12.0-13.0% and those wines, rather than being overwhelmed by the new wood, absorb and integrate the 500L puncheons remarkably well.
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Re: Three OR pinot comparisons

#44 Post by brigcampbell »

Marcus Goodfellow wrote: May 3rd, 2021, 8:29 am My turning point was in accepting that a lot of Grand Cru and Premier Cru Burgundy is raised in high percentages of new wood.
DRC is 100% new oak

I've tasted 3-4 bottles, with 20 years of age, and I'd never guess that.
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Re: Three OR pinot comparisons

#45 Post by Jim Anderson »

brigcampbell wrote: May 3rd, 2021, 10:03 am
Marcus Goodfellow wrote: May 3rd, 2021, 8:29 am My turning point was in accepting that a lot of Grand Cru and Premier Cru Burgundy is raised in high percentages of new wood.
DRC is 100% new oak

I've tasted 3-4 bottles, with 20 years of age, and I'd never guess that.
Tons of Burgundies are.
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Re: Three OR pinot comparisons

#46 Post by Dav1d S@wyer »

Mattstolz wrote: May 1st, 2021, 4:59 pm of the three wineries, I think in general Patricia Green benefits the most from a decent amount of cellar time, all the way up and down the lineup. they evolve really well and are pretty big as far as Oregon goes for the first few years. it makes me sometimes feel exactly as you described but it incorporates so well over time and really smooths the edges and integrates well.

for the record, im not saying that Goodfellow does NOT benefit from aging. but I think you get a better sense of the wines from Goodfellow right outta the gate than you do PGC due to the style.
Agree with Matt's conclusions completely. PGC wines NEED time before they integrate and really show their stuff in my experiences. Goodfellow wines are certainly much better with age but they are more approachable young than PGC. I don't think Eyrie really shows well young either FWIW.
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Re: Three OR pinot comparisons

#47 Post by Marcus Goodfellow »

Jim Anderson wrote: May 3rd, 2021, 10:16 am
brigcampbell wrote: May 3rd, 2021, 10:03 am
Marcus Goodfellow wrote: May 3rd, 2021, 8:29 am My turning point was in accepting that a lot of Grand Cru and Premier Cru Burgundy is raised in high percentages of new wood.
DRC is 100% new oak

I've tasted 3-4 bottles, with 20 years of age, and I'd never guess that.
Tons of Burgundies are.
DRC at 100% new wood and 100% whole cluster was definitely one that changed my ideas about new wood.
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Re: Three OR pinot comparisons

#48 Post by brigcampbell »

Marcus Goodfellow wrote: May 3rd, 2021, 5:52 pm
Jim Anderson wrote: May 3rd, 2021, 10:16 am
brigcampbell wrote: May 3rd, 2021, 10:03 am

DRC is 100% new oak

I've tasted 3-4 bottles, with 20 years of age, and I'd never guess that.
Tons of Burgundies are.
DRC at 100% new wood and 100% whole cluster was definitely one that changed my ideas about new wood.
Falls into the category of "don't try this at home" or "your mileage may vary".

They've definitely got it dialed in.
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Re: Three OR pinot comparisons

#49 Post by Richard T r i m p i »

brigcampbell wrote: May 3rd, 2021, 7:17 pm
Marcus Goodfellow wrote: May 3rd, 2021, 5:52 pm
Jim Anderson wrote: May 3rd, 2021, 10:16 am Tons of Burgundies are.
DRC at 100% new wood and 100% whole cluster was definitely one that changed my ideas about new wood.
Falls into the category of "don't try this at home" or "your mileage may vary".
They've definitely got it dialed in.
In my very limited DRC experience, when young...it's reminded me of somewhat oaky, robust Cali Pinot. The magic doesn't happen until it ages IMHO. And yes, your mileage will vary.

RT

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Re: Three OR pinot comparisons

#50 Post by Todd Hamina »

Marcus Goodfellow wrote: May 3rd, 2021, 5:52 pm
Jim Anderson wrote: May 3rd, 2021, 10:16 am
brigcampbell wrote: May 3rd, 2021, 10:03 am

DRC is 100% new oak

I've tasted 3-4 bottles, with 20 years of age, and I'd never guess that.
Tons of Burgundies are.
DRC at 100% new wood and 100% whole cluster was definitely one that changed my ideas about new wood.
That's close to 100% accurate, but not completely. There's always some wiggle room for less.

And we mortals can't get the same wood they do.
Vineyard Specialist at Berkshire Hathaway Home Services Northwest Real Estate & Co-Owner at Biggio Hamina Cellars
-Toddhamina

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