Antonio Galloni launches preview scoring.

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Antonio Galloni launches preview scoring.

#1 Post by Jörgen Lindström Carlvik »

According to an Email, signed by Vinous co-founder James Forsyth, sent to US importers and possibly retailers, they can, at an un-disclosed cost (reportedly USD2000 a month), get access to Vinous scores 48 hours before they are published. Pretty nasty, if true, IMHO.
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Re: Antonio Galloni launches preview scoring.

#2 Post by Philip N. Jones »

Not good. If true, it certainly reflects on independence in journalism. Or the lack thereof.

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Re: Antonio Galloni launches preview scoring.

#3 Post by Brian G r a f s t r o m »

Jörgen Lindström Carlvik wrote: April 26th, 2021, 3:29 pm According to an Email, signed by Vinous co-founder James Forsyth, sent to US importers and possibly retailers, they can, at an un-disclosed cost (reportedly USD2000 a month), get access to Vinous scores 48 hours before they are published. Pretty nasty, if true, IMHO.
Did you get the email? Can we see what it says?
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Re: Antonio Galloni launches preview scoring.

#4 Post by ybarselah »

Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote: April 26th, 2021, 3:49 pm
Jörgen Lindström Carlvik wrote: April 26th, 2021, 3:29 pm According to an Email, signed by Vinous co-founder James Forsyth, sent to US importers and possibly retailers, they can, at an un-disclosed cost (reportedly USD2000 a month), get access to Vinous scores 48 hours before they are published. Pretty nasty, if true, IMHO.
Did you get the email? Can we see what it says?

it's in the first post:
According to an Email, signed by Vinous co-founder James Forsyth, sent to US importers and possibly retailers, they can, at an un-disclosed cost (reportedly USD2000 a month), get access to Vinous scores 48 hours before they are published.
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Re: Antonio Galloni launches preview scoring.

#5 Post by Brian G r a f s t r o m »

ybarselah wrote: April 26th, 2021, 3:52 pm
Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote: April 26th, 2021, 3:49 pm
Jörgen Lindström Carlvik wrote: April 26th, 2021, 3:29 pm According to an Email, signed by Vinous co-founder James Forsyth, sent to US importers and possibly retailers, they can, at an un-disclosed cost (reportedly USD2000 a month), get access to Vinous scores 48 hours before they are published. Pretty nasty, if true, IMHO.
Did you get the email? Can we see what it says?

it's in the first post:
According to an Email, signed by Vinous co-founder James Forsyth, sent to US importers and possibly retailers, they can, at an un-disclosed cost (reportedly USD2000 a month), get access to Vinous scores 48 hours before they are published.
I'm not as dumb as I look. I don't want somebody telling me what it says, I want to read it for myself.
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Re: Antonio Galloni launches preview scoring.

#6 Post by Mel Hill »

People are saying.....

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Re: Antonio Galloni launches preview scoring.

#7 Post by ybarselah »

Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote: April 26th, 2021, 3:54 pm
ybarselah wrote: April 26th, 2021, 3:52 pm
Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote: April 26th, 2021, 3:49 pm

Did you get the email? Can we see what it says?

it's in the first post:
According to an Email, signed by Vinous co-founder James Forsyth, sent to US importers and possibly retailers, they can, at an un-disclosed cost (reportedly USD2000 a month), get access to Vinous scores 48 hours before they are published.
I'm not as dumb as I look. I don't want somebody telling me what it says, I want to read it for myself.
are you an importer or possibly a retailer?
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Re: Antonio Galloni launches preview scoring.

#8 Post by crickey »

If you are a VM subscriber, you can see the email, which Jorgen (sorry, I don't know how to do umlauts) reproduced there. It says pretty much what he said it says.
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#9 Post by Jörgen Lindström Carlvik »

ITB. www.brixwine.se

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Re: Antonio Galloni launches preview scoring.

#10 Post by Brian G r a f s t r o m »

Thanks, Jorgen.


Pretty interesting. So, now, there will be "haves" and "have nots" w/r/t Vinous.

Looks like Vinous is hopping into bed, and under the covers, with importers and "possibly retailers." Would the 48 hour head-start be valuable to importers? Is that enough time for them to do anything with the information? Retailers, on the other hand ... [popcorn.gif] [popcorn.gif] [popcorn.gif] .
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Re: Antonio Galloni launches preview scoring.

#11 Post by D@vid Bu3ker »

Scores are yet again for suckers.
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Re: Antonio Galloni launches preview scoring.

#12 Post by Max S. »

D@vid Bu3ker wrote: April 26th, 2021, 4:09 pm Scores are yet again for suckers.
I feel like I get value out of them, but I also look at them like buckets (A+, A, A-, etc). I also look for track record, too. If I was able to try more, I think I'd share your (and many others' on this board) opinion as well. It is a handy guideline for me.
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Re: Antonio Galloni launches preview scoring.

#13 Post by larry schaffer »

Is this was Jeb was talking about with his post last week?

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Re: Antonio Galloni launches preview scoring.

#14 Post by Mel Hill »

larry schaffer wrote: April 26th, 2021, 4:33 pm Is this was Jeb was talking about with his post last week?

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Due to a recent email sent to the trade by another leading wine reviewing publication, which involves special access to reviews before subscribers, among other things, I think it is a good time to lay out our ethics policy at JebDunnuck.com and where we stand.
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Re: Antonio Galloni launches preview scoring.

#15 Post by John Morris »

Back in the 80s/early 90s, Parker offered faxed subscriptions. I know retailers on the West Coast who subscribed. The print newsletter came second class, so they had a week's jump on customer subscribers.

But it's an even more irksome practice in the internet age, where mail delays aren't an issue.
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#16 Post by T. Altmayer »

More reasons to give out big scores as big scores will drive traffic to retailers who pay for the service.
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#17 Post by brigcampbell »

Wouldn't it be more profitable for vinous to just buy the wines they are scoring highly and then flip after they publish?

They wouldn't even need to take possession.

It's a nice touch for the regular subscribers that helped AG from the beginning, your support for Vinous helps increase the cost of wine you'll be purchasing.

Waiting for a winebid-esque statement "you've been screaming for this and now it's here!"
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#18 Post by M.Kaplan »

John Morris wrote: April 26th, 2021, 4:39 pm Back in the 80s/early 90s, Parker offered faxed subscriptions. I know retailers on the West Coast who subscribed. The print newsletter came second class, so they had a week's jump on customer subscribers.

But it's an even more irksome practice in the internet age, where mail delays aren't an issue.
Parker made fax subscriptions and expedited mail available to all subscribers. As you note, this was in the 80’s/early 90’s when the Wine Advocate still claimed to be an independent consumers guide to fine wine. Now? TWA and Vinuous are hype machines for producers, with whom they have business relationships. The claimed independence is a relic of history (if it wasn’t a sales myth all along). The figleaf of independence has been gone for a long time.
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Re: Antonio Galloni launches preview scoring.

#19 Post by Sh@n A »

M.Kaplan wrote: April 26th, 2021, 4:52 pm TWA and Vinuous are hype machines for producers, with whom they have business relationships.
Can you please explain these business relationships?
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#20 Post by D@vid Bu3ker »

M.Kaplan wrote: April 26th, 2021, 4:52 pm
John Morris wrote: April 26th, 2021, 4:39 pm Back in the 80s/early 90s, Parker offered faxed subscriptions. I know retailers on the West Coast who subscribed. The print newsletter came second class, so they had a week's jump on customer subscribers.

But it's an even more irksome practice in the internet age, where mail delays aren't an issue.
Parker made fax subscriptions and expedited mail available to all subscribers. As you note, this was in the 80’s/early 90’s when the Wine Advocate still claimed to be an independent consumers guide to fine wine. Now? TWA and Vinuous are hype machines for producers, with whom they have business relationships. The claimed independence is a relic of history (if it wasn’t a sales myth all along). The figleaf of independence has been gone for a long time.
As much as I think “preview subscriptions” are a complete scam, do you have proof of the business relationships you speak of?
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Re: Antonio Galloni launches preview scoring.

#21 Post by M.Kaplan »

—Mark

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#22 Post by Mattstolz »

im surprised by this. it seems fairly off brand for Galloni to me.

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#23 Post by Kirk.Grant »

Sh@n A wrote: April 26th, 2021, 4:57 pm
M.Kaplan wrote: April 26th, 2021, 4:52 pm TWA and Vinuous are hype machines for producers, with whom they have business relationships.
Can you please explain these business relationships?
Well when one business finds another business' "product" likely to cause a "rise" in their profit...

they send an email letting them know that it's possible on a "date" in the future there could be a chance for both of them to increase the chance for success during "peak" sales times of the year.
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#24 Post by John Morris »

M.Kaplan wrote: April 26th, 2021, 4:52 pm
John Morris wrote: April 26th, 2021, 4:39 pm Back in the 80s/early 90s, Parker offered faxed subscriptions. I know retailers on the West Coast who subscribed. The print newsletter came second class, so they had a week's jump on customer subscribers.

But it's an even more irksome practice in the internet age, where mail delays aren't an issue.
Parker made fax subscriptions and expedited mail available to all subscribers. As you note, this was in the 80’s/early 90’s when the Wine Advocate still claimed to be an independent consumers guide to fine wine. ....
A very good point.
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Re: Antonio Galloni launches preview scoring.

#25 Post by John Morris »

Sh@n A wrote: April 26th, 2021, 4:57 pm
M.Kaplan wrote: April 26th, 2021, 4:52 pm TWA and Vinuous are hype machines for producers, with whom they have business relationships.
Can you please explain these business relationships?
The publications' events businesses are dependent on producers participating and contributing wine.
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Re: Antonio Galloni launches preview scoring.

#26 Post by David_K »

John Morris wrote: April 26th, 2021, 5:39 pm
Sh@n A wrote: April 26th, 2021, 4:57 pm
M.Kaplan wrote: April 26th, 2021, 4:52 pm TWA and Vinuous are hype machines for producers, with whom they have business relationships.
Can you please explain these business relationships?
The publications' events businesses are dependent on producers participating and contributing wine.
Right. I'm not sure this makes any difference from a consumer perspective. The ship has long since sailed on independence.
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#27 Post by ybarselah »

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Re: Antonio Galloni launches preview scoring.

#28 Post by Scott Watkins »

Kirk.Grant wrote: April 26th, 2021, 5:28 pm
Sh@n A wrote: April 26th, 2021, 4:57 pm
M.Kaplan wrote: April 26th, 2021, 4:52 pm TWA and Vinuous are hype machines for producers, with whom they have business relationships.
Can you please explain these business relationships?
Well when one business finds another business' "product" likely to cause a "rise" in their profit...

they send an email letting them know that it's possible on a "date" in the future there could be a chance for both of them to increase the chance for success during "peak" sales times of the year.
Indeed, I've never in my life flipped a bottle for profit but tell me 2 day's in advance what wines are 100 pointers well show me the money!
Last edited by Scott Watkins on April 26th, 2021, 7:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#29 Post by bruced »

Mattstolz wrote: April 26th, 2021, 5:02 pm im surprised by this. it seems fairly off brand for Galloni to me.
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#30 Post by Br1an Th0rne »

The lack of communication from Vinous is almost comical. Brings back memories!

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Re: Antonio Galloni launches preview scoring.

#31 Post by Steve Costigan »

Greatly anticipating the 1986 CA white zin retrospective. Got a cellar full approaching maturity that I can turn into cash. Liquid gold.

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Re: Antonio Galloni launches preview scoring.

#32 Post by Brent S »

This is so disappointing to read. Recently Antonio joined us here on a 2017 Barolo thread defending himself. Let’s see. I’ll reserve judgement until then.
Last edited by Brent S on April 26th, 2021, 9:10 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Antonio Galloni launches preview scoring.

#33 Post by Todd F r e n c h »

Brent S wrote: April 26th, 2021, 8:56 pm This is so disappointing to read. That fact that Antonio hasn’t jumped in here to comment might really be the defining statement about this
It was just posted today, I'd give some time. I'm guessing the investors put some pressure on for additional revenue streams, who knows
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Re: Antonio Galloni launches preview scoring.

#34 Post by Rodrigo B »

Brent S wrote: April 26th, 2021, 8:56 pm This is so disappointing to read. That fact that Antonio hasn’t jumped in here to comment might really be the defining statement about this
To be balanced, this has only been posted on here for a few hours and it’s not like Vinous folks are monitoring this site 24/7. Hopefully Antonio, or someone else from Vinous, comes on here to comment
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#35 Post by Max S. »

Rodrigo B wrote: April 26th, 2021, 9:02 pm
Brent S wrote: April 26th, 2021, 8:56 pm This is so disappointing to read. That fact that Antonio hasn’t jumped in here to comment might really be the defining statement about this
To be balanced, this has only been posted on here for a few hours and it’s not like Vinous folks are monitoring this site 24/7. Hopefully Antonio, or someone else from Vinous, comes on here to comment
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#36 Post by Brent S »

This really doesn’t seem like something he would willingly do, but he has bills to pay like all of us. Not saying it’s okay.
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Re: Antonio Galloni launches preview scoring.

#37 Post by Rodrigo B »

Max S. wrote: April 26th, 2021, 9:06 pm
Rodrigo B wrote: April 26th, 2021, 9:02 pm
Brent S wrote: April 26th, 2021, 8:56 pm This is so disappointing to read. That fact that Antonio hasn’t jumped in here to comment might really be the defining statement about this
To be balanced, this has only been posted on here for a few hours and it’s not like Vinous folks are monitoring this site 24/7. Hopefully Antonio, or someone else from Vinous, comes on here to comment
When do we bring out the pitchforks? I hope it's soon. I just got a new pitchfork.
Good question. I'd say after a reasonable amount of time has passed, which is pretty vague and I myself don't really have a clear answer as to what constitutes that unfortunately. Though I do have some nice shiny torches at the ready to go with your new pitchfork when the time comes [stirthepothal.gif]
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#38 Post by Mark Maddox »

And what do you burn, apart from witches?

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Re: Antonio Galloni launches preview scoring.

#39 Post by John Ammons »

Vinous should be clamoring for a Diamond Tier subscription to further accent this business model: 72 hour advance info for $3,000/month! [snort.gif]

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Re: Antonio Galloni launches preview scoring.

#40 Post by Andy Sc »

That's so disappointing. It does not make a big difference for me as a Vinous consumer (as 97% of what they review and I'm interested in, hits the market a later point in time anyway) but that really really sucks.
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Re: Antonio Galloni launches preview scoring.

#41 Post by davidlown »

Todd F r e n c h wrote: April 26th, 2021, 9:00 pm
Brent S wrote: April 26th, 2021, 8:56 pm This is so disappointing to read. That fact that Antonio hasn’t jumped in here to comment might really be the defining statement about this
It was just posted today, I'd give some time. I'm guessing the investors put some pressure on for additional revenue streams, who knows
Galloni needs to have the right to run his own business for better or worse. We don’t know if he is profitable or losing money and we dont have the right to know this. His business model of hiring the all stars of the industry versus being a sole proprietorship / journalist may be extremely lucrative or it may be more than he should of bit off or maybe it’s barely profitable while he works really hard.

The other important subject to bring out is this underlying theme that always gets brought up whenever critic scores gets brought up on the forum; is the system of tasting reviews and scoring fair/correct? Should reviewers buy the wine themselves? Should they be blind tasted? Should they drink them out of barrel? Are they biased to certain producers? Do the reviewers know the wine region enough? Do the reviewers have a biased palate? Should others see the reviewers earlier if they pay more? These are all interesting discussion points but in my opinion it’s another subject that is impossible to figure out. In my opinion it’s an impossible mission to truly pull of idealistically and fairly. Unlike the car industry where there are only about 300 different cars annually and they can be borrowed for a review there must be 30k different wines and the bottle must be opened for each reviewer.

In summary I think it’s good that we know this information and everyone has the right to do what they want however I also think we should all acknowledge some of the underlying components of this niche industry.

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Re: Antonio Galloni launches preview scoring.

#42 Post by Jürgen Steinke »

How many subscribers does vinous have? Is Galloni under financial pressure? If not this is just stupid. It makes so clear that subscribers are not in the first class seats but merchants, importers, producers etc. To me it was always obvious that consumers do not benefit from the reviews because you had to pay more every year for wines you loved. And beside that fine wine became a subject for speculation. All this has little to nothing to do with the love of fine wine and food.

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Re: Antonio Galloni launches preview scoring.

#43 Post by davidlown »

Jurgen, you have every right to say what you want to but I don’t think it’s fair to assume that once antonio galloni receives enough subscribers he should bypass the free market system. I don’t know but my guess is his business is a bit more challenging than you would guess. Keeping his all star reviewers happy and retained based on a model that every 1000 subscribers only gets about $120k of revenue is not easy. That’s why most who does this are sole proprietors or close to. Honestly I don’t know galloni at all but my readings of him seems like he does love food and wine a lot and my guess is he’s just like any other person trying to make a nice living.

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Re: Antonio Galloni launches preview scoring.

#44 Post by Andy Sc »

But it's contrary to everything he stands for. Let's be honest, retailer would only subscribe to get a financial benefit out of the insider information (buy more high scoring wines and sell them with the higher markups high scoring wines allow for). So it's cleary designed to screw the consumer, Galloni or Martin champion.

There are additional revenue sources, mainly speeking fees/event fees to sweeten the deal but not screwing your consumers.
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Re: Antonio Galloni launches preview scoring.

#45 Post by Tvrtko C. »

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Re: Antonio Galloni launches preview scoring.

#46 Post by davidlown »

Andy Sc wrote: April 27th, 2021, 1:52 am But it's contrary to everything he stands for. Let's be honest, retailer would only subscribe to get a financial benefit out of the insider information (buy more high scoring wines and sell them with the higher markups high scoring wines allow for). So it's cleary designed to screw the consumer, Galloni or Martin champion.

There are additional revenue sources, mainly speeking fees/event fees to sweeten the deal but not screwing your consumers.
I’m sure it was not designed to screw the customer and I would guess it was designed to produce more revenue. Regarding your point that it screws the customer I do see what you are saying though however let’s be specific. The only thing I can think of how it could affect a normal user is Gallonis 100 point scores. Yes 100 point gallonis will not be as accessible at old pricing but the reality today is in the past 5 years getting unicorns on wine searcher alerts or other means has gone away to a large degree anyway. The world is much more transparent and real time so I think this won’t affect me much. Besides these very few wines I don’t see how it hurts me as a vinous member having retailers or importers knowing the scores a couple of weeks early. But your point is a real theoretical negative to the average user hiwever I’ll go back to my original point that galloni needs to be able to run his business and it is not unethical or with malintent to offer this and his business is not some money juggernaut like Amazon that we should all have the right to limit.

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Re: Antonio Galloni launches preview scoring.

#47 Post by Jürgen Steinke »

David,

what do you think is the benefit for people ITB to have the scores 2 days earlier? I mean why should I pay 2.000/month if there is no or little benefit? Just curiosity? Would this be a clever business model?

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Re: Antonio Galloni launches preview scoring.

#48 Post by Mark Golodetz »

I cannot find it on the Vinous web site but then I don’t particularly care.

The only two months it might justify that kind of premium or when California and Bordeaux futures are reviewed. So ubiquitous are the three figure scores and high nineties, that unless a completely unknown wine gets a high score, it probably will not make a difference.

Case in point: Neal Martin gives the Palmer 2018 100 points. It did not really move the market, despite the fact that the descriptors suggest that it was even more special than the normal run of the mill 100 point wine.

“The headline in the Margaux appellation is the sui generis that is Palmer, or, to use Thomas Duroux’s words, a freak. It dazzled not only with its complexity and audacity, but because no 2018 came close in terms of blossoming over not just 24 hours after opening, but 48 hours. I penned my tasting note and ruminated over this wine for many hours, finally nailing my colors to the mast and deciding that while I had erred on the side of caution from barrel, since it could easily have tipped over into something quite vulgar, in bottle it reveals itself as a legend in the making. Although I was familiar with the background, I spoke to Duroux, and our candid conversation gave me a deeper understanding about this 2018.”
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Re: Antonio Galloni launches preview scoring.

#49 Post by Robert.A.Jr. »

davidlown wrote: April 27th, 2021, 3:32 am
Andy Sc wrote: April 27th, 2021, 1:52 am But it's contrary to everything he stands for. Let's be honest, retailer would only subscribe to get a financial benefit out of the insider information (buy more high scoring wines and sell them with the higher markups high scoring wines allow for). So it's cleary designed to screw the consumer, Galloni or Martin champion.

There are additional revenue sources, mainly speeking fees/event fees to sweeten the deal but not screwing your consumers.
I’m sure it was not designed to screw the customer and I would guess it was designed to produce more revenue. Regarding your point that it screws the customer I do see what you are saying though however let’s be specific. The only thing I can think of how it could affect a normal user is Gallonis 100 point scores. Yes 100 point gallonis will not be as accessible at old pricing but the reality today is in the past 5 years getting unicorns on wine searcher alerts or other means has gone away to a large degree anyway. The world is much more transparent and real time so I think this won’t affect me much. Besides these very few wines I don’t see how it hurts me as a vinous member having retailers or importers knowing the scores a couple of weeks early. But your point is a real theoretical negative to the average user hiwever I’ll go back to my original point that galloni needs to be able to run his business and it is not unethical or with malintent to offer this and his business is not some money juggernaut like Amazon that we should all have the right to limit.
I do not think you have framed the issue correctly. I’m sure Antonio baloney* did not intentionally set out to screw the consumer; however, that is exactly the consequence. Perhaps it is the law of unintended consequences here, but that is exactly what occurs in this scenario.

Here’s a very simple hypothetical: Zachy’s gets the advance notice that several lower production wines scored 100. That gives Zachy’s the opportunity and the motivation to do two things. The first is to quickly accumulate as much of that wine as possible if they think it will sell out fast. The second thing they will do is price it accordingly, which means higher. Neither of these things is good for consumers. Incidentally, since you commented on it, I do not believe it is limited to 100-point wines. Many of us consumers chase QPRs as well. Imagine Neal scored the 2020 Sociando a 98 or the Lanessan a 96.

It is my opinion that Vinuous has essentially become a shill for the industry. Antonio’s notes are often silly and complete hype-prose (See Bingo thread). Scores have also become inflated. And with this new move, it seems clear that he places business over the consumer. Now as you note, that is entirely within their right. Private businesses can essentially do, within the bounds of the law, whatever they want to do. The question is, how will consumers react. Personally I would withdraw my subscription immediately, but I’ve never bothered to subscribe to this publication. Sadly, most consumers will never even know that he is doing this.

* Siri dictation. Too classic to change. That’s my thought anyway.
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Re: Antonio Galloni launches preview scoring.

#50 Post by dougwilder »

larry schaffer wrote: April 26th, 2021, 4:33 pm Is this was Jeb was talking about with his post last week?

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