I have a wine fridge on order and being ready to set up delivery in the next couple weeks.
I was hoping someone here could fill me in on whether an estimate I received from a local foundation specialist who is a remodeler seems reasonable or if the guy is trying to take me for a ride and rip me off. The crawl space you have to get to by going down to the basement; it is about 18-24" of height to maneuver in. Here is the estimate I got; I cut out some of the unnecessary words talking about the layout of the house which is irrelevant, etc. -
Beam: The addition of potentially 1200 (to 2400, for two fridges)… could potentially cause a dip in the flooring in this area. There is sufficient pier support of the main girder running front to rear, but an additional beam is recommended. The beam will be constructed of two 2x10 boards and supported by adjustable steel post jacks approximately 2’ off the girder. $856.80
Sister: The 2x10 joists in this area should be sistered from one load point to the next… $816.00
Total $1,672.80
I am willing to pay if it sounds reasonable… I also have the option of putting the fridge in the basement where it will sit on a concrete slab set on plain ol’ earth which could save me this money but mean no display piece in the dining room and a lot more trips to the basement to hunt for vino. For what it is worth, the foundation specialist seemed to tell me that the floor could support the fridge without sistering etc., but that it would probably lead to a noticeable dip in the flooring in that area.
It sounds reasonable, but you always need 3 quotes, especially on a project like this. You get an idea of what pricing should be, and you have a chance to talk to 3 different guys about the project. If they all agree, go with the one that instills the most confidence in you.
The question as if it is needed is highly dependent on how your floor is supported and where the unit(s) will reside on that floor. If the units are to be placed near the existing beam or other load bearing structure that limits the moment arm, I wouldn’t expect significant a dip in the flooring for a single unit. I am assuming 16” spacing on your 2x10 joists and a 3/4 subfloor under your hardwood. Putting 2 units mid span and I might have more concern.
I have this type of floor set up and a blue star refrigerator and a subzero wine storage unit that are next to each other haven’t created any issues. Not sure of weight when fully loaded and they are against a load bearing wall with limited moment arm so may not be a valid comparison.
my last cellar required a structural engineer since it was on a raised foundation. Then my cellar guy followed his recommendations. Your price doesn’t seem bad. It’s spooky working in such cramped quarters. Sounds like you get off easy. I had to pay both—engineer and the construction guy.
Sounds reasonable to me. If it was a plumber or electrician crawling around under there doing skilled work, it would be $80/hour minimum, a skilled carpenter should earn no less. Sounds like at least one day each task for a single person. Two people might do it all in one day. Either way 16 manhours x $80 = $1280 labor, plus materials = about $2000. We’ve had a guy do windows, trim, floor, and door work, similar rates. The quality of work of a pro always makes it worth it imo. If you’ve used them before or they have good references, your call on alternative bids, but pricing here is in line in my experience.
I think it sounds pretty reasonable too. I don’t think the actual work will take that long, but dinking around in a 18-24" crawlspace is pretty nasty work, and figuring in materials and the fact it’s a small job (which many contractors avoid), the quote seems fair. I think the bigger question is whether it’s necessary at all. Seems like 1,200 lbs over roughly a 9 square foot area should be within the load rating for a floor, but I’m certainly not an expert in that area, and as I recall from your other post you’re in an older house. Better safe than sorry, I suppose.
This loading issue came up a few years ago. As I recall, it hinges in part on the direction of the joists and how far the cave is from a load-bearing wall.
It’s fine to think of it as 1200 pounds over 9 square feet when you’re considering, for example, the effect on a foundation which supports a large floor area. However, you also have to think of it as 300 pounds on each of four 2"x2" feet (or whatever the case may be), which could mean considering the ability of your floor to withstand crushing, your subfloor to span if the load comes down between joists, the ability of a single joist to potentially carry half the load of the fridge, etc. Lots of factors to consider when dealing with things like this, and the structural configuration in the area definitely comes into play.
Any full-size wine cabinet when full will exceed code requirements for floor loads in residential construction. Whether it will cause a problem is a different question. I have had 180 to 280 bottle units in multiple apartments over the years and never had an issue with dipping, cracking, collapsing or otherwise but I was quite careful with placement within the space given the structure considerations described in prior posts. I currently have a 180 bottle cabinet in an exterior corner of a wood-framed house (with another 140 bottles stacked in cases along the wall adjacent to the cabinet) and a 110-bottle unit mid-span in an upstairs room without any issues.
I also have the option of putting the fridge in the basement where it will sit on a concrete slab set on plain ol’ earth which could save me this money but mean no display piece in the dining room and a lot more trips to the basement to hunt for vino.
Do that.
Who wants a wine fridge in the dining room anyway? Seriously.
Well, I suppose I could expound upon the issues with getting to the basement here. The house was built in 1920 and the basement was likely put in in the 1950’s-1970’s, around the same time the asbestos-laden furnace was sealed in with earth (about 1/4 of the footprint of the home; the remaining 3/4 of the square footprint is the basement) and concrete was poured in below the house as a flooring for the basement. The basement - I could reach my hand over a ridge at about 7 feet off of the floor and there is earth there which is the crawl space. The gas heating unit and air handler and tankless water heater are down there as well. The doorway to enter the basement is quite narrow, and possibly too narrow to get the fridge into currently (I will measure when I get home today). The sump pump down there is regularly active after hard rains when water seeps in to the floor through the walls. The flooring was poured at a slight slope to ensure that the water goes to the sump pump reservoir when it hits the floor. I have a dehumidifier down there to maintain the relative humidity at 60%ish so that everything stored down there does not mildew. the somewhat shoddy stairs going down there can certainly handle 200 pounds, though with my 160 pound frame I at times wonder how much load they could actually take. Getting a 350 pound wine fridge down there along with one or two people to actually handle it as it is taken down would be a risky proposition to start with without rebuilding the stairs at the least, and possibly the door frame to go down there. I suppose the foundation guys who have looked at the home could weigh in on the stairs in the basement. The dehumidifier, a much smaller 50ish bottle wine fridge, and the tankless hot water heater are occupying the 3-prong outlets down there as well and I would have to have another grounded outlet installed down there for the new fridge.
Outside of all of those concerns, having to go down those steep and rickety stairs after having wine with friends to get more would be risky in and of itself.
The dining room is about 15x20 feet with a table that can accommodate 8 people and I have no space in the kitchen to put the fridge. It would certainly look out of place in the living room or the office space which can’t accommodate such a large appliance as it is spacewise. The upper floor of the house is just bedrooms and bathrooms and small closets.
Effectively I am trying to figure out what the “easiest” way to accommodate this fridge would be. If the basement is the least of all evils here I can put it down there, but there are plenty of downsides to doing it that way as it stands, and perhaps it would even be more expensive than having it in the dining room (I realize that this contradicts my earlier statement but really didn’t think it through in such detail until I created this post).