2020 Bordeaux

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YLee
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2020 Bordeaux

#1 Post by YLee »

I read two reports that 2020 vintage will be high quality and prices might be similar to 2019 or fall further. This is what I thought might happen and didnt go overboard with my 2019 purchases. Let's discuss!
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Re: 2020 Bordeaux

#2 Post by HenryB »

I'm expecting prices to come in line somewhere between 18/19. Wines that discounted heavily sold out on the morning, and moved quickly on the secondary market. I think some prices will be lower than 19 but that'll be mostly the wines that didnt discount heavily.

Remember, Latour 2013 had a chance to set a precedent by lowering their price against 2012 Latour and they chose not to - instead choosing to release in line.

I think O(15%) off 2018 pricing is probably about where most wines will come out, so 5-15% above 2019.


Bear in mind the way the system is architected, most of the chateau wont really feel the impact themselves anyway. Furthermore, Rhone 2019 releases were in line with historic pricing. Champagne mostly was as well? I'm no Burgundy or Italian expert but I didnt get any impression of decreased pricing there either, so why would Bordeaux single handedly buck the trend?


I hope I'm wrong, but I've learned to be cynical over the last few years :)



The problem with 2020 prices coming out lower than 19 is that you undermine the historic market, and suddenly all back wine looks 'expensive'. Decades of gains for the chateau will be eroded, and bear in mind many chateau are now 'professionally' owned, investors need to get their returns.


vested interest: I went pretty much as big as I could on 19, but had a sizeable 18 position as well.
Last edited by HenryB on April 9th, 2021, 5:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 2020 Bordeaux

#3 Post by Andy Sc »

Heard from people on the ground that 2020 is yet another very good vintage - probably not on the level of 2019 but still very good. Pricing for sure will not be on par with 2019 but higher. Yes, the hospitality industry is still in dire straits but the fine wine buying private customers are better of than a year and two years ago. I hear record demand here in central Europe from private clients for the most recent releases over the past few months.
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Re: 2020 Bordeaux

#4 Post by Taylor Broussard »

Personally I’m hopeful quality will be high in 2020 and prices affordable, just so I can have something positive come out of that horrific year. If so, I intend to be a buyer ... then open these over the decades and reflect upon a lost year.

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Re: 2020 Bordeaux

#5 Post by Aleks V »

It’s my sons birth year, so I’m certainly a buyer and will buy at least 1-2 first growths and a number of other classified growths / high end Pomerols. That said, I’ll still be pretty price sensitive, if numbers look like 2019 I’ll probably go hog wild on the Palmer, LMHB and VCC, otherwise will be more conservative. I though Palmer at $210 and $250 LMHB were screaming deals (and made my credit cards scream for mercy).
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Re: 2020 Bordeaux

#6 Post by Jeff Leve »

First off, nobody knows what will happen. But if you want a guess, 2020 will be more expensive than 2019.

Yields are lower in 2020, so less wine. Plus, the devastating frosts this week will reduce quantity for 2021. And the markets are up from last year, so buyers have more disposable income. Most importantly, the quality is said to be good all over the region. Starting Wednesday, I will have some idea of that as I begin tasting about 800 wines, assuming everything starts arriving on-time.

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Re: 2020 Bordeaux

#7 Post by Mark Golodetz »

If indeed 2020 is an excellent to great vintage, then there will be buyers. But I expect they’re be some resistance, as even with a small vintage, there is plenty of great wines from other vintages still waiting to get out of the negotiants’ cellars. Bordeaux has shown it can digest two to three excellent vintages, and apart from 2017, a vintage that I like and am backfilling, there are some really great years from 2014, and not a clunker in sight. Can they absorb six vintages? Not sure.
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Re: 2020 Bordeaux

#8 Post by HenryB »

Thanks Jeff, that's really insightful. I wasnt aware of the frost, and yes, that would definitely be an argument in terms of driving prices up. Is my lay understanding right that the negociant system partially insulates the chateau from end consumer pricing, as well? As they effectively can 'mandate' allocations to the negociants?

@Mark - agreed. There are a lot of back vintages still to be cleared out, but that's never stopped them before really. Perosnally I've been picking up some very good QPR 2019s which werent bought out on primary release. 18 bottles of Brainaire-Ducru my most recent.

@Aleks - I personally (only amateur view, no itb expertise) wouldnt expect LMHB and Palmer to come out comparable to last year's price. They sold out QUICKLY. Those are wines, imho, prime for pricing up. Palmer I only got 6 bottles from pre-purchasing, and I got 3 LMHB through BBR because someone turned down an allocation and BBR could give me 3 HB 3 LMHB.
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Re: 2020 Bordeaux

#9 Post by Paul @bbott »

With the lower quantities of 2020s coming through, and the potential for basic supply and demand economics to raise prices, I have actually revisited 2019 Bordeaux and backfilled a little in recent weeks.

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Re: 2020 Bordeaux

#10 Post by Aleks V »

HenryB wrote: April 9th, 2021, 8:58 am
@Aleks - I personally (only amateur view, no itb expertise) wouldnt expect LMHB and Palmer to come out comparable to last year's price. They sold out QUICKLY. Those are wines, imho, prime for pricing up. Palmer I only got 6 bottles from pre-purchasing, and I got 3 LMHB through BBR because someone turned down an allocation and BBR could give me 3 HB 3 LMHB.
HenryB- I think that’s likely accurate. I suppose when they are older I will have to explain to my children why daddy bought 1 first growth, 1 Palmer, 1LMHB, and 1 VCC for their birth years and multiple bottles of each in 2019. Hopefully they will have a good grasp of wine economics, if not guess I will tell them I decided to split the difference.


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Re: 2020 Bordeaux

#11 Post by HenryB »

as someone with a truly terrible birthyear of wine, I'd rather be given good wine than wine coincidentally the same age. If both are possible, great, but good wine trumps same age wine every time
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Re: 2020 Bordeaux

#12 Post by Paul McCourt »

I expect prices to pop upwards fairly solidly.
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Re: 2020 Bordeaux

#13 Post by KeithM »

2019 was released in the teeth of the COVID related severe global recession and US tariffs. 2020 is being released with an (uneven) global economic recovery and US tariffs off the table for now. Given a substantially better economy, less uncertainty, and poor yields across most of Bordeaux, it would be surprising if 2020 was released at 2019 or better prices.
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Re: 2020 Bordeaux

#14 Post by Jidhin R. »

Aleks V wrote: April 9th, 2021, 1:38 pm
HenryB wrote: April 9th, 2021, 8:58 am
@Aleks - I personally (only amateur view, no itb expertise) wouldnt expect LMHB and Palmer to come out comparable to last year's price. They sold out QUICKLY. Those are wines, imho, prime for pricing up. Palmer I only got 6 bottles from pre-purchasing, and I got 3 LMHB through BBR because someone turned down an allocation and BBR could give me 3 HB 3 LMHB.
HenryB- I think that’s likely accurate. I suppose when they are older I will have to explain to my children why daddy bought 1 first growth, 1 Palmer, 1LMHB, and 1 VCC for their birth years and multiple bottles of each in 2019. Hopefully they will have a good grasp of wine economics, if not guess I will tell them I decided to split the difference.


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Could always buy the less expensive stuff just for vintage/celebrations and have a complimentary better vintage accompany it to ensure some better wine?
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Re: 2020 Bordeaux

#15 Post by Aleks V »

HenryB wrote: April 9th, 2021, 1:47 pm as someone with a truly terrible birthyear of wine, I'd rather be given good wine than wine coincidentally the same age. If both are possible, great, but good wine trumps same age wine every time
Agreed - my kids are 2018 and 2020 birth years, so they will have good wine vintages, just more expensive vs 2019. Sorry, I should have explained that better...
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Re: 2020 Bordeaux

#16 Post by HenryB »

average em both out to a large stash of 19
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Re: 2020 Bordeaux

#17 Post by A Songeur »

While frost last week really harmed the Libournais (right bank) and the Sauternais, I doubt it can significantly harm left bank as it is so close to the sea. But Bordeaux never decreases price without a reason...
I had not bought any Bordeaux regularly since 2008 (although a few 2015 and a 6 pack of 2016) until the 2019 vintage where I bought half bottles given my age... this being the last year I purchase (the 2005s will take me until he Lord calls me since my almost everyday consumptions are Burgundy and to a lesser extend Riesling...).
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Re: 2020 Bordeaux

#18 Post by YLee »

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Re: 2020 Bordeaux

#19 Post by Andy Sc »

The first scores for the first growths are in - from JM Quarin, the french Bdx wine critic:

Lafite 98
Mouton 97
HB, Latour, Margaux 96

Quite good scores but not quite on the level of 16, 18 or 19.
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Re: 2020 Bordeaux

#20 Post by Chris Atkins »

Has Rudy K weighed in on this vintage yet?

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Re: 2020 Bordeaux

#21 Post by HenryB »

Andy Sc wrote: April 18th, 2021, 9:45 pm The first scores for the first growths are in - from JM Quarin, the french Bdx wine critic:

Lafite 98
Mouton 97
HB, Latour, Margaux 96

Quite good scores but not quite on the level of 16, 18 or 19.
If those scores are consistent with other critics if anything that will place some serious downward pressure. 96 on margaux and haut brion? Ouch!
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Re: 2020 Bordeaux

#22 Post by Glenn P. »

2020 may be the first vintage that I will not purchase...not because it isn't good, but because I am 59 and I am "woke" to my wine mortality reality. It helps that I have a lot of Bordeaux to drink over the next 10-15 years already, but at some point you just have to say "enough". Who knows, maybe when I'm 70 I'll purchase some 2020 if it is available, but no more futures...that is for sure.
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Re: 2020 Bordeaux

#23 Post by Andy Sc »

HenryB wrote: April 18th, 2021, 10:58 pm
Andy Sc wrote: April 18th, 2021, 9:45 pm The first scores for the first growths are in - from JM Quarin, the french Bdx wine critic:

Lafite 98
Mouton 97
HB, Latour, Margaux 96

Quite good scores but not quite on the level of 16, 18 or 19.
If those scores are consistent with other critics if anything that will place some serious downward pressure. 96 on margaux and haut brion? Ouch!
A quick look at his other scores shows that 2020 will be better than 2017 but not on a level of the other vintages. But of course it's very early and just one critic. Let's wait and see...
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Re: 2020 Bordeaux

#24 Post by HenryB »

well, its a good first start for my wallet ;-) I wasnt looking forward to having to keep the first growths I bought last year, but if they're not a great vintage, then I can save all that money so huzzah!
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Re: 2020 Bordeaux

#25 Post by Jeff_M. »

Should have more scores coming very very soon.
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Re: 2020 Bordeaux

#26 Post by HenryB »

just got an email from Laithwaites about all the spare 2019 stock they have. I'd say theres very little of the prime buying - e.g. Mouton, Palmer, Pontet, etc, but for example they've got 19 cases of Canon near enough at the original price. A bit of a surprise to me. That could apply some interesting downward pressure.
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Re: 2020 Bordeaux

#27 Post by JulianD »

Jeff Leve wrote: April 9th, 2021, 8:47 am First off, nobody knows what will happen. But if you want a guess, 2020 will be more expensive than 2019.

Yields are lower in 2020, so less wine. Plus, the devastating frosts this week will reduce quantity for 2021. And the markets are up from last year, so buyers have more disposable income. Most importantly, the quality is said to be good all over the region. Starting Wednesday, I will have some idea of that as I begin tasting about 800 wines, assuming everything starts arriving on-time.
Any early reads or updates?
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Re: 2020 Bordeaux

#28 Post by Jeff Leve »

JulianD wrote: April 19th, 2021, 7:59 am
Jeff Leve wrote: April 9th, 2021, 8:47 am First off, nobody knows what will happen. But if you want a guess, 2020 will be more expensive than 2019.

Yields are lower in 2020, so less wine. Plus, the devastating frosts this week will reduce quantity for 2021. And the markets are up from last year, so buyers have more disposable income. Most importantly, the quality is said to be good all over the region. Starting Wednesday, I will have some idea of that as I begin tasting about 800 wines, assuming everything starts arriving on-time.
Any early reads or updates?
Too soon. Ask me in a month. However, if you follow me on Instagram I try adding something on a daily basis.

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Re: 2020 Bordeaux

#29 Post by HenryB »

Well how was the lafite yoy
U had today compared to 2018 or 2019?
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Re: 2020 Bordeaux

#30 Post by O.G. Nikolai »

Don't think prices falling.
19 was an exception. Like 08 was.
20 prices will increase for sure.
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Re: 2020 Bordeaux

#31 Post by HenryB »

with no basis what soever, i expect 20 to be in line with 18. Outside of things like Lafleur aand the first growths, I think there's very little movement on the secondary market. Canon, Pontet, Chevalier, Berliquet (all of which I bought) are available at the same price now as they were EP. I think Rauzan Segla did move a bit and possibly Larcis Ducasse too
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Re: 2020 Bordeaux

#32 Post by Taylor Broussard »

HenryB wrote: April 19th, 2021, 1:59 pm with no basis what soever, i expect 20 to be in line with 18. Outside of things like Lafleur aand the first growths, I think there's very little movement on the secondary market. Canon, Pontet, Chevalier, Berliquet (all of which I bought) are available at the same price now as they were EP. I think Rauzan Segla did move a bit and possibly Larcis Ducasse too
Have any of these wines been delivered yet...? I think it's very possible that second tranche and later pricing for 2018 is similar to the initial first tranche price...but I would expect retail pricing to go up quite a bit especially if these are scored at the top band of their EP scores once reviewed from bottle. K&L is showing more Domaine de Chevalier pre-arrivals of several vintages back in stock (including 2009/2010/2016/2018). The pricing of the 2018 at $90 looks like a modest increase from the first tranche pricing. (15%+)

I would think that between 2016/18/19/20 the Bordelaise will have a lot of wine to sell, and it wouldn't be surprising to see an increase on 2019 pricing, but below or in-line with 2018 in order to keep interest in 2020.

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Re: 2020 Bordeaux

#33 Post by Mark Golodetz »

O.G. Nikolai wrote: April 19th, 2021, 1:47 pm Don't think prices falling.
19 was an exception. Like 08 was.
20 prices will increase for sure.
Agree but the Bordelais cannot expect to sell many if there is plenty of 2019 available at first tranche prices.
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Re: 2020 Bordeaux

#34 Post by Alexander Smith »

Mark Golodetz wrote: April 19th, 2021, 2:56 pm
O.G. Nikolai wrote: April 19th, 2021, 1:47 pm Don't think prices falling.
19 was an exception. Like 08 was.
20 prices will increase for sure.
Agree but the Bordelais cannot expect to sell many if there is plenty of 2019 available at first tranche prices.
Ah but that is where the wonderful marketing team come in....I believe I already read one of the first growths mention that have never had a trilogy like 18,19 and 20....and 20 could be the best... I bought a fair amount in 19...and I am still buying where I see deals pop up. I doubt they will release 20 at a similar price, if they do and the quality is there (eyes on you Jeff!) then I might buy in...but I have a wonderful way of getting excited every year, but agree it is all about prices...if similar to 2018 forget it...close to 2019 then I am a buyer...
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Re: 2020 Bordeaux

#35 Post by HenryB »

Taylor Broussard wrote: April 19th, 2021, 2:52 pm
HenryB wrote: April 19th, 2021, 1:59 pm with no basis what soever, i expect 20 to be in line with 18. Outside of things like Lafleur aand the first growths, I think there's very little movement on the secondary market. Canon, Pontet, Chevalier, Berliquet (all of which I bought) are available at the same price now as they were EP. I think Rauzan Segla did move a bit and possibly Larcis Ducasse too
Have any of these wines been delivered yet...? I think it's very possible that second tranche and later pricing for 2018 is similar to the initial first tranche price...but I would expect retail pricing to go up quite a bit especially if these are scored at the top band of their EP scores once reviewed from bottle. K&L is showing more Domaine de Chevalier pre-arrivals of several vintages back in stock (including 2009/2010/2016/2018). The pricing of the 2018 at $90 looks like a modest increase from the first tranche pricing. (15%+)

I would think that between 2016/18/19/20 the Bordelaise will have a lot of wine to sell, and it wouldn't be surprising to see an increase on 2019 pricing, but below or in-line with 2018 in order to keep interest in 2020.
Depending on merchant, most of these have been delivered now. Certainly everything I mentioned above that I owned was at least initially delivered a few months ago. Not all merchants have had deliveries yet - e.g. I have Pontet Canet with two merchants, one has theirs, the other hasnt.
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Re: 2020 Bordeaux

#36 Post by JulianD »

HenryB wrote: April 19th, 2021, 10:39 pm Depending on merchant, most of these have been delivered now. Certainly everything I mentioned above that I owned was at least initially delivered a few months ago. Not all merchants have had deliveries yet - e.g. I have Pontet Canet with two merchants, one has theirs, the other hasnt.
I still have a bunch of '16 outstanding
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Re: 2020 Bordeaux

#37 Post by HenryB »

JulianD wrote: April 20th, 2021, 12:28 am
HenryB wrote: April 19th, 2021, 10:39 pm Depending on merchant, most of these have been delivered now. Certainly everything I mentioned above that I owned was at least initially delivered a few months ago. Not all merchants have had deliveries yet - e.g. I have Pontet Canet with two merchants, one has theirs, the other hasnt.
I still have a bunch of '16 outstanding


uh, you really shouldnt. An expert might chime in here but in my experience all en primeur wines should be delivered 2.5-3 years after the vintage date, e.g. I expect my 2019s to all be physical by summer next year. The only reason off hand that makes me think this could be legit is if 2016 was going physical during the tariffs - but the tarrifs were brought in Oct 19 (on a quick google) which is at least a few months after I'd expect EP purchases to be going physical. EP17 would have been physical from Dec19-Summer20, EP18 Dec20-Summer21, EP19 Dec21-Summer22 (based on experiennce rather than anything 'firm')

Given your location, can you DM me the name of your merchant? I have... history... with a famous LA merchant that would scare the living daylights out of you, specifically around that time.
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Re: 2020 Bordeaux

#38 Post by YLee »

JulianD wrote: April 20th, 2021, 12:28 am
HenryB wrote: April 19th, 2021, 10:39 pm Depending on merchant, most of these have been delivered now. Certainly everything I mentioned above that I owned was at least initially delivered a few months ago. Not all merchants have had deliveries yet - e.g. I have Pontet Canet with two merchants, one has theirs, the other hasnt.
I still have a bunch of '16 outstanding
You should have received these already unless you bought the '16 on pre-arrival recently.
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Re: 2020 Bordeaux

#39 Post by YLee »

HenryB wrote: April 19th, 2021, 10:39 pm
Taylor Broussard wrote: April 19th, 2021, 2:52 pm
HenryB wrote: April 19th, 2021, 1:59 pm with no basis what soever, i expect 20 to be in line with 18. Outside of things like Lafleur aand the first growths, I think there's very little movement on the secondary market. Canon, Pontet, Chevalier, Berliquet (all of which I bought) are available at the same price now as they were EP. I think Rauzan Segla did move a bit and possibly Larcis Ducasse too
Have any of these wines been delivered yet...? I think it's very possible that second tranche and later pricing for 2018 is similar to the initial first tranche price...but I would expect retail pricing to go up quite a bit especially if these are scored at the top band of their EP scores once reviewed from bottle. K&L is showing more Domaine de Chevalier pre-arrivals of several vintages back in stock (including 2009/2010/2016/2018). The pricing of the 2018 at $90 looks like a modest increase from the first tranche pricing. (15%+)

I would think that between 2016/18/19/20 the Bordelaise will have a lot of wine to sell, and it wouldn't be surprising to see an increase on 2019 pricing, but below or in-line with 2018 in order to keep interest in 2020.
Depending on merchant, most of these have been delivered now. Certainly everything I mentioned above that I owned was at least initially delivered a few months ago. Not all merchants have had deliveries yet - e.g. I have Pontet Canet with two merchants, one has theirs, the other hasnt.
I wish I received my '18s. I havent received any. Did you get your Lafite Rothschild yet?
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Re: 2020 Bordeaux

#40 Post by HenryB »

YLee wrote: April 20th, 2021, 4:27 am
HenryB wrote: April 19th, 2021, 10:39 pm
Taylor Broussard wrote: April 19th, 2021, 2:52 pm

Have any of these wines been delivered yet...? I think it's very possible that second tranche and later pricing for 2018 is similar to the initial first tranche price...but I would expect retail pricing to go up quite a bit especially if these are scored at the top band of their EP scores once reviewed from bottle. K&L is showing more Domaine de Chevalier pre-arrivals of several vintages back in stock (including 2009/2010/2016/2018). The pricing of the 2018 at $90 looks like a modest increase from the first tranche pricing. (15%+)

I would think that between 2016/18/19/20 the Bordelaise will have a lot of wine to sell, and it wouldn't be surprising to see an increase on 2019 pricing, but below or in-line with 2018 in order to keep interest in 2020.
Depending on merchant, most of these have been delivered now. Certainly everything I mentioned above that I owned was at least initially delivered a few months ago. Not all merchants have had deliveries yet - e.g. I have Pontet Canet with two merchants, one has theirs, the other hasnt.
I wish I received my '18s. I havent received any. Did you get your Lafite Rothschild yet?
I dont get an allocation of Lafite & didnt buy any in 2018. I bought the 'cheap' tier wines I mentioned above, things like Pontet Canet, Canon, etc. I do live in the UK, though, so turnaround times should be faster than for you guys in the States.

Some of my 2018 is still outstanding, though. As I said, it ranges from merchant to merchant (rather than producer to producer). I think I had 4 maybe 5 sets of orders with different merchants, about half of them are now delivered.


(To clarify - of course producer matters as well, if the wine isnt ready yet no one has it. But for example with my 2018 pontet canet, I took delivery of one case through merchant A around Christmas. A second case, through merchant B, is still en primeur and I guess will be for a month or so at least, more)
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Re: 2020 Bordeaux

#41 Post by YLee »

HenryB wrote: April 20th, 2021, 4:29 am
YLee wrote: April 20th, 2021, 4:27 am
HenryB wrote: April 19th, 2021, 10:39 pm

Depending on merchant, most of these have been delivered now. Certainly everything I mentioned above that I owned was at least initially delivered a few months ago. Not all merchants have had deliveries yet - e.g. I have Pontet Canet with two merchants, one has theirs, the other hasnt.
I wish I received my '18s. I havent received any. Did you get your Lafite Rothschild yet?
I dont get an allocation of Lafite & didnt buy any in 2018. I bought the 'cheap' tier wines I mentioned above, things like Pontet Canet, Canon, etc. I do live in the UK, though, so turnaround times should be faster than for you guys in the States.

Some of my 2018 is still outstanding, though. As I said, it ranges from merchant to merchant (rather than producer to producer). I think I had 4 maybe 5 sets of orders with different merchants, about half of them are now delivered.


(To clarify - of course producer matters as well, if the wine isnt ready yet no one has it. But for example with my 2018 pontet canet, I took delivery of one case through merchant A around Christmas. A second case, through merchant B, is still en primeur and I guess will be for a month or so at least, more)
Apologies. I thought I read in another thread that you bought Lafite. A mix up. I need more than 2 hours of sleep.
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Re: 2020 Bordeaux

#42 Post by HenryB »

YLee wrote: April 20th, 2021, 4:41 am
HenryB wrote: April 20th, 2021, 4:29 am
YLee wrote: April 20th, 2021, 4:27 am

I wish I received my '18s. I havent received any. Did you get your Lafite Rothschild yet?
I dont get an allocation of Lafite & didnt buy any in 2018. I bought the 'cheap' tier wines I mentioned above, things like Pontet Canet, Canon, etc. I do live in the UK, though, so turnaround times should be faster than for you guys in the States.

Some of my 2018 is still outstanding, though. As I said, it ranges from merchant to merchant (rather than producer to producer). I think I had 4 maybe 5 sets of orders with different merchants, about half of them are now delivered.


(To clarify - of course producer matters as well, if the wine isnt ready yet no one has it. But for example with my 2018 pontet canet, I took delivery of one case through merchant A around Christmas. A second case, through merchant B, is still en primeur and I guess will be for a month or so at least, more)
Apologies. I thought I read in another thread that you bought Lafite. A mix up. I need more than 2 hours of sleep.
No apologies needed, I'm not insulted ;-) unless you meant it as an insult!

I do get some Lafleur, but that started in 2019. Same with Mouton, HB, LMHB, Palmer. I got all those for the first time in 2019. I do have Le Pin from 2017 onwards, though, but only small amounts.


If I look at BI Wine in the UK, it looks like their 2018 Lafite is physically in-bond now, rather than futures.

Cheers,
H
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Re: 2020 Bordeaux

#43 Post by Mark Golodetz »

Alexander Smith wrote: April 19th, 2021, 3:09 pm
Mark Golodetz wrote: April 19th, 2021, 2:56 pm
O.G. Nikolai wrote: April 19th, 2021, 1:47 pm Don't think prices falling.
19 was an exception. Like 08 was.
20 prices will increase for sure.
Agree but the Bordelais cannot expect to sell many if there is plenty of 2019 available at first tranche prices.
Ah but that is where the wonderful marketing team come in....I believe I already read one of the first growths mention that have never had a trilogy like 18,19 and 20....and 20 could be the best... I bought a fair amount in 19...and I am still buying where I see deals pop up. I doubt they will release 20 at a similar price, if they do and the quality is there (eyes on you Jeff!) then I might buy in...but I have a wonderful way of getting excited every year, but agree it is all about prices...if similar to 2018 forget it...close to 2019 then I am a buyer...
My experience of Bordeaux is that it is tough for them to sell two great back to back vintages even if the surrounding years are mediocre. The market is much larger than it used to be, but there is no way that they will able to sell the five out of six great vintages since 2015. And frankly I would even add 2014, which despite less love from the critics, I think will prove to be rather fine. Their marketing is better than it used to be, the demand is greater, but it is not at least double which it would need to be to absorb all that inventory.
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Re: 2020 Bordeaux

#44 Post by HenryB »

Mark Golodetz wrote: April 20th, 2021, 5:26 am
My experience of Bordeaux is that it is tough for them to sell two great back to back vintages even if the surrounding years are mediocre. The market is much larger than it used to be, but there is no way that they will able to sell the five out of six great vintages since 2015. And frankly I would even add 2014, which despite less love from the critics, I think will prove to be rather fine. Their marketing is better than it used to be, the demand is greater, but it is not at least double which it would need to be to absorb all that inventory.
while I agree with what you just said, with the negociant system, does it matter "as much"?
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Re: 2020 Bordeaux

#45 Post by Craig G »

Mark Golodetz wrote: April 20th, 2021, 5:26 amMy experience of Bordeaux is that it is tough for them to sell two great back to back vintages even if the surrounding years are mediocre. The market is much larger than it used to be, but there is no way that they will able to sell the five out of six great vintages since 2015. And frankly I would even add 2014, which despite less love from the critics, I think will prove to be rather fine. Their marketing is better than it used to be, the demand is greater, but it is not at least double which it would need to be to absorb all that inventory.
That said, when are the fire sales on 2017?
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Re: 2020 Bordeaux

#46 Post by HenryB »

to be fair, i havent done an exhaustive review of the 17s, but at least some of what I bought (Canon) is down fairly noticeably.

Pricing is in line with 12 and 14, though.


If you look at Farr, for example:
https://www.farrvintners.com/winelist.p ... ntage=2017

You'll notice there's a reasonable amount of stuff that's marked down noticeably.
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Re: 2020 Bordeaux

#47 Post by Vince T »

Craig G wrote: April 20th, 2021, 6:31 am
Mark Golodetz wrote: April 20th, 2021, 5:26 amMy experience of Bordeaux is that it is tough for them to sell two great back to back vintages even if the surrounding years are mediocre. The market is much larger than it used to be, but there is no way that they will able to sell the five out of six great vintages since 2015. And frankly I would even add 2014, which despite less love from the critics, I think will prove to be rather fine. Their marketing is better than it used to be, the demand is greater, but it is not at least double which it would need to be to absorb all that inventory.
That said, when are the fire sales on 2017?
While it's not exactly a "fire sale", K&L has been offloading many 2017 Bordeaux at discount for the past few months. Pickings are now slim, but they previously had Beychevelle and Clinet at ~$80, Tertre Roteboeuf at $140, etc. Those are at or near 2019 EP prices (at least 2nd tranche) and at a decent discount to other recent vintages.
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Re: 2020 Bordeaux

#48 Post by YLee »

JS drank 400 wines so far and his favorite is Ch. Margaux. I have no idea what the other wines he drank are.
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Re: 2020 Bordeaux

#49 Post by Paul @bbott »

HenryB wrote: April 20th, 2021, 6:35 am to be fair, i havent done an exhaustive review of the 17s, but at least some of what I bought (Canon) is down fairly noticeably.

Pricing is in line with 12 and 14, though.


If you look at Farr, for example:
https://www.farrvintners.com/winelist.p ... ntage=2017

You'll notice there's a reasonable amount of stuff that's marked down noticeably.
Personally I would stock up on the 2014, a generally better vintage and some is drinking nicely already.

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Re: 2020 Bordeaux

#50 Post by HenryB »

the problem I have is that I love buying wine but I bloody hate paying 20% VAT on it...
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