Saxum James Berry Vineyard ... Collectible ?

Tasting notes, varietals, grapes - anything related to wine
Post Reply
Message
Author
mattbillet
Posts: 366
Joined: June 15th, 2009, 6:55 am

Saxum James Berry Vineyard ... Collectible ?

#1 Post by mattbillet »

I am not as much of a Wine Spectator or Parker hater as some ... and being a fan of Paso Robles I am someone still with a deep respect for the great wines of the world including both white and red Burgundy... it still irked me in a recent
Wine Spectator issue that rated at 97 points (WS points) the Saxum James Berry coming in at a price of $98 yet deemed it as highly recommended whereas 97 an 96 Burgundy's priced at $300-800 were deemed collectible. I don't question the credibility of the Burgundy wines; I do question why an incredible wine from Paso Robles of equal or higher score isn't also collectible! Saxum friends... I understand that it is always great to get great scores and be featured in the press!
I don't mean to detract from that in any way. But, I suspect that there are some great Burgundy and Rhone Winemakers/Winery Owners who would agree with me that your wines are incredible and indeed "collectible".

User avatar
Robert M yers
Posts: 3622
Joined: March 10th, 2010, 8:24 pm
Location: Cleveland
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 18 times

Re: Saxum James Berry Vineyard ... Collectible ?

#2 Post by Robert M yers »

I get your frustration with the system, and Saxum is “collectible” but it’s not a trophy wine in the sense of an international auction atmosphere. There are many great wines with high scores from the Rhône that are not in their collectible category either. Yet They often put chapoutier and Guigal in the category because the name rings many a bell across country lines. It’s not a slight on the more obscure producers, just a lack of recognition in the wider community...be glad though because if Saxum ever cracks that puzzle they won’t $98 much longer.

User avatar
jordan whitehead
Posts: 4670
Joined: February 12th, 2009, 4:59 pm
Location: Northbrook, IL
Been thanked: 9 times

Re: Saxum James Berry Vineyard ... Collectible ?

#3 Post by jordan whitehead »

also difficult to assess when you compare 1 winery in California to a whole region.

US syrah for the most part has been slumping in the sales department

scores have no relevance if a consumer doesn't care for a style. Again without knowing a specific example in burgundy, Saxum doesnt have a long enough track record in aging.
www.annaswish.org

User avatar
Chris Seiber
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 9948
Joined: April 28th, 2010, 3:22 pm
Location: Newport Beach, CA
Has thanked: 120 times
Been thanked: 123 times

Re: Saxum James Berry Vineyard ... Collectible ?

#4 Post by Chris Seiber »

For whatever reason, critical and CT scores for red Burgundy tend to be on the low side relative to price and demand. Premium Paso producers seem to be on the high side.

I'm not expressing any judgment about either, just that if you're trying to compare scores between the regions and figure out demand and collectability and resale, you probably need to make an adjustment.

User avatar
Robert Dentice
Monopole Crü
Monopole Crü
Posts: 2566
Joined: March 5th, 2009, 11:40 am
Has thanked: 59 times
Been thanked: 68 times

Re: Saxum James Berry Vineyard ... Collectible ?

#5 Post by Robert Dentice »

I don't know how they define collectible but would guess the potential to increase in value is a large component. I just looked on winesearcher and there are a slew of James Berrys for sale going back to 2004 for at or close to current release prices.

Be thankful you love these wines and not Burgundy.
ITB - source | material

Mich@el Ch@ng
Monopole Crü
Monopole Crü
Posts: 7416
Joined: March 31st, 2017, 9:57 pm
Has thanked: 18 times
Been thanked: 154 times

Re: Saxum James Berry Vineyard ... Collectible ?

#6 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng »

mattbillet wrote: April 7th, 2021, 8:51 pm I am not as much of a Wine Spectator or Parker hater as some ... and being a fan of Paso Robles I am someone still with a deep respect for the great wines of the world including both white and red Burgundy... it still irked me in a recent
Wine Spectator issue that rated at 97 points (WS points) the Saxum James Berry coming in at a price of $98 yet deemed it as highly recommended whereas 97 an 96 Burgundy's priced at $300-800 were deemed collectible. I don't question the credibility of the Burgundy wines; I do question why an incredible wine from Paso Robles of equal or higher score isn't also collectible! Saxum friends... I understand that it is always great to get great scores and be featured in the press!
I don't mean to detract from that in any way. But, I suspect that there are some great Burgundy and Rhone Winemakers/Winery Owners who would agree with me that your wines are incredible and indeed "collectible".
Not understanding why you’d want something you like to be harder to get and more expensive.

Andy Sc
Posts: 250
Joined: August 2nd, 2019, 4:20 am
Has thanked: 9 times
Been thanked: 15 times

Re: Saxum James Berry Vineyard ... Collectible ?

#7 Post by Andy Sc »

It's just a question of demand. The fine wine market is geared towards lower alcohol, lower ripeness and less weight wines. Central Californian wines do not belong in that catgory. Same for me, while I admire the occasional young Napa or Central Cali wine for its technical abilities, the complexity and precision, good structural frame, I seldomly have the urge to drink a whole bottle or another glass of it. A less perfect and less complex Bordeaux on the otherhand might get a lower technical score but makes you craving for more. That is especially true for younger vintages. With age the field evens out and an old Dominus can be just as exciting as a great Bordeaux. With Saxum that history is missing and that's why I still buy Dominus but not Saxum.
Andrew Scheppler - Based in Europe, a special place for Bordeaux and Burgundy but with love for so many regions every now and then.

User avatar
Scott Brunson
Monopole Crü
Monopole Crü
Posts: 11311
Joined: November 15th, 2011, 2:55 am
Location: in between coastal SC and south FL
Has thanked: 34 times
Been thanked: 29 times

Re: Saxum James Berry Vineyard ... Collectible ?

#8 Post by Scott Brunson »

Even though my palate generally leans AFWE, I still collect Saxum, as well as Napa Cabs.
Tous les chemins mènent à la Bourgogne!
On CT, I'm S1

Mich@el Ch@ng
Monopole Crü
Monopole Crü
Posts: 7416
Joined: March 31st, 2017, 9:57 pm
Has thanked: 18 times
Been thanked: 154 times

Re: Saxum James Berry Vineyard ... Collectible ?

#9 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng »

Andy Sc wrote: April 8th, 2021, 5:08 am It's just a question of demand. The fine wine market is geared towards lower alcohol, lower ripeness and less weight wines.Central Californian wines do not belong in that catgory. Same for me, while I admire the occasional young Napa or Central Cali wine for its technical abilities, the complexity and precision, good structural frame, I seldomly have the urge to drink a whole bottle or another glass of it. A less perfect and less complex Bordeaux on the otherhand might get a lower technical score but makes you craving for more. That is especially true for younger vintages. With age the field evens out and an old Dominus can be just as exciting as a great Bordeaux. With Saxum that history is missing and that's why I still buy Dominus but not Saxum.
Michel Rolland would disagree.

Andy Sc
Posts: 250
Joined: August 2nd, 2019, 4:20 am
Has thanked: 9 times
Been thanked: 15 times

Re: Saxum James Berry Vineyard ... Collectible ?

#10 Post by Andy Sc »

Mich@el Ch@ng wrote: April 8th, 2021, 5:42 am
Andy Sc wrote: April 8th, 2021, 5:08 am It's just a question of demand. The fine wine market is geared towards lower alcohol, lower ripeness and less weight wines.Central Californian wines do not belong in that catgory. Same for me, while I admire the occasional young Napa or Central Cali wine for its technical abilities, the complexity and precision, good structural frame, I seldomly have the urge to drink a whole bottle or another glass of it. A less perfect and less complex Bordeaux on the otherhand might get a lower technical score but makes you craving for more. That is especially true for younger vintages. With age the field evens out and an old Dominus can be just as exciting as a great Bordeaux. With Saxum that history is missing and that's why I still buy Dominus but not Saxum.
Michel Rolland would disagree.
Looking at the price evolution, unfortunately, the market agrees.
Andrew Scheppler - Based in Europe, a special place for Bordeaux and Burgundy but with love for so many regions every now and then.

Dennis Borczon
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 865
Joined: January 28th, 2011, 2:46 pm
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 18 times

Re: Saxum James Berry Vineyard ... Collectible ?

#11 Post by Dennis Borczon »

Saxum, in Burgundy time, was founded last night. If that piece of land is still producing interesting wine in 200 years, the value will surely increase...

Mich@el Ch@ng
Monopole Crü
Monopole Crü
Posts: 7416
Joined: March 31st, 2017, 9:57 pm
Has thanked: 18 times
Been thanked: 154 times

Re: Saxum James Berry Vineyard ... Collectible ?

#12 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng »

Andy Sc wrote: April 8th, 2021, 5:46 am
Mich@el Ch@ng wrote: April 8th, 2021, 5:42 am
Andy Sc wrote: April 8th, 2021, 5:08 am It's just a question of demand. The fine wine market is geared towards lower alcohol, lower ripeness and less weight wines.Central Californian wines do not belong in that catgory. Same for me, while I admire the occasional young Napa or Central Cali wine for its technical abilities, the complexity and precision, good structural frame, I seldomly have the urge to drink a whole bottle or another glass of it. A less perfect and less complex Bordeaux on the otherhand might get a lower technical score but makes you craving for more. That is especially true for younger vintages. With age the field evens out and an old Dominus can be just as exciting as a great Bordeaux. With Saxum that history is missing and that's why I still buy Dominus but not Saxum.
Michel Rolland would disagree.
Looking at the price evolution, unfortunately, the market agrees.
Does it? Price out 2018-2019 Burgundy against 07, 11, or 13. Rouget is >16% ABV in 19. I was shocked by the $250-300 offers of Clavelier Combe de orveau but perhaps this is the new normal.

Tom R W
Posts: 148
Joined: February 11th, 2021, 2:55 pm
Has thanked: 58 times
Been thanked: 26 times

Re: Saxum James Berry Vineyard ... Collectible ?

#13 Post by Tom R W »

It's my understanding (possibly an assumption) that a Wine Spectator "Collectible" designation factors in a wine's ability to age long term. I don't think it's universally agreed that Saxum will age well, they and Paso Rhones just have a shorter track record or smaller sample size here. I personally disagree with the notion, my 2010 Saxum's are drinking better than they ever have. It might just take some time for Wine's conventional wisdom to catch up.
W a r r e n

User avatar
Jason T
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 2810
Joined: June 8th, 2014, 7:45 am
Location: London
Has thanked: 47 times
Been thanked: 23 times

Re: Saxum James Berry Vineyard ... Collectible ?

#14 Post by Jason T »

Mich@el Ch@ng wrote: April 8th, 2021, 5:51 am
Andy Sc wrote: April 8th, 2021, 5:46 am
Mich@el Ch@ng wrote: April 8th, 2021, 5:42 am

Michel Rolland would disagree.
Looking at the price evolution, unfortunately, the market agrees.
Does it? Price out 2018-2019 Burgundy against 07, 11, or 13. Rouget is >16% ABV in 19. I was shocked by the $250-300 offers of Clavelier Combe de orveau but perhaps this is the new normal.
And that's before we get into Cult Cali's and SQN. Or certain wines from the Southern Rhone.
J@son Tr@ughber

User avatar
J a y H a c k
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 14391
Joined: May 29th, 2009, 9:59 am
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 38 times

Re: Saxum James Berry Vineyard ... Collectible ?

#15 Post by J a y H a c k »

I collect Saxum. I claim to own the largest collection of Saxum east of the Mississippi. Loren Sonkin claimed to have more, but now he claims that I have more only because I do not drink it. That is a vicious lie! I drink it. Which gets me to my point.

What does "collectable" mean? Does it mean "should I collect it because I will hold it for a few years and then sell it at a profit?" If it means that, then I apologize for intruding in a thread I do not care about. If it means, "should I buy it now because it will cost a lot more to buy it in 10 years when I want to drink it," then that is a different question.

My oldest Saxum James Berry is the 2004 Saxum Bone Rock James Berry. I have owned it since they released it and I am comfortable with the storage. I am waiting until it is 20 years out to drink it. CT estimates the auction price is not much more than I paid for it. Was it a great investment? Damn right! I have it. I do not have to go look for it. I can open it whenever I want. I can decide to make something that will pair perfectly with it at noon and go down to the cellar and get it ready to open it that day. I do not have to agonize about what I am going to eat three months before I cook it so that it will match a wine I just bought at auction. I can donate a bottle of Saxum to a charity auction whenever I want. It makes my life much simpler and besides, I can go down to the cellar and just look around and feel good about the results of all the time I have spent (wasted?) on this hobby over the past decades.

All roads do not lead to Burgundy. Burgundy prices are what they are because production is tiny and people like to pay up for scarcity for scarcity's sake, without regard to the pleasure that they deliver. I feel sorry for those people.
Yes, that's a DM of 1978 Mouton!

You can read my Financial Institutions Law Blog at https://www.gdblaw.com/blog?practiceID=4985.

User avatar
brigcampbell
Moderator
<dfn>Moderator</dfn>
Posts: 18005
Joined: April 7th, 2010, 12:17 pm
Location: Mission Viejo, CA
Has thanked: 29 times
Been thanked: 136 times

Re: Saxum James Berry Vineyard ... Collectible ?

#16 Post by brigcampbell »

Andy Sc wrote: April 8th, 2021, 5:46 am
Mich@el Ch@ng wrote: April 8th, 2021, 5:42 am
Andy Sc wrote: April 8th, 2021, 5:08 am It's just a question of demand. The fine wine market is geared towards lower alcohol, lower ripeness and less weight wines.Central Californian wines do not belong in that catgory. Same for me, while I admire the occasional young Napa or Central Cali wine for its technical abilities, the complexity and precision, good structural frame, I seldomly have the urge to drink a whole bottle or another glass of it. A less perfect and less complex Bordeaux on the otherhand might get a lower technical score but makes you craving for more. That is especially true for younger vintages. With age the field evens out and an old Dominus can be just as exciting as a great Bordeaux. With Saxum that history is missing and that's why I still buy Dominus but not Saxum.
Michel Rolland would disagree.
Looking at the price evolution, unfortunately, the market agrees.
Exhibit B: SQN

User avatar
J a y H a c k
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 14391
Joined: May 29th, 2009, 9:59 am
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 38 times

Re: Saxum James Berry Vineyard ... Collectible ?

#17 Post by J a y H a c k »

Andy Sc wrote: April 8th, 2021, 5:08 am It's just a question of demand. The fine wine market is geared towards lower alcohol, lower ripeness and less weight wines. Central Californian wines do not belong in that catgory. Same for me, while I admire the occasional young Napa or Central Cali wine for its technical abilities, the complexity and precision, good structural frame, I seldomly have the urge to drink a whole bottle or another glass of it. A less perfect and less complex Bordeaux on the otherhand might get a lower technical score but makes you craving for more. That is especially true for younger vintages. With age the field evens out and an old Dominus can be just as exciting as a great Bordeaux. With Saxum that history is missing and that's why I still buy Dominus but not Saxum.
I am 69 years old and I feel sorry for you. I had a very nice 1966 Clos Fourtet last week. But I also had an outstanding brand new St. Cosme Cote Rotie and a wonderful 2004 Foley Claret. To suggest that wines in France are somehow more complex or objectively reflects either an inherent bias, and nothing more.
Yes, that's a DM of 1978 Mouton!

You can read my Financial Institutions Law Blog at https://www.gdblaw.com/blog?practiceID=4985.

User avatar
larry schaffer
BerserkerBusiness
BerserkerBusiness
Posts: 9058
Joined: January 28th, 2009, 9:26 am
Location: Santa Ynez Valley, CA
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 146 times

Re: Saxum James Berry Vineyard ... Collectible ?

#18 Post by larry schaffer »

There is no logic here - it has more to do with tradition IMHO than anything else. Also, unless it's pinot or cab-based, can it really be 'collectible' domestically in many folks' eyes?

Does production volume come in to play?

Cheers
larry schaffer
tercero wines

User avatar
J a y H a c k
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 14391
Joined: May 29th, 2009, 9:59 am
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 38 times

Re: Saxum James Berry Vineyard ... Collectible ?

#19 Post by J a y H a c k »

larry schaffer wrote: April 8th, 2021, 7:33 am There is no logic here - it has more to do with tradition IMHO than anything else. Also, unless it's pinot or cab-based, can it really be 'collectible' domestically in many folks' eyes?

Does production volume come in to play?

Cheers
And your rose is orders of magnitude better than the swill that comes out of French rose producers!
Yes, that's a DM of 1978 Mouton!

You can read my Financial Institutions Law Blog at https://www.gdblaw.com/blog?practiceID=4985.

Mich@el Ch@ng
Monopole Crü
Monopole Crü
Posts: 7416
Joined: March 31st, 2017, 9:57 pm
Has thanked: 18 times
Been thanked: 154 times

Re: Saxum James Berry Vineyard ... Collectible ?

#20 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng »

larry schaffer wrote: April 8th, 2021, 7:33 am There is no logic here - it has more to do with tradition IMHO than anything else. Also, unless it's pinot or cab-based, can it really be 'collectible' domestically in many folks' eyes?

Does production volume come in to play?

Cheers
Idk, northern rhone seems pretty collectible atm.

User avatar
Glenn L e v i n e
Monopole Crü
Monopole Crü
Posts: 20606
Joined: January 27th, 2009, 6:16 pm
Location: Coos Bay, OR
Has thanked: 27 times
Been thanked: 23 times

Re: Saxum James Berry Vineyard ... Collectible ?

#21 Post by Glenn L e v i n e »

I’ve got one 2007 JBV left and it’s a next month for my 60th or wait until full retirement age 65 bottle!

I care not what it’s worth.
"Never lose sight of the fact that it is just fermented grape juice" - a winemaker and negotiant in Napa Valley, CA

User avatar
larry schaffer
BerserkerBusiness
BerserkerBusiness
Posts: 9058
Joined: January 28th, 2009, 9:26 am
Location: Santa Ynez Valley, CA
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 146 times

Re: Saxum James Berry Vineyard ... Collectible ?

#22 Post by larry schaffer »

Mich@el Ch@ng wrote: April 8th, 2021, 7:42 am
larry schaffer wrote: April 8th, 2021, 7:33 am There is no logic here - it has more to do with tradition IMHO than anything else. Also, unless it's pinot or cab-based, can it really be 'collectible' domestically in many folks' eyes?

Does production volume come in to play?

Cheers
Idk, northern rhone seems pretty collectible atm.
Northern Rhone is - but not domestic syrah . . .
larry schaffer
tercero wines

Ryan Gilmour
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 176
Joined: November 17th, 2019, 6:55 pm
Has thanked: 31 times
Been thanked: 12 times

Re: Saxum James Berry Vineyard ... Collectible ?

#23 Post by Ryan Gilmour »

Glenn L e v i n e wrote: April 8th, 2021, 7:50 am I’ve got one 2007 JBV left and it’s a next month for my 60th or wait until full retirement age 65 bottle!

I care not what it’s worth.
Congrats Glenn, ironically the one JBV that could have been deemed collectible.

User avatar
Glenn L e v i n e
Monopole Crü
Monopole Crü
Posts: 20606
Joined: January 27th, 2009, 6:16 pm
Location: Coos Bay, OR
Has thanked: 27 times
Been thanked: 23 times

Re: Saxum James Berry Vineyard ... Collectible ?

#24 Post by Glenn L e v i n e »

Ironically, I value my Bone Rock and Rocket Block wines more.

I got a big $ offer for the 07 JBV I’d sell that. Those other two bottlings not so much.
"Never lose sight of the fact that it is just fermented grape juice" - a winemaker and negotiant in Napa Valley, CA

User avatar
Marshall Manning
Monopole Crü
Monopole Crü
Posts: 1051
Joined: January 31st, 2009, 1:16 pm
Location: Portland, OR
Has thanked: 20 times
Been thanked: 117 times

Re: Saxum James Berry Vineyard ... Collectible ?

#25 Post by Marshall Manning »

I wouldn't worry about what WS says about the wine. If you like it, drink it and enjoy it whether it's "highly recommended" or "collectible."
Marshall

Andy Sc
Posts: 250
Joined: August 2nd, 2019, 4:20 am
Has thanked: 9 times
Been thanked: 15 times

Re: Saxum James Berry Vineyard ... Collectible ?

#26 Post by Andy Sc »

J a y H a c k wrote: April 8th, 2021, 7:31 am
Andy Sc wrote: April 8th, 2021, 5:08 am It's just a question of demand. The fine wine market is geared towards lower alcohol, lower ripeness and less weight wines. Central Californian wines do not belong in that catgory. Same for me, while I admire the occasional young Napa or Central Cali wine for its technical abilities, the complexity and precision, good structural frame, I seldomly have the urge to drink a whole bottle or another glass of it. A less perfect and less complex Bordeaux on the otherhand might get a lower technical score but makes you craving for more. That is especially true for younger vintages. With age the field evens out and an old Dominus can be just as exciting as a great Bordeaux. With Saxum that history is missing and that's why I still buy Dominus but not Saxum.
I am 69 years old and I feel sorry for you. I had a very nice 1966 Clos Fourtet last week. But I also had an outstanding brand new St. Cosme Cote Rotie and a wonderful 2004 Foley Claret. To suggest that wines in France are somehow more complex or objectively reflects either an inherent bias, and nothing more.
Don't get me wrong. I didn't suggest that wines in France are more complex. I specifically wrote that the Cali wines are often of highest technical pedegree (with outstanding complexity and precision in a good structural frame - I have more than 800 bottles from California in my cellar). My point was that the fine wine market prefers lower alcohol, lower ripeness, lower weight wines which is why the prices of Burgundy are in other spheres (as the orginal poster asked why is this 96-97 point wine for 300 to 800 bucks is more of a collectible than the 97 point wine for 89 bucks).
Andrew Scheppler - Based in Europe, a special place for Bordeaux and Burgundy but with love for so many regions every now and then.

User avatar
Keith A k e r s
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 3943
Joined: June 2nd, 2009, 3:48 pm
Location: Chicago
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 16 times

Re: Saxum James Berry Vineyard ... Collectible ?

#27 Post by Keith A k e r s »

larry schaffer wrote: April 8th, 2021, 8:07 am
Mich@el Ch@ng wrote: April 8th, 2021, 7:42 am
larry schaffer wrote: April 8th, 2021, 7:33 am There is no logic here - it has more to do with tradition IMHO than anything else. Also, unless it's pinot or cab-based, can it really be 'collectible' domestically in many folks' eyes?

Does production volume come in to play?

Cheers
Idk, northern rhone seems pretty collectible atm.
Northern Rhone is - but not domestic syrah . . .

as mentioned above, SQN begs to differ. Cayuse may not get the giant jumps in price, but it has always been a very happy addition to a dinner/tasting with collectors from my experience. I can see Pax becoming a collector's producer for some vineyards as well.

That's not to say that your general view on domestic syrah isn't true, but it's a small market already for such wines and the whole grape has gone through a few different identities to even get to the place it's at right now over the past 15 years.
Last edited by Keith A k e r s on April 8th, 2021, 10:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Kelly Walker
Posts: 2136
Joined: June 6th, 2009, 7:01 pm
Been thanked: 19 times

Re: Saxum James Berry Vineyard ... Collectible ?

#28 Post by Kelly Walker »

Highly drinkable.
“It is true that liberty is precious; so precious that it must be carefully rationed.”
Vladimir Lenin
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners"
George Carlin

User avatar
Rodrigo B
Monopole Crü
Monopole Crü
Posts: 1300
Joined: June 9th, 2020, 11:21 pm
Location: New York
Has thanked: 47 times
Been thanked: 185 times

Re: Saxum James Berry Vineyard ... Collectible ?

#29 Post by Rodrigo B »

Tastes are subjective. Unless you’re speculatively buying wine to sell later at a profit, it shouldn’t much matter what the market or critics think of wines, so long as you enjoy them and find them worth the price you paid.
B r @ g @

Alex Valdes
Monopole Crü
Monopole Crü
Posts: 498
Joined: June 22nd, 2020, 12:47 pm
Location: CT
Has thanked: 94 times
Been thanked: 21 times

Re: Saxum James Berry Vineyard ... Collectible ?

#30 Post by Alex Valdes »

Andy Sc wrote: April 8th, 2021, 9:42 am My point was that the fine wine market prefers lower alcohol, lower ripeness, lower weight wines which is why the prices of Burgundy are in other spheres (as the orginal poster asked why is this 96-97 point wine for 300 to 800 bucks is more of a collectible than the 97 point wine for 89 bucks).
I’d say this correlation is spurious (and attempting to use points as a mechanism for comparison is dubious at best).

The stronger correlation is brand

Andy Sc
Posts: 250
Joined: August 2nd, 2019, 4:20 am
Has thanked: 9 times
Been thanked: 15 times

Re: Saxum James Berry Vineyard ... Collectible ?

#31 Post by Andy Sc »

Alex Valdes wrote: April 8th, 2021, 10:06 am
Andy Sc wrote: April 8th, 2021, 9:42 am My point was that the fine wine market prefers lower alcohol, lower ripeness, lower weight wines which is why the prices of Burgundy are in other spheres (as the orginal poster asked why is this 96-97 point wine for 300 to 800 bucks is more of a collectible than the 97 point wine for 89 bucks).
I’d say this correlation is spurious (and attempting to use points as a mechanism for comparison is dubious at best).

The stronger correlation is brand
Brand usually has indeed a big impact but I doubt that this is the reason for the specifically mentioned example as even no-name Burgundies from more or less lauded parcels cost big bucks these days (and certainly more than the Saxum). Why? Because a huge group of consumers (Asians) found out that they like low weight, ripeness and alcohol Burgundies a lot in the past 10 years and drove all the prices up significantly. As said in the inital post, it's just demand that drives prices and that demand is just higher for lower alcohol, ripeness wines these days. And of course there is not much Burgundy out there but the same is true for Saxum or the Paso region in general. So to me this seems that higher demand is the main reason.
Andrew Scheppler - Based in Europe, a special place for Bordeaux and Burgundy but with love for so many regions every now and then.

Mich@el Ch@ng
Monopole Crü
Monopole Crü
Posts: 7416
Joined: March 31st, 2017, 9:57 pm
Has thanked: 18 times
Been thanked: 154 times

Re: Saxum James Berry Vineyard ... Collectible ?

#32 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng »

Andy Sc wrote: April 8th, 2021, 10:39 am
Alex Valdes wrote: April 8th, 2021, 10:06 am
Andy Sc wrote: April 8th, 2021, 9:42 am My point was that the fine wine market prefers lower alcohol, lower ripeness, lower weight wines which is why the prices of Burgundy are in other spheres (as the orginal poster asked why is this 96-97 point wine for 300 to 800 bucks is more of a collectible than the 97 point wine for 89 bucks).
I’d say this correlation is spurious (and attempting to use points as a mechanism for comparison is dubious at best).

The stronger correlation is brand
Brand usually has indeed a big impact but I doubt that this is the reason for the specifically mentioned example as even no-name Burgundies from more or less lauded parcels cost big bucks these days (and certainly more than the Saxum). Why? Because a huge group of consumers (Asians) found out that they like low weight, ripeness and alcohol Burgundies a lot in the past 10 years and drove all the prices up significantly. As said in the inital post, it's just demand that drives prices and that demand is just higher for lower alcohol, ripeness wines these days. And of course there is not much Burgundy out there but the same is true for Saxum or the Paso region in general. So to me this seems that higher demand is the main reason.
I don’t think Asians are buying burgundy because of taste preference. They’re buying it because it’s baller. They couldn’t care less how it tastes.

User avatar
Jim Cowan
Posts: 1523
Joined: January 30th, 2009, 8:08 am
Location: FL, CA
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 17 times

Re: Saxum James Berry Vineyard ... Collectible ?

#33 Post by Jim Cowan »

Collectible, great, good, etc.; it’s all subjective.
And I do not buy $98/bottle wines or higher.
However, I tasted at Saxum a few years ago - all the current releases and then, all the same bottles with ten years of age. The aged wines were remarkable. I am not a fan of them young but the aged wines were impressive.
I guess that means that, for my palate, they are worth “collecting.”
Best, jim
Florida Jim

User avatar
J. Rock
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 1144
Joined: March 11th, 2019, 4:53 pm
Location: The [West] Valley
Has thanked: 112 times
Been thanked: 56 times

Re: Saxum James Berry Vineyard ... Collectible ?

#34 Post by J. Rock »

If it makes you feel better, I consider them quite collectable and age worthy.
J o r d a n

WOTY 2020: 1982 Cakebread Cellars Sauvignon Blanc Late Harvest Rutherford Gold

K N Haque
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 273
Joined: July 28th, 2020, 7:29 pm
Has thanked: 35 times
Been thanked: 40 times

Re: Saxum James Berry Vineyard ... Collectible ?

#35 Post by K N Haque »

This is a mountain out of a molehill. Look at Wine Spectator's own definitions. "Highly recommended" means "The issue's most impressive wines." "Collectibles" means "Wines that will improve most from additional bottle age and that show the greatest potential to gain in value." So, Wine Spectator's own definition of collectible is predicated on appreciation in value. As others have mentioned, that is not the case that for Saxum in the current market. This is not a critique in any way of Saxum or the Paso wine scene, but a reflection of what wines can be collected in order to gain in financial value. Again, not my view, but Wine Spectator's.
K @ m @ @ l

User avatar
jordan whitehead
Posts: 4670
Joined: February 12th, 2009, 4:59 pm
Location: Northbrook, IL
Been thanked: 9 times

Re: Saxum James Berry Vineyard ... Collectible ?

#36 Post by jordan whitehead »

J a y H a c k wrote: April 8th, 2021, 7:27 am
All roads do not lead to Burgundy. Burgundy prices are what they are because production is tiny and people like to pay up for scarcity for scarcity's sake, without regard to the pleasure that they deliver. I feel sorry for those people.
pleasure is subjective and personal
www.annaswish.org

User avatar
jordan whitehead
Posts: 4670
Joined: February 12th, 2009, 4:59 pm
Location: Northbrook, IL
Been thanked: 9 times

Re: Saxum James Berry Vineyard ... Collectible ?

#37 Post by jordan whitehead »

Glenn L e v i n e wrote: April 8th, 2021, 9:26 am Ironically, I value my Bone Rock and Rocket Block wines more.

I got a big $ offer for the 07 JBV I’d sell that. Those other two bottlings not so much.
Rocket Block was the most coveted in the beginning. Probably til that JBV got 100 pts
www.annaswish.org

TerryD
Posts: 78
Joined: January 11th, 2013, 2:55 pm
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: Saxum James Berry Vineyard ... Collectible ?

#38 Post by TerryD »

Have to give a nod to subjectivity and some other points above. I buy wine to drink/share but for me JBV is collectable if you get it at release price. The secondary market price will be above release almost immediately and would anticipate the price to go up some over the next several years. Don’t think it has at this point the collectability of top Burgundy or Bordeaux. Apples and oranges. Glad to be on the list though.
Terry Dement

User avatar
J a y H a c k
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 14391
Joined: May 29th, 2009, 9:59 am
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 38 times

Re: Saxum James Berry Vineyard ... Collectible ?

#39 Post by J a y H a c k »

Andy Sc wrote: April 8th, 2021, 9:42 am . . .

Don't get me wrong. I didn't suggest that wines in France are more complex. I specifically wrote that the Cali wines are often of highest technical pedegree (with outstanding complexity and precision in a good structural frame - I have more than 800 bottles from California in my cellar). My point was that the fine wine market prefers lower alcohol, lower ripeness, lower weight wines which is why the prices of Burgundy are in other spheres (as the orginal poster asked why is this 96-97 point wine for 300 to 800 bucks is more of a collectible than the 97 point wine for 89 bucks).
Sorry, you are correct. I misread your post. I do not think that it has anything to do with under-ripe, low alcohol, lower weight (I assume you mean in the Sparky Marquis sense) process in Europe. I think it is a function of scarcity - some of the wines are made in such minute quantities that it makes MacDonald look like a factory wine, coupled with tradition and the fact that some people like to eat fermented rotten fish heads because they are told that they taste good.
Yes, that's a DM of 1978 Mouton!

You can read my Financial Institutions Law Blog at https://www.gdblaw.com/blog?practiceID=4985.

User avatar
jordan whitehead
Posts: 4670
Joined: February 12th, 2009, 4:59 pm
Location: Northbrook, IL
Been thanked: 9 times

Re: Saxum James Berry Vineyard ... Collectible ?

#40 Post by jordan whitehead »

TerryD wrote: April 8th, 2021, 5:45 pm Have to give a nod to subjectivity and some other points above. I buy wine to drink/share but for me JBV is collectable if you get it at release price. The secondary market price will be above release almost immediately and would anticipate the price to go up some over the next several years. Don’t think it has at this point the collectability of top Burgundy or Bordeaux. Apples and oranges. Glad to be on the list though.
many recent vintages 12,13,15,17 of JBV are $115 to $125 at retail right now and less via auction. Saxum is ice cold at auction
www.annaswish.org

Andy Sc
Posts: 250
Joined: August 2nd, 2019, 4:20 am
Has thanked: 9 times
Been thanked: 15 times

Re: Saxum James Berry Vineyard ... Collectible ?

#41 Post by Andy Sc »

J a y H a c k wrote: April 8th, 2021, 8:25 pm
Andy Sc wrote: April 8th, 2021, 9:42 am . . .

Don't get me wrong. I didn't suggest that wines in France are more complex. I specifically wrote that the Cali wines are often of highest technical pedegree (with outstanding complexity and precision in a good structural frame - I have more than 800 bottles from California in my cellar). My point was that the fine wine market prefers lower alcohol, lower ripeness, lower weight wines which is why the prices of Burgundy are in other spheres (as the orginal poster asked why is this 96-97 point wine for 300 to 800 bucks is more of a collectible than the 97 point wine for 89 bucks).
Sorry, you are correct. I misread your post. I do not think that it has anything to do with under-ripe, low alcohol, lower weight (I assume you mean in the Sparky Marquis sense) process in Europe. I think it is a function of scarcity - some of the wines are made in such minute quantities that it makes MacDonald look like a factory wine, coupled with tradition and the fact that some people like to eat fermented rotten fish heads because they are told that they taste good.
Of course scarcity plays a big role but I don't think that this explanation is sufficient in this example given that Saxum produces a mere 1000 cases of James Berry Vyd a year only.
Andrew Scheppler - Based in Europe, a special place for Bordeaux and Burgundy but with love for so many regions every now and then.

User avatar
Ken Strauss
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 5395
Joined: November 22nd, 2015, 9:03 am
Location: Sunny South Florida
Has thanked: 16 times
Been thanked: 22 times

Re: Saxum James Berry Vineyard ... Collectible ?

#42 Post by Ken Strauss »

K N Haque wrote: April 8th, 2021, 12:55 pm This is a mountain out of a molehill. Look at Wine Spectator's own definitions. "Highly recommended" means "The issue's most impressive wines." "Collectibles" means "Wines that will improve most from additional bottle age and that show the greatest potential to gain in value." So, Wine Spectator's own definition of collectible is predicated on appreciation in value. As others have mentioned, that is not the case that for Saxum in the current market. This is not a critique in any way of Saxum or the Paso wine scene, but a reflection of what wines can be collected in order to gain in financial value. Again, not my view, but Wine Spectator's.

You have answered the OP.
Well done!

I love Saxum to own and drink. It is not a wine I buy to sell at a profit.
That said if I want to sell for any reason (taste change or too much wine) I know I can recover my cost.
"Explaining is not supporting."

"Independence is a state of mind"

Post Reply

Return to “Wine Talk”