Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#51 Post by Marcus Goodfellow »

Doug Schulman wrote: April 6th, 2021, 1:16 pm
Marcus Goodfellow wrote: April 6th, 2021, 11:19 am
Doug Schulman wrote: April 6th, 2021, 5:27 am
You’ve made up your own definition. It’s not the real definition. You can rationalize it all you want, but that doesn’t change the accepted definition. A couple if other people have done the same thing in this thread.
I get your post, and used the words “my interpretation” on purpose.

I do understand what Vegan choices are. And I am happy to produce wines that don’t have animal products added in the cellar. But I also have my own need not to feel like a hypocrite. (And because I have a lot of respect for Scott, and would like him to keep buying my wines.)

My wines are there for other people to choose to support or not, and I would go out of business quickly if no one did, but they’re not just a manufactured process.

The vineyard at Whistling Ridge is a living space(for me at least) and when I am there it’s a singular whole that I am a part of and share with a host of other life. Much of which lives and dies as part of a smaller life cycle than my own, and a not insignificant amount dies when we harvest the fruit or shortly thereafter. While this isn’t something I expect anyone to understand, the process is not different for me than when we would butcher chickens or a cow growing up. Some aspect of life sacrifices for my benefit. I’m not wracked by guilt over this, but I do prefer to fully acknowledge it in my own way.

So made by vegan standards or not, I can’t put the label on the bottle while my name is on it. It’s not at all that they don’t meet the standards. It just triggers a feeling that I am disrespecting the place and process in order to inform and appeal to consumers. And whether that’s correct or not isn’t part of the equation, it’s just how it is.
Okay, I understand what you're saying. I suppose nothing farmed with machines of any kind could be labeled vegan by your personal standard, so it still seems a bit odd to me, but I am not one to argue with your feelings on honesty and authenticity, especially now that you've explained them so clearly.
The thing about a personal standard is that it doesn’t apply to anyone else. Not sure why you care about this that much.

The only reason I posted here to begin with was because the OP looped filtration and fining together. Then when Scott posted, and he’s a friend, I posted my thoughts. I probably shouldn’t have.

Next time you lecture me on my interpretation, I’ll just say yes sir and leave the clarification alone.
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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#52 Post by Marcus Goodfellow »

Markus S wrote: April 6th, 2021, 1:21 pm "It's not terroir if you filter"...ooops, wrong thread!
Good contribution...
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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#53 Post by D@vid Bu3ker »

When people ask why winemakers eventually stop posting here, read this thread, and the "it's not terroir" thread.

Marcus is participating in good faith, and people are parsing every single freaking word. It's bizarre.
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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#54 Post by larry schaffer »

D@vid Bu3ker wrote: April 6th, 2021, 1:47 pm When people ask why winemakers eventually stop posting here, read this thread, and the "it's not terroir" thread.

Marcus is participating in good faith, and people are parsing every single freaking word. It's bizarre.
Very true - but winemakers with thin skins won't last long in our industry these days.

As I've said for so darned long, it's okay to disagree with folks - just don't be disagreeable! There are lots of 'ideas' and 'opinions' that winemakers share that may not align with your own thoughts - who cares? Seriously folks - just be open minded and realize folks think differently than you do.

This thread really has taken some strange turns, though - I guess I understand the general premise of the OP and there certainly are more folks asking if my wines are 'vegan' now than ever before - but it's one or two folks every 3 months and not each week, for instance. There is marketing out there that is 'implying' that most wines are not vegan - just like there are now folks who believe that most wines are not 'clean' these days.

Healthy debate is a good thing - but folks, please don't shoot the messenger . . .

Cheers.
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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#55 Post by Todd Hamina »

D@vid Bu3ker wrote: April 6th, 2021, 1:47 pm When people ask why winemakers eventually stop posting here, read this thread, and the "it's not terroir" thread.

Marcus is participating in good faith, and people are parsing every single freaking word. It's bizarre.
There's a bunch of folk who have let me know how they will never buy my wine. Shit happens...
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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#56 Post by Marcus Goodfellow »

larry schaffer wrote: April 6th, 2021, 2:11 pm
D@vid Bu3ker wrote: April 6th, 2021, 1:47 pm When people ask why winemakers eventually stop posting here, read this thread, and the "it's not terroir" thread.

Marcus is participating in good faith, and people are parsing every single freaking word. It's bizarre.
Very true - but winemakers with thin skins won't last long in our industry these days.

As I've said for so darned long, it's okay to disagree with folks - just don't be disagreeable! There are lots of 'ideas' and 'opinions' that winemakers share that may not align with your own thoughts - who cares? Seriously folks - just be open minded and realize folks think differently than you do.

This thread really has taken some strange turns, though - I guess I understand the general premise of the OP and there certainly are more folks asking if my wines are 'vegan' now than ever before - but it's one or two folks every 3 months and not each week, for instance. There is marketing out there that is 'implying' that most wines are not vegan - just like there are now folks who believe that most wines are not 'clean' these days.

Healthy debate is a good thing - but folks, please don't shoot the messenger . . .

Cheers.
Thanks Guys,

I appreciate that very much.

I also just finished a crazy month that finished up with bottling a few days ago and I probably should not have let Alan’s posts get under my skin quite so much, and just walked away. That whole page just is a bit sideways it seems.

While I am happy to work with dry farmed vineyards and enjoy trying to capture Mel’s fanciful notion of terroir(or at least my own interpretation of it), I also think I could have worded a number of posts a bit better. And been more balanced regarding the choices of farmers who do irrigate.

I definitely believe that most growers, and especially small growers, are focused on the same kind of “lutte raisonee” process that I use, and that can easily include irrigation.

And where I said in my opinion, all of the best versions of wines came from Europe, I should have said “my favorite of the wines I know”, and owned that I don’t drink enough CA wine to actually know much about CA wines anymore.(Looking forward to tasting some Sabelli-Frisch that just arrived).


Being ITB carries some weight, and I should stick to things that are within my experience and leave the theoretical questions of other regions to the winemakers and growers from those regions. I feel like that is the thing I most regret from my posting last night. I enjoy and respect Larry, Fred Scherrer, Ben Mandler, Andrew Morris, Adam S-F, Hardy Wallace, and all of the other CA winemakers and my flippant exit and some previous posts simply don’t convey that.
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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#57 Post by D@vid Bu3ker »

Todd Hamina wrote: April 6th, 2021, 6:53 pm
D@vid Bu3ker wrote: April 6th, 2021, 1:47 pm When people ask why winemakers eventually stop posting here, read this thread, and the "it's not terroir" thread.

Marcus is participating in good faith, and people are parsing every single freaking word. It's bizarre.
There's a bunch of folk who have let me know how they will never buy my wine. Shit happens...
I will try to make up for a little of that sometime soon.
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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#58 Post by Siun o'Connell »

Just wanted to thank the winemakers commenting here ... some interesting new information to me and greatly appreciated.

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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#59 Post by GregP »

Marcus Goodfellow wrote: April 5th, 2021, 7:35 am
GregP wrote: April 4th, 2021, 11:22 pm Most good/great wines are not filtered. Have no idea what the premise of this thread is.
Most good and great wines from the Mosel are filtered. There are lots of truly great wines that are not filtered and lots that are.

It’s a tool, and in cool vintages filtration of red wines can be a benefit by removing minor astringencies allowing the fruit to blossom. In reverse, having a tiny amount of turbidity in hot vintages can add astringency and help balance out overt fruit and sweetness.

That said, I also have no idea of the premise of this thread.
Yeah, I have no idea how wines are made, thnk you so much for your input...

Not sure what your point is, this was my statement to Parker himself in our argument over his POV that filtered wines have no soul. Including pointing out his 100 pointers for d'Yquem, and, well, German Rieslings. What a coincidence, huh? I am all for filtering WHEN it needs to be done, in sweet and off dry wines specifically. But not when someone NOT filtering is somehow required to say so on a label. All of it is already voluntary, and all of it is already leading to wineries openly, hmmmm, let's call it "misstating" when they do. Whatever new law, or labeling, or whatever will not change any of that. I seriously doubt OP is asking about d'Yquem of Goldkapsels production.

I do not make whites, nor sweets, I do not filter, I do not do much of anything. Lazy man's wine making, as we call it. I see absolutely no reason why I need to deny any of what I do NOT do on a label. Plenty of unnatural wines around for that, to claim things they actually fail to do (We do not add any SO2, but we do when needed BS). But, you know, "vegan", "natural", whatever, "We're the honest ones, really, trust us!".

This entire discussion rears its head every few months, and is really about LABELING, seems you have missed the point of OP. Making it clear for you. For someone discussing beer production OP seems to be on the wrong board. As already discussed, and explained in great detail, on this board, with this exact topic, last year at least once, labeling in wine will not work. For a number of reasons. Main one is wineries already openly lie on labels, and no new law, or whatever, will ever eradicate that. Human nature. There are other reasons even more severe, logistical ones, as already covered in that other older thread, and not sure I need to explain them to you, of all people. You're making wine, not beer or hard soda via some predictable and controlled and repeatable formula, and logistics in testing for "denials" on labels will take many months, at best. Main reason I said to buy from people one trusts, same as in any other business.

"Have you stopped beating your wife?" Or, rather, "Have you stopped using arsenic in your wine production?"

You are always more than welcome to put anything you want on your labels, of course, no one is stopping you. No need to force the rest of us to deny what we do not do in the first place.

This entire discussion belongs on the 3BC fans discussion board: filtering, additives, oak dust, sub-par fruit, etc. I am buying all the popcorn I can for the upcoming series of "Our wines have not suffered any smoke damage in v2020, just the vineyard/block across the fence/road". And, betting heavily and unfortunately, on this board as well, it already started just weeks after the disaster hit last year. Funny, or sad, depending on how one looks at it, in how so many consumers haven't caught that at the time. Will be an interesting scene to observe (something I discussed with my closures rep last week for 40 minutes after his tasting with a number of higher end producers). Marketing.

So much for "truth in labeling", or how pointless it is. I think many will be surprised by the producers they trust, and not in a good way.
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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#60 Post by larry schaffer »

Greg,

I really don't understand why you take exception to people taking exception to your statement about filtering - I find it 'incorrect' that most good/great wines are not filtered'. There are many red wines that are filtered - and not must 'mass market' reds. To me, this is one of those 'conventional wisdoms' that seems to have become 'fact' because it's said so often without being able to back it up. Kind of like you can't age red wines in screw cap and have them develop over time as they do under natural cork. Absolute BS.

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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#61 Post by D@vid Bu3ker »

GregP wrote: April 9th, 2021, 4:02 pm
Marcus Goodfellow wrote: April 5th, 2021, 7:35 am
GregP wrote: April 4th, 2021, 11:22 pm Most good/great wines are not filtered. Have no idea what the premise of this thread is.
Most good and great wines from the Mosel are filtered. There are lots of truly great wines that are not filtered and lots that are.

It’s a tool, and in cool vintages filtration of red wines can be a benefit by removing minor astringencies allowing the fruit to blossom. In reverse, having a tiny amount of turbidity in hot vintages can add astringency and help balance out overt fruit and sweetness.

That said, I also have no idea of the premise of this thread.
Yeah, I have no idea how wines are made, thnk you so much for your input...

Not sure what your point is, this was my statement to Parker himself in our argument over his POV that filtered wines have no soul. Including pointing out his 100 pointers for d'Yquem, and, well, German Rieslings. What a coincidence, huh? I am all for filtering WHEN it needs to be done, in sweet and off dry wines specifically. But not when someone NOT filtering is somehow required to say so on a label. All of it is already voluntary, and all of it is already leading to wineries openly, hmmmm, let's call it "misstating" when they do. Whatever new law, or labeling, or whatever will not change any of that. I seriously doubt OP is asking about d'Yquem of Goldkapsels production.

I do not make whites, nor sweets, I do not filter, I do not do much of anything. Lazy man's wine making, as we call it. I see absolutely no reason why I need to deny any of what I do NOT do on a label. Plenty of unnatural wines around for that, to claim things they actually fail to do (We do not add any SO2, but we do when needed BS). But, you know, "vegan", "natural", whatever, "We're the honest ones, really, trust us!".

This entire discussion rears its head every few months, and is really about LABELING, seems you have missed the point of OP. Making it clear for you. For someone discussing beer production OP seems to be on the wrong board. As already discussed, and explained in great detail, on this board, with this exact topic, last year at least once, labeling in wine will not work. For a number of reasons. Main one is wineries already openly lie on labels, and no new law, or whatever, will ever eradicate that. Human nature. There are other reasons even more severe, logistical ones, as already covered in that other older thread, and not sure I need to explain them to you, of all people. You're making wine, not beer or hard soda via some predictable and controlled and repeatable formula, and logistics in testing for "denials" on labels will take many months, at best. Main reason I said to buy from people one trusts, same as in any other business.

"Have you stopped beating your wife?" Or, rather, "Have you stopped using arsenic in your wine production?"

You are always more than welcome to put anything you want on your labels, of course, no one is stopping you. No need to force the rest of us to deny what we do not do in the first place.

This entire discussion belongs on the 3BC fans discussion board: filtering, additives, oak dust, sub-par fruit, etc. I am buying all the popcorn I can for the upcoming series of "Our wines have not suffered any smoke damage in v2020, just the vineyard/block across the fence/road". And, betting heavily and unfortunately, on this board as well, it already started just weeks after the disaster hit last year. Funny, or sad, depending on how one looks at it, in how so many consumers haven't caught that at the time. Will be an interesting scene to observe (something I discussed with my closures rep last week for 40 minutes after his tasting with a number of higher end producers). Marketing.

So much for "truth in labeling", or how pointless it is. I think many will be surprised by the producers they trust, and not in a good way.
FWIW, Robert Parker himself did not award 100 to a German Riesling. Rovani was the first WA critic to do so.
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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#62 Post by Adam Frisch »

D@vid Bu3ker wrote: April 9th, 2021, 4:44 pm

FWIW, Robert Parker himself did not award 100 to a German Riesling. Rovani was the first WA critic to do so.
My only question is - was it sweet? [wink.gif]
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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#63 Post by D@vid Bu3ker »

Adam Frisch wrote: April 9th, 2021, 10:18 pm
D@vid Bu3ker wrote: April 9th, 2021, 4:44 pm

FWIW, Robert Parker himself did not award 100 to a German Riesling. Rovani was the first WA critic to do so.
My only question is - was it sweet? [wink.gif]
An Eiswein, so completely bone dry. ;)
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