Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

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Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#1 Post by SJeffery »

newhere It seems there are a number of great producers that don't make use of fining or filtration mostly for reds, but a lot of whites, rose, and sparkling are seemingly still likely to be made with various animal derived products to fine/filter. I have a feeling that alternatives are going to become more widely used to try and bring in some new vegan customers. Maybe we'll start to see more dedicated vegan wineries popping up or at least more "vegan friendly" labeling, but the major hold up seems to be tied to the practice of fining and filtration. "Natural" producers may be less likely to use these practices, but are more likely to practice biodynamic, which some extra particular vegans may not be fond of as well. What do the winemakers or winery employees of this board think? If you know some of your products are vegan friendly, but aren't interested in having a certification then you should consider reaching out to the site Barnivore.com to let the vegan community know about you!If the amount of vegans in the world continues to grow and they have a thirst for tasty booze they are likely to be a bit disappointed with how it appears the wine world is far more behind than the beer and spirit industry on this.
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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#2 Post by Marcus Goodfellow »

Filtration requires no animal products at all. There are a couple of vegan fining options as well, although I don’t think their use is widespread. There are many white wines that only go through filtration(and plenty that don’t even do that).
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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#3 Post by GregP »

Most good/great wines are not filtered. Have no idea what the premise of this thread is.
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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#4 Post by SJeffery »

GregP wrote: April 4th, 2021, 11:22 pm Most good/great wines are not filtered. Have no idea what the premise of this thread is.
You might be right, but until producers state that they do not fine/filter 100% of the time or that they use animal product free alternatives 100% of the time they are leaving money on the table. If you don't want to believe me now I can assure you this will become more of an issue in the future. Currently the vast majority of producers do not indicate any philosophy that wine should be free of animal products. I believe most Berserkers know that wine is centered around good viticulture, good winemaking, and not much else. Use of egg white, mega purple, isinglass, etc. is unnecessary and doesn't seem to add to the final product. Wine *should* naturally be vegan even with many winemaking techniques. Transparency is important. Listening to your customers is important. Realizing a newer generation is less interested in your product for a reason is also important. Modern Times is one of the quickest growing breweries in the world and they state that all their products are vegan. Is that just coincidence? Even Guinness is making sure their customers know they are not using isinglass for their classic stout after getting a lot of backlash over its previous use of it.
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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#5 Post by SJeffery »

Marcus Goodfellow wrote: April 4th, 2021, 9:58 pm Filtration requires no animal products at all. There are a couple of vegan fining options as well, although I don’t think their use is widespread. There are many white wines that only go through filtration(and plenty that don’t even do that).
Marcus, that is my opinion as well. I am a bit concerned over the lack of transparency on the topic as it very clearly seems to be an optional step for both fining and filtration. If you are putting out a product that commands the price tags of many fine wines I would hope that you could successfully sell your wine to someone who wants to avoid a small handful of animal products that are entirely optional in winemaking. This doesn't mean your tasting room needs to become all vegan (wine + cheese or charcuterie is likely here to stay), but this is different from the current state of breweries where by default everything is vegan and some trendy brewers choose to add lactose, bacon, or other non-veg friendly adjuncts to their beer. I'm not asking non-vegans to boycott non-vegan wines, that would be silly. I'm just here to raise the questions before the market likely makes it known that this is going to be a relic of the past.
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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#6 Post by GregP »

SJeffery wrote: April 4th, 2021, 11:40 pm
GregP wrote: April 4th, 2021, 11:22 pm Most good/great wines are not filtered. Have no idea what the premise of this thread is.
You might be right, but until producers state that they do not fine/filter 100% of the time or that they use animal product free alternatives 100% of the time they are leaving money on the table. If you don't want to believe me now I can assure you this will become more of an issue in the future. Currently the vast majority of producers do not indicate any philosophy that wine should be free of animal products. I believe most Berserkers know that wine is centered around good viticulture, good winemaking, and not much else. Use of egg white, mega purple, isinglass, etc. is unnecessary and doesn't seem to add to the final product. Wine *should* naturally be vegan even with many winemaking techniques. Transparency is important. Listening to your customers is important. Realizing a newer generation is less interested in your product for a reason is also important. Modern Times is one of the quickest growing breweries in the world and they state that all their products are vegan. Is that just coincidence? Even Guinness is making sure their customers know they are not using isinglass for their classic stout after getting a lot of backlash over its previous use of it.
You started the thread with a false positive, and a bad assumption. To begin with...

When I have not done anything to the wine in the bottle outside of "crush, macerate, punch down, press and age" I see absolutely no reason to make a statement about whatever negative and imagenary issue YOU may have. This subject of "labeling" is way too tiring by now, doesn't matter what you think. There is WAY MORE taking place in a bottle of so called and, in my view, a MISNOMER of a "natural wine" than you want to know. And yet... Wine I make is EONS more NATURAL and CLEAN than whatever you end up buying labeled as such. That's all I need to know. I find it hilarious that while everyone claims that great wine starts in the vineyard, and, well, it does!, some then completely ignore the very valid and obvious premise and buy "unnatural wine" from "You pick your own bushel" type vineyards. There is a reason great fruit costs great money and takes great effort to stay great throughout the growing season, ending with a picking crew doing a clean pick and keeping the fruit fresh while trasporting to the winery. I've seen my share of cheap ass U-Haul truck rentals used to pick up fruit, by the time it arrived at the winery no responsible winemaker should have touched it. And yet...

It only snow balls from there. I never leave the winery until each and every piece of equipment I use or touch is cleaned and ready to go the next morning, even when at times I was dead tired and it was 1AM before I even got into the car to drive home (95 miles one way at times). I seriously doubt this "cleanliness protocol" instilled in me from Day 1 is followed by all the "unnatural wine" guys. "Labeling" means nothing to me when I KNOW some are lying on theirs, and WILL LIE no matter how many laws are passed. Its human nature, preying on the weak minded and uneducated consumers.

Cotturi was probably one of the fathers of this "unnatural wine" movement, and almost every bottle was an adventure, no 2 tasting same. Probably still is, I have not tasted any in a while, and have absolutely no inclination to. Used to be a tough sell in my days in retail. I somehow doubt you even know the name while rambling on the subject.

Do a search of the board next time you start a thread, this subject is a deadhorse

You either trust the wine maker you buy from, or no label will ever help you. No way, no how. Same as in any other business.

Over and out. Have fun in your adventures demanding meaningless "labeling".
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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#7 Post by Chris Crutchfield »

SJeffery wrote: April 4th, 2021, 11:40 pm Modern Times is one of the quickest growing breweries in the world and they state that all their products are vegan. Is that just coincidence?
I am sympathetic to your position overall, but rhetoric like the above that imply causality seem pretty disingenuous. It actually detracts from your argument.

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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#8 Post by Robert Sand »

Even when fining with egg-white nothing of it remains in the finished wine ... so what? And there is always bentonit as alternative ...

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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#9 Post by Doug Schulman »

SJeffery wrote: April 4th, 2021, 7:03 pm the amount of vegans in the world continues to grow and they have a thirst for tasty booze they are likely to be a bit disappointed with how it appears the wine world is far more behind than the beer and spirit industry on this.
Yes, I agree with this, and I've talked to quite a few firsthand who are disappointed with not knowing which wines are vegan.
SJeffery wrote: April 4th, 2021, 7:03 pm "Natural" producers may be less likely to use these practices, but are more likely to practice biodynamic, which some extra particular vegans may not be fond of as well.
Once you start throwing the word "natural" around, you'll get some people a bit fired up, as you can already see in the post that largely argues against assertions you didn't make. That aside (it shouldn't really matter), if a wine hasn't been treated with animal products, it is vegan, correct? So, if you say there are biodynamic practices that some vegans wouldn't like, a statement that a wine is vegan would not help those people to know that. It is a shame that wanting to know a wine hasn't been fined with animal products often pushes people into the natural category, where they really shouldn't need to be, and where they might find a lot of wines that they don't like.
SJeffery wrote: April 4th, 2021, 11:51 pm
Marcus Goodfellow wrote: April 4th, 2021, 9:58 pm Filtration requires no animal products at all. There are a couple of vegan fining options as well, although I don’t think their use is widespread. There are many white wines that only go through filtration(and plenty that don’t even do that).
Marcus, that is my opinion as well. I am a bit concerned over the lack of transparency on the topic as it very clearly seems to be an optional step for both fining and filtration. If you are putting out a product that commands the price tags of many fine wines I would hope that you could successfully sell your wine to someone who wants to avoid a small handful of animal products that are entirely optional in winemaking. This doesn't mean your tasting room needs to become all vegan (wine + cheese or charcuterie is likely here to stay), but this is different from the current state of breweries where by default everything is vegan and some trendy brewers choose to add lactose, bacon, or other non-veg friendly adjuncts to their beer. I'm not asking non-vegans to boycott non-vegan wines, that would be silly. I'm just here to raise the questions before the market likely makes it known that this is going to be a relic of the past.
Please note Marcus' point that filtration requires no animal products. You're really just talking about fining, but you keep lumping it together with filtration. Also, these processes are not really seen as optional by many producers for a number of reasons. I'll leave out filtration since it isn't actually relevant. Fining is often used to clarify and/or soften mouthfeel. Those can be important changes for wines in certain categories and price ranges, and especially for anything made in very large quantities.
Chris Crutchfield wrote: April 5th, 2021, 1:29 am
SJeffery wrote: April 4th, 2021, 11:40 pm Modern Times is one of the quickest growing breweries in the world and they state that all their products are vegan. Is that just coincidence?
I am sympathetic to your position overall, but rhetoric like the above that imply causality seem pretty disingenuous. It actually detracts from your argument.
I totally agree with Chris here. It's quite a small percentage of people who self-identify as vegan, and polling for something like that is likely to produce a hugely inflated number compared to true vegans who are strict enough to care about this issue. (see https://sentientmedia.org/how-many-vega ... n-the-u-s/, "To get the full picture, researchers also asked about what participants had eaten in the past 24 hours on two separate occasions. Of the self-identifying vegetarians, 64% had eaten at least 10 grams of meat in one or both of the 24-hour periods.") The true target audience you're talking about is tiny. It's ridiculously unlikely that they are affecting the market in any meaningful way.

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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#10 Post by D@vid Bu3ker »

SJeffery wrote: April 4th, 2021, 11:51 pm I'm just here to raise the questions before the market likely makes it known that this is going to be a relic of the past.
That's a little extreme. Are you seriously suggesting some Vegan-wave that fundamentally alters the landscape of alcohol sales?
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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#11 Post by Marcus Goodfellow »

GregP wrote: April 4th, 2021, 11:22 pm Most good/great wines are not filtered. Have no idea what the premise of this thread is.
Most good and great wines from the Mosel are filtered. There are lots of truly great wines that are not filtered and lots that are.

It’s a tool, and in cool vintages filtration of red wines can be a benefit by removing minor astringencies allowing the fruit to blossom. In reverse, having a tiny amount of turbidity in hot vintages can add astringency and help balance out overt fruit and sweetness.

That said, I also have no idea of the premise of this thread.
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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#12 Post by Siun o'Connell »

I assumed the OP had some connection to the link posted (barnivore.com) which lists no contacts or other ways to ID whose operation it is — but it appears to have almost no traffic or participation. I was waiting for a pitch to buy into a certification scheme or something similar. Perhaps not.

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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#13 Post by larry schaffer »

This is such ridiculous thread in so many ways as many of you have pointed out above. But let me go back to one statement that a winemaker made ' most good/great wines are not filtered'. Greg, do you have any statistics to prove this point? It seems like a 'conventional wisdom' that may not be as true as you think it is.

Filtration has such a bad 'connotation' to many wine consumers because it's made to reek of commercialism, of 'industrial winemaking', and that is simply not the case whatsoever.

This is one of those cases where there is way more gray area than there is black and white.

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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#14 Post by Todd Hamina »

Marcus Goodfellow wrote: April 4th, 2021, 9:58 pm Filtration requires no animal products at all. There are a couple of vegan fining options as well, although I don’t think their use is widespread. There are many white wines that only go through filtration(and plenty that don’t even do that).
If you are biodynamic you should not be filtering...
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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#15 Post by Jim Anderson »

GregP wrote: April 4th, 2021, 11:22 pm Most good/great wines are not filtered. Have no idea what the premise of this thread is.
This is just completely wrong. A tremendous number of white wines are filtered because...they have to be. Any wine that does not complete ML is (or should be) filtered. Tons of white wines across the globe fall into this category.

People often times think filtration=bad. It simply is not so. It's a tool.

I haven't seen any surveys but I would presume that the number of wineries using animal based fining products, even egg whites, has declined radically over the past coupld of decades. I don't know a single producer that uses egg white fining. Again, not like that's some massive number of people but it is not insignificant.
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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#16 Post by larry schaffer »

Jim Anderson wrote: April 5th, 2021, 10:32 am
GregP wrote: April 4th, 2021, 11:22 pm Most good/great wines are not filtered. Have no idea what the premise of this thread is.
This is just completely wrong. A tremendous number of white wines are filtered because...they have to be. Any wine that does not complete ML is (or should be) filtered. Tons of white wines across the globe fall into this category.

People often times think filtration=bad. It simply is not so. It's a tool.

I haven't seen any surveys but I would presume that the number of wineries using animal based fining products, even egg whites, has declined radically over the past coupld of decades. I don't know a single producer that uses egg white fining. Again, not like that's some massive number of people but it is not insignificant.
Agree as I stated above. And please don't minimize the filtration of reds as well. I WISH that certain regions like CdP filtered more so that I didn't have to play 'russian roulette' determining the brett level of wines based on provenance and shipping temperatures [swearing.gif]

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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#17 Post by William Kelley »

Doug Schulman wrote: April 5th, 2021, 5:25 am Fining is often used to clarify and/or soften mouthfeel.
Protein stability in whites is the big thing. But for that you fine with bentonite.

Egg white finning is still reasonably common in Bordeaux but rare in Burgundy (Coche still does it, saying that it improves long-term aging at the expense of near-term expressiveness; whereas Aubert de Villiane has told me that "red Burgundy doesn't take to being fined any more"). I confess to being quite interested in it as a technique. If nothing else because fining, along with racking, is one of the two big things missed out of most discussions of "modern" versus "old fashioned" winemaking: serious Bordeaux, for example, as recently as the 1960s, would be racked every six months and fined several times before bottling, three years after the vintage. Contemporary élevage orthodoxies are very different.

It's a pity, seeing the title of the thread, I thought this might have been an interesting discussion of the state-of-the-art, but instead it appears to be a question of whether or not to appease militant vegans.
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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#18 Post by Marcus Goodfellow »

Todd Hamina wrote: April 5th, 2021, 10:18 am
Marcus Goodfellow wrote: April 4th, 2021, 9:58 pm Filtration requires no animal products at all. There are a couple of vegan fining options as well, although I don’t think their use is widespread. There are many white wines that only go through filtration(and plenty that don’t even do that).
If you are biodynamic you should not be filtering...
???

Not sure that I understand why that is? Biodynamic isn’t the same mantra as “natural” at all.

And even so, a lot of the Willamette Valley’s “natty” producers filter now, to pin the wines in place and prevent them from going downhill in bottle. (Which is smart on their part)
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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#19 Post by Nick Christie »

William Kelley wrote: April 5th, 2021, 11:10 am It's a pity, seeing the title of the thread, I thought this might have been an interesting discussion of the state-of-the-art, but instead it appears to be a question of whether or not to appease militant vegans.
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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#20 Post by Marcus Goodfellow »

William Kelley wrote: April 5th, 2021, 11:10 am
Doug Schulman wrote: April 5th, 2021, 5:25 am Fining is often used to clarify and/or soften mouthfeel.
Protein stability in whites is the big thing. But for that you fine with bentonite.

Egg white finning is still reasonably common in Bordeaux but rare in Burgundy (Coche still does it, saying that it improves long-term aging at the expense of near-term expressiveness; whereas Aubert de Villiane has told me that "red Burgundy doesn't take to being fined any more"). I confess to being quite interested in it as a technique. If nothing else because fining, along with racking, is one of the two big things missed out of most discussions of "modern" versus "old fashioned" winemaking: serious Bordeaux, for example, as recently as the 1960s, would be racked every six months and fined several times before bottling, three years after the vintage. Contemporary élevage orthodoxies are very different.

It's a pity, seeing the title of the thread, I thought this might have been an interesting discussion of the state-of-the-art, but instead it appears to be a question of whether or not to appease militant vegans.
So let’s encourage your thread drift and make this a bit more interesting.

Completely speculating, I would guess fining and racking are declining from modern winemaking because of the ability to minimize microbial populations in other ways. Use of steam, ozone, and newer fining agents like aspergillus niger(vegan) and lysozyme(found in egg whites and tears), and cross-flow filtration all make controlling microbial populations easier than it was(by far) in the 1960s.

Back then, egg whites would clarify a wine and drop sediments to the bottom of the barrel. Racking off those lees would drastically reduce the number of cells in a growing microbial population, but not eradicate it. Redoing the process every 6 months would be a way to minimize these types of issues. It does remove the possibility of textural enhancent from autolysis of lees though, and many modern producers(myself included) prefer to stay on the lees as long as possible.

I am however, completely speculating on that.
Last edited by Marcus Goodfellow on April 5th, 2021, 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#21 Post by Scott Tallman »

William Kelley wrote: April 5th, 2021, 11:10 am
Doug Schulman wrote: April 5th, 2021, 5:25 am Fining is often used to clarify and/or soften mouthfeel.
Protein stability in whites is the big thing. But for that you fine with bentonite.

Egg white finning is still reasonably common in Bordeaux but rare in Burgundy (Coche still does it, saying that it improves long-term aging at the expense of near-term expressiveness; whereas Aubert de Villiane has told me that "red Burgundy doesn't take to being fined any more"). I confess to being quite interested in it as a technique. If nothing else because fining, along with racking, is one of the two big things missed out of most discussions of "modern" versus "old fashioned" winemaking: serious Bordeaux, for example, as recently as the 1960s, would be racked every six months and fined several times before bottling, three years after the vintage. Contemporary élevage orthodoxies are very different.

It's a pity, seeing the title of the thread, I thought this might have been an interesting discussion of the state-of-the-art, but instead it appears to be a question of whether or not to appease militant vegans.
Funny, I read the OP and thought it could have resulted in a somewhat interesting discussion around these techniques, their usage and proper labeling that could be informative for many wine consumers, both vegan and not, but instead it appears to be mostly flippant responses and off-topic points with the occasional uncalled for dunking on a segment of potential customers. By all means, go on...
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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#22 Post by Marcus Goodfellow »

Scott Tallman wrote: April 5th, 2021, 11:33 am
William Kelley wrote: April 5th, 2021, 11:10 am
Doug Schulman wrote: April 5th, 2021, 5:25 am Fining is often used to clarify and/or soften mouthfeel.
Protein stability in whites is the big thing. But for that you fine with bentonite.

Egg white finning is still reasonably common in Bordeaux but rare in Burgundy (Coche still does it, saying that it improves long-term aging at the expense of near-term expressiveness; whereas Aubert de Villiane has told me that "red Burgundy doesn't take to being fined any more"). I confess to being quite interested in it as a technique. If nothing else because fining, along with racking, is one of the two big things missed out of most discussions of "modern" versus "old fashioned" winemaking: serious Bordeaux, for example, as recently as the 1960s, would be racked every six months and fined several times before bottling, three years after the vintage. Contemporary élevage orthodoxies are very different.

It's a pity, seeing the title of the thread, I thought this might have been an interesting discussion of the state-of-the-art, but instead it appears to be a question of whether or not to appease militant vegans.
Funny, I read the OP and thought it could have resulted in a somewhat interesting discussion around these techniques, their usage and proper labeling that could be informative for many wine consumers, both vegan and not, but instead it appears to be mostly flippant responses and off-topic points with the occasional uncalled for dunking on a segment of potential customers. By all means, go on...
I don’t think that I can comfortably ever label a wine vegan. We don’t use any animal products in the cellar. But vineyards are full of life. Most growers kill gophers and voles, and most fruit farmed in an organically farmed vineyard arrives at the winery with an abundance of insect life on it. You can’t sort out all the bugs. Nor can you stop a fruit fly(or 10,000 of them) from flying over a fermenter at peak fermentation and dying from the CO2.

I also think that yeast are living creatures, more so than cheese at least.

I also guarantee that when the thresher goes through the barley field, there’s a lot of small animal carnage left behind.

I wish it wasn’t that way. But I feel that I would be dishonest for ME to ever put Vegan on my label and try to promote my wine over a competitor through that label.

I don’t judge or criticize others for their choices in this area. If not using animal products in the cellar or brewery is enough, then feel free. But for myself, and Goodfellow wines, I can’t do it.
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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#23 Post by Scott Tallman »

Marcus Goodfellow wrote: April 5th, 2021, 11:45 am
Scott Tallman wrote: April 5th, 2021, 11:33 am
William Kelley wrote: April 5th, 2021, 11:10 am

Protein stability in whites is the big thing. But for that you fine with bentonite.

Egg white finning is still reasonably common in Bordeaux but rare in Burgundy (Coche still does it, saying that it improves long-term aging at the expense of near-term expressiveness; whereas Aubert de Villiane has told me that "red Burgundy doesn't take to being fined any more"). I confess to being quite interested in it as a technique. If nothing else because fining, along with racking, is one of the two big things missed out of most discussions of "modern" versus "old fashioned" winemaking: serious Bordeaux, for example, as recently as the 1960s, would be racked every six months and fined several times before bottling, three years after the vintage. Contemporary élevage orthodoxies are very different.

It's a pity, seeing the title of the thread, I thought this might have been an interesting discussion of the state-of-the-art, but instead it appears to be a question of whether or not to appease militant vegans.
Funny, I read the OP and thought it could have resulted in a somewhat interesting discussion around these techniques, their usage and proper labeling that could be informative for many wine consumers, both vegan and not, but instead it appears to be mostly flippant responses and off-topic points with the occasional uncalled for dunking on a segment of potential customers. By all means, go on...
I don’t think that I can comfortably ever label a wine vegan. We don’t use any animal products in the cellar. But vineyards are full of life. Most growers kill gophers and voles, and most fruit farmed in an organically farmed vineyard arrives at the winery with an abundance of insect life on it. You can’t sort out all the bugs. Nor can you stop a fruit fly(or 10,000 of them) from flying over a fermenter at peak fermentation and dying from the CO2.

I also think that yeast are living creatures, more so than cheese at least.

I also guarantee that when the thresher goes through the barley field, there’s a lot of small animal carnage left behind.

I wish it wasn’t that way. But I feel that I would be dishonest for ME to ever put Vegan on my label and try to promote my wine over a competitor through that label.

I don’t judge or criticize others for their choices in this area. If not using animal products in the cellar or brewery is enough, then feel free. But for myself, and Goodfellow wines, I can’t do it.
Trust me, I get it and personally don’t think a producer of wine or beer needs to go as far as labeling a beer as “vegan.” I’d have a lot of wasted wine in my cellar if I wrote your winery off as not being sufficiently vegan. [wow.gif]

But to help consumers, whether they be vegan or merely trying to minimize animal products, the more info a consumer can discern on the techniques used that would help them decide whether to consume said product the better (whether that’s label or website).

One of my favorite breweries in Seattle does this and the owner gave everyone a advance notice when he switched from refermenting his beers with gyle to honey. I greatly appreciated the candor, and while I no longer drink most of his beers (he still makes a few with gyle), I will continue to support him as much as I can. My take on the OP was that he was merely advocating for similar disclosures.

I understand the position of those that don’t see the value in providing such information. Consumers will react accordingly.
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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#24 Post by Todd Hamina »

Marcus Goodfellow wrote: April 5th, 2021, 11:16 am
Todd Hamina wrote: April 5th, 2021, 10:18 am
Marcus Goodfellow wrote: April 4th, 2021, 9:58 pm Filtration requires no animal products at all. There are a couple of vegan fining options as well, although I don’t think their use is widespread. There are many white wines that only go through filtration(and plenty that don’t even do that).
If you are biodynamic you should not be filtering...
???

Not sure that I understand why that is? Biodynamic isn’t the same mantra as “natural” at all.

And even so, a lot of the Willamette Valley’s “natty” producers filter now, to pin the wines in place and prevent them from going downhill in bottle. (Which is smart on their part)
I must correct myself. Looks like there's room to fine and filter and be Biodynamic...

3.11

Fining agents


Organic
No organic fining agents derived
Egg white from Demeter/organic eggs, Demeter milk and milk products, if
from animals



unavailable organic, Casein.
Non-organic
Bentonite
Bentonite (non-detectible levels of dioxin and arsenic), activated charcoal, Copper sulphate (0.5ppm max), aeration, oxygen including Micro Ox

3.12
Filtration


Organic
Allowable materials Not defined


Cellulose, textile (unbleached/chlorine free)
Non-organic
Bentonite
Diatomaceous earth

Demeter International wine standards: version June 2008


- as an aside I have yet to hear two people describe "Natural" winemaking the same way, so I will reserve comment on that.
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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#25 Post by Marshall Manning »

Marcus Goodfellow wrote: April 5th, 2021, 11:45 am I don’t think that I can comfortably ever label a wine vegan. We don’t use any animal products in the cellar. But vineyards are full of life. Most growers kill gophers and voles, and most fruit farmed in an organically farmed vineyard arrives at the winery with an abundance of insect life on it. You can’t sort out all the bugs. Nor can you stop a fruit fly(or 10,000 of them) from flying over a fermenter at peak fermentation and dying from the CO2.

I also think that yeast are living creatures, more so than cheese at least.

I also guarantee that when the thresher goes through the barley field, there’s a lot of small animal carnage left behind.

I wish it wasn’t that way. But I feel that I would be dishonest for ME to ever put Vegan on my label and try to promote my wine over a competitor through that label.

I don’t judge or criticize others for their choices in this area. If not using animal products in the cellar or brewery is enough, then feel free. But for myself, and Goodfellow wines, I can’t do it.
Glad someone who has actually made commercial wines pointed that out. I was going to say that a totally vegan wine would be impossible to find.
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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#26 Post by Otto Forsberg »

Marcus Goodfellow wrote: April 5th, 2021, 11:45 am I don’t think that I can comfortably ever label a wine vegan...
I think you've misunderstood something. Labeling a products vegan does not mean that no animals were harmed in the process, because that's simply impossible in many processes. Vegan products are made without animal-derived substances as veganism opposes the use of animals for any purpose.
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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#27 Post by Marcus Goodfellow »

Otto Forsberg wrote: April 5th, 2021, 1:46 pm
Marcus Goodfellow wrote: April 5th, 2021, 11:45 am I don’t think that I can comfortably ever label a wine vegan...
I think you've misunderstood something. Labeling a products vegan does not mean that no animals were harmed in the process, because that's simply impossible in many processes. Vegan products are made without animal-derived substances as veganism opposes the use of animals for any purpose.
So it’s ok to kill them. Just not to use them?


I get what you are saying, but for me “use” can not replace “harm” and be something that I promote.

Also, if the crew isn’t vegetarian then animals are being used to make the wines.


I support the choices vegans make, and have the honor not to try and pretend that my product lives up to my interpretation of their choice.
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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#28 Post by D@vid Bu3ker »

So we can sacrifice a gerbil to Bacchus, but as long as we don't fine with egg whites...
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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#29 Post by leslie renaud »

Are you ok with adding biocide to your wine? Velcorin is vegan, therefore it's better than egg whites?

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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#30 Post by Chris C a r y »

The OP reference Barnivore. Here is their survey question about Vegan wine...
Hi, I'm helping to update a global online directory (over 51,000 entries so far) of vegan-friendly alcohol, http://www.barnivore.com/, and I was hoping you could provide some information about [BRAND NAME].

Does [BRAND NAME] contain any animal ingredients (such as milk/lactose/casein, eggs, cochineal, honey, animal-derived enzymes, etc) or are animal products used in the processing/filtration of the product (such as isinglass, gelatin, etc)?

Also, is your product manufactured or bottled anywhere else in the world (by a sub-licensee, for instance) that might use a different processing system, thus making them unsuitable for vegans?

Thanks,
[YOUR NAME]
.

This seems to avoid the vineyard or winery insects (other than cochineal), gophers (marmots and rabbits in my case) questions, as well as whether animals (horses, mules, goats) used in the farming might disqualify a wine as vegan. It also doesn't specifically list yeast, but includes the catch all "etc". I have a good friend who is vegan, and she has explained the honey/bee thing but I still don't understand that one.

I'm all for truth in advertising, but the labelling possibilities are truly endless. The next thing you know someone will want to know whether the grapes were irrigated or not.
Last edited by Chris C a r y on April 5th, 2021, 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#31 Post by Todd Hamina »

Marcus Goodfellow wrote: April 5th, 2021, 2:31 pm
Otto Forsberg wrote: April 5th, 2021, 1:46 pm
Marcus Goodfellow wrote: April 5th, 2021, 11:45 am I don’t think that I can comfortably ever label a wine vegan...
I think you've misunderstood something. Labeling a products vegan does not mean that no animals were harmed in the process, because that's simply impossible in many processes. Vegan products are made without animal-derived substances as veganism opposes the use of animals for any purpose.
So it’s ok to kill them. Just not to use them?

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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#32 Post by Howard Cooper »

GregP wrote: April 4th, 2021, 11:22 pm Most good/great wines are not filtered. Have no idea what the premise of this thread is.
The purpose of this thread seems to be that the OP wants all wines to be vegan.
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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#33 Post by Howard Cooper »

Scott Tallman wrote: April 5th, 2021, 11:33 am
William Kelley wrote: April 5th, 2021, 11:10 am
Doug Schulman wrote: April 5th, 2021, 5:25 am Fining is often used to clarify and/or soften mouthfeel.
Protein stability in whites is the big thing. But for that you fine with bentonite.

Egg white finning is still reasonably common in Bordeaux but rare in Burgundy (Coche still does it, saying that it improves long-term aging at the expense of near-term expressiveness; whereas Aubert de Villiane has told me that "red Burgundy doesn't take to being fined any more"). I confess to being quite interested in it as a technique. If nothing else because fining, along with racking, is one of the two big things missed out of most discussions of "modern" versus "old fashioned" winemaking: serious Bordeaux, for example, as recently as the 1960s, would be racked every six months and fined several times before bottling, three years after the vintage. Contemporary élevage orthodoxies are very different.

It's a pity, seeing the title of the thread, I thought this might have been an interesting discussion of the state-of-the-art, but instead it appears to be a question of whether or not to appease militant vegans.
Funny, I read the OP and thought it could have resulted in a somewhat interesting discussion around these techniques, their usage and proper labeling that could be informative for many wine consumers, both vegan and not, but instead it appears to be mostly flippant responses and off-topic points with the occasional uncalled for dunking on a segment of potential customers. By all means, go on...
Thread drift is not unheard of on this board. Could this be a case where thread drift would make the thread more interesting?
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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#34 Post by D@vid Bu3ker »

Howard Cooper wrote: April 5th, 2021, 4:26 pm
GregP wrote: April 4th, 2021, 11:22 pm Most good/great wines are not filtered. Have no idea what the premise of this thread is.
The purpose of this thread seems to be that the OP wants all wines to be vegan.
Actually, based on his subsequent post, it would appear the OP thinks that non-vegan wines will lose market share due to some anonymous wave of veganism. Fat chance.
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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#35 Post by Scott Tallman »

Howard Cooper wrote: April 5th, 2021, 4:32 pm
Scott Tallman wrote: April 5th, 2021, 11:33 am
William Kelley wrote: April 5th, 2021, 11:10 am

Protein stability in whites is the big thing. But for that you fine with bentonite.

Egg white finning is still reasonably common in Bordeaux but rare in Burgundy (Coche still does it, saying that it improves long-term aging at the expense of near-term expressiveness; whereas Aubert de Villiane has told me that "red Burgundy doesn't take to being fined any more"). I confess to being quite interested in it as a technique. If nothing else because fining, along with racking, is one of the two big things missed out of most discussions of "modern" versus "old fashioned" winemaking: serious Bordeaux, for example, as recently as the 1960s, would be racked every six months and fined several times before bottling, three years after the vintage. Contemporary élevage orthodoxies are very different.

It's a pity, seeing the title of the thread, I thought this might have been an interesting discussion of the state-of-the-art, but instead it appears to be a question of whether or not to appease militant vegans.
Funny, I read the OP and thought it could have resulted in a somewhat interesting discussion around these techniques, their usage and proper labeling that could be informative for many wine consumers, both vegan and not, but instead it appears to be mostly flippant responses and off-topic points with the occasional uncalled for dunking on a segment of potential customers. By all means, go on...
Thread drift is not unheard of on this board. Could this be a case where thread drift would make the thread more interesting?
Not to me. Obviously YMMV.
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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#36 Post by H Wallace Jr »

GregP wrote: April 5th, 2021, 12:55 am I've seen my share of cheap ass U-Haul truck rentals used to pick up fruit, by the time it arrived at the winery no responsible winemaker should have touched it. And yet...

It only snow balls from there.
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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#37 Post by JBrochu »

Howard Cooper wrote: April 5th, 2021, 4:26 pm
GregP wrote: April 4th, 2021, 11:22 pm Most good/great wines are not filtered. Have no idea what the premise of this thread is.
The purpose of this thread seems to be that the OP wants all wines to be vegan.
I thought OP just wanted wineries to let vegans know if their products were vegan friendly or not?

My sister-in-law actually uses the site OP linked and refuses to drink any beers or wines not listed as vegan friendly on that site. Which is unfortunate, because I've cracked many a fine bottle that she refused to drink because it wasn't vegan friendly, even though I believe that the majority of wines are vegan friendly, at least based on how vegans seem to define it. (i.e. - no animal products used for fining.) It's just hard to find that info for most wines. While breweries seem to offer this info much more freely.
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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#38 Post by Ben M a n d l e r »

I love ribs, but I will never understand the derision and vitriol that vegans are met with when they bring up questions about the use of animal products in winemaking and related labeling. On this board, in person among industry colleagues, and on Facebook groups, it’s all the same. Usually the vegan asking the questions doesn’t have all the right information or asks a slightly misinformed question, or maybe has an inflated idea of how important the issue is to the industry as a whole (presumably because it is in fact very important to them and their community), and then that is taken by industry/wine people as evidence that this vegan is an idiot who shouldn’t be taken seriously.

To the OP, let me tell you that the desire to make wine without animal products *does* influence the market of winemaking additives and processing aids. In recent years there have been significant developments in the use of vegan fining alternatives such as pea protein, and chitosan (which has many applications and I believe was originally sourced from crustaceans) is now industrially produced from fungi.

Vegan alternatives to animal-based fining agents do not have exactly the same effects (just as different animal-based fining agents themselves have different effects from one another), so it is difficult to envision these animal-based products disappearing any time soon. For vegans who have made that choice for environmental reasons, the issue is more complex because different fining agents have very different sources and so different impacts along their supply chain.

And, as others have stated on this thread, filtration is vegan, so you don’t have to worry about that one.
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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#39 Post by Otto Forsberg »

[quote="Marcus Goodfellow" post_id=3237474 time=1617658309
So it’s ok to kill them. Just not to use them?
[/quote]

In essence, yes.
I get what you are saying, but for me “use” can not replace “harm” and be something that I promote.

Also, if the crew isn’t vegetarian then animals are being used to make the wines.


I support the choices vegans make, and have the honor not to try and pretend that my product lives up to my interpretation of their choice.
Whatever rocks your boat. However, that sounds like an organic farmer not willing to label their wines organic because their neighbor isn't farming organically and wind can always blow some synthetic chemicals to their side so their honor prevents them from guaranteeing that their wines were farmed according to organic principles.

A vegan does not turn into not vegan if they inadvertently crush a bug while walking to somewhere.
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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#40 Post by Doug Schulman »

Marcus Goodfellow wrote: April 5th, 2021, 2:31 pm
Otto Forsberg wrote: April 5th, 2021, 1:46 pm
Marcus Goodfellow wrote: April 5th, 2021, 11:45 am I don’t think that I can comfortably ever label a wine vegan...
I think you've misunderstood something. Labeling a products vegan does not mean that no animals were harmed in the process, because that's simply impossible in many processes. Vegan products are made without animal-derived substances as veganism opposes the use of animals for any purpose.
So it’s ok to kill them. Just not to use them?


I get what you are saying, but for me “use” can not replace “harm” and be something that I promote.

Also, if the crew isn’t vegetarian then animals are being used to make the wines.


I support the choices vegans make, and have the honor not to try and pretend that my product lives up to my interpretation of their choice.
You’ve made up your own definition. It’s not the real definition. You can rationalize it all you want, but that doesn’t change the accepted definition. A couple if other people have done the same thing in this thread.

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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#41 Post by Philip G »

I had a pair of vegan sneakers, really liked them, I think they were made by Patagonia. I used to tell people they were made from Vegans ;-)

pileon

I agree with some of the posts that more information is better for the consumer but if this is something that can vary for a winemaker from variety and vintage then understand why this would be added work. Having non-militaristic vegetarians in the family who drink wine without concern for animal products I think they would appreciate knowing that a wine was made with no animal products, other than the accidental bug or two.
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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#42 Post by Doug Schulman »

leslie renaud wrote: April 5th, 2021, 2:46 pm Are you ok with adding biocide to your wine? Velcorin is vegan, therefore it's better than egg whites?
If you're going to bother to set up a strawman, at least it could make sense.

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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#43 Post by leslie renaud »

There are wineries that purport to be natural and vegan, using neither fining nor filtration. They use Velcorin instead.

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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#44 Post by Philip G »

leslie renaud wrote: April 6th, 2021, 9:35 am There are wineries that purport to be natural and vegan, using neither fining nor filtration. They use Velcorin instead.
B Cellars wines state "Unfined and unfiltered" on the label but make no mention of being vegan. I find their wines to be delicious with great mouthfeel although their unfined unfiltered Chardonnay seemed to give my wife and friend a roseola reaction.
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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#45 Post by Marcus Goodfellow »

Doug Schulman wrote: April 6th, 2021, 5:27 am
Marcus Goodfellow wrote: April 5th, 2021, 2:31 pm
Otto Forsberg wrote: April 5th, 2021, 1:46 pm

I think you've misunderstood something. Labeling a products vegan does not mean that no animals were harmed in the process, because that's simply impossible in many processes. Vegan products are made without animal-derived substances as veganism opposes the use of animals for any purpose.
So it’s ok to kill them. Just not to use them?


I get what you are saying, but for me “use” can not replace “harm” and be something that I promote.

Also, if the crew isn’t vegetarian then animals are being used to make the wines.


I support the choices vegans make, and have the honor not to try and pretend that my product lives up to my interpretation of their choice.
You’ve made up your own definition. It’s not the real definition. You can rationalize it all you want, but that doesn’t change the accepted definition. A couple if other people have done the same thing in this thread.
I get your post, and used the words “my interpretation” on purpose.

I do understand what Vegan choices are. And I am happy to produce wines that don’t have animal products added in the cellar. But I also have my own need not to feel like a hypocrite. (And because I have a lot of respect for Scott, and would like him to keep buying my wines.)

My wines are there for other people to choose to support or not, and I would go out of business quickly if no one did, but they’re not just a manufactured process.

The vineyard at Whistling Ridge is a living space(for me at least) and when I am there it’s a singular whole that I am a part of and share with a host of other life. Much of which lives and dies as part of a smaller life cycle than my own, and a not insignificant amount dies when we harvest the fruit or shortly thereafter. While this isn’t something I expect anyone to understand, the process is not different for me than when we would butcher chickens or a cow growing up. Some aspect of life sacrifices for my benefit. I’m not wracked by guilt over this, but I do prefer to fully acknowledge it in my own way.

So made by vegan standards or not, I can’t put the label on the bottle while my name is on it. It’s not at all that they don’t meet the standards. It just triggers a feeling that I am disrespecting the place and process in order to inform and appeal to consumers. And whether that’s correct or not isn’t part of the equation, it’s just how it is.
Last edited by Marcus Goodfellow on April 6th, 2021, 11:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#46 Post by Nick Christie »

H Wallace Jr wrote: April 5th, 2021, 5:13 pm Some of the best wines I have ever made I hauled the fruit in a U-Haul. Many of our early Evangelho picks and Rosewood picks were hauled in rental box trucks.
Ha, this is how I envision like half of the magical wines of the 70s got made :).

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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#47 Post by larry schaffer »

Philip G wrote: April 6th, 2021, 9:42 am
leslie renaud wrote: April 6th, 2021, 9:35 am There are wineries that purport to be natural and vegan, using neither fining nor filtration. They use Velcorin instead.
B Cellars wines state "Unfined and unfiltered" on the label but make no mention of being vegan. I find their wines to be delicious with great mouthfeel although their unfined unfiltered Chardonnay seemed to give my wife and friend a roseola reaction.
And for those who are not familiar with Velcorin, it's dimethyldicarbonate (DMDC), a microbial agent that instantly kills live yeast cells. It was developed in Europe and is used on all kinds of products, including Gatorade. It's generally 'applied' at bottling to kill off bacteria and yeast, 'sterilizing' a wine. But it is now sometimes used multiple times during the winemaking process - sometimes at racking to kill off potential brett issues, for instance. Each time it's used, one of the by-products is increased methanol. Some winemakers will jump on here and state that the methanol increase is minimal, and it is, but it can still lead to side affects for some people.

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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#48 Post by Russell Faulkner »

leslie renaud wrote: April 6th, 2021, 9:35 am There are wineries that purport to be natural and vegan, using neither fining nor filtration. They use Velcorin instead.
Please list some.
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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#49 Post by Doug Schulman »

Marcus Goodfellow wrote: April 6th, 2021, 11:19 am
Doug Schulman wrote: April 6th, 2021, 5:27 am
Marcus Goodfellow wrote: April 5th, 2021, 2:31 pm

So it’s ok to kill them. Just not to use them?


I get what you are saying, but for me “use” can not replace “harm” and be something that I promote.

Also, if the crew isn’t vegetarian then animals are being used to make the wines.


I support the choices vegans make, and have the honor not to try and pretend that my product lives up to my interpretation of their choice.
You’ve made up your own definition. It’s not the real definition. You can rationalize it all you want, but that doesn’t change the accepted definition. A couple if other people have done the same thing in this thread.
I get your post, and used the words “my interpretation” on purpose.

I do understand what Vegan choices are. And I am happy to produce wines that don’t have animal products added in the cellar. But I also have my own need not to feel like a hypocrite. (And because I have a lot of respect for Scott, and would like him to keep buying my wines.)

My wines are there for other people to choose to support or not, and I would go out of business quickly if no one did, but they’re not just a manufactured process.

The vineyard at Whistling Ridge is a living space(for me at least) and when I am there it’s a singular whole that I am a part of and share with a host of other life. Much of which lives and dies as part of a smaller life cycle than my own, and a not insignificant amount dies when we harvest the fruit or shortly thereafter. While this isn’t something I expect anyone to understand, the process is not different for me than when we would butcher chickens or a cow growing up. Some aspect of life sacrifices for my benefit. I’m not wracked by guilt over this, but I do prefer to fully acknowledge it in my own way.

So made by vegan standards or not, I can’t put the label on the bottle while my name is on it. It’s not at all that they don’t meet the standards. It just triggers a feeling that I am disrespecting the place and process in order to inform and appeal to consumers. And whether that’s correct or not isn’t part of the equation, it’s just how it is.
Okay, I understand what you're saying. I suppose nothing farmed with machines of any kind could be labeled vegan by your personal standard, so it still seems a bit odd to me, but I am not one to argue with your feelings on honesty and authenticity, especially now that you've explained them so clearly.

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Re: Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

#50 Post by Markus S »

"It's not terroir if you filter"...ooops, wrong thread!
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