After reading through the “Oregon will eventually be better than Burgundy; change my mind” thread, it’s clear that people here have strong opinions one way or another but virtually no one (with 2-3 exceptions) provided substantive comparative characteristics in terms of aromas, flavors, and terroir generally. We can argue back and forth all day without much progress if all we debate is history, pricing, tenure, etc. So what are the characteristics in your mind that make Oregon like Burgundy and what aspects of the terroir make them different to you?
For example, while the Eola Amity Pinots are cooler climate for the most part and remind many of Burgundy (Gevrey for me), I think they have a cranberry and rhubard aroma that is distinctively Oregon. Additionally, the earthy, funky red fruit of Dundee Hills Pinots are quite different (and wonderful) than most of my favorite red-fruited Vosne Romanee or Chambolle Musigny wines. I also can’t fully describe it but generally speaking there is a textural sensuality to many Burgundies that I’ve rarely had in Oregon to date (Goodfellow being one where I have). Is this due to different soil types? Marine influence in Oregon? Would love to hear a few winemakers chime in. I love and collect both regions but won’t pretend to be an expert on either.
It seems more productive to objectively discuss the terroir distinctions and similarities in order to learn more about this subject…
You’re either a glutton for punishment or a real pot stirrer!
I generally try to avoid super-descriptive characteristics when I describe our wines, preferring terms like “red-fruited or darker-fruited,” “hard or soft,” “rich or acidic.” I just don’t see the point in getting into people’s subjective and experiential-based palates with terms that may mean something to me but nothing to them. I am even more loathe to do anything that drags Burgundy into the mix.
Here is my two cents. It is really difficult to draw a direct comparison. Burgundy is village based and Oregon is most certainly not (as I mentioned earlier many famous Dundee Hill wineries/vineyards are actually in Dayton). It is sort of AVA-based here but even then no one would say that there is a particular “style” (or whatever) to the wines of the Chehalem Mountain AVA since it is nearly two dozen miles wide, 6 or so miles thick, covers elevations from 0 to 1,000 or so feet, spans two counties and no less than 3 distinct mother soil types. The Eola-Amity AVA usually is referenced as an Eola-only AVA, with people focusing on wines from the area directly to the NW of Salem but it does go all the way up into Amity. It also covers both volcanic and marine soils. Soil-type might be the most simple way (we do it, in spades) to cross-reference to Burgundy but that is extremely limiting and also disregards many other factors. Lastly, honestly speaking, there are less wineries in Oregon concerned about showing soil-based/site-based/region-based/(hell, even) Pinot Noir-based characteristics in their wine than I think is supposed by the outside-of-Oregon geeky wine consumer. Many people that have wineries here haven’t even really had Burgundy let alone endeavored to get into it (some of that would be being priced out of the benchmark level stuff). I think it almost comes down, literally, to a wine to wine basis from winery to winery. There are parts of our Estate Vineyard that I could see people saying have Morey-like characteristics and other parts that have Volnay-like ones. We attempt to let whatever is there to do the heavy lifting and, ultimately, are utterly unconcerned about what sort of cross-continental comparisons might or might not be made. The folks that I know (admittedly a super small sample size given my, well, personality) that make wine here and both love and actually know Burgundy like Marcus, Ken/Erica, the Etzels, Kelley, Jay Somers, Doug Tunnell and likely a few others I am not coming up with off the top of my head would likely say stuff very similar to this.
Again, I am glad people want to include Oregon in the Burgundy discussion. Being relevant within that context is humbling and fantastic. It means we have scratched and clawed our way up the greasiest of poles, at least to some extent. I’m happy to have people try to place our wines in some sort of much-better defined hierarchy and village/wine style sort of world. It serves what we are doing well while allowing us to merrily just keep doing what we are doing.
I somewhat light-heartedly did a comparison over 2 nights (to conclude tonight) between a really top quality Bourgogne and a Ribbon Ridge AVA Pinot. Ultimately I came to the conclusion that they were qualitatively similar, but very different wines. Even after making the intentional comparison I can’t really put into words what it really means. I would like to know more details about how the grapes were grown and the wines were made for both. Too many variables and too few answers to say “why.”
This past weekend I drank a 2008 Charles Noellat Beaune 1er Les Epenottes alongside a 2017 Goodfellow Whistling Ridge Long Acre. The Goodfellow was much younger of course but it would easily surpass the Noellat at the same age I think. The fruit was more precise and concentrated. That being said, as I alluded to in my OP, the Noellat had beautiful texture.
Texture is worth discussing, as the texture of the H-N Bourgogne was better than the texture of the Vincent. It felt more of a “piece.” The Vincent still seems to need time to come together. I will be interested to see what happens tonight, when I finish both.
Historically, I honestly think a main difference was Burgundy picked a bit greener and often used chaptalization. Too me, (unless it’s a grand cru) Burgundy usually has a bit more acid and less fruit. I think that is less true in these warmer times–but I’ll be interested to see if non-chaptalized Burgundy ages the same too with the sugar/amino acids in the Maillard reaction? https://wineimport.discoursehosting.net/t/upcoming-2020-burgundy-vintage/162791/48
A Burgundy producer that generally picks riper and goes for more extraction is Maison Bertrand Ambroise. Often their wines taste like they come from between Sonoma and Oregon.
This is really interesting. Thank you. Is chaptalization the cause of that elegant, sweet fruit and texture in Burgundy? William’s comments in that thread suggest it’s fairly widespread. I knew it occurred but didn’t realize how often it was utilized.
Over my pay grade. Too me, the only question is how chaptalization effects aging. Outside of tertiary development, I get more nuance from the percent of new oak and stems–but both places can play with that. The reason I started the other thread through, for my palate, it seems that Oregon is often the Goldilocks between Cali and Burgundy. I do love old Burgundy–but have a feeling that I will also love old Oregon pinot. The oldest Oregon I’ve had though is a few from the early 2000’s–where I really love Burgundy with at least 15 years on it. That said, I love the tertiary forest floor notes, and about half of the Burgundy I open from the 90’s is just acidic and shrill with no fruit left (and no forest floor).
Pinot noir on limestone or Pinot noir on rotted basalt. Sugar acceleration or phenolic ripeness. The actual year. All subject to change which, to me, is why having the approach come from an artistic background is nicer that having it come from a scientific background. I only want to solve the puzzle for beauty.
I had an interesting chance to try Domaine Drouhin Oregon wines along with a recent vintage ('17?) village Vosne from Drouhin. The red fruits in all the wines were familiar, perhaps cousins rather than siblings. But the Vosne had a tight, mineral finish that 1) didn’t drink as well as the younger DDO reds, 2) didn’t necessarily mean the wine will surpass the locals, may always be pretty firm if gently so, and 3) reminded me that one key difference between Burgundy and Oregon is texture. I’d be curious to know which Goodfellow (or many?) had a texture that made Dav1d think Burgundy. Generally speaking, if you play the new world / old world game with our wines, there’s just not usually the structure in Oregon wines. I don’t mean - needs more whole cluster or needs more wood. It seems like something in the fruit, so I guess it’s the limestone or just… Burgundy. That said, I’ll be the first to taste a mix blind and screw up which is which. These distinctions I"m talking about are harder to see when the labels aren’t visible.
Some nice points Vincent. Structure, funkiness, minerality and less sweet fruit are all possible tells for Burgs in blind tastings…YMMV. I’ve lost track of the exceptions. Oregon wines tend to have more woodsy (fir, underbrush, mushrooms, etc.) character and are generally softer and less structured than Burgs. Again YMMV and there are also plenty of exceptions.
Personally, I like blind tasting a mix of Pinots (Burgs, OR, CA, NZ, and others). With similarly structured and fruited wines…it can be really tough to confidently declare that a given blind wine is actually Pinot Noir. Much tougher than wine geeks want to admit. Tasting them blind helps shed preconceptions and label bias…which can be pretty intense.
There are so many variables in wine and winemaking, the task of saying what Region X is…Well, it’s not easy to get it right all the time.
I am reminded of a tasting done in the mid 80s, held in NYC, where tasters were asked to guess which wines were from Oregon, California and Burgundy. Because '83 was very ripe in Oregon and Burgundy, but light in California, folks got it wrong most of the time.
This reminds me of what Harry Waugh, then a famous wine writer, said when he was asked if he ever confused Bordeaux for Burgundy: “Not since lunch”
The grape is the paint. Of course my red pigment is probably not the same as your red pigment. Then there’s the choice of canvas. Painting techniques. It goes on and on. Do you like Titian, or do you like Monet? Warhol?
So many variables. So many artistic choices. I am sipping on the last of the 2018 Hudelot-Noellat Bourgogne and 2018 Vincent Armstrong Vineyard. They are very different paintings, but in both I can grasp the core of the art. I can see a line that connects one to the other. I am certain I can find a way to compare them, but to a great extent I don’t feel the need to do that.
Ultimately this is usually the conclusion I reach when doing similar comparisons of grapes and regions. Quality of both are excellent but different, what a surprise right.
One can talk about climate, soil, etc etc but it’s impossible to pin down consistently what one region will show vs another.
Wine is simply one of many food and beverage products where this occurs.
Or maybe picking earlier and perhaps even “greener”. In my first Hugh Johnson wine atlas there was a quote attributed to Robert Drouhin that, “a green Burgundy is a great Burgundy”.
That has always stayed with me. And I am definitely of the mind set that in Oregon we have a place where plants grow extremely well, and most farmers here view beautiful plants as a sign of beautiful fruit.
We picked most of our Pinot Noirs in 2019 ahead of weather. Sept 14th, and while the fruit we hung for flavor made lovely wines as well, I feel there’s more crunch and snap to the early picks from sedimentary soils.
Great thread, lots of good thoughts and two significant posts from Jim in 24 hours is always good for my day.
There must actually be something to the idea of terroir. Many winemakers from Burgundy have made WV wines, and they are distinctly different from their Bourgogne wines.
Same with California. Taste the wines from Adam Lee for example. Peter Rosback posts here on occasion, I’ve tasted his New Zealand wines side by side with his WV wines, and few would ever confuse one for the other.
Certainly tradition, clonal variation, expectations for future value with ageing, and many other factors contribute. Given all that, you would think that if it is possible to reliably emulate Burgundian Pinot Noir in Oregon, or any place else, someone would have it dialed in by now. I happen to appreciate the differences.
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