Richebourg used to outshine Romanée-St-Vivant. Is that really changing?

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Gaudissabois Johan
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Re: Richebourg used to outshine Romanée-St-Vivant. Is that really changing?

#51 Post by Gaudissabois Johan »

Sorry Tom,

the 91 Hudelot-Noerllat R-St-v and the Richeb were equals to the ones made by LEROY and outclassed DRC. I had sufficient bottles of all three. Of course it was trendy to name DRC and LeroY superior. Lalou herself once expressed doubts concerning her RICHEBOURG versus the R-St-V.. I forgot the exact words.. at such a price it shuld be great AND "wash your car" (A. MEADOWS).
SINCERELY JOHAN

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Re: Richebourg used to outshine Romanée-St-Vivant. Is that really changing?

#52 Post by A Songeur »

At Chambolle village level, the HN is very good and pleasant but really consistently inferior to Barthod, Roumier, Mugnier in different ways... no competition in my mind (over period 2009-2012, I stopped buying them for this reason). Of course, Roumier and Mugnier are far more expensive.
HN NSG is his best village (but nowhere near MG both from bas de combe) and I also prefer his Vosne (but also stopped buying). Also lost ability to buy Suchots en primeur which is excellent.
Can't comment on HN/DRC/Leroy debate...at RSV/Riche level.
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Re: Richebourg used to outshine Romanée-St-Vivant. Is that really changing?

#53 Post by Robert Sand »

Gaudissabois Johan wrote: April 6th, 2021, 1:45 am Sorry Tom,

the 91 Hudelot-Noerllat R-St-v and the Richeb were equals to the ones made by LEROY and outclassed DRC. I had sufficient bottles of all three. Of course it was trendy to name DRC and LeroY superior. Lalou herself once expressed doubts concerning her RICHEBOURG versus the R-St-V.. I forgot the exact words.. at such a price it shuld be great AND "wash your car" (A. MEADOWS).
SINCERELY JOHAN
Agree, H-N RSV 91 was great and on par with Rb Jean Gros 1990

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Re: Richebourg used to outshine Romanée-St-Vivant. Is that really changing?

#54 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng »

Tom Reddick wrote: April 5th, 2021, 10:34 pm
Mich@el Ch@ng wrote: April 5th, 2021, 12:17 pm
Tom Reddick wrote: April 5th, 2021, 10:00 am

Magnificently stated.

I was having a hard time answering the original thread because I think what you have said Peter is the much better approach to the question.

More broadly, I am confused how a discussion of the greatest wines of Vosne-Romanee includes H-N, but I gave up with them in the 2002 vintage, so maybe things have changed.
I’d be confused if a discussion of the greatest wines of vosne didn’t include Hudelot Noellat.
Good evening David and Michael,

To start off- apologies if my comment came off as snarky. I was just having a quick read during a quick lunch break and tonight in a more relaxed setting I can see where my comment might have seemed flippant.

For my part, all of my H-N experience (somewhat limited) comes from 1991-2002. It was a different time then- a time when DRC and Leroy were both very easy to obtain and where, aside from Leroy which was already starting to climb dramatically in price for the grand crus, the DRC RSV and Richebourg were similarly priced to the competition. And so it was easier to be a lot more picky and dismiss wines that in modern times- with a new pricing structure, limited availability and more Domaines bringing their A game- are relatively more appealing than they might have been 20 years ago.

I never found the H-N wines to be bad- far from it. If I had one general beef it was that the wines were sometimes a bit muddled- certainly at the middle and lower end- and lacking in detail as compared to the DRC and Leroy versions of similar age. JJ Confuron was another in that category but for a different reason- lovely detailed wine, but too much oak for my taste.

In any event, in an era when my tasting group was drinking DRC and Leroy- among others- on a regular basis, it was just hard to get too excited about H-N, Confuron or Arnoux. All 3 made good wines, but second tier in my book- and with the climate at the time it was easy to give them a miss after a handful of performances that just could not compare to DRC and Leroy.
A little pointless to discuss Leroy, are they even releasing new vintages? the most recent prior vintages are 6-10k. That’s like saying there’s no point in discussing richebourg because Henri Jayer is the best.

DRC is obviously still making great wines from these vineyards, and their RSV has greatly improved over the last decade or so.

I believe that arnoux-lachaux is one of the most rapidly improving producers in burgundy although it’s also rapidly increased in price. Their rsv is probably similar in price to drc now, if not more.

I think Hudelot is probably a step below drc but still a fantastic wine which is consistently good from vintage to vintage.

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Re: Richebourg used to outshine Romanée-St-Vivant. Is that really changing?

#55 Post by Peter Chiu »

Here are official ( and normal ) released priced in Quebec, Canada for Leroy top reds for vintage 1995 : Musigny CA $646.50 same for Chambertin; Richebourg at CA $597 and same for RStV. In other words, her Chambertin and Musigny were the most expensive and was 10% higher than Richebourg and RStV.

Similar situation for vintage 1994 Chambertin and Musigny were at CA $515.......
Last edited by Peter Chiu on April 6th, 2021, 4:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Richebourg used to outshine Romanée-St-Vivant. Is that really changing?

#56 Post by Peter Chiu »

*****A little pointless to discuss Leroy, are they even releasing new vintages? the most recent prior vintages are 6-10k.***


Why not as there is no harm. For example .....when I look back at my wine life ....I would say those were the good old days.

Talking about price vs quality of a burgundy wine - Meursalt - Perrieres. It is getting...to a point of : insanity and most like due to the Chinese factor ( even tough I am Chinese [smileyvault-ban.gif] )

According for Wine-searcher here are average prices : Coche-Dury CA$3427; Roulot CA$1859; Lafon CA$616; PYCM CA$473; and Bouchard CA$151.

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Re: Richebourg used to outshine Romanée-St-Vivant. Is that really changing?

#57 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng »

Peter Chiu wrote: April 6th, 2021, 4:55 am *****A little pointless to discuss Leroy, are they even releasing new vintages? the most recent prior vintages are 6-10k.***


Why not as there is no harm. For example .....when I look back at my wine life ....I would say those were the good old days.

Talking about price vs quality of a burgundy wine - Meursalt - Perrieres. It is getting...to a point of : insanity and most like due to the Chinese factor ( even tough I am Chinese [smileyvault-ban.gif] )

According for Wine-searcher here are average prices : Coche-Dury CA$3427; Roulot CA$1859; Lafon CA$616; PYCM CA$473; and Bouchard CA$151.
It’s fine to discuss but if the wines aren’t available to drink, to purchase then there’s not much basis for comparison.

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Re: Richebourg used to outshine Romanée-St-Vivant. Is that really changing?

#58 Post by Peter Chiu »

Michael ......hmmm - yes it is fine with me also.

How about to look it from this point : human being needs to learn ( and to better themselves ) from past history, it is part of life - no ?

To have a better understand - here are price for DRC from vintage 1995 : RStV CA$323; Richebourg CA$388; LA CA$695 and RC CA$1695.

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Re: Richebourg used to outshine Romanée-St-Vivant. Is that really changing?

#59 Post by Tom Reddick »

I won't be replying. Sorry I wasted my time posting on this topic. I should have known better.
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Re: Richebourg used to outshine Romanée-St-Vivant. Is that really changing?

#60 Post by Peter Chiu »

Peter Chiu said :
(((((....... Talking about price vs quality of a burgundy wine - Meursalt - Perrieres. It is getting...to a point of : insanity and most like due to the Chinese factor ( even tough I am Chinese [smileyvault-ban.gif] ) According for Wine-searcher here are average prices : Coche-Dury CA$3427; Roulot CA$1859; Lafon CA$616; PYCM CA$473; and Bouchard CA$151. ))))))

Michael said :
****A little pointless to discuss Leroy, are they even releasing new vintages? the most recent prior vintages are 6-10k. ****

Michael also said :
****It’s fine to discuss but if the wines aren’t available to drink, to purchase then there’s not much basis for comparison.****


Hi Michael... are you sure ? There will always be Leroy wines to be purchased and to be drunken .......but maybe not for many.

Leroy knows it and their Agents - who receives their yearly allocation - know it. They will continue to do so....until they market themselves out to the maximum level which the market could bear; or to more insane level - according to some experienced burgundy lovers.

I am not trying to start *an argument* with you. Why ? According to *Taoism* : Kind people do not argue. People argue are not kind; and I am a firm believer in *Taosim*.

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Re: Richebourg used to outshine Romanée-St-Vivant. Is that really changing?

#61 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng »

Peter Chiu wrote: April 6th, 2021, 9:53 am Peter Chiu said :
(((((....... Talking about price vs quality of a burgundy wine - Meursalt - Perrieres. It is getting...to a point of : insanity and most like due to the Chinese factor ( even tough I am Chinese [smileyvault-ban.gif] ) According for Wine-searcher here are average prices : Coche-Dury CA$3427; Roulot CA$1859; Lafon CA$616; PYCM CA$473; and Bouchard CA$151. ))))))

Michael said :
****A little pointless to discuss Leroy, are they even releasing new vintages? the most recent prior vintages are 6-10k. ****

Michael also said :
****It’s fine to discuss but if the wines aren’t available to drink, to purchase then there’s not much basis for comparison.****


Hi Michael... are you sure ? There will always be Leroy wines to be purchased and to be drunken .......but maybe not for many.

Leroy knows it and their Agents - who receives their yearly allocation - know it. They will continue to do so....until they market themselves out to the maximum level which the market could bear; or to more insane level - according to some experienced burgundy lovers.

I am not trying to start *an argument* with you. Why ? According to *Taoism* : Kind people do not argue. People argue are not kind; and I am a firm believer in *Taosim*.
The cheapest prices for 2015 Leroy Richebourg and RSV in the world are $10k a bottle from HK and there is nothing newer than 2009 available for sale for any price in the United States.

DRC is obviously widely available from many sources.

I’m fine with using DRC as a reference point, but using unobtainable wines as a benchmark is pointless.

You could make statements like “Every Richebourg is 2nd tier when compared to Henri Jayer” or “No Burgundy can stand up to 1945 DRC RC” which are potentially not incorrect but also likely irrelevant, because so few people will ever get to drink Jayer Richebourg or 45 DRC RC for the purposes of comparison. Even those who may have “drank” them might have been drinking Rudy’s concoctions.

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Re: Richebourg used to outshine Romanée-St-Vivant. Is that really changing?

#62 Post by Peter Chiu »

Micheal.....you do have a important point and also a personal point of view - which I respect fully.

I have been away from Leroy wines for so long .....and I am not aware the current market situation. Thanks for the information.......

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Re: Richebourg used to outshine Romanée-St-Vivant. Is that really changing?

#63 Post by Peter Chiu »

Michael......you are right.

Holy....holy.......I was curious so I did some checkings with wine-searchers just few minutes ago.

The average price for Leroy Musigny was at CA$30,238. RC was at CA $26,365. Roumier's Musigny at CA$18,358.

2015 Leroy Musginy was CA$105,031. 2015 RC at CA$32,661. 2015 Roumier Musigny at CA$25,922.

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Re: Richebourg used to outshine Romanée-St-Vivant. Is that really changing?

#64 Post by Gaudissabois Johan »

Friends,

Looking at the prices Leroy wines fetch I am quite shocked. Where the MUSIGNY is concerned I once bought the wine from that hallowed site. That was when made by DANIEL MOINE who once owned the same vineyard. Of course MOINE has never been a LEROY....

SINCERELY JOHAN

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Re: Richebourg used to outshine Romanée-St-Vivant. Is that really changing?

#65 Post by Peter Chiu »

Johan......I was as shocked as you are.

Insanity...( and must have ) ......would you agree?

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Re: Richebourg used to outshine Romanée-St-Vivant. Is that really changing?

#66 Post by Gaudissabois Johan »

Dear Peter,

INSANITY? That's for sure. Better stick to less expensive specimen i say. They surely are not always inferior wines.......THE CHAMBERTIn by ROUSSEAU costs a fraction of basically alll LEROY wines..Inferior? Not in my book.

SINCERELY JOHAN

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Re: Richebourg used to outshine Romanée-St-Vivant. Is that really changing?

#67 Post by Peter Chiu »

Johan....I love what you said :

****THE CHAMBERTIn by ROUSSEAU costs a fraction of basically alll LEROY wines..Inferior? Not in my book.***

How about this :

(((((........the Chambertin by Damoy - since the late 1990s - costs a fraction of ......THE CHAMBERTIN by ROUSSEAU .......))) ????

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Re: Richebourg used to outshine Romanée-St-Vivant. Is that really changing?

#68 Post by Gaudissabois Johan »

Dear Peter,

If only I could get hold of a few bottles by DAMOY. I once asked them to visit and they told me they do not sell that way. Glad to say I can buy CHAMBERTIN-CLOS-de-BEZE and LATRICIèRES by new supersar DUROCHé. One cannot find all of them....
SINCERELY JOHAN

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Re: Richebourg used to outshine Romanée-St-Vivant. Is that really changing?

#69 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng »

I like Damoy but they’re not Rousseau nor are they cheap, now. I prefer rossignol-trapet or trapet, Bouchard, or Drouhin-Laroze (for Beze) in the “value” category for Chambertin.

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Re: Richebourg used to outshine Romanée-St-Vivant. Is that really changing?

#70 Post by Peter Chiu »

Michael....thanks for the information regarding the pricing situation in USA. I was very surprised to learn from wine-searchers of the prices of Damoy wines in USA - specially their village wine as they are quite reasonable in Hong Kong.

I did matching tastings of the 2 trapets during the early part of my wine life. I prefer the Rossignol and also the Trapet ( 30% ) is more pricier than Rossignal-T here in Quebec.

My go-to Cahmbedrtin/Cdbeze are Damoy and D-Laroze as they are in the *value* category in Quebec.

Johan....merci.

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Re: Richebourg used to outshine Romanée-St-Vivant. Is that really changing?

#71 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng »

Peter Chiu wrote: April 9th, 2021, 6:35 am Michael....thanks for the information regarding the pricing situation in USA. I was very surprised to learn from wine-searchers of the prices of Damoy wines in USA - specially their village wine as they are quite reasonable in Hong Kong.

I did matching tastings of the 2 trapets during the early part of my wine life. I prefer the Rossignol and also the Trapet ( 30% ) is more pricier than Rossignal-T here in Quebec.

My go-to Cahmbedrtin/Cdbeze are Damoy and D-Laroze as they are in the *value* category in Quebec.

Johan....merci.
Trapet (along with arnoux-lachaux) have probably improved the most of any major domaine lately. Prices have also ticked up, unfortunately.

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