Richebourg used to outshine Romanée-St-Vivant. Is that really changing?

[Gaudissabois Johan]

Friends,

RICHEBOURG used to be the greatest Red Burg apart from ROMANEE-CONI and LA TACHE. Nowadays ROMANEE and even ROMANEE-ST-VIVANT are more than just competitors and sometimes if not regularly outshine RICHEBOURG. Christophe Roumier is even convinced that MUSIGNY is indusputably the greatest of them all. What is your opinion?

SINCERELY JOHAN

[Mich@el Ch@ng]

Friends,

RICHEBOURG used to be the greatest Red Burg apart from ROMANEE-CONI and LA TACHE. Nowadays ROMANEE and even ROMANEE-ST-VIVANT are more than just competitors and sometimes if not regularly outshine RICHEBOURG. Christophe Roumier is even convinced that MUSIGNY is indusputably the greatest of them all. What is your opinion?

SINCERELY JOHAN

A Chambolle producer saying they think musigny is the best is surprising?

Rsv has definitely improved lately, at least in the DRC portfolio.

[alan weinberg]

may also have to do w who produces each. For me, RSV has a lacy finesse with some power in the background whereas Richebourg leads with its power. Nice to compare the two where there is the same producer, such as H-N or DRC.

[Howard Cooper]

Among, la Romanee, Richebourg, Musigny and Romanee St. Vivant, my favorite is the one that has been opened up and is in a glass in front of me.

[Barry P]

I thought I remember Aubert saying once that he was unhappy with some of the sources of the RSV, i.e., the old Monge vines. I think he replanted and liked the result a lot more. He used to price the Rich higher than the RSV. It is now the reverse, so Aubert must be happy with the RSV as a general matter.

[Scot H.]

I thought I remember Aubert saying once that he was unhappy with some of the sources of the RSV, i.e., the old Monge vines. I think he replanted and liked the result a lot more. He used to price the Rich higher than the RSV. It is now the reverse, so Aubert must be happy with the RSV as a general matter.

https://illdrinktothatpod.com/episode/ ... -villaine

At 39:10.

[alan weinberg]

I thought I remember Aubert saying once that he was unhappy with some of the sources of the RSV, i.e., the old Monge vines. I think he replanted and liked the result a lot more. He used to price the Rich higher than the RSV. It is now the reverse, so Aubert must be happy with the RSV as a general matter.

https://illdrinktothatpod.com/episode/ ... -villaine

At 39:10.

I will watch that podcast but I recall there were a half dozen RSV plots and one was finally excluded since vines were not up to snuff. Maybe it’s been replanted and added or maybe kept out. Regardless it’s great wine.

[Marcus Dean]

may also have to do w who produces each. For me, RSV has a lacy finesse with some power in the background whereas Richebourg leads with its power. Nice to compare the two where there is the same producer, such as H-N or DRC.

Sums it up nicely

[Gaudissabois Johan]

Friends,

Concerning what C ROUMIER said : I truly believe he was not biased and reallly meant it when he said MUSIGNY was the best wine in all of Burgundy. I know lots of people who would agree. The only disadvantage MUSIGNY has is that it is not a monopole such as RC and LA TACHE. But then again, neither are RICHEBOURG and ROMANEE-St-VIVANT..

[A Songeur]

And Chambertin? and Beze?

[Gaudissabois Johan]

Dear A SONGEUR,

CHAMBERTIN? The one made by ROUSSEAU? Yes. For the rest : too many mediocre Chambertins : try the one made by CAMUS...

SINCERELY JOHAN

[A Songeur]

Also, many people say, because he has a small Musigny parcel, Roumier Bonnes Mares is often better (and more available) than his Musigny...

Ref Richebourg and st Vivant, it may be tastes have changed and people may now prefer the RSV style.

[Mich@el Ch@ng]

Friends,

Concerning what C ROUMIER said : I truly believe he was not biased and reallly meant it when he said MUSIGNY was the best wine in all of Burgundy. I know lots of people who would agree. The only disadvantage MUSIGNY has is that it is not a monopole such as RC and LA TACHE. But then again, neither are RICHEBOURG and ROMANEE-St-VIVANT..

Right, why don’t you ask Rousseau which vineyard he thinks is the best?

[Gaudissabois Johan]

Michael,
I did not "ASK" Roumier. if you believe that EVERYONE is subjective than you are entitled to that opinion. I have another experience. For God's sake..For what it's worth : the late great Charles Rousseau once told me that he believed MONTRACHET was the greatest most complete BURGUNDY.?? Was he drunk???

SINCERELY JOHAAN

[Gaudissabois Johan]

Friends, Next week I am into a sensational "dégustation" in which RSv is being thrown in alongside RICHEBOURG. Winemaker : HUDELOT-NOELLAT where i always admired both giving the nod usually to the sensational RSV. The 91 is one of my greatest Burgundies ever.

SINCERELY JOHAN

[joz€f p1nxten]

Friends, Next week I am into a sensational "dégustation" in which RSv is being thrown in alongside RICHEBOURG. Winemaker : HUDELOT-NOELLAT where i always admired both giving the nod usually to the sensational RSV. The 91 is one of my greatest Burgundies ever.

SINCERELY JOHAN

Are you based in the Belgium? Curious as to how you can organize a large tasting nowadays?

[Gaudissabois Johan]

Dear Joseph,
Don't you worry bout a thing. My friend EARN and myself have been visting the region since 1985 and the two of us organize such tastings solely for the two of us. He is specialized in CLOS VOUGEOT and delivers the wines to be tasted when it is his turn. Me, I specialize in Vosne. Everything CORONA free .

SINCERLEY JOHAN

[joz€f p1nxten]

When I saw the word "sensational", I was expecting a large tasting with tens of bottles of RSV and Richebourg... enjoy and keep us updated

[Mark Golodetz]

Dear A SONGEUR,

CHAMBERTIN? The one made by ROUSSEAU? Yes. For the rest : too many mediocre Chambertins : try the one made by CAMUS...

SINCERELY JOHAN

It makes no sense to judge a vineyard’s potential by its lesser producers. I could make a pretty nasty wine with Romanee Conti grapes with little effort.

Add Dujac, Leroy and Trapet to Rousseau.

[Mich@el Ch@ng]

Michael,
I did not "ASK" Roumier. if you believe that EVERYONE is subjective than you are entitled to that opinion. I have another experience. For God's sake..For what it's worth : the late great Charles Rousseau once told me that he believed MONTRACHET was the greatest most complete BURGUNDY.?? Was he drunk???

SINCERELY JOHAAN

Everything regarding wine is subjective, unless you're performing quantitative analysis of the wine with GC mass spectroscopy or the like.

[Howard Cooper]

Friends, Next week I am into a sensational "dégustation" in which RSv is being thrown in alongside RICHEBOURG. Winemaker : HUDELOT-NOELLAT where i always admired both giving the nod usually to the sensational RSV. The 91 is one of my greatest Burgundies ever.

SINCERELY JOHAN

I have had the Hudelot-Noellat Richebourg and Romanee St. Vivant next to each other a couple of times and could not detect a difference in quality. A different in style and in flavors, yes, a difference in quality, no.

[Howard Cooper]

Dear A SONGEUR,

CHAMBERTIN? The one made by ROUSSEAU? Yes. For the rest : too many mediocre Chambertins : try the one made by CAMUS...

SINCERELY JOHAN

It makes no sense to judge a vineyard’s potential by its lesser producers. I could make a pretty nasty wine with Romanee Conti grapes with little effort.

Add Dujac, Leroy and Trapet to Rousseau.

What Mark says makes sense. In fact, if you wanted to judge what is the best terroir, wouldn't you just taste the best wine from each appellation? Otherwise, aren't you criticizing terroir based on poor farming, winemaking, younger vines, etc.?

[D@vid Bu3ker]

The OP and RTP Latham Richard need to be locked in a steel cage match.

[JBrochu]

The OP and RTP Latham Richard need to be locked in a steel cage match.

X = la Romanee / Richebourg * (Musigny + Romanee St. Vivant)

[joejolesch]

The OP and RTP Latham Richard need to be locked in a steel cage match.

X = la Romanee / Richebourg * (Musigny + Romanee St. Vivant)

This topic being completely out of my wheelhouse, I can add nothing more...but well played, sir...well played.

[Gaudissabois Johan]

Friends,

Of course it is wrong to judge a wine based on the performance of its lesser producers. But then again, Romanee Conti could never have become that famous if it were owned by different producers. Same goes for LA TACHE and LA ROMANEE. As an aside : ROMANEE was not considered a unique wine when made by CLOS FRANTIn and even BOUCHARD. The fact that in spite of having several owners RICHEBOURG is that renowned is because its producers hardly put a foot wrong. GENERALLY SPEAKING that is....This cannot be stated of R-St-V where you have different owners not up there with the very best....(had the 2005 from MUGNERET recently..A Wash out..)
SINCERELY JOHAN

[Peter Chiu]

Dear A SONGEUR,

CHAMBERTIN? The one made by ROUSSEAU? Yes. For the rest : too many mediocre Chambertins : try the one made by CAMUS...

SINCERELY JOHAN

Dear Johan : hmmm - interesting comments ! Sadly I do not have any experience with Chambertins produced by Campus.

So if I understand you correctly, a Chambertin made by Rousseau is a *yes* and that a Chambertins made by Campus is : mediocre.

So if Rousseau made a Richerbourg, it would be a *yes* for you and if a RStV is made by Campus, it would be a : mediocre. I am confuse

What is the main purpose of your thread ?

Logically speak : a world of born is not a world of made.

What I mean is if we are going to have a friendly discussion among the site of Richebourg vs the the site of RStV and or with other g-cru, for example : La Romanee, Musigny without mentioning the skill of a underwhelm producer, then we will have a meaningful discussion.




*****It makes no sense to judge a vineyard’s potential by its lesser producers. I could make a pretty nasty wine with Romanee Conti grapes with little effort.
Add Dujac, Leroy and Trapet to Rousseau.****

[Gaudissabois Johan]

Dear Peter,

My main intention is to start an interesting discussion among BURGUNDY fans. The Richebourg versus R-St-v topic seems intersting to me. The question is : is there a difference because of terroir or because of mediocre producers versus great ones. And indeed :: if ROUSSEAU produced a RICHEBOURG it would surprise me if it turned out to be mediocre. Camus on the other hand would equally surprise me if his version turned out top.....
Feel fee to disagree..
SINCERELY JOHAN

[Mich@el Ch@ng]

To answer your original question I think that it is true but only for DRC. That has to do with improvements in farming in the vineyard by drc moreso than anything else, IMO. DRC RSV is my largest holding from drc because I like the style, although I do have a lot of richebourg as well.

[D@vid Bu3ker]

The OP and RTP Latham Richard need to be locked in a steel cage match.

X = la Romanee / Richebourg * (Musigny + Romanee St. Vivant)

You forgot the Veroilles target, and we need a correction factor for the portion of Musigny planted to white. Please revise and resubmit before the end of the semester.

[Peter Chiu]

Dear Peter,

My main intention is to start an interesting discussion among BURGUNDY fans. The Richebourg versus R-St-v topic seems intersting to me. The question is : is there a difference because of terroir or because of mediocre producers versus great ones. And indeed :: if ROUSSEAU produced a RICHEBOURG it would surprise me if it turned out to be mediocre. Camus on the other hand would equally surprise me if his version turned out top.....
Feel fee to disagree..
SINCERELY JOHAN

Johan.....thanks for the nice reply.

I noticed that you have lots, and lots of experience with the wines which I admired most : Burgundy. Most posters in this Board were posters in the ParkerB before. I noticed that you just joint us for a year now and you have re-visited some old threads here and your opinions and described of your experiences are of very valued and interesting to me, personally of course.

Here is my personal view for enjoyment of a red bottle of burgundy wine : (1) your preferred producers due to *their styles of elevage*; (2) your preferred producers for your prefer vineyards ( or AC ); (3) your preferred produces who styles go well with the general character of a particular vintage year.

Those are the basic rules - in my view.

Now to follow the above a truly burgundy lover, beside he needs to have he knowledge, then experience ...plus : a right approach.

What is the right approach ? What is the definition of a great glass of burgundy wine of wine in front of me ? Its complexity. The standard of complexity should not be arbitrary but the signs should be there. In other words, I will goes back again and again...to check, to sniff and to swirl. Do we have to pay more to have these kind of experiences ? Yes most of the time and no sometimes. It depends.....

For your planned tasting of RStV vs Richebourg by H-N.....hopefully the wines were from the same vintage year. If possible how about put along side a Vose-1er cru by H-N of the same vintage year ?

[Peter Chiu]

To answer your original question I think that it is true but only for DRC. That has to do with improvements in farming in the vineyard by drc moreso than anything else, IMO. DRC RSV is my largest holding from drc because I like the style, although I do have a lot of richebourg as well.

Yes - Michael : lots of improvement by DRC in VStV....and charges you accordingly.

[alan weinberg]

To answer your original question I think that it is true but only for DRC. That has to do with improvements in farming in the vineyard by drc moreso than anything else, IMO.

I think it had to do more w exclusion of one parcel of the RSV that was somewhat green.

[William Kelley]

Friends, Next week I am into a sensational "dégustation" in which RSv is being thrown in alongside RICHEBOURG. Winemaker : HUDELOT-NOELLAT where i always admired both giving the nod usually to the sensational RSV. The 91 is one of my greatest Burgundies ever.

SINCERELY JOHAN

I'd be amazed if the Richebourg didn't win. I have discussed this with Charles van Canneyt a number of times, and his opinion is that, with time, the Richebourg always turns out to be the better of the two. My experience has been the same.

[alan weinberg]

Friends, Next week I am into a sensational "dégustation" in which RSv is being thrown in alongside RICHEBOURG. Winemaker : HUDELOT-NOELLAT where i always admired both giving the nod usually to the sensational RSV. The 91 is one of my greatest Burgundies ever.

SINCERELY JOHAN

I'd be amazed if the Richebourg didn't win. I have discussed this with Charles van Canneyt a number of times, and his opinion is that, with time, the Richebourg always turns out to be the better of the two. My experience has been the same.

at H-N only or elsewhere also?

[A Songeur]

The RSV HN 91 was amazing...never had a Richebourg HN... Good luck! Should be great...

[Gaudissabois Johan]

Dear Peter,

Thanks for your reply. The reason I only joined a year ago was because before I had never heard of this exciting forum. It was ever so thrilling to renew old threads. I must admit this is great fun to me. Exchanging views with lots of connoisseurs on the great wines of Burgundy. Even Bill Nanson and William Kelly join in from time to time which is truly amazing. If WINE ADVOCATE gave William more space to write on Burgundy I would subscribe.
SINCERELY JOHAN

[William Kelley]

Friends, Next week I am into a sensational "dégustation" in which RSv is being thrown in alongside RICHEBOURG. Winemaker : HUDELOT-NOELLAT where i always admired both giving the nod usually to the sensational RSV. The 91 is one of my greatest Burgundies ever.

SINCERELY JOHAN

I'd be amazed if the Richebourg didn't win. I have discussed this with Charles van Canneyt a number of times, and his opinion is that, with time, the Richebourg always turns out to be the better of the two. My experience has been the same.

at H-N only or elsewhere also?

Only at Hudelot-Noëllat.

When I look at the three places where I taste both appellations from the same producer (the only meaningful comparison), I'd say that Richebourg has the edge at Hudelot-Noëllat, the Saint-Vivant has the edge chez Leroy, and at DRC, they're quite evenly matched these days, with sometimes one, sometimes the other seeming the more promising.

[Peter Chiu]

Chez DRC ....Richebourg is Sophia and RStV is Gina.

Complexity in richness vs complexity in delicacy(?-no?).

[Peter Chiu]

Dear Peter,

Thanks for your reply. The reason I only joined a year ago was because before I had never heard of this exciting forum. It was ever so thrilling to renew old threads. I must admit this is great fun to me. Exchanging views with lots of connoisseurs on the great wines of Burgundy. Even Bill Nanson and William Kelly join in from time to time which is truly amazing. If WINE ADVOCATE gave William more space to write on Burgundy I would subscribe.
SINCERELY JOHAN

Merci....Johan.

****Exchanging views with lots of connoisseurs on the great wines of Burgundy. ****

Here is what Krama said regarding The Notion of Connoisseur-ship : a truly connoisseur must yield freely to the fact that greatness is not just the province of a few time-honored plots of landing in Burgundy.

By looking your posts here, it looks like you never drunk a village wine ?

Most likely I am wrong....because .....you did not post your experiences about them.

If you like Chambertin by Rousseau, try to do a matching tasting of Damoy Chambertin and his Clos Tamisot; and also the same matching tasting of Rousseau Chamberitn and his village Gevrey !

[Robert Sand]

Friends, Next week I am into a sensational "dégustation" in which RSv is being thrown in alongside RICHEBOURG. Winemaker : HUDELOT-NOELLAT where i always admired both giving the nod usually to the sensational RSV. The 91 is one of my greatest Burgundies ever.

SINCERELY JOHAN

I'd be amazed if the Richebourg didn't win. I have discussed this with Charles van Canneyt a number of times, and his opinion is that, with time, the Richebourg always turns out to be the better of the two. My experience has been the same.

In my experience it depends - I agree that in the long(est) run the Rb - generally, not only at H-N - has more potential ... so when comparing Rb and RSV after 30+ years usually has more to give, but at 10, 15, 20 years the perfume, fragance and complexity of a RSV often wins. We had a comparative tasting some years ago where this was obvious, best (younger) wine was RSV Cathiard and Confuron, best middle aged were Rb Jean Gros and H-N RSV ... and best old was Rb 1964 (neg.) - though no DRC or Leroy incl.

[Gaudissabois Johan]

Friends,

i thank William for his comments but in my experience I thought that chez HUDELOT the R-St-V had the edge. Of course I never waited 20 years to compare so it may well be that in the long run RICHEBOURG is the winner. Concerning LEROY : I had both the RICHEB and the R-St-V from 88,89,90,91,92 and 93 and I fully agree that the R-St-V is the greater wine of the two. In any case : it was always my favorite. In the 92 vintage however I thought that chez Leroy THE BEAUMONTS was the best of the three. Feel free to disagree. By the way: I do drink villages and had splendid experiences with a number of Vosnes form Arnoux, G Noellat, HUDELOT-NOELLAT and Millot. And the CHAMBOLLLEs from HUDELOT-BAILLET (vieilles vignes), Arnoux, Roumier and Hudelot-Noellat

SINCERLY JOHAN

[Peter Chiu]

Thanks again ....Johan.

So I was half-right ( or half-wrong ) in that you seldom drink village wine ....NOW....and ...ALSO ....sometimes 1er cru is equal or better ( than a g-cru ).

****In any case : it was always my favorite. In the 92 vintage however I thought that chez Leroy THE BEAUMONTS was the best of the three. Feel free to disagree. ***

May I take a guess ( regarding your comments of above) : mostly like, because of the general character of the vintage year 1992 was speaking loud and clear.

FYI.... I always post here that my favorite LT is from vintage 1994. It never failed on me as she is always smiling for the whole event and keeping whispering : my dear Peter - how you are ? Unlike the 1191, 1993 or 1995, it sometimes closed down completely and became mute .....after popping the cork 30 to 35 minutes.

My suggestion of matching tastings is not my idea. I was just repeating the idea from Coates ( Cote d'Or - page 45 ) : The art of good living in that the village wine will create the impression of a more-grander for the Chambertin.

[Peter Chiu]

*****In my experience it depends - I agree that in the long(est) run the Rb - generally, not only at H-N - has more potential ... so when comparing Rb and RSV after 30+ years usually has more to give, but at 10, 15, 20 years the perfume, fragance and complexity of a RSV often wins. We had a comparative tasting some years ago where this was obvious, best (younger) wine was RSV Cathiard and Confuron, best middle aged were Rb Jean Gros and H-N RSV ... and best old was Rb 1964 (neg.) - though no DRC or Leroy incl.
Top*****

Thanks for the wonderful TNs.

Would that be nice if DRC also produced a Musigny ?

[David Kubiak]

I think in particular what Leroy and H-N have achieved in their RSV has greatly elevated the status of the wine. Then there’s the simple question of taste. I drank both H-N wines from the 90’s within a short space of time, and while both were spectacular the absolutely ethereal nose of the RSV made the whole table gasp.

[Gaudissabois Johan]

Friends,

in a hurry I almost forget to mention the one single VILLAGES that very nearly changed my life and got me hooked on Burgundy. In 84 I met Daniel Bocquenet and he offered me his NUITS-St-GEORGEs aux Saint Julien. A village from a lieux-dit next to the cemetery in Nuits that was on par with most premier crus and sometimes even better than that. Bocquent has now retired but his Nuits was always a superb wine. Hardly known to the public and the same thing goes for the vigneron himself. An undervalued winemaker that deserved much better. He ought to have been there together with the CHEVILLONS and the GOUGES. In the late ssebenties and eighties he even outbettered GOUGES. To Daniel : CHEERS!
SINCERELY JOHAN

[Tom Reddick]

Chez DRC ....Richebourg is Sophia and RStV is Gina.

Magnificently stated.

I was having a hard time answering the original thread because I think what you have said Peter is the much better approach to the question.

More broadly, I am confused how a discussion of the greatest wines of Vosne-Romanee includes H-N, but I gave up with them in the 2002 vintage, so maybe things have changed.

[David Kubiak]

[quote="Peter Chiu" post_id=3236522 time=<a href="tel:1617543031">1617543031</a> user_id=10524]
Chez DRC ....Richebourg is Sophia and RStV is Gina.

Magnificently stated.

I was having a hard time answering the original thread because I think what you have said Peter is the much better approach to the question.

More broadly, I am confused how a discussion of the greatest wines of Vosne-Romanee includes H-N, but I gave up with them in the 2002 vintage, so maybe things have changed.

Tom:
Can you elaborate on H-N? The last vintage I bought was 2001, although I haven’t tasted it yet. What made you give up by 2002? (I thought their 1995 RSV was a fantastic wine that for quite a while was overlooked and relatively cheap. Last bottle was now tired, but aromatics still very impressive, to me at least.

Thanks.
[/quote]

[Mich@el Ch@ng]

Chez DRC ....Richebourg is Sophia and RStV is Gina.

Magnificently stated.

I was having a hard time answering the original thread because I think what you have said Peter is the much better approach to the question.

More broadly, I am confused how a discussion of the greatest wines of Vosne-Romanee includes H-N, but I gave up with them in the 2002 vintage, so maybe things have changed.

I’d be confused if a discussion of the greatest wines of vosne didn’t include Hudelot Noellat.

[Tom Reddick]

Chez DRC ....Richebourg is Sophia and RStV is Gina.

Magnificently stated.

I was having a hard time answering the original thread because I think what you have said Peter is the much better approach to the question.

More broadly, I am confused how a discussion of the greatest wines of Vosne-Romanee includes H-N, but I gave up with them in the 2002 vintage, so maybe things have changed.

I’d be confused if a discussion of the greatest wines of vosne didn’t include Hudelot Noellat.

Good evening David and Michael,

To start off- apologies if my comment came off as snarky. I was just having a quick read during a quick lunch break and tonight in a more relaxed setting I can see where my comment might have seemed flippant.

For my part, all of my H-N experience (somewhat limited) comes from 1991-2002. It was a different time then- a time when DRC and Leroy were both very easy to obtain and where, aside from Leroy which was already starting to climb dramatically in price for the grand crus, the DRC RSV and Richebourg were similarly priced to the competition. And so it was easier to be a lot more picky and dismiss wines that in modern times- with a new pricing structure, limited availability and more Domaines bringing their A game- are relatively more appealing than they might have been 20 years ago.

I never found the H-N wines to be bad- far from it. If I had one general beef it was that the wines were sometimes a bit muddled- certainly at the middle and lower end- and lacking in detail as compared to the DRC and Leroy versions of similar age. JJ Confuron was another in that category but for a different reason- lovely detailed wine, but too much oak for my taste.

In any event, in an era when my tasting group was drinking DRC and Leroy- among others- on a regular basis, it was just hard to get too excited about H-N, Confuron or Arnoux. All 3 made good wines, but second tier in my book- and with the climate at the time it was easy to give them a miss after a handful of performances that just could not compare to DRC and Leroy.