For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

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Victor Hong
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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#251 Post by Victor Hong »

R_Gilbane wrote: March 8th, 2021, 9:54 am
Victor Hong wrote: March 8th, 2021, 8:09 am
Mark Mason wrote: March 8th, 2021, 7:46 am As a buyer and not a seller of wine, I dislike extending the auction window 10 minutes. This change will affect my use of WineBid.
If you include other market participants as equally legitimate stakeholders, such as the sellers and any more-motivated buyers, the change is quite balanced.

Yes, you have choices besides any one given auction or retail site.
All this talk of change, balance and choice is comical. Nothing has changed, there is no such thing as balance and choice is an illusion. Welcome to the new world order.
Was a constraint loosened, tightened, or added?
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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#252 Post by Rich Brown »

Victor Hong wrote: March 8th, 2021, 7:39 am
crickey wrote: March 8th, 2021, 6:55 am
Jayson Cohen wrote: March 7th, 2021, 9:13 pm

It’s even a bit worse than that as I play out the different scenarios in my head. Let’s say you are either an early bidder with a max price or a bidder at T-(3 minutes and 1 seconds) with a max price. Say your winning bid as of T-(3 minutes and 1 seconds) is $60, but your max bid is $66. Unless the rules are more nuanced than announced tonight, someone can bid $61 at 9:59:59, and the auction extends even though you are still the winning bid at $62. That’s not right. You should win the lot at $62 unless someone bids at least $67. Maybe they will account for that.

And in any case it’s still not clear what happens if there’s a bid in the 3 minute window. So is it snipe twice? Or does the auction keep extending until there’s a three minute steady state price with no further bidding? I.e., no sniping at all.
I agree with you that their summary of the rule could lead to the scenario you describe and that it shouldn't work that way; the extension period should only be triggered by new winning bids. Multiple bottle lots are probably a source of the problem: if at 6:57 different bottles have different winning bids, which often occurs, and someone bids enough to beat the lower bids, but not the higher bids, is the auction extended only for those lower bids (the contested bids) or for all the bottles? If the latter, you end up with the scenario you describe, where someone who had a winning bid at the 7:00 close could lose out in the extension period, and if the former, you could end up with the situation where the contested bottle are sold for more than the 7:00 uncontested winners, rather than driving out the lowest bids like would normally happen.
Bottom line: Whoever really wants a particular bottle is more likely now to buy it, all willingly and ably. That seems efficient and fair.
Anybody who really wants it as much but is unwilling to pay for it may be cheap or self-entitled.
Hmmm. An interesting perspective coming from 'the wine hunter'.

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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#253 Post by Victor Hong »

Rich Brown wrote: March 8th, 2021, 10:29 am
Victor Hong wrote: March 8th, 2021, 7:39 am
crickey wrote: March 8th, 2021, 6:55 am

I agree with you that their summary of the rule could lead to the scenario you describe and that it shouldn't work that way; the extension period should only be triggered by new winning bids. Multiple bottle lots are probably a source of the problem: if at 6:57 different bottles have different winning bids, which often occurs, and someone bids enough to beat the lower bids, but not the higher bids, is the auction extended only for those lower bids (the contested bids) or for all the bottles? If the latter, you end up with the scenario you describe, where someone who had a winning bid at the 7:00 close could lose out in the extension period, and if the former, you could end up with the situation where the contested bottle are sold for more than the 7:00 uncontested winners, rather than driving out the lowest bids like would normally happen.
Bottom line: Whoever really wants a particular bottle is more likely now to buy it, all willingly and ably. That seems efficient and fair.
Anybody who really wants it as much but is unwilling to pay for it may be cheap or self-entitled.
Hmmm. An interesting perspective coming from 'the wine hunter'.
If no seller and venue, no buyer.
WineHunter, or not.
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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#254 Post by Rich Brown »

Victor Hong wrote: March 8th, 2021, 10:35 am
Rich Brown wrote: March 8th, 2021, 10:29 am
Victor Hong wrote: March 8th, 2021, 7:39 am

Bottom line: Whoever really wants a particular bottle is more likely now to buy it, all willingly and ably. That seems efficient and fair.
Anybody who really wants it as much but is unwilling to pay for it may be cheap or self-entitled.
Hmmm. An interesting perspective coming from 'the wine hunter'.
If no seller and venue, no buyer.
WineHunter, or not.
But....there was plenty of sellers with the previous model, and from the looks of the auctions each week....that number was pointing up.

Huge bummer they're upsetting that balance to drive more revenue for WineBid/sellers

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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#255 Post by John S »

It is an interesting perspective here that many seem to think that winebid should effectively be the "buyers" auction house. Any auction house basically "works" for the sellers and markets based on maximizing sales prices. This is what attracts sellers the bread and butter of any auction house. Maybe the argument here is that winebid has a real opportunity to advertise the opposite of any other auction house and differentiate themselves. Someone way smarter than I can figure out that logo and market niche :)
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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#256 Post by Victor Hong »

Rich Brown wrote: March 8th, 2021, 10:48 am
Victor Hong wrote: March 8th, 2021, 10:35 am
Rich Brown wrote: March 8th, 2021, 10:29 am

Hmmm. An interesting perspective coming from 'the wine hunter'.
If no seller and venue, no buyer.
WineHunter, or not.
But....there was plenty of sellers with the previous model, and from the looks of the auctions each week....that number was pointing up.

Huge bummer they're upsetting that balance to drive more revenue for WineBid/sellers
For goods with normal supply and demand functions, higher intermediary fee revenues are associated with more buyers AND more sellers.
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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#257 Post by R_Gilbane »

Victor Hong wrote: March 8th, 2021, 9:57 am
R_Gilbane wrote: March 8th, 2021, 9:54 am
Victor Hong wrote: March 8th, 2021, 8:09 am

If you include other market participants as equally legitimate stakeholders, such as the sellers and any more-motivated buyers, the change is quite balanced.

Yes, you have choices besides any one given auction or retail site.
All this talk of change, balance and choice is comical. Nothing has changed, there is no such thing as balance and choice is an illusion. Welcome to the new world order.
Was a constraint loosened, tightened, or added?

Constraints only exist in your mind. Free yourself Victor!!!!
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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#258 Post by Rich Brown »

Victor Hong wrote: March 8th, 2021, 10:52 am
Rich Brown wrote: March 8th, 2021, 10:48 am
Victor Hong wrote: March 8th, 2021, 10:35 am
If no seller and venue, no buyer.
WineHunter, or not.
But....there was plenty of sellers with the previous model, and from the looks of the auctions each week....that number was pointing up.

Huge bummer they're upsetting that balance to drive more revenue for WineBid/sellers
For goods with normal supply and demand functions, higher intermediary fee revenues are associated with more buyers AND more sellers.
We're talking wine here buddy. As evident by a 6 page thread, this shift will certainly not lead to more buyers.

More importantly, it absolutley will not lead to happy buyers.

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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#259 Post by Victor Hong »

Rich Brown wrote: March 8th, 2021, 11:00 am
Victor Hong wrote: March 8th, 2021, 10:52 am
Rich Brown wrote: March 8th, 2021, 10:48 am

But....there was plenty of sellers with the previous model, and from the looks of the auctions each week....that number was pointing up.

Huge bummer they're upsetting that balance to drive more revenue for WineBid/sellers
For goods with normal supply and demand functions, higher intermediary fee revenues are associated with more buyers AND more sellers.
We're talking wine here buddy. As evident by a 6 page thread, this shift will certainly not lead to more buyers.

More importantly, it absolutley will not lead to happy buyers.
More time > more bids > more buyers. No?
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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#260 Post by c fu »

Rob Lynch wrote: March 8th, 2021, 4:34 am As an "early to bed, early to rise" type on the east coast: This Sucks.
How late am I going to have to stay up to find out if I've won a coveted bottle?

Make the process less enjoyable: I'll be less of a customer.
you'll stay up 10 minutes later
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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#261 Post by Rich Brown »

Victor Hong wrote: March 8th, 2021, 11:02 am
Rich Brown wrote: March 8th, 2021, 11:00 am
Victor Hong wrote: March 8th, 2021, 10:52 am
For goods with normal supply and demand functions, higher intermediary fee revenues are associated with more buyers AND more sellers.
We're talking wine here buddy. As evident by a 6 page thread, this shift will certainly not lead to more buyers.

More importantly, it absolutley will not lead to happy buyers.
More time > more bids > more buyers. No?
No.

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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#262 Post by JMReuter »

Victor Hong wrote: March 8th, 2021, 10:52 am For goods with normal supply and demand functions, higher intermediary fee revenues are associated with more buyers AND more sellers.
Yes, but this is mechanical since 100% of revenue is derived from matching buyers and sellers! The question is whether overtime bidding drives enough buyers away in the short or long term to impact WineBid's profitability. They could try running an experiment where overtime bidding is available every other week and see what happens...
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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#263 Post by Rob Lynch »

c fu wrote: March 8th, 2021, 11:05 am
Rob Lynch wrote: March 8th, 2021, 4:34 am As an "early to bed, early to rise" type on the east coast: This Sucks.
How late am I going to have to stay up to find out if I've won a coveted bottle?

Make the process less enjoyable: I'll be less of a customer.
you'll stay up 10 minutes later
Make a bet?

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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#264 Post by John S »

I'll pipe back out soon as I am neither a WineBid seller nor a buyer. I know a bit about auctions and markets so find this interesting.

This thread is excellent market research in that shows a lot of people (maybe just a few vocal people) are very opposed to this changing. This indicates to me that money has been left on the table (from winebid and sellers perspective) and the folks who have been (or perceived to be) the beneficiaries really want that to stay the same so they can continue to "benefit" from this. So if I were winebid this whole thread would actually point strongly to making said change.
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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#265 Post by Victor Hong »

John S wrote: March 8th, 2021, 11:20 am I'll pipe back out soon as I am neither a WineBid seller nor a buyer. I know a bit about auctions and markets so find this interesting.

This thread is excellent market research in that shows a lot of people (maybe just a few vocal people) are very opposed to this changing. This indicates to me that money has been left on the table (from winebid and sellers perspective) and the folks who have been (or perceived to be) the beneficiaries really want that to stay the same so they can continue to "benefit" from this. So if I were winebid this whole thread would actually point strongly to making said change.
Yes, gored oxen can be quite vocal.
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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#266 Post by Rich Brown »

John S wrote: March 8th, 2021, 11:20 am I'll pipe back out soon as I am neither a WineBid seller nor a buyer. I know a bit about auctions and markets so find this interesting.

This thread is excellent market research in that shows a lot of people (maybe just a few vocal people) are very opposed to this changing. This indicates to me that money has been left on the table (from winebid and sellers perspective) and the folks who have been (or perceived to be) the beneficiaries really want that to stay the same so they can continue to "benefit" from this. So if I were winebid this whole thread would actually point strongly to making said change.
.....and encourage long-term buyers to look elsewhere for wines at good prices??

Definitley an interesting perspective.

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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#267 Post by Victor Hong »

Rich Brown wrote: March 8th, 2021, 11:25 am
John S wrote: March 8th, 2021, 11:20 am I'll pipe back out soon as I am neither a WineBid seller nor a buyer. I know a bit about auctions and markets so find this interesting.

This thread is excellent market research in that shows a lot of people (maybe just a few vocal people) are very opposed to this changing. This indicates to me that money has been left on the table (from winebid and sellers perspective) and the folks who have been (or perceived to be) the beneficiaries really want that to stay the same so they can continue to "benefit" from this. So if I were winebid this whole thread would actually point strongly to making said change.
.....and encourage long-term buyers to look elsewhere for wines at good prices??

Definitley an interesting perspective.
John knows market principles. I am just a noodle slinger.
I believe that he fosters the co-existence of consumer surplus and seller surplus, where more transactions can yield net benefits to both sides, and perhaps any intermediaries.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/co ... urplus.asp
Last edited by Victor Hong on March 8th, 2021, 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#268 Post by c fu »

Rob Lynch wrote: March 8th, 2021, 11:11 am
c fu wrote: March 8th, 2021, 11:05 am
Rob Lynch wrote: March 8th, 2021, 4:34 am As an "early to bed, early to rise" type on the east coast: This Sucks.
How late am I going to have to stay up to find out if I've won a coveted bottle?

Make the process less enjoyable: I'll be less of a customer.
you'll stay up 10 minutes later
Make a bet?
Not sure what we're betting on. You asked "how late am i going to have to stay up to find out if i've won"

I said - you'll stay up 10 minutes later. cause the additional time ends after 10 minutes (supposedly)
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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#269 Post by David_K »

John S wrote: March 8th, 2021, 10:52 am It is an interesting perspective here that many seem to think that winebid should effectively be the "buyers" auction house. Any auction house basically "works" for the sellers and markets based on maximizing sales prices. This is what attracts sellers the bread and butter of any auction house. Maybe the argument here is that winebid has a real opportunity to advertise the opposite of any other auction house and differentiate themselves. Someone way smarter than I can figure out that logo and market niche :)
All true. I think the backlash is that it was presented as if they were doing buyers a favor, like we were all clamoring for this.
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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#270 Post by Victor Hong »

David_K wrote: March 8th, 2021, 11:38 am
John S wrote: March 8th, 2021, 10:52 am It is an interesting perspective here that many seem to think that winebid should effectively be the "buyers" auction house. Any auction house basically "works" for the sellers and markets based on maximizing sales prices. This is what attracts sellers the bread and butter of any auction house. Maybe the argument here is that winebid has a real opportunity to advertise the opposite of any other auction house and differentiate themselves. Someone way smarter than I can figure out that logo and market niche :)
All true. I think the backlash is that it was presented as if they were doing buyers a favor, like we were all clamoring for this.
Yes, they were.
search.php?keywords=snipe&fid%5B0%5D=1
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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#271 Post by Alan Rath »

John S wrote: March 8th, 2021, 10:52 am It is an interesting perspective here that many seem to think that winebid should effectively be the "buyers" auction house. Any auction house basically "works" for the sellers and markets based on maximizing sales prices. This is what attracts sellers the bread and butter of any auction house. Maybe the argument here is that winebid has a real opportunity to advertise the opposite of any other auction house and differentiate themselves. Someone way smarter than I can figure out that logo and market niche :)
When you look at the number of threads there have been on “where to sell my wine”, and the feedback on which has higher seller or buyer commissions, which gets more activity, which gets sellers the best return, it’s pretty clear that catering to sellers is key. Buyers don’t have to do anything but log on, peruse, and maybe bid. Sellers have a lot more at stake, and a lot more effort to complete the transaction. Sure, every auction site needs to attract buyers, but without sellers you don’t even get off the starting line.

As I’ve already said, I’m convinced through my own experience as both a seller and buyer that this change will only affect a small percentage of bottles. Anyone saying “that’s it, I’m out” is not acting rationally. The truth is, nothing has to change for anyone. You want to snipe at the last minute with your best low-ball offer, go for it. If someone else sees that and is willing to pay a buck, or a few bucks more, that’s good for everyone - except the sniper.
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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#272 Post by David_K »

Victor Hong wrote: March 8th, 2021, 11:43 am
David_K wrote: March 8th, 2021, 11:38 am
John S wrote: March 8th, 2021, 10:52 am It is an interesting perspective here that many seem to think that winebid should effectively be the "buyers" auction house. Any auction house basically "works" for the sellers and markets based on maximizing sales prices. This is what attracts sellers the bread and butter of any auction house. Maybe the argument here is that winebid has a real opportunity to advertise the opposite of any other auction house and differentiate themselves. Someone way smarter than I can figure out that logo and market niche :)
All true. I think the backlash is that it was presented as if they were doing buyers a favor, like we were all clamoring for this.
Yes, they were.
search.php?keywords=snipe&fid%5B0%5D=1
Having an auction keep going after sniping is the exact opposite of what a sniper wants.
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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#273 Post by Victor Hong »

David_K wrote: March 8th, 2021, 11:48 am
Victor Hong wrote: March 8th, 2021, 11:43 am
David_K wrote: March 8th, 2021, 11:38 am

All true. I think the backlash is that it was presented as if they were doing buyers a favor, like we were all clamoring for this.
Yes, they were.
search.php?keywords=snipe&fid%5B0%5D=1
Having an auction keep going after sniping is the exact opposite of what a sniper wants.
Essentially, the bidder wants his or her bid submitted, but not that of a more motivated bidder. What concept permits that?
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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#274 Post by David_K »

Victor Hong wrote: March 8th, 2021, 11:50 am
David_K wrote: March 8th, 2021, 11:48 am
Victor Hong wrote: March 8th, 2021, 11:43 am

Yes, they were.
search.php?keywords=snipe&fid%5B0%5D=1
Having an auction keep going after sniping is the exact opposite of what a sniper wants.
Essentially, the bidder wants his or her bid submitted, but not that of a more motivated bidder. What concept permits that?
If the "more motivated" bidder was truly more motivated, he or she would have submitted a higher bid.
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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#275 Post by Victor Hong »

David_K wrote: March 8th, 2021, 11:52 am
Victor Hong wrote: March 8th, 2021, 11:50 am
David_K wrote: March 8th, 2021, 11:48 am

Having an auction keep going after sniping is the exact opposite of what a sniper wants.
Essentially, the bidder wants his or her bid submitted, but not that of a more motivated bidder. What concept permits that?
If the "more motivated" bidder was truly more motivated, he or she would have submitted a higher bid.
You are OK with that higher bid?
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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#276 Post by Victor Hong »

Mark Mason wrote: March 8th, 2021, 7:46 am As a buyer and not a seller of wine, I dislike extending the auction window 10 minutes. This change will affect my use of WineBid.
Is that a warning, or a promise? [stirthepothal.gif]

If the latter, I will have less competition to buy stuff, and thereby pay less in the end. neener
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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#277 Post by Wes Barton »

c fu wrote: March 7th, 2021, 8:06 pm overtime bidding - snipe twice. Once to trigger it and another at the final 10th minute of the trigger'd time. Same ol same ol. Nothing's really changed. Facebook alcohol auction groups have been doing "popcorn" time for awhile.
Game Theory indicates some issues. If you know other people are looking to snipe, if you bite the bullet and trigger overtime, that means you'd have to then pay an extra bid increment to win it. Plus, you are broadcasting that you're there, since maybe 2/3 of trackers aren't. Snipers want to be quite and sneak in at the last moment and win at the lowest price possible. This feature makes it none of their individual best interests to be the one triggering overtime. They tend to be clever, or at least think they are. So, this feature is a strong disincentive to sniping, so we could see a huge percentage of the snipe-worthy wines not get sniped, and sell for a lot less than they would have. Even the minimum bid.

Game players will react to current game dynamics, not just the rules. They'll adapt to the best strategy-of-the-moment. The obvious, best reaction to the above scenario is to shift to early bidding. Those with a single-track sniper mentality might just lose interest in winebid.

Of course, some smaller segment of snipe-worthy wines will make the playoffs, as people are willing to pay a premium over market value for them. Then again, a lot of these are wines that get bid up during the week. Not sure if they'll find a higher hammer price, for the most part.
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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#278 Post by brigcampbell »

Wes Barton wrote: March 8th, 2021, 1:45 pm
c fu wrote: March 7th, 2021, 8:06 pm overtime bidding - snipe twice. Once to trigger it and another at the final 10th minute of the trigger'd time. Same ol same ol. Nothing's really changed. Facebook alcohol auction groups have been doing "popcorn" time for awhile.
Game Theory indicates some issues. If you know other people are looking to snipe, if you bite the bullet and trigger overtime, that means you'd have to then pay an extra bid increment to win it. Plus, you are broadcasting that you're there, since maybe 2/3 of trackers aren't. Snipers want to be quite and sneak in at the last moment and win at the lowest price possible. This feature makes it none of their individual best interests to be the one triggering overtime. They tend to be clever, or at least think they are. So, this feature is a strong disincentive to sniping, so we could see a huge percentage of the snipe-worthy wines not get sniped, and sell for a lot less than they would have. Even the minimum bid.

Game players will react to current game dynamics, not just the rules. They'll adapt to the best strategy-of-the-moment. The obvious, best reaction to the above scenario is to shift to early bidding. Those with a single-track sniper mentality might just lose interest in winebid.

Of course, some smaller segment of snipe-worthy wines will make the playoffs, as people are willing to pay a premium over market value for them. Then again, a lot of these are wines that get bid up during the week. Not sure if they'll find a higher hammer price, for the most part.
Fascinating stuff, really. The highlighted got me thinking.

Yes, it could be a disincentive for sniping by those that are snipers but wouldn't the lower bid incentivize more "regular" bidders because there is more value there?

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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#279 Post by Jayson Cohen »

Wes Barton wrote: March 8th, 2021, 1:45 pm
c fu wrote: March 7th, 2021, 8:06 pm overtime bidding - snipe twice. Once to trigger it and another at the final 10th minute of the trigger'd time. Same ol same ol. Nothing's really changed. Facebook alcohol auction groups have been doing "popcorn" time for awhile.
Game Theory indicates some issues. If you know other people are looking to snipe, if you bite the bullet and trigger overtime, that means you'd have to then pay an extra bid increment to win it. Plus, you are broadcasting that you're there, since maybe 2/3 of trackers aren't. Snipers want to be quite and sneak in at the last moment and win at the lowest price possible. This feature makes it none of their individual best interests to be the one triggering overtime. They tend to be clever, or at least think they are. So, this feature is a strong disincentive to sniping, so we could see a huge percentage of the snipe-worthy wines not get sniped, and sell for a lot less than they would have. Even the minimum bid.

Game players will react to current game dynamics, not just the rules. They'll adapt to the best strategy-of-the-moment. The obvious, best reaction to the above scenario is to shift to early bidding. Those with a single-track sniper mentality might just lose interest in winebid.

Of course, some smaller segment of snipe-worthy wines will make the playoffs, as people are willing to pay a premium over market value for them. Then again, a lot of these are wines that get bid up during the week. Not sure if they'll find a higher hammer price, for the most part.
Yes if you consider a single wine. Then, layer on multiple lots but overall constraint on overall spend for a week. For example, there have been (many) times where I bid early with Max Bid to try to secure first choice for a given week, and when the bid gets too high, often toward the end of the auction but not necessarily, I’ve turned to try to trying to win the second and possibly third choice bottles (that I would not have otherwise bid on) through sniping. I may just stop that.

It’s all fine. I don’t have to buy as much as Wine Bid as I used to. John suggested above that we have come to think of it as the buyer’s auction. Not at all. It’s just a particular option that offered particular pluses and minuses that I’ve grown accustomed to given I’ve been buying there for almost 22 years now, and the question for me is whether I’ll enjoy and participate as deeply under a new regime. I suspect I will stop trying to swipe and buy less. More wine at marginally lower prices for Victor Hong, Gd bless him.

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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#280 Post by Rodrigo B »

Wes Barton wrote: March 8th, 2021, 1:45 pm
c fu wrote: March 7th, 2021, 8:06 pm overtime bidding - snipe twice. Once to trigger it and another at the final 10th minute of the trigger'd time. Same ol same ol. Nothing's really changed. Facebook alcohol auction groups have been doing "popcorn" time for awhile.
Game Theory indicates some issues. If you know other people are looking to snipe, if you bite the bullet and trigger overtime, that means you'd have to then pay an extra bid increment to win it. Plus, you are broadcasting that you're there, since maybe 2/3 of trackers aren't. Snipers want to be quite and sneak in at the last moment and win at the lowest price possible. This feature makes it none of their individual best interests to be the one triggering overtime. They tend to be clever, or at least think they are. So, this feature is a strong disincentive to sniping, so we could see a huge percentage of the snipe-worthy wines not get sniped, and sell for a lot less than they would have. Even the minimum bid.

Game players will react to current game dynamics, not just the rules. They'll adapt to the best strategy-of-the-moment. The obvious, best reaction to the above scenario is to shift to early bidding. Those with a single-track sniper mentality might just lose interest in winebid.

Of course, some smaller segment of snipe-worthy wines will make the playoffs, as people are willing to pay a premium over market value for them. Then again, a lot of these are wines that get bid up during the week. Not sure if they'll find a higher hammer price, for the most part.
Maybe. I think snipers will adjust and we'll see more of them bidding just prior to 6.57 to avoid triggering the OT window. Worst case scenario, someone else triggers OT bidding and at that point they can bid accordingly, either trying to outbid or out snipe the other
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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#281 Post by Rich Brown »

Rodrigo B wrote: March 8th, 2021, 2:25 pm
Wes Barton wrote: March 8th, 2021, 1:45 pm
c fu wrote: March 7th, 2021, 8:06 pm overtime bidding - snipe twice. Once to trigger it and another at the final 10th minute of the trigger'd time. Same ol same ol. Nothing's really changed. Facebook alcohol auction groups have been doing "popcorn" time for awhile.
Game Theory indicates some issues. If you know other people are looking to snipe, if you bite the bullet and trigger overtime, that means you'd have to then pay an extra bid increment to win it. Plus, you are broadcasting that you're there, since maybe 2/3 of trackers aren't. Snipers want to be quite and sneak in at the last moment and win at the lowest price possible. This feature makes it none of their individual best interests to be the one triggering overtime. They tend to be clever, or at least think they are. So, this feature is a strong disincentive to sniping, so we could see a huge percentage of the snipe-worthy wines not get sniped, and sell for a lot less than they would have. Even the minimum bid.

Game players will react to current game dynamics, not just the rules. They'll adapt to the best strategy-of-the-moment. The obvious, best reaction to the above scenario is to shift to early bidding. Those with a single-track sniper mentality might just lose interest in winebid.

Of course, some smaller segment of snipe-worthy wines will make the playoffs, as people are willing to pay a premium over market value for them. Then again, a lot of these are wines that get bid up during the week. Not sure if they'll find a higher hammer price, for the most part.
Maybe. I think snipers will adjust and we'll see more of them bidding just prior to 6.57 to avoid triggering the OT window. Worst case scenario, someone else triggers OT bidding and at that point they can bid accordingly, either trying to outbid or out snipe the other
If they move forward with this (which it, unfortunately, looks like they are), that's exactly the move I was going to try. Not nearly as ideal....but making the best of a shitty situation.

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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#282 Post by Wes Barton »

Rodrigo B wrote: March 8th, 2021, 2:25 pm
Wes Barton wrote: March 8th, 2021, 1:45 pm
c fu wrote: March 7th, 2021, 8:06 pm overtime bidding - snipe twice. Once to trigger it and another at the final 10th minute of the trigger'd time. Same ol same ol. Nothing's really changed. Facebook alcohol auction groups have been doing "popcorn" time for awhile.
Game Theory indicates some issues. If you know other people are looking to snipe, if you bite the bullet and trigger overtime, that means you'd have to then pay an extra bid increment to win it. Plus, you are broadcasting that you're there, since maybe 2/3 of trackers aren't. Snipers want to be quite and sneak in at the last moment and win at the lowest price possible. This feature makes it none of their individual best interests to be the one triggering overtime. They tend to be clever, or at least think they are. So, this feature is a strong disincentive to sniping, so we could see a huge percentage of the snipe-worthy wines not get sniped, and sell for a lot less than they would have. Even the minimum bid.

Game players will react to current game dynamics, not just the rules. They'll adapt to the best strategy-of-the-moment. The obvious, best reaction to the above scenario is to shift to early bidding. Those with a single-track sniper mentality might just lose interest in winebid.

Of course, some smaller segment of snipe-worthy wines will make the playoffs, as people are willing to pay a premium over market value for them. Then again, a lot of these are wines that get bid up during the week. Not sure if they'll find a higher hammer price, for the most part.
Maybe. I think snipers will adjust and we'll see more of them bidding just prior to 6.57 to avoid triggering the OT window. Worst case scenario, someone else triggers OT bidding and at that point they can bid accordingly, either trying to outbid or out snipe the other
Yes, that's a smart play some regular users will try. That's a subset of the current snipers. That would prevent a segment of wines from selling below the status quo. But, the wines people do that with that then get triggered to overtime by someone else would already have been tapped by those people in the last 3 minutes.

Making the winning strategies more complex and quirky can most alienate new, newer and less frequent users. So, even if this doesn't turn out to be a big deal for the people on this thread, familiar with winebid and the coming changes, and able to think through and strategize, others may have some big "WAIT....WHAT???? WTAF!" moments. Customer attraction and customer retention are both crucial to running a healthy business.
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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#283 Post by MBerto »

A whole lot of digital ink spilled over something where no one has all the details. A few random comments:

1. People have absolutely been asking for this feature. Find any thread on winebid "sniping" or "poaching" (I detest both terms) and you'll see people asking for auction to be extended. Also this thread viewtopic.php?p=3015232#p3015232 is extremely interesting in the number of people commenting how they like to wait until the last second. Nothing wrong with that of course.

2. We don't know how this will actually work. There seems to be the assumption that the auction will simply extend 10 minutes, but based on the winebid site this appears to be assuming facts not in evidence. There's another auction site I've been following recently - Carsandbids.com. It's an auto auction website, not particularly complicated. They have a policy that any bid placed in the final minute, extends the auction another minute. It works extremely well. Now, people may prioritize being in front of their computer when bidding on a $30,000 vehicle as opposed to a $50 bottle of wine, but if it's that important to you, find the time. If they implemented a similar system here, I fail to see the issue.

3. The entire concept of "sniping" is weird to me. You didn't get "sniped" or "poached", you lost the auction. The compliant seems to stem from some sort of belief that if you're wining in the final 10 minutes, you deserve to win the wine at that price. This is obviously nonsense, and from day one winebid has had a max bid feature which can totally and completely prevent you from losing an auction at a price you would have paid, but people still complain about it.

4. What exactly is your complaint about the new feature (again, understanding we don't have the details)? If there's no bid in the final 3 minutes, the auction ends as scheduled. No change. If there's a bid in the final 3 minutes, the auction is extended. If you're one that does not follow the end of auctions (as I am), again, you would lose, but that's no different than before. If you're one that likes to withhold bids until the very end, well you may now not be able to win as much at the last second, or have to pay more for the same wine. Bummer. I don't really feel that bad for you though, just as I don't feel that bad for parties who previously lost wine to you. In both cases parties are not doing what is clearly best strategy to acquire the wines you want at the prices you want - bid your max price and be done with it.
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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#284 Post by Victor Hong »

MBerto wrote: March 8th, 2021, 3:44 pm A whole lot of digital ink spilled over something where no one has all the details. A few random comments:

1. People have absolutely been asking for this feature. Find any thread on winebid "sniping" or "poaching" (I detest both terms) and you'll see people asking for auction to be extended. Also this thread viewtopic.php?p=3015232#p3015232 is extremely interesting in the number of people commenting how they like to wait until the last second. Nothing wrong with that of course.

2. We don't know how this will actually work. There seems to be the assumption that the auction will simply extend 10 minutes, but based on the winebid site this appears to be assuming facts not in evidence. There's another auction site I've been following recently - Carsandbids.com. It's an auto auction website, not particularly complicated. They have a policy that any bid placed in the final minute, extends the auction another minute. It works extremely well. Now, people may prioritize being in front of their computer when bidding on a $30,000 vehicle as opposed to a $50 bottle of wine, but if it's that important to you, find the time. If they implemented a similar system here, I fail to see the issue.

3. The entire concept of "sniping" is weird to me. You didn't get "sniped" or "poached", you lost the auction. The compliant seems to stem from some sort of belief that if you're wining in the final 10 minutes, you deserve to win the wine at that price. This is obviously nonsense, and from day one winebid has had a max bid feature which can totally and completely prevent you from losing an auction at a price you would have paid, but people still complain about it.

4. What exactly is your complaint about the new feature (again, understanding we don't have the details)? If there's no bid in the final 3 minutes, the auction ends as scheduled. No change. If there's a bid in the final 3 minutes, the auction is extended. If you're one that does not follow the end of auctions (as I am), again, you would lose, but that's no different than before. If you're one that likes to withhold bids until the very end, well you may now not be able to win as much at the last second, or have to pay more for the same wine. Bummer. I don't really feel that bad for you though, just as I don't feel that bad for parties who previously lost wine to you. In both cases parties are not doing what is clearly best strategy to acquire the wines you want at the prices you want - bid your max price and be done with it.
Agreed. Sore, cheap losers who complain about winning what they wish.
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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#285 Post by RMann »

    Hi all, thanks for the very spirited and lively discussion.

    In particular- Brian Grafstrom, Alan Rath, Rodrigo, JMReuter, Victor Hong, Tom R W, Jay Miller, Michael Martin, Robert A Jr, David K, Jayson, Crickey, Keith Levenberg, Ken Brown, Wes Barton and the above comments by MBerto- you all made incredibly astute observations and thoughtful comments which are much appreciated- the positive ones, and the constructive criticism as well.

    A couple of you noted that I should have provided more clarity up front on this announcement, and how the rules will work. So again, I will give the Berserkers early information on the final details, and I will even give you some bidding and sniping strategy thoughts.

    As now announced: only items that receive a bid in the final 3 minutes (6:57pm-7pm PST) will go into Overtime Bidding. All other items will retire at 7pm. (So instead of T-10, it’s only T-3).

    New info for everyone:
    * There are two phases of Overtime Bidding, Initial and Extended Overtime.
    * Initial Overtime begins at 7:00pm PT -- a 3-minute bidding window for only overtime lots. If there are no new bids after three minutes of Initial Overtime, bidding closes at 7:03pm PT. Only people who have already bid on or are tracking a lot will be able to see or participate on that lot Overtime.
    * For any lots that receive additional bids in “Initial Overtime,” there will be Extended Overtime. Extended Overtime begins at 7:03pm PT -- which consists of 30-second increments that restart every time a new bid is placed. This period ends when no new bid is received after 30 seconds or at 7:10pm PT, whichever is sooner.


    So, here’s some thoughts for all of you, and by the way, this is what I tell my personal friends who ask me the best way to win the wines they want on WineBid:

    Statistically, it is better to place your max bid early in the week. I know some of you don’t believe me, but this is a statistical fact based on the behaviors and outcomes we see in the marketplace.
    * Max bids does not mean an immediate bid at that price, which many people are confused by- it only means the max you are willing to go to.
    * Max bids are not revealed, so there is no public “information value” of max bidding.
    * As others point out, there is a signaling value to bidding early in the week, which often means bidders/snipers move on to other targets.
    * There is also a signaling value if you place a max bid a few $ more than the reserve-- if people try to outbid you, whether early or even near the end, a couple of auto-bids will signal your intent and they will often move to another target.
    * Finally, as others noted, a max bid beats a manual bid at the same value. So, if a wine is at $70 and your max bid is $73 and someone else bids $73, your $73 wins.
    * Max bids will roll over into overtime and take priority in overtime as well.
    * But very importantly- do not place falsely high max bids, because a max bid is non-retractable- and if two people place false max bids, someone is going to end up paying a lot for that.

    For those people who still want to bid last minute:
    * The recommendation is that you adjust your bidding early by 5 minutes- place your bids at 6:51-6:56pm PT and see if you “get lucky” and win your wine with no competition. If no one bids against you, you will still know at 7pm that you won that lot. We predict that most lots will continue to finalize at 7pm.
    * Of very important note- only people who have bid on or are tracking a wine will be able to see it and bid on it, or increase max bids, in Overtime Bidding. So- if your lot does go into overtime, you will not be up against “the world”- only the people who are already bidding or tracking that lot.
    * The three-minute Initial Overtime is to give people the time to log back in at the end, in case they really want to win a specific lot. We predict that most lots that go into overtime will finalize in the Initial Overtime.
    * The 30-second increments are to give final bidders and snipers time to decide how much further they want to go. We predict that most lots that go into Extended Overtime will not go more than 2 minutes (4-5 more increments). It’s possible (and I wouldn’t put it past this crowd, some of you know who you are!) that people will continue to place $1 increments every 29 seconds in Extended Overtime, up until 7:10pm, just to have fun with it.

    We appreciate all the feedback from the Berserkers. We are going to continue to listen to all our customers, to improve and innovate the online wine auction- buying, selling, and sharing experience- so that more people can buy or sell wines at the price they want.

    We sincerely wish you all happy winning, tasting and sharing.
    Last edited by RMann on March 8th, 2021, 4:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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    Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

    #286 Post by Rich Brown »

    Victor Hong wrote: March 8th, 2021, 4:16 pm
    MBerto wrote: March 8th, 2021, 3:44 pm A whole lot of digital ink spilled over something where no one has all the details. A few random comments:

    1. People have absolutely been asking for this feature. Find any thread on winebid "sniping" or "poaching" (I detest both terms) and you'll see people asking for auction to be extended. Also this thread viewtopic.php?p=3015232#p3015232 is extremely interesting in the number of people commenting how they like to wait until the last second. Nothing wrong with that of course.

    2. We don't know how this will actually work. There seems to be the assumption that the auction will simply extend 10 minutes, but based on the winebid site this appears to be assuming facts not in evidence. There's another auction site I've been following recently - Carsandbids.com. It's an auto auction website, not particularly complicated. They have a policy that any bid placed in the final minute, extends the auction another minute. It works extremely well. Now, people may prioritize being in front of their computer when bidding on a $30,000 vehicle as opposed to a $50 bottle of wine, but if it's that important to you, find the time. If they implemented a similar system here, I fail to see the issue.

    3. The entire concept of "sniping" is weird to me. You didn't get "sniped" or "poached", you lost the auction. The compliant seems to stem from some sort of belief that if you're wining in the final 10 minutes, you deserve to win the wine at that price. This is obviously nonsense, and from day one winebid has had a max bid feature which can totally and completely prevent you from losing an auction at a price you would have paid, but people still complain about it.

    4. What exactly is your complaint about the new feature (again, understanding we don't have the details)? If there's no bid in the final 3 minutes, the auction ends as scheduled. No change. If there's a bid in the final 3 minutes, the auction is extended. If you're one that does not follow the end of auctions (as I am), again, you would lose, but that's no different than before. If you're one that likes to withhold bids until the very end, well you may now not be able to win as much at the last second, or have to pay more for the same wine. Bummer. I don't really feel that bad for you though, just as I don't feel that bad for parties who previously lost wine to you. In both cases parties are not doing what is clearly best strategy to acquire the wines you want at the prices you want - bid your max price and be done with it.
    Agreed. Sore, cheap losers who complain about winning what they wish.
    Really Victor?? You've got to be kidding me man.

    And Matt, I know its 6 pages deep now but judging by your comment, you have not read all of it. I'll go point by point for ya:

    1. There's 6 pages of peeps complaining about how this new feature is not ideal (well....there's Victor....but we all know he doesn't count ;) ). By that alone, I think its safe to say that we (buyers) did not ask for it.

    2. This model was referenced multiple times as an alternate option in the thread already.

    3. Agreed!

    4. You nailed it. We're going to end up paying more for wines now. And since this is a wine board, and it was presented as something that buyers 'asked for'.....we're discussing/complaining (I'm complaining at least). You don't have to feel bad for us....but it doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about it here. If you want to read the whole thread....there's been, IMHO, some great points made on both sides (again....except for Victor's).

    Cheers!

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    Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

    #287 Post by Ken Strauss »

    RMann wrote: March 8th, 2021, 4:35 pm
      Hi all, thanks for the very spirited and lively discussion.

      In particular- Brian Grafstrom, Alan Rath, Rodrigo, JMReuter, Victor Hong, Tom R W, Jay Miller, Michael Martin, Robert A Jr, David K, Jayson, Crickey, Keith Levenberg, Ken Brown, Wes Barton and the above comments by MBerto- you all made incredibly astute observations and thoughtful comments which are much appreciated- the positive ones, and the constructive criticism as well.

      A couple of you noted that I should have provided more clarity up front on this announcement, and how the rules will work. So again, I will give the Berserkers early information on the final details, and I will even give you some bidding and sniping strategy thoughts.

      As now announced: only items that receive a bid in the final 3 minutes (6:57pm-7pm PST) will go into Overtime Bidding. All other items will retire at 7pm. (So instead of T-10, it’s only T-3).

      New info for everyone:
      * There are two phases of Overtime Bidding, Initial and Extended Overtime.
      * Initial Overtime begins at 7:00pm PT -- a 3-minute bidding window for only overtime lots. If there are no new bids after three minutes of Initial Overtime, bidding closes at 7:03pm PT. Only people who have already bid on or are tracking a lot will be able to see or participate on that lot Overtime.
      * For any lots that receive additional bids in “Initial Overtime,” there will be Extended Overtime. Extended Overtime begins at 7:03pm PT -- which consists of 30-second increments that restart every time a new bid is placed. This period ends when no new bid is received after 30 seconds or at 7:10pm PT, whichever is sooner.


      So, here’s some thoughts for all of you, and by the way, this is what I tell my personal friends who ask me the best way to win the wines they want on WineBid:

      Statistically, it is better to place your max bid early in the week. I know some of you don’t believe me, but this is a statistical fact based on the behaviors and outcomes we see in the marketplace.
      * Max bids does not mean an immediate bid at that price, which many people are confused by- it only means the max you are willing to go to.
      * Max bids are not revealed, so there is no public “information value” of max bidding.
      * As others point out, there is a signaling value to bidding early in the week, which often means bidders/snipers move on to other targets.
      * There is also a signaling value if you place a max bid a few $ more than the reserve-- if people try to outbid you, whether early or even near the end, a couple of auto-bids will signal your intent and they will often move to another target.
      * Finally, as others noted, a max bid beats a manual bid at the same value. So, if a wine is at $70 and your max bid is $73 and someone else bids $73, your $73 wins.
      * Max bids will roll over into overtime and take priority in overtime as well.
      * But very importantly- do not place falsely high max bids, because a max bid is non-retractable- and if two people place false max bids, someone is going to end up paying a lot for that.

      For those people who still want to bid last minute:
      * The recommendation is that you adjust your bidding early by 5 minutes- place your bids at 6:51-6:56pm PT and see if you “get lucky” and win your wine with no competition. If no one bids against you, you will still know at 7pm that you won that lot. We predict that most lots will continue to finalize at 7pm.
      * Of very important note- only people who have bid on or are tracking a wine will be able to see it and bid on it, or increase max bids, in Overtime Bidding. So- if your lot does go into overtime, you will not be up against “the world”- only the people who are already bidding or tracking that lot.
      * The three-minute Initial Overtime is to give people the time to log back in at the end, in case they really want to win a specific lot. We predict that most lots that go into overtime will finalize in the Initial Overtime.
      * The 30-second increments are to give final bidders and snipers time to decide how much further they want to go. We predict that most lots that go into Extended Overtime will not go more than 2 minutes (4-5 more increments). It’s possible (and I wouldn’t put it past this crowd, some of you know who you are!) that people will continue to place $1 increments every 29 seconds in Extended Overtime, up until 7:10pm, just to have fun with it.

      We appreciate all the feedback from the Berserkers. We are going to continue to listen to all our customers, to improve and innovate the online wine auction- buying, selling, and sharing experience- so that more people can buy or sell wines at the price they want.

      We sincerely wish you all happy winning, tasting and sharing.
      First of all I think this is a terrific move!
      That said as a bidder and non sniper 3 minutes is not enough time. I suggest a minimum of an extended auction of 10 minutes.
      If I am notified that I am outbid I need some time to first discover I was outbid then logon and rebid.
      "Explaining is not supporting."

      "Independence is a state of mind"

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      Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

      #288 Post by Rich Brown »

      RMann wrote: March 8th, 2021, 4:35 pm
        Hi all, thanks for the very spirited and lively discussion.

        In particular- Brian Grafstrom, Alan Rath, Rodrigo, JMReuter, Victor Hong, Tom R W, Jay Miller, Michael Martin, Robert A Jr, David K, Jayson, Crickey, Keith Levenberg, Ken Brown, Wes Barton and the above comments by MBerto- you all made incredibly astute observations and thoughtful comments which are much appreciated- the positive ones, and the constructive criticism as well.

        A couple of you noted that I should have provided more clarity up front on this announcement, and how the rules will work. So again, I will give the Berserkers early information on the final details, and I will even give you some bidding and sniping strategy thoughts.

        As now announced: only items that receive a bid in the final 3 minutes (6:57pm-7pm PST) will go into Overtime Bidding. All other items will retire at 7pm. (So instead of T-10, it’s only T-3).

        New info for everyone:
        * There are two phases of Overtime Bidding, Initial and Extended Overtime.
        * Initial Overtime begins at 7:00pm PT -- a 3-minute bidding window for only overtime lots. If there are no new bids after three minutes of Initial Overtime, bidding closes at 7:03pm PT. Only people who have already bid on or are tracking a lot will be able to see or participate on that lot Overtime.
        * For any lots that receive additional bids in “Initial Overtime,” there will be Extended Overtime. Extended Overtime begins at 7:03pm PT -- which consists of 30-second increments that restart every time a new bid is placed. This period ends when no new bid is received after 30 seconds or at 7:10pm PT, whichever is sooner.


        So, here’s some thoughts for all of you, and by the way, this is what I tell my personal friends who ask me the best way to win the wines they want on WineBid:

        Statistically, it is better to place your max bid early in the week. I know some of you don’t believe me, but this is a statistical fact based on the behaviors and outcomes we see in the marketplace.
        * Max bids does not mean an immediate bid at that price, which many people are confused by- it only means the max you are willing to go to.
        * Max bids are not revealed, so there is no public “information value” of max bidding.
        * As others point out, there is a signaling value to bidding early in the week, which often means bidders/snipers move on to other targets.
        * There is also a signaling value if you place a max bid a few $ more than the reserve-- if people try to outbid you, whether early or even near the end, a couple of auto-bids will signal your intent and they will often move to another target.
        * Finally, as others noted, a max bid beats a manual bid at the same value. So, if a wine is at $70 and your max bid is $73 and someone else bids $73, your $73 wins.
        * Max bids will roll over into overtime and take priority in overtime as well.
        * But very importantly- do not place falsely high max bids, because a max bid is non-retractable- and if two people place false max bids, someone is going to end up paying a lot for that.

        For those people who still want to bid last minute:
        * The recommendation is that you adjust your bidding early by 5 minutes- place your bids at 6:51-6:56pm PT and see if you “get lucky” and win your wine with no competition. If no one bids against you, you will still know at 7pm that you won that lot. We predict that most lots will continue to finalize at 7pm.
        * Of very important note- only people who have bid on or are tracking a wine will be able to see it and bid on it, or increase max bids, in Overtime Bidding. So- if your lot does go into overtime, you will not be up against “the world”- only the people who are already bidding or tracking that lot.
        * The three-minute Initial Overtime is to give people the time to log back in at the end, in case they really want to win a specific lot. We predict that most lots that go into overtime will finalize in the Initial Overtime.
        * The 30-second increments are to give final bidders and snipers time to decide how much further they want to go. We predict that most lots that go into Extended Overtime will not go more than 2 minutes (4-5 more increments). It’s possible (and I wouldn’t put it past this crowd, some of you know who you are!) that people will continue to place $1 increments every 29 seconds in Extended Overtime, up until 7:10pm, just to have fun with it.

        We appreciate all the feedback from the Berserkers. We are going to continue to listen to all our customers, to improve and innovate the online wine auction- buying, selling, and sharing experience- so that more people can buy or sell wines at the price they want.

        We sincerely wish you all happy winning, tasting and sharing.
        Appreciate the details Russ.....but it looks like you forgot to include my name in your 'Thank You' call out??? ;)

        Like I said from the very start, I've been a big/vocal Winebid supporter for a long time now and have turned many people onto your platform....which is probably why I've been the most vocal on the subject. I very much enjoyed the previous model and thought it was by far the most interesting, fair, and 'fun' online wine auction out there (and I've tried most). This new system changes that, and I feel that from a buyers perspective, for the worse. Am I swearing off Winebid and never using it again? Nope. I'll still give the new model a shot.....but am pretty confident that its going to lead to higher prices and substantially favor sellers/Winebid (which I hope you can admit is accurate), which may, unfortunately, lead to me being less active.

        Regardless, I do appreciate your involvement here on this board and completely get this decision from a business perspective.....but am certainly very disappointed that it's happening.

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        Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

        #289 Post by Jayson Cohen »

        As predicted, the Max Bid winning bidder at 9:57- (non-sniper) is screwed by a non-winning bid (lower than Max Bid) in the last three minutes as in my example above. That non-winning bid triggers the Initial Overtime even if that Max Bid is still ahead at 10. That does not seem fair. (I’ve put in early bids many times with a Max Bid that someone unsuccessfully tried to swipe at the last second under current rules.)

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        Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

        #290 Post by Rodrigo B »

        It’s going to be interesting to see how bidding behaviour changes sure. In considering things more thoroughly and with more information, here’s a few notes of what we may perhaps see:

        Theoretically, notwithstanding people’s max bid, lots under $85 could became more expensive by at least $14 if the bidding goes to OT.

        We can also expect to see a lot more bidders bidding their max bid earlier as taking things to OT might become more expensive.

        As I noted before, there are going to be more people bidding prior to 6.57pm hoping to secure the uncontested highest bid by auction close at 7pm.

        If OT is triggered, up until 7.03pm, we could see a decrease in bidding in that short time span as there will be less incentive to drive up price during that time period.

        Rather, rational snipers will bid the minimum increment until either one bidder snipes the other at just before 7.10pm or one is outbid. In the scenario where bidding is extended until 7.10pm, lots will be at least $14 more for lots under $85 and $140 more for lots over $100 since a new minimum bid is required to extend it an additional 30 seconds, each extension raises strike price by at least the minimum bid. This means that to take a lot all the way to the final seconds of OT, there will need to be at least 14 new minimum bids increments on a lot. This also means that we can expect lots over $100 not go into OT as often as those under $100 since the bidding increments are much more.

        Once OT is triggered, assuming rational bidders, there should be little incentive to bid the max value in OT until the very end, since you’re either going to be ok with increasing your bid by $14 or you’ll bow out. Then at 7.09.30 we could see people that are willing to bear the additional $14 minimum price increase snipe the lot at the very last second. Though, there is now at least a $14 penalty for doing so.

        All of this combined is likely is going to create an incentive for bidders to try to outbid each other prior to the OT triggering window since going into OT carries an additional cost.

        Of course, OT will also create more opportunities for people to succumb to sunk cost fallacy and bid incrementally higher to win lots during OT.
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        Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

        #291 Post by crickey »

        Russ, can you clarify if by "additional bid" you mean any bid or just a higher bid? It's one thing to permit someone who was outbid at the last minute a chance to re-bid; it seems to be another to permit someone who did not submit a winning bid by the end of the auction to submit higher bids. Along the same lines, if the former is the case, you will need to modify your notification software so that it doesn't just notify someone if they have been outbid, but also anyone, even the current high bidder, that the lot period has been extended.
        Chri$ Ri¢k€y

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        Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

        #292 Post by crickey »

        Rodrigo B wrote: March 8th, 2021, 5:42 pm
        Rather, rational snipers will bid the minimum increment until either one bidder snipes the other at just before 7.10pm or one is outbid. In the scenario where bidding is extended until 7.10pm, lots will be at least $14 more for lots under $85 and $140 more for lots over $100 since a new minimum bid is required to extend it an additional 30 seconds, each extension raises strike price by at least the minimum bid. This means that to take a lot all the way to the final seconds of OT, there will need to be at least 14 new minimum bids increments on a lot. This also means that we can expect lots over $100 not go into OT as often as those under $100 since the bidding increments are much more.

        Once OT is triggered, assuming rational bidders, there should be little incentive to bid the max value in OT until the very end, since you’re either going to be ok with increasing your bid by $14 or you’ll bow out. Then at 7.09.30 we could see people that are willing to bear the additional $14 minimum price increase snipe the lot at the very last second. Though, there is now at least a $14 penalty for doing so.
        I had hit upon the same strategy before I read your post, so it's good that rational people are thinking rationally about it.
        Chri$ Ri¢k€y

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        Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

        #293 Post by Ken Strauss »

        Rich Brown wrote: March 8th, 2021, 4:58 pm
        RMann wrote: March 8th, 2021, 4:35 pm
          Hi all, thanks for the very spirited and lively discussion.

          In particular- Brian Grafstrom, Alan Rath, Rodrigo, JMReuter, Victor Hong, Tom R W, Jay Miller, Michael Martin, Robert A Jr, David K, Jayson, Crickey, Keith Levenberg, Ken Brown, Wes Barton and the above comments by MBerto- you all made incredibly astute observations and thoughtful comments which are much appreciated- the positive ones, and the constructive criticism as well.

          A couple of you noted that I should have provided more clarity up front on this announcement, and how the rules will work. So again, I will give the Berserkers early information on the final details, and I will even give you some bidding and sniping strategy thoughts.

          As now announced: only items that receive a bid in the final 3 minutes (6:57pm-7pm PST) will go into Overtime Bidding. All other items will retire at 7pm. (So instead of T-10, it’s only T-3).

          New info for everyone:
          * There are two phases of Overtime Bidding, Initial and Extended Overtime.
          * Initial Overtime begins at 7:00pm PT -- a 3-minute bidding window for only overtime lots. If there are no new bids after three minutes of Initial Overtime, bidding closes at 7:03pm PT. Only people who have already bid on or are tracking a lot will be able to see or participate on that lot Overtime.
          * For any lots that receive additional bids in “Initial Overtime,” there will be Extended Overtime. Extended Overtime begins at 7:03pm PT -- which consists of 30-second increments that restart every time a new bid is placed. This period ends when no new bid is received after 30 seconds or at 7:10pm PT, whichever is sooner.


          So, here’s some thoughts for all of you, and by the way, this is what I tell my personal friends who ask me the best way to win the wines they want on WineBid:

          Statistically, it is better to place your max bid early in the week. I know some of you don’t believe me, but this is a statistical fact based on the behaviors and outcomes we see in the marketplace.
          * Max bids does not mean an immediate bid at that price, which many people are confused by- it only means the max you are willing to go to.
          * Max bids are not revealed, so there is no public “information value” of max bidding.
          * As others point out, there is a signaling value to bidding early in the week, which often means bidders/snipers move on to other targets.
          * There is also a signaling value if you place a max bid a few $ more than the reserve-- if people try to outbid you, whether early or even near the end, a couple of auto-bids will signal your intent and they will often move to another target.
          * Finally, as others noted, a max bid beats a manual bid at the same value. So, if a wine is at $70 and your max bid is $73 and someone else bids $73, your $73 wins.
          * Max bids will roll over into overtime and take priority in overtime as well.
          * But very importantly- do not place falsely high max bids, because a max bid is non-retractable- and if two people place false max bids, someone is going to end up paying a lot for that.

          For those people who still want to bid last minute:
          * The recommendation is that you adjust your bidding early by 5 minutes- place your bids at 6:51-6:56pm PT and see if you “get lucky” and win your wine with no competition. If no one bids against you, you will still know at 7pm that you won that lot. We predict that most lots will continue to finalize at 7pm.
          * Of very important note- only people who have bid on or are tracking a wine will be able to see it and bid on it, or increase max bids, in Overtime Bidding. So- if your lot does go into overtime, you will not be up against “the world”- only the people who are already bidding or tracking that lot.
          * The three-minute Initial Overtime is to give people the time to log back in at the end, in case they really want to win a specific lot. We predict that most lots that go into overtime will finalize in the Initial Overtime.
          * The 30-second increments are to give final bidders and snipers time to decide how much further they want to go. We predict that most lots that go into Extended Overtime will not go more than 2 minutes (4-5 more increments). It’s possible (and I wouldn’t put it past this crowd, some of you know who you are!) that people will continue to place $1 increments every 29 seconds in Extended Overtime, up until 7:10pm, just to have fun with it.

          We appreciate all the feedback from the Berserkers. We are going to continue to listen to all our customers, to improve and innovate the online wine auction- buying, selling, and sharing experience- so that more people can buy or sell wines at the price they want.

          We sincerely wish you all happy winning, tasting and sharing.
          Appreciate the details Russ.....but it looks like you forgot to include my name in your 'Thank You' call out??? ;)

          Like I said from the very start, I've been a big/vocal Winebid supporter for a long time now and have turned many people onto your platform....which is probably why I've been the most vocal on the subject. I very much enjoyed the previous model and thought it was by far the most interesting, fair, and 'fun' online wine auction out there (and I've tried most). This new system changes that, and I feel that from a buyers perspective, for the worse. Am I swearing off Winebid and never using it again? Nope. I'll still give the new model a shot.....but am pretty confident that its going to lead to higher prices and substantially favor sellers/Winebid (which I hope you can admit is accurate), which may, unfortunately, lead to me being less active.

          Regardless, I do appreciate your involvement here on this board and completely get this decision from a business perspective.....but am certainly very disappointed that it's happening.
          Your post clearly labels you as a sniper!
          I truly hope you leave winebid.
          Thanks
          "Explaining is not supporting."

          "Independence is a state of mind"

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          Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

          #294 Post by Marc Frontario »

          RMann wrote: March 5th, 2021, 4:04 pm Hi all! As you all are among our most active and loyal customers, as well as acting as our unofficial QA team, I wanted to give the Berserkers the very first notice of a feature we will be launching in the next few weeks- Overtime Bidding!

          You asked for it, you got it. The opportunity to keep duking it out over hot lots in contention for up to 10 additional minutes. A sneak preview of the feature will be posted this Sunday after auction close, but we won't be launching for a few more weeks. We'll give you the heads up two weeks before actual go-live and will of course appreciate your feedback (and possibly your patience) as we try out this great new auction feature.

          Absolutely 100%>>NOT A FAN OF THIS...any other wine auctions u guys can recommend?
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          Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

          #295 Post by Rich Brown »

          Ken Strauss wrote: March 8th, 2021, 8:28 pm
          Rich Brown wrote: March 8th, 2021, 4:58 pm
          RMann wrote: March 8th, 2021, 4:35 pm
            Hi all, thanks for the very spirited and lively discussion.

            In particular- Brian Grafstrom, Alan Rath, Rodrigo, JMReuter, Victor Hong, Tom R W, Jay Miller, Michael Martin, Robert A Jr, David K, Jayson, Crickey, Keith Levenberg, Ken Brown, Wes Barton and the above comments by MBerto- you all made incredibly astute observations and thoughtful comments which are much appreciated- the positive ones, and the constructive criticism as well.

            A couple of you noted that I should have provided more clarity up front on this announcement, and how the rules will work. So again, I will give the Berserkers early information on the final details, and I will even give you some bidding and sniping strategy thoughts.

            As now announced: only items that receive a bid in the final 3 minutes (6:57pm-7pm PST) will go into Overtime Bidding. All other items will retire at 7pm. (So instead of T-10, it’s only T-3).

            New info for everyone:
            * There are two phases of Overtime Bidding, Initial and Extended Overtime.
            * Initial Overtime begins at 7:00pm PT -- a 3-minute bidding window for only overtime lots. If there are no new bids after three minutes of Initial Overtime, bidding closes at 7:03pm PT. Only people who have already bid on or are tracking a lot will be able to see or participate on that lot Overtime.
            * For any lots that receive additional bids in “Initial Overtime,” there will be Extended Overtime. Extended Overtime begins at 7:03pm PT -- which consists of 30-second increments that restart every time a new bid is placed. This period ends when no new bid is received after 30 seconds or at 7:10pm PT, whichever is sooner.


            So, here’s some thoughts for all of you, and by the way, this is what I tell my personal friends who ask me the best way to win the wines they want on WineBid:

            Statistically, it is better to place your max bid early in the week. I know some of you don’t believe me, but this is a statistical fact based on the behaviors and outcomes we see in the marketplace.
            * Max bids does not mean an immediate bid at that price, which many people are confused by- it only means the max you are willing to go to.
            * Max bids are not revealed, so there is no public “information value” of max bidding.
            * As others point out, there is a signaling value to bidding early in the week, which often means bidders/snipers move on to other targets.
            * There is also a signaling value if you place a max bid a few $ more than the reserve-- if people try to outbid you, whether early or even near the end, a couple of auto-bids will signal your intent and they will often move to another target.
            * Finally, as others noted, a max bid beats a manual bid at the same value. So, if a wine is at $70 and your max bid is $73 and someone else bids $73, your $73 wins.
            * Max bids will roll over into overtime and take priority in overtime as well.
            * But very importantly- do not place falsely high max bids, because a max bid is non-retractable- and if two people place false max bids, someone is going to end up paying a lot for that.

            For those people who still want to bid last minute:
            * The recommendation is that you adjust your bidding early by 5 minutes- place your bids at 6:51-6:56pm PT and see if you “get lucky” and win your wine with no competition. If no one bids against you, you will still know at 7pm that you won that lot. We predict that most lots will continue to finalize at 7pm.
            * Of very important note- only people who have bid on or are tracking a wine will be able to see it and bid on it, or increase max bids, in Overtime Bidding. So- if your lot does go into overtime, you will not be up against “the world”- only the people who are already bidding or tracking that lot.
            * The three-minute Initial Overtime is to give people the time to log back in at the end, in case they really want to win a specific lot. We predict that most lots that go into overtime will finalize in the Initial Overtime.
            * The 30-second increments are to give final bidders and snipers time to decide how much further they want to go. We predict that most lots that go into Extended Overtime will not go more than 2 minutes (4-5 more increments). It’s possible (and I wouldn’t put it past this crowd, some of you know who you are!) that people will continue to place $1 increments every 29 seconds in Extended Overtime, up until 7:10pm, just to have fun with it.

            We appreciate all the feedback from the Berserkers. We are going to continue to listen to all our customers, to improve and innovate the online wine auction- buying, selling, and sharing experience- so that more people can buy or sell wines at the price they want.

            We sincerely wish you all happy winning, tasting and sharing.
            Appreciate the details Russ.....but it looks like you forgot to include my name in your 'Thank You' call out??? ;)

            Like I said from the very start, I've been a big/vocal Winebid supporter for a long time now and have turned many people onto your platform....which is probably why I've been the most vocal on the subject. I very much enjoyed the previous model and thought it was by far the most interesting, fair, and 'fun' online wine auction out there (and I've tried most). This new system changes that, and I feel that from a buyers perspective, for the worse. Am I swearing off Winebid and never using it again? Nope. I'll still give the new model a shot.....but am pretty confident that its going to lead to higher prices and substantially favor sellers/Winebid (which I hope you can admit is accurate), which may, unfortunately, lead to me being less active.

            Regardless, I do appreciate your involvement here on this board and completely get this decision from a business perspective.....but am certainly very disappointed that it's happening.
            Your post clearly labels you as a sniper!
            I truly hope you leave winebid.
            Thanks
            Ummm, Ken. Its pretty clear from the first page of this thread that I think 'sniping' is by far the most effective bidding strategy.

            If others placing last minute bids have ultimately caused you to miss out on wines that you were hoping to win, you may want to consider a new strategy Ken. Plenty of great suggestions throughout this thread [cheers.gif]

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            Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

            #296 Post by Ken Strauss »

            Marc Frontario wrote: March 8th, 2021, 8:38 pm
            RMann wrote: March 5th, 2021, 4:04 pm Hi all! As you all are among our most active and loyal customers, as well as acting as our unofficial QA team, I wanted to give the Berserkers the very first notice of a feature we will be launching in the next few weeks- Overtime Bidding!

            You asked for it, you got it. The opportunity to keep duking it out over hot lots in contention for up to 10 additional minutes. A sneak preview of the feature will be posted this Sunday after auction close, but we won't be launching for a few more weeks. We'll give you the heads up two weeks before actual go-live and will of course appreciate your feedback (and possibly your patience) as we try out this great new auction feature.

            Absolutely 100%>>NOT A FAN OF THIS...any other wine auctions u guys can recommend?
            Yes Marc
            You should seek out auctions that allow snipers!
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            Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

            #297 Post by Ken Strauss »

            Rich Brown wrote: March 8th, 2021, 8:38 pm
            Ken Strauss wrote: March 8th, 2021, 8:28 pm
            Rich Brown wrote: March 8th, 2021, 4:58 pm

            Appreciate the details Russ.....but it looks like you forgot to include my name in your 'Thank You' call out??? ;)

            Like I said from the very start, I've been a big/vocal Winebid supporter for a long time now and have turned many people onto your platform....which is probably why I've been the most vocal on the subject. I very much enjoyed the previous model and thought it was by far the most interesting, fair, and 'fun' online wine auction out there (and I've tried most). This new system changes that, and I feel that from a buyers perspective, for the worse. Am I swearing off Winebid and never using it again? Nope. I'll still give the new model a shot.....but am pretty confident that its going to lead to higher prices and substantially favor sellers/Winebid (which I hope you can admit is accurate), which may, unfortunately, lead to me being less active.

            Regardless, I do appreciate your involvement here on this board and completely get this decision from a business perspective.....but am certainly very disappointed that it's happening.
            Your post clearly labels you as a sniper!
            I truly hope you leave winebid.
            Thanks
            Ummm, Ken. Its pretty clear from the first page of this thread that I think 'sniping' is by far the most effective bidding strategy.

            If others placing last minute bids have ultimately caused you to miss out on wines that you were hoping to win, you may want to consider a new strategy Ken. Plenty of great suggestions throughout this thread [cheers.gif]

            Yes Rich
            I am well aware of that strategy.
            I am just not a fan. I welcome the ability to bid at the last moment after a sniper bids!
            champagne.gif
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            Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

            #298 Post by Alan Rath »

            It’s really unbelievable the amount of angst, even anger this has stirred up. The very epitome of a first world problem - “someone might be willing to pay a few bucks more for a bottle of wine whose price would feed a family for a week in a lot of places around the world”. Or rent for a month here in some cases. Sheesh.
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            Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

            #299 Post by Cris Whetstone »

            Alan Rath wrote: March 8th, 2021, 9:26 pm It’s really unbelievable the amount of angst, even anger this has stirred up. The very epitome of a first world problem - “someone might be willing to pay a few bucks more for a bottle of wine whose price would feed a family for a week in a lot of places around the world”. Or rent for a month here in some cases. Sheesh.
            While this issue is being blow a little bit out of proportion, it's never a good look for people here to accuse others of making too much of the hobby by using guilt. We are all guilty of taking expensive wine here seriously. None of us should pretend we are above that.
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            Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

            #300 Post by Brian G r a f s t r o m »

            Jayson Cohen wrote: March 8th, 2021, 5:11 pm As predicted, the Max Bid winning bidder at 9:57- (non-sniper) is screwed by a non-winning bid (lower than Max Bid) in the last three minutes as in my example above. That non-winning bid triggers the Initial Overtime even if that Max Bid is still ahead at 10. That does not seem fair. (I’ve put in early bids many times with a Max Bid that someone unsuccessfully tried to swipe at the last second under current rules.)
            Agreed. It strikes me as extremely weird that a **losing** bid in the final three minutes would be allowed to trigger the Overtime Period.
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