For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#401 Post by Victor Hong »

David_K wrote: March 30th, 2021, 11:28 am
Alan Rath wrote: March 30th, 2021, 10:57 amI’m missing the logic. If a lot you were bidding on went into OT, someone was obviously interested in the wine. They either outbid you, or pushed the price closer to your max bid, causing the time extension. One of you won at or below the price you were willing to pay. The system worked.

What I hear over and over is that people are unhappy they might have to pay closer to market price (or more, in cases where buyers get overly enthusiastic lol). What I don’t hear are sellers complaining. For every buyer, there’s a seller, and they are equally important to the process.

The idea that someone might go higher on a wine because he lost out on other lots seems dubious. You can’t say on one hand that you only buy bargains, but if you miss out on a bargain you might overspend on some other wine.

It’s actually getting a little tiresome reading people complain about an efficient market system.
So when you win a lot in OT, you're paying market price, but somehow when you win the wine before the introduction of the OT feature, it wasn't market price but rather some secret below-market deal? Everyone knows the intent of the feature is to increase the price at which wines sell. Whether that will happen or not is too soon to say. The price of goods goes up and down all the time. That doesn't mean that as a buyer, I have to be happy about it when the price of something I want to buy goes up, and when the experience of buying that good becomes less enjoyable.
Increasing the price may actually help buyers, by eliciting greater quantities of desirable goods supplied. A lot of nothing for a cheap price helps no buyer. Simple economics.
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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#402 Post by Alan Rath »

Being unhappy that you have to pay more is a natural reaction, I guess. Let’s start a thread on how unfair it is that more than one bidder for a house is allowed. Or that the price of coffee is going up due to shortages caused by the Suez Canal shutdown. Or that auction houses exist at all, because the competition to buy things is just not fun.

Seriously, as you say, we all know the rational for this change. Bring in more $$ for the sellers and for winebid, in those relatively few cases where snipers are at work.
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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#403 Post by Rodrigo B »

Alan Rath wrote: March 30th, 2021, 10:57 am The idea that someone might go higher on a wine because he lost out on other lots seems dubious. You can’t say on one hand that you only buy bargains, but if you miss out on a bargain you might overspend on some other wine.

It’s actually getting a little tiresome reading people complain about an efficient market system.
I’m not upset that I might have to end up paying higher than before or that there may be someone that’s willing to pay more for a bottle that I am. That’s just part of an auction dynamic, OT or no OT. If someone is willing to pay more than I am for a bottle, then that's their individual decision to make and I have no place to comment on it.

The shifting of spend on auction lots though is not a theoretical thing, but rather something I consistently do on WineBid auctions. I only have so much money to spend on wine so while I may be interested in and tracking many bottles, I only end up bidding on a smaller subset of that. I chose to bid closer to auction close as that allows me to get a clearer picture of where the prices for each bottle will end up. Then I chose which bottles to bid on based on my preferences and budget. If bottles that I bid on go beyond what I’m willing to pay for, more often than not, I chose to start bidding on another lot that’s still within my price tolerance or raise my max bid on a lot I really want. In other words, more often than not, the total amount I’m spending on any given auction doesn’t change, but the lots I bid on, or my max bids may as I reallocate my spend. Staggered closes fundamentally prevent me from doing that.

As a more concrete example, say I'm following 3 lots, lot A, lot B, and lot C priced at 50, 100, and 150 respectively. I may only bid on lots A and C, but if close to auction end the price of lot C hits $300, I may chose to no longer bid on that lot and to begin bidding on lot B now. Under the new bidding, if lot B isn't driven into extended bidding time, I will no longer be able to shift my spending in that way. If your end goal is to maximise prices for consigners, In this scenario with staggered closes the consigner of lot B wouldn’t maximise their sale price of that bottle as I wouldn’t be able to bid on it.

I fully understand that what I’m describing is a very niche bidding strategy that not many use. It would be silly for an auction house to cater to those in the minority, so I completely understand their decision and will just adapt to things. And in the aggregate across all lots though, there is no doubt that strike prices for sellers are maximised.
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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#404 Post by Alan Rath »

That makes perfect sense, though as you say I suspect it's a niche buyer strategy. My hunch is that a) the majority of lots will never go to OT bidding (I base that on having monitored plenty of lots, both selling and buying, and it's a small percentage that get bid on in any way during the last hour, and particularly last few minutes of the auction); and b) I'm actually happy that snipers can't swoop in at the last second and grab a wine for $1 more, leaving any other trackers who might have interest in counter bidding in the dust (assuming they are on line and paying attention - it's actually rare for me to be on the site Sunday at 7pm, I've either already place my max bid, or am not bidding by then, but I recognize everyone has different strategies).
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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#405 Post by Brian G r a f s t r o m »

Is it possible for folks to save-up more money so they can bid on more lots at once? Yes, this will require "sitting out" a week or two or five, but this would work, wouldn't it?
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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#406 Post by JDavisRoby »

People seem to be shocked when I tell them the definition of what “something” is worth regardless of what they think or what an appraiser says…it’s worth what someone is willing to pay.
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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#407 Post by Wes Barton »

Alan Rath wrote: March 30th, 2021, 10:57 amThe idea that someone might go higher on a wine because he lost out on other lots seems dubious. You can’t say on one hand that you only buy bargains, but if you miss out on a bargain you might overspend on some other wine.
I think it is about bargains, but rational. Say you see a multi-bottle lot of a wine you loved and would like to revisit, and it's opening for a steal. Say the alleged market rice is $60, but you haven't seen a bottle anywhere in years. Say you'd be willing to pay $70 for one, but have no problem taking all six for the opening bid of $20 per, or maybe a little more. So, you put in an autobid for all at that low price, but have to come back at the end to try to get at least one, depending on price.

Maybe there's a bunch of lots like that. Maybe a dump from some rare producer. 40 unique multi-bottle lots, 250 bottles total. A once in a lifetime opportunity to acquire some. You've seen 6 bottles total at auction over the last decade. You might happily go for a big quantity at bargain prices or pay a premium to get a few.
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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#408 Post by Alan Rath »

Wes Barton wrote: March 30th, 2021, 7:01 pm
Alan Rath wrote: March 30th, 2021, 10:57 amThe idea that someone might go higher on a wine because he lost out on other lots seems dubious. You can’t say on one hand that you only buy bargains, but if you miss out on a bargain you might overspend on some other wine.
I think it is about bargains, but rational. Say you see a multi-bottle lot of a wine you loved and would like to revisit, and it's opening for a steal. Say the alleged market rice is $60, but you haven't seen a bottle anywhere in years. Say you'd be willing to pay $70 for one, but have no problem taking all six for the opening bid of $20 per, or maybe a little more. So, you put in an autobid for all at that low price, but have to come back at the end to try to get at least one, depending on price.

Maybe there's a bunch of lots like that. Maybe a dump from some rare producer. 40 unique multi-bottle lots, 250 bottles total. A once in a lifetime opportunity to acquire some. You've seen 6 bottles total at auction over the last decade. You might happily go for a big quantity at bargain prices or pay a premium to get a few.
In all those cases I’ll bid early, set a max bid, and let the chips fall where they may. Overtime bidding doesn’t change the outcome, unless you’re seriously trying to track the progress of multiple lots, and update bids in real time. Not something I ever do.
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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#409 Post by Victor Hong »

Wes Barton wrote: March 30th, 2021, 7:01 pm
Alan Rath wrote: March 30th, 2021, 10:57 amThe idea that someone might go higher on a wine because he lost out on other lots seems dubious. You can’t say on one hand that you only buy bargains, but if you miss out on a bargain you might overspend on some other wine.
I think it is about bargains, but rational. Say you see a multi-bottle lot of a wine you loved and would like to revisit, and it's opening for a steal. Say the alleged market rice is $60, but you haven't seen a bottle anywhere in years. Say you'd be willing to pay $70 for one, but have no problem taking all six for the opening bid of $20 per, or maybe a little more. So, you put in an autobid for all at that low price, but have to come back at the end to try to get at least one, depending on price.

Maybe there's a bunch of lots like that. Maybe a dump from some rare producer. 40 unique multi-bottle lots, 250 bottles total. A once in a lifetime opportunity to acquire some. You've seen 6 bottles total at auction over the last decade. You might happily go for a big quantity at bargain prices or pay a premium to get a few.
Such was my WineHunter 2019 haul of old Liparita wines, for a song and a dance.
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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#410 Post by MikeL238 »

Victor Hong wrote: March 30th, 2021, 7:49 pm
Wes Barton wrote: March 30th, 2021, 7:01 pm
Alan Rath wrote: March 30th, 2021, 10:57 amThe idea that someone might go higher on a wine because he lost out on other lots seems dubious. You can’t say on one hand that you only buy bargains, but if you miss out on a bargain you might overspend on some other wine.
I think it is about bargains, but rational. Say you see a multi-bottle lot of a wine you loved and would like to revisit, and it's opening for a steal. Say the alleged market rice is $60, but you haven't seen a bottle anywhere in years. Say you'd be willing to pay $70 for one, but have no problem taking all six for the opening bid of $20 per, or maybe a little more. So, you put in an autobid for all at that low price, but have to come back at the end to try to get at least one, depending on price.

Maybe there's a bunch of lots like that. Maybe a dump from some rare producer. 40 unique multi-bottle lots, 250 bottles total. A once in a lifetime opportunity to acquire some. You've seen 6 bottles total at auction over the last decade. You might happily go for a big quantity at bargain prices or pay a premium to get a few.
Such was my WineHunter 2019 haul of old Liparita wines, for a song and a dance.
Those Liparitas were absolute steals. Thanks again for sharing your find Victor!
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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#411 Post by David K o l i n »

This has never been hard for me. I set me upper limit, bid it, and come back next week to check the results. The only complication is if my wife chooses to get involved in excess of my maximum bid. Then it’s her issue

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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#412 Post by Wes Barton »

Alan Rath wrote: March 30th, 2021, 7:17 pm
Wes Barton wrote: March 30th, 2021, 7:01 pm
Alan Rath wrote: March 30th, 2021, 10:57 amThe idea that someone might go higher on a wine because he lost out on other lots seems dubious. You can’t say on one hand that you only buy bargains, but if you miss out on a bargain you might overspend on some other wine.
I think it is about bargains, but rational. Say you see a multi-bottle lot of a wine you loved and would like to revisit, and it's opening for a steal. Say the alleged market rice is $60, but you haven't seen a bottle anywhere in years. Say you'd be willing to pay $70 for one, but have no problem taking all six for the opening bid of $20 per, or maybe a little more. So, you put in an autobid for all at that low price, but have to come back at the end to try to get at least one, depending on price.

Maybe there's a bunch of lots like that. Maybe a dump from some rare producer. 40 unique multi-bottle lots, 250 bottles total. A once in a lifetime opportunity to acquire some. You've seen 6 bottles total at auction over the last decade. You might happily go for a big quantity at bargain prices or pay a premium to get a few.
In all those cases I’ll bid early, set a max bid, and let the chips fall where they may. Overtime bidding doesn’t change the outcome, unless you’re seriously trying to track the progress of multiple lots, and update bids in real time. Not something I ever do.
I'm citing an economic case where the hammer price dictates the quantity you'd be willing to buy. A low autobid would mean you could get none, with others potentially buying them for less than you were willing to pay for a smaller quantity. A high autobid means you'd either be conceding to settle on fewer than you'd be able to buy for the price or you'd risk buying more than you want to spend.
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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#413 Post by M. Meer »

Wes Barton wrote: March 30th, 2021, 7:01 pm You might happily go for a big quantity at bargain prices...

or you'd risk buying more than you want to spend.
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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#414 Post by Jayson Cohen »

Well, that was a shit show this week. Not doing that again unless the interface changes or they stagger the Overtime lots.

It’s impossible to track multiple wines in Overtime when all tracked wines for the entire auction still appear in Bids without any way to automatically sort the Overtime wines to the top. I was tracking at least ten lots that went to Overtime, very serious about probably 4 or 5 of them but only depending on how high each other lot went. I would have likely put in successful bids (or driven the price up further) on 2 more wines if it wasn’t such a shit show. As it was, I won one lot. I was happy about that.

Not fun. Not an experience I care to repeat. There are too many other ways to buy wine.

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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#415 Post by Rodrigo B »

Jayson Cohen wrote: April 4th, 2021, 7:41 pm Well, that was a shit show this week. Not doing that again unless the interface changes or they stagger the Overtime lots.

It’s impossible to track multiple wines in Overtime when all tracked wines for the entire auction still appear in Bids without any way to automatically sort the Overtime wines to the top. I was tracking at least ten lots that went to Overtime, very serious about probably 4 or 5 of them but only depending on how high each other lot went. I would have likely put in successful bids (or driven the price up further) on 2 more wines if it wasn’t such a shit show. As it was, I won one lot. I was happy about that.

Not fun. Not an experience I care to repeat. There are too many other ways to buy wine.
I wasn't bidding on many lots this week, but I did notice that when overtime started there was a separate filter for wines that went to overtime on the left hand side on the bid page.
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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#416 Post by Jayson Cohen »

Rodrigo B wrote: April 4th, 2021, 8:09 pm
Jayson Cohen wrote: April 4th, 2021, 7:41 pm Well, that was a shit show this week. Not doing that again unless the interface changes or they stagger the Overtime lots.

It’s impossible to track multiple wines in Overtime when all tracked wines for the entire auction still appear in Bids without any way to automatically sort the Overtime wines to the top. I was tracking at least ten lots that went to Overtime, very serious about probably 4 or 5 of them but only depending on how high each other lot went. I would have likely put in successful bids (or driven the price up further) on 2 more wines if it wasn’t such a shit show. As it was, I won one lot. I was happy about that.

Not fun. Not an experience I care to repeat. There are too many other ways to buy wine.
I wasn't bidding on many lots this week, but I did notice that when overtime started there was a separate filter for wines that went to overtime on the left hand side on the bid page.
Do you use a laptop or mobile? I’m on my phone. I always bid from my phone.

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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#417 Post by Rodrigo B »

Jayson Cohen wrote: April 4th, 2021, 8:16 pm
Rodrigo B wrote: April 4th, 2021, 8:09 pm
Jayson Cohen wrote: April 4th, 2021, 7:41 pm Well, that was a shit show this week. Not doing that again unless the interface changes or they stagger the Overtime lots.

It’s impossible to track multiple wines in Overtime when all tracked wines for the entire auction still appear in Bids without any way to automatically sort the Overtime wines to the top. I was tracking at least ten lots that went to Overtime, very serious about probably 4 or 5 of them but only depending on how high each other lot went. I would have likely put in successful bids (or driven the price up further) on 2 more wines if it wasn’t such a shit show. As it was, I won one lot. I was happy about that.

Not fun. Not an experience I care to repeat. There are too many other ways to buy wine.
I wasn't bidding on many lots this week, but I did notice that when overtime started there was a separate filter for wines that went to overtime on the left hand side on the bid page.
Do you use a laptop or mobile? I’m on my phone. I always bid from my phone.
Laptop. Maybe that's where the difference is. In the Bids section where you can filter through Tracking, Winning, and Outbid, etc. when OT started, in the full web version at least, there was an Overtime section as well for wines I was tracking that were currently in overtime. Strange that it wasn't available in the app version. Hopefully Russ and the team add it if that's not the case
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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#418 Post by Jayson Cohen »

Rodrigo B wrote: April 4th, 2021, 8:21 pm
Jayson Cohen wrote: April 4th, 2021, 8:16 pm
Rodrigo B wrote: April 4th, 2021, 8:09 pm

I wasn't bidding on many lots this week, but I did notice that when overtime started there was a separate filter for wines that went to overtime on the left hand side on the bid page.
Do you use a laptop or mobile? I’m on my phone. I always bid from my phone.
Laptop. Maybe that's where the difference is. In the Bids section where you can filter through Tracking, Winning, and Outbid, etc. when OT started, in the full web version at least, there was an Overtime section as well for wines I was tracking that were currently in overtime. Strange that it wasn't available in the app version. Hopefully Russ and the team add it if that's not the case
I looked for an Overtime filter and didn’t see it. It’s possible I missed it.

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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#419 Post by Rodrigo B »

Jayson Cohen wrote: April 4th, 2021, 8:42 pm
Rodrigo B wrote: April 4th, 2021, 8:21 pm
Jayson Cohen wrote: April 4th, 2021, 8:16 pm

Do you use a laptop or mobile? I’m on my phone. I always bid from my phone.
Laptop. Maybe that's where the difference is. In the Bids section where you can filter through Tracking, Winning, and Outbid, etc. when OT started, in the full web version at least, there was an Overtime section as well for wines I was tracking that were currently in overtime. Strange that it wasn't available in the app version. Hopefully Russ and the team add it if that's not the case
I looked for an Overtime filter and didn’t see it. It’s possible I missed it.
It's hard for me to say if it's there on the mobile app or not since I didn't use it when bidding in OT. All I can say is that the filter exists on the full web version. If it's not the app, hopefully the app is updated by next week to include that filter. I'd certainly be frustrated if I couldn't filter OT bids in the app
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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#420 Post by AndyK »

Jayson Cohen wrote: April 4th, 2021, 7:41 pm Well, that was a shit show this week. Not doing that again unless the interface changes or they stagger the Overtime lots.

It’s impossible to track multiple wines in Overtime when all tracked wines for the entire auction still appear in Bids without any way to automatically sort the Overtime wines to the top. I was tracking at least ten lots that went to Overtime, very serious about probably 4 or 5 of them but only depending on how high each other lot went. I would have likely put in successful bids (or driven the price up further) on 2 more wines if it wasn’t such a shit show. As it was, I won one lot. I was happy about that.

Not fun. Not an experience I care to repeat. There are too many other ways to buy wine.
Same experience, I absolutely hate overtime. The terrible interface doesn't make it any better. I had 6 or more lots go into OT this week and 3 or 4 into double OT.

The first OT is bad enough, but at least you have some time to try figuring out what's going on and check each lot and consider making a bid. The second overtime them suddenly has all bottles with only a few seconds left, how are you supposed to track all of this and make a bid?! [swearing.gif]

/edit: I was on my laptop, can't even imagine how bad it would be on the phone. Poorly designed money grab IMO
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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#421 Post by Victor Hong »

AndyK wrote: April 5th, 2021, 10:02 am
Jayson Cohen wrote: April 4th, 2021, 7:41 pm Well, that was a shit show this week. Not doing that again unless the interface changes or they stagger the Overtime lots.

It’s impossible to track multiple wines in Overtime when all tracked wines for the entire auction still appear in Bids without any way to automatically sort the Overtime wines to the top. I was tracking at least ten lots that went to Overtime, very serious about probably 4 or 5 of them but only depending on how high each other lot went. I would have likely put in successful bids (or driven the price up further) on 2 more wines if it wasn’t such a shit show. As it was, I won one lot. I was happy about that.

Not fun. Not an experience I care to repeat. There are too many other ways to buy wine.
Same experience, I absolutely hate overtime. The terrible interface doesn't make it any better. I had 6 or more lots go into OT this week and 3 or 4 into double OT.

The first OT is bad enough, but at least you have some time to try figuring out what's going on and check each lot and consider making a bid. The second overtime them suddenly has all bottles with only a few seconds left, how are you supposed to track all of this and make a bid?! [swearing.gif]

/edit: I was on my laptop, can't even imagine how bad it would be on the phone. Poorly designed money grab IMO
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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#422 Post by Marshall Manning »

I thought it was weird that lots with multiple bottles that didn't even sell out still went into OT because someone bid at 6:58. It would seem to me that it should only trigger that if all bottles are spoken for. If it's a lot with 12 bottles and only 6 are bid on why wouldn't it close at the normal time?
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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#423 Post by AndyK »

Marshall Manning wrote: April 5th, 2021, 10:57 am I thought it was weird that lots with multiple bottles that didn't even sell out still went into OT because someone bid at 6:58. It would seem to me that it should only trigger that if all bottles are spoken for. If it's a lot with 12 bottles and only 6 are bid on why wouldn't it close at the normal time?
Good point, that actually happened to one of my lots yesterday. Doesn't make sense to me...
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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#424 Post by Jayson Cohen »

AndyK wrote: April 5th, 2021, 10:02 am
Jayson Cohen wrote: April 4th, 2021, 7:41 pm Well, that was a shit show this week. Not doing that again unless the interface changes or they stagger the Overtime lots.

It’s impossible to track multiple wines in Overtime when all tracked wines for the entire auction still appear in Bids without any way to automatically sort the Overtime wines to the top. I was tracking at least ten lots that went to Overtime, very serious about probably 4 or 5 of them but only depending on how high each other lot went. I would have likely put in successful bids (or driven the price up further) on 2 more wines if it wasn’t such a shit show. As it was, I won one lot. I was happy about that.

Not fun. Not an experience I care to repeat. There are too many other ways to buy wine.
Same experience, I absolutely hate overtime. The terrible interface doesn't make it any better. I had 6 or more lots go into OT this week and 3 or 4 into double OT.

The first OT is bad enough, but at least you have some time to try figuring out what's going on and check each lot and consider making a bid. The second overtime them suddenly has all bottles with only a few seconds left, how are you supposed to track all of this and make a bid?! [swearing.gif]

/edit: I was on my laptop, can't even imagine how bad it would be on the phone. Poorly designed money grab IMO
So bad I blocked out double OT. At least 2 of the lots. Probably 3. The Cotats.

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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#425 Post by Larry Stein »

AndyK wrote: April 5th, 2021, 11:05 am
Marshall Manning wrote: April 5th, 2021, 10:57 am I thought it was weird that lots with multiple bottles that didn't even sell out still went into OT because someone bid at 6:58. It would seem to me that it should only trigger that if all bottles are spoken for. If it's a lot with 12 bottles and only 6 are bid on why wouldn't it close at the normal time?
Good point, that actually happened to one of my lots yesterday. Doesn't make sense to me...
That's a software bug, pure and simple. I'm no software developer, but it seems to me an additional else clause in an if/else statement (or something similar) would work as a fix.

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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#426 Post by Alan Rath »

AndyK wrote: April 5th, 2021, 11:05 am
Marshall Manning wrote: April 5th, 2021, 10:57 am I thought it was weird that lots with multiple bottles that didn't even sell out still went into OT because someone bid at 6:58. It would seem to me that it should only trigger that if all bottles are spoken for. If it's a lot with 12 bottles and only 6 are bid on why wouldn't it close at the normal time?
Good point, that actually happened to one of my lots yesterday. Doesn't make sense to me...
Suppose you’re tracking a lot, with some unclaimed bottles. There’s last minute activity, but still leaving some bottles unclaimed. Would you rather see that, and have a chance to snap up the remaining bottles, or have them go over to the next week, at the same price? And if there are still unclaimed bottles at the end of OT, you’ve still won those you bid on. What’s the downside? Remember, only trackers can bid, not just anyone.
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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#427 Post by Larry Stein »

Alan Rath wrote: April 5th, 2021, 11:26 am
AndyK wrote: April 5th, 2021, 11:05 am
Marshall Manning wrote: April 5th, 2021, 10:57 am I thought it was weird that lots with multiple bottles that didn't even sell out still went into OT because someone bid at 6:58. It would seem to me that it should only trigger that if all bottles are spoken for. If it's a lot with 12 bottles and only 6 are bid on why wouldn't it close at the normal time?
Good point, that actually happened to one of my lots yesterday. Doesn't make sense to me...
Suppose you’re tracking a lot, with some unclaimed bottles. There’s last minute activity, but still leaving some bottles unclaimed. Would you rather see that, and have a chance to snap up the remaining bottles, or have them go over to the next week, at the same price? And if there are still unclaimed bottles at the end of OT, you’ve still won those you bid on. What’s the downside? Remember, only trackers can bid, not just anyone.
Disagree. If there are unclaimed bottles *and* if the bidder bids on that bottle quantity only or less, that should not impact the bottles that already have bids. Therefore, the lot should not go into OT.

Let's say 4 bottles
2 bottles have a bid. Doesn't matter if it's from one or two bidders (in this case, one for each bottle).
At the last minute, there's a bid on one or two of the unclaimed bottles.
That will not impact the already bid-upon bottles >> Should not go to OT.
IF that bidder wants 3 bottles or the entire lot, different story >> Go to OT.

The algorithm was coded incorrectly.

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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#428 Post by Alan Rath »

Disagree ;)

Seriously, I have lots of multiple bottles I watch. If a couple get snagged, I might hold off and try to get some next week, depending on my budget. But if enough get claimed that I can see they will disappear, or there could be more bidding next week, I might grab them now.

Anyway, I don’t think there is an absolute right or wrong here, and I actually prefer the way it works now.
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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#429 Post by Larry Stein »

Why should a bid on an unclaimed bottle have an impact on the whole lot? Mr. Spock says that's illogical. Those people who bid and their bottles aren't affected should NOT have to deal with OT.

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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#430 Post by AndyK »

Alan Rath wrote: April 5th, 2021, 11:26 am
AndyK wrote: April 5th, 2021, 11:05 am
Marshall Manning wrote: April 5th, 2021, 10:57 am I thought it was weird that lots with multiple bottles that didn't even sell out still went into OT because someone bid at 6:58. It would seem to me that it should only trigger that if all bottles are spoken for. If it's a lot with 12 bottles and only 6 are bid on why wouldn't it close at the normal time?
Good point, that actually happened to one of my lots yesterday. Doesn't make sense to me...
Suppose you’re tracking a lot, with some unclaimed bottles. There’s last minute activity, but still leaving some bottles unclaimed. Would you rather see that, and have a chance to snap up the remaining bottles, or have them go over to the next week, at the same price? And if there are still unclaimed bottles at the end of OT, you’ve still won those you bid on. What’s the downside? Remember, only trackers can bid, not just anyone.
This was for a lot of two bottles, one of which I had the high bid on. There was one bid at 6.58pm for the second bottle (I was still the high bidder on mine) and BOTH bottles went into overtime. Why would that person bidding on one (or anyone who's tracking the bottles) suddenly get a new shot at both?
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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#431 Post by Larry Stein »

AndyK wrote: April 5th, 2021, 11:44 am
Alan Rath wrote: April 5th, 2021, 11:26 am
AndyK wrote: April 5th, 2021, 11:05 am

Good point, that actually happened to one of my lots yesterday. Doesn't make sense to me...
Suppose you’re tracking a lot, with some unclaimed bottles. There’s last minute activity, but still leaving some bottles unclaimed. Would you rather see that, and have a chance to snap up the remaining bottles, or have them go over to the next week, at the same price? And if there are still unclaimed bottles at the end of OT, you’ve still won those you bid on. What’s the downside? Remember, only trackers can bid, not just anyone.
This was for a lot of two bottles, one of which I had the high bid on. There was one bid at 6.58pm for the second bottle (I was still the high bidder on mine) and BOTH bottles went into overtime. Why would that person bidding on one (or anyone who's tracking the bottles) suddenly get a new shot at both?
Exactly! If the guy wanted both, that's a different story. He didn't. I say you and I slap Alan around on tonight's call. Are ya with me? [highfive.gif]

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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#432 Post by Alan Rath »

AndyK wrote: April 5th, 2021, 11:44 am
Alan Rath wrote: April 5th, 2021, 11:26 am
AndyK wrote: April 5th, 2021, 11:05 am

Good point, that actually happened to one of my lots yesterday. Doesn't make sense to me...
Suppose you’re tracking a lot, with some unclaimed bottles. There’s last minute activity, but still leaving some bottles unclaimed. Would you rather see that, and have a chance to snap up the remaining bottles, or have them go over to the next week, at the same price? And if there are still unclaimed bottles at the end of OT, you’ve still won those you bid on. What’s the downside? Remember, only trackers can bid, not just anyone.
This was for a lot of two bottles, one of which I had the high bid on. There was one bid at 6.58pm for the second bottle (I was still the high bidder on mine) and BOTH bottles went into overtime. Why would that person bidding on one (or anyone who's tracking the bottles) suddenly get a new shot at both?
Did he take the second one from you in OT? And I really only care if it means we don’t get to drink either bottle neener

Anyway, I’m fine with it working either way, I think there is logic on both sides.

Btw, did you win those pi bottles? I was tempted, need to exchange handles.
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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#433 Post by J. Migone »

I'm just waiting until the last two minutes to place my original bid if there are any trackers. Otherwise, someone will bid it up. Prices have gotten crazy the last three weeks.
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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#434 Post by jprusack »

a bottle i was eyeing went way out of my price range with 1-2 hours to go and the only other i had a bid on didnt even go to overtime.

but...for the other bottles i was tracking or watching...it seemed like an absolute mess in this 'overtime.' it turns me off from buying frankly.

i love winebid but this is not a positive development.
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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#435 Post by Victor Hong »

No OT by the coder. [wow.gif]
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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#436 Post by AndyK »

Alan Rath wrote: April 5th, 2021, 11:59 am
AndyK wrote: April 5th, 2021, 11:44 am
Alan Rath wrote: April 5th, 2021, 11:26 am
Suppose you’re tracking a lot, with some unclaimed bottles. There’s last minute activity, but still leaving some bottles unclaimed. Would you rather see that, and have a chance to snap up the remaining bottles, or have them go over to the next week, at the same price? And if there are still unclaimed bottles at the end of OT, you’ve still won those you bid on. What’s the downside? Remember, only trackers can bid, not just anyone.
This was for a lot of two bottles, one of which I had the high bid on. There was one bid at 6.58pm for the second bottle (I was still the high bidder on mine) and BOTH bottles went into overtime. Why would that person bidding on one (or anyone who's tracking the bottles) suddenly get a new shot at both?
Did he take the second one from you in OT? And I really only care if it means we don’t get to drink either bottle neener

Anyway, I’m fine with it working either way, I think there is logic on both sides.

Btw, did you win those pi bottles? I was tempted, need to exchange handles.
I got the bottle, there was no more bid on that particular lot. It was just weird that it went into OT...

I didn't bid on the 3.14, was tempted, but I bought a good amount of the 2013 and still have some left (including a magnum).
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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#437 Post by Victor Hong »

Somehow, this collided with the thread about passing on tempting wines, so that others could buy.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=177350
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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#438 Post by RMann »

Hi all, just checking in and scrolling through and absorbing everyone's feedback. Victor, Andy, JPRusack, JMigone, Alan, Larry, Andy, Jayson, Manning, MarkM, Rodrigo, Wes, David, Brig, JDavisRoby- you guys all crack me up with your back and forth. It has been great to see such a spirited debate and discussion! It's amazing how long a thread just 15-20 people can create.

Since Brig asked, here are some stats:

* 100% of you are correct. In that you are all entitled to your opinions, and we are actually reviewing them and considering the feedback. And I don't say this lightly, we really do care about your feedback.
* That being said, and even with tens of thousands of people visiting the website monthly and thousands participating in the auction weekly- we did not get a whole lot of feedback overall, because most of the wines did not go into overtime. This is especially true at the high end, where collectors know what they want, they know what it’s worth, and they set their max bids early through the week, rather than wait til the last second.
* Of the feedback we did get, including non-Berserker feedback, we had about 2/3 positive, 1/3 negative feedback. As expected and astutely predicted by Alan and Victor, the positive feedback was from sellers and people who really want what they wanted and didn't like getting sniped. We also had many non-Berserkers directly note that OT was enjoyable, fun, exciting, and made it more interesting.
* The negative feedback was almost exclusively here on Berserkers, and really only about 5-10 of you very vocal self-professed snipers who like to trade in $35-75 wines and steal them away from each other for a few bucks under what others are willing to pay for them. You all are a very specific, very unique niche in the overall marketplace, so I guess that's why you're "Berserkers." And even with that, of the 15 people listed above, my rough tally was 1/3 were negative, 1/3 were positive, 1/3 were neutral/curious/ intellectually interested but not really impacted.
* And finally, to reiterate a note above, in a different way: Victor and Alan are absolutely correct: we received many private emails and calls from consignors of wine who love the new feature, and as a result are looking to release more wine to WineBid. Happier sellers yields more sellers and more selection overall- which in turn benefits all of you.

On a technical note, to the two key questions about tracking lots in overtime as well as the multi-bottle lot question:

* To Jayson and other’s questions about filtering to just overtime lots- as Rodrigo noted, on your desktop, you can filter down to just lots in overtime on the left side menu, where there are links for all activity, tracking, winning, Outbid, and a Lots in overtime link appears, which shows only your lots in overtime. In the mobile application, if you go to the Bids function, you will see a bright orange bar where it says BIDS and a down arrow icon on the right. If you click that down arrow, you will see the same links: All activity, Tracking, Winning, Outbid, Lots in Overtime. From either the desktop or the mobile version, you can track and bid on all lots on that page without having to drill into the item detail. So you can easily watch and update each one, even in extended overtime.

* With regard to the multi-bottle lot behavior: This works exactly as intended- which is exactly the same as it behaved up to 7pm, but now simply in overtime. As Alan notes, if any one bottle in a multi-bottle lot goes into overtime, it sends the whole lot into overtime, as individual bidders or trackers may at that point want to bid on the entire lot or some quantity lesser than the entirety but more than those spoken for, at a price higher than the bottom price. In order to take away one or more of the lower bottles, they need to bid at or above the current reserve. If all the bottles in the lot are at the same reserve, max bids take priority over earlier bids, and earlier bids take priority over later bids. Important point- if 4 bottles are currently sitting at $50 and you have a max bid of $55 on all 4, then if someone bids $51, it necessarily upticks all your bottles to $51. Just as it is not possible to steal (or lose) bottle with a lower bid for one bottle than the max bid set across the lot, it mathematically equates that the entire lot must uptick by $1 per bottle. However, if a bidder bids $56 on one bottle, then they win one bottle at $56 and the original bidder wins the rest at $50. Thus, to Wes’ question about whether to bid high on 1-2 bottles that you really want, or low across all the bottles in the lot, if you really want just one or two, then bid your max bid early on just 1-2 and you will more likely win at least one or two, and probably at much lower than your max bid, than bidding low across many and then having the reserves keep ticking up across all of them. If you are really just looking for a deal up to a certain price but then walking away, then bid lower across all lots and see if you end up with several at the price you want.

We're sorry that several of you don’t like the new feature or the way it’s implemented. But we can tell you the majority are either unimpacted or appreciate it. We do greatly appreciate everyone’s feedback, ideas and participation. We will endeavor to keep innovating and creating engaging experiences that benefit all the buyers and sellers of fine, vintage and unique wines.

We sincerely hope you all continue to win the wines you want at the prices you want and have a great time doing it. And we hope that soon everyone will be vaccinated and safe to share these great wines and experiences with friends and family in person!
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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#439 Post by Rodrigo B »

Thanks for the information Russ

One questions about overtime. Has there been any feedback on the intervals. I haven’t participated in an auction where multiple lots I want go into OT, but has 30 seconds been enough time for people to be able to increase their bids across all the lots they are interested in? Would larger intervals work best to serve that?

Edit: Also curious to know, of the lots that that gone into OT, how many iterations of bidding have happened on average on OT lots? Are people just using the first round of OT to readjust their max bids or are lots spending a lot of time in OT?
Last edited by Rodrigo B on April 8th, 2021, 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#440 Post by Jay Miller »

Larry Stein wrote: April 5th, 2021, 11:44 am Why should a bid on an unclaimed bottle have an impact on the whole lot? Mr. Spock says that's illogical. Those people who bid and their bottles aren't affected should NOT have to deal with OT.
Agreed. This seems like lazy programming/an oversight.
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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#441 Post by Jayson Cohen »

Jay Miller wrote: April 8th, 2021, 12:38 pm
Larry Stein wrote: April 5th, 2021, 11:44 am Why should a bid on an unclaimed bottle have an impact on the whole lot? Mr. Spock says that's illogical. Those people who bid and their bottles aren't affected should NOT have to deal with OT.
Agreed. This seems like lazy programming/an oversight.
Apparently not. Deliberate. See Russ.

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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#442 Post by RMann »

Jay Miller wrote: April 8th, 2021, 12:38 pm
Larry Stein wrote: April 5th, 2021, 11:44 am Why should a bid on an unclaimed bottle have an impact on the whole lot? Mr. Spock says that's illogical. Those people who bid and their bottles aren't affected should NOT have to deal with OT.
Agreed. This seems like lazy programming/an oversight.
Gents, this was very carefully thought through. It is neither illogical, nor lazy, nor an oversight. It is math and efficient auction mechanics. What Mr. Spock might raise an eyebrow at is calling something illogical or lazy just because it does not agree with your own assumptions or preferred outcome, based on incomplete data. More likely, his description would have been "Fascinating!" [cheers.gif]

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Re: For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

#443 Post by RMann »

Rodrigo B wrote: April 8th, 2021, 10:11 am Thanks for the information Russ

One questions about overtime. Has there been any feedback on the intervals. I haven’t participated in an auction where multiple lots I want go into OT, but has 30 seconds been enough time for people to be able to increase their bids across all the lots they are interested in? Would larger intervals work best to serve that?

Edit: Also curious to know, of the lots that that gone into OT, how many iterations of bidding have happened on average on OT lots? Are people just using the first round of OT to readjust their max bids or are lots spending a lot of time in OT?
Hi Rodrigo, thanks for the question. We thought a lot about intervals, observed bidder behaviors and also looked at other soft close auctions. The only comments on intervals have been here on Berserkers. I personally feel like the initial OT 3 minutes is a little long, but people seem to appreciate the extra time to think, log in, etc. On extended OT, we've seen that 30 seconds with a clock reset every time the new bid is placed is exactly right. Most folks were able to use the OT only link in the left side menu and managed multiple lots in overtime just fine - we had highlighted it in multiple communications after all. (although Jayson was correct in noting that the mobile link was a little more difficult to find). And as predicted earlier, with this format, the extra bidding exhausts itself pretty quickly and the real value of the items becomes discovered.

With regard to your second question, I don't have any answers for you there and probably won't be able to release that level of granular data.
Russ Mann, CEO WineBid

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