For Berserker eyes first- new WineBid feature coming soon

[RMann]

Hi all! As you all are among our most active and loyal customers, as well as acting as our unofficial QA team, I wanted to give the Berserkers the very first notice of a feature we will be launching in the next few weeks- Overtime Bidding!

You asked for it, you got it. The opportunity to keep duking it out over hot lots in contention for up to 10 additional minutes. A sneak preview of the feature will be posted this Sunday after auction close, but we won't be launching for a few more weeks. We'll give you the heads up two weeks before actual go-live and will of course appreciate your feedback (and possibly your patience) as we try out this great new auction feature.

[Rich Brown]

I posted in the other thread, but copy/pasting my thoughts here as well.

Damn Russ, I think you are doing in incredible job at Winebid and appreciate your engagement/interaction here....but as a buyer....I absolutley HATE this. I think Spectrum or Brentwood does something similar, and its just a brutally bad experience. As many of us have mentioned it is thread....its already enough of a pain in the ass to make sure we have our final bids in before 7pm on a Sunday.....and now we have to worry about 'duking it out' for 10 additional minutes. Again, I am one of the biggest/most vocal supporters.....but this sucks.

Now as a seller and for Winebid, this is great, as you will obviously make more money, so from a business decision perspective, I totally get it......but it still sucks

[Cris Whetstone]

I posted in the other thread, but copy/pasting my thoughts here as well.

Damn Russ, I think you are doing in incredible job at Winebid and appreciate your engagement/interaction here....but as a buyer....I absolutley HATE this. I think Spectrum or Brentwood does something similar, and its just a brutally bad experience. As many of us have mentioned it is thread....its already enough of a pain in the ass to make sure we have our final bids in before 7pm on a Sunday.....and now we have to worry about 'duking it out' for 10 additional minutes. Again, I am one of the biggest/most vocal supporters.....but this sucks.

Now as a seller and for Winebid, this is great, as you will obviously make more money, so from a business decision perspective, I totally get it......but it still sucks

Pretty much. It feels like punishing people who show up on time.

[brigcampbell]

Good news, you can pay more for your wine!

[Rich Brown]

Good news, you can pay more for your wine!

Exaaaactly.

Seriously just a huge bummer

[Mark Y]

As a bidding customer, why would i want this feature that sucks in every way?

unless i guess the customer is the seller.. which if i was one, I would love/see all the value

[brigcampbell]

And exactly who are the people "you asked for it, you got it"?

He's hearing it now. LOL

[Scott Brunson]

So snipers have 10 extra minutes.
Got it.

[brigcampbell]

So snipers have 10 extra minutes.
Got it.

Set a reserve or not and make the auction 10 minutes long and be done with it.

[Glen Gold]

Like Rich Brown, I am a huge fan of your site, I love to buy stuff and I think you're incredibly conscientious. That said, this is a terrible idea.
I am involved in several hobbies that have little in common except that when auction houses do this, it enrages people, including me, for all the reasons mentioned above.

[RMann]

Hi all, thanks for your kind comments. Please reserve judgment until you see how it's implemented. We're really trying to improve the experience for everyone, and we've done a lot of analysis on this. We hear your initial reaction and will definitely take it into account, but there are some unique features that you'll have to wait and see. But this is why I thought to give you all the very first heads up.

In the meantime, we sincerely hope everyone is enjoying winning, tasting and sharing great wines.

[MattYackel]

No reserving opinion, this is absolutely awful and my days at Winebid.com are likely done.

[Larry Stein]

I can’t understand why bidding closures aren’t staggered like what K&L does. It works really well. Personnel-wise, I can’t imagine they have that much more staff than WineBid so handling that scenario shouldn’t be an issue.

I’ll reserve judgement, but on the surface this change just seems like a weird idea.

FYI, I’ve been in software quality for nearly 30 years, the last 15 in medical device. I can definitely tell you what works properly and what doesn’t. In your case, the patient won’t die if there’s a high severity bug that isn’t fixed!

[Keith Levenberg]

I can’t understand why bidding closures aren’t staggered like what K&L does.

Because the K&L system sucks. I have no realistic ability to keep track of when everything I might be interested in is closing, so the end result is that I never know until I get the "sorry, you missed it" email. Whereas on winebid I can have a fun time logging in same time every week and spend 5 minutes figuring out if I want anything.

I do not like the idea of post-close bidding - it's annoying - but I think it is a mistake to say things like "good for sellers, bad for buyers." If a system is good for sellers, more people sell, increasing supply relative to demand, which is good for buyers. These things always even out.

[D@vid Bu3ker]

I've only ever dealt (administratively) with overtime bidding in charity situations, but no matter how it's done it sucks. No way to put lipstick on this pig.

[Larry Stein]

I can’t understand why bidding closures aren’t staggered like what K&L does.

Because the K&L system sucks. I have no realistic ability to keep track of when everything I might be interested in is closing, so the end result is that I never know until I get the "sorry, you missed it" email. Whereas on winebid I can have a fun time logging in same time every week and spend 5 minutes figuring out if I want anything.

I do not like the idea of post-close bidding - it's annoying - but I think it is a mistake to say things like "good for sellers, bad for buyers." If a system is good for sellers, more people sell, increasing supply relative to demand, which is good for buyers. These things always even out.

Sucks for you, but not for me. That’s what phone reminders are for.

[Keith Levenberg]

Yeah, not interested in doing that. So I don't. I have enough nagging in my life I don't need to introduce it into the pleasurable activity of buying wine.

[Vincent Fritzsche]

Hmm, I'm surprised at the feedback here. Auctions are live things. Show up and get your goods. Don't show and maybe get sniped. It's happened plenty to me. Maybe you show up and still get sniped, but how many times have you gotten a bid in late and won and thought great, where someone else out there thought they got sniped. Are snipers just people who want it more than you and are willing to bid for it? The more I do this, the more it seems that way.

And honestly, I'd sell more at auction if the prices were better, but unless it's culty stuff, you can get wines routinely for wholesale or even less, even with the commission. Better prices might bring more interesting lots. The point is - there are always less obvious outcomes from change. Embrace it more. Maybe it will suck but it doesn't yet. I'm interested to see the feature.

[David_K]

Sorry, but I'm pretty sure nobody asked for this.

[B. Buzzini]

What about implementing the “going once..twice...” minute? If someone bids at 6:59.30...it triggers a going once..twice..minute to bid. Continues until no more bids after the extended minute(s).

I personally like it the way it is...I think snipping is FUN!

[John Telford]

Ridiculous

[Steve Saxon]

Hey Russ, gotta tell ya that I'm not a fan of this either. The one thing I can count on is that when time runs out I know the wine that I bid on is mine.

[Brian G r a f s t r o m]

I can’t understand why bidding closures aren’t staggered like what K&L does.

Because the K&L system sucks. I have no realistic ability to keep track of when everything I might be interested in is closing, so the end result is that I never know until I get the "sorry, you missed it" email. Whereas on winebid I can have a fun time logging in same time every week and spend 5 minutes figuring out if I want anything.
...

If you make use of the "Add to Watchlist" feature you can easily keep track of everything you are interested in.

1. Add auction lots to your Watchlist (or bid on the lot)
2. Click on "My Account"
3. Click on "Auctions - Buying" in the "Auctions" section of "My Account"
4. Voila! You can then view the list of lots you are bidding on. You can also view the list of the lots on your Watchlist.

Super easy, and I'm pretty sure this is exactly what you're looking for.

[Joe W i n o g r a d]

This feature is definitely needed if the site is overloaded and timely bids are being rejected. That final minute is when competitive lots reach their market price. If bids aren’t being taken, it’s not an auction.

[Brian G r a f s t r o m]

What about implementing the “going once..twice...” minute? If someone bids at 6:59.30...it triggers a going once..twice..minute to bid. Continues until no more bids after the extended minute(s).

+1. This functionality *prevents* sniping and maximizes hammer price. Adding 10 minutes just adds 10 minutes, and does not materially change anything.

[Brian G r a f s t r o m]

This feature is definitely needed if the site is overloaded and timely bids are being rejected. That final minute is when competitive lots reach their market price. If bids aren’t being taken, it’s not an auction.

Adding 10 minutes will just shift that "final minute" to 10 minutes later, where the same problem will still exist (assuming it was happening in the first place).

[Joe W i n o g r a d]

This feature is definitely needed if the site is overloaded and timely bids are being rejected. That final minute is when competitive lots reach their market price. If bids aren’t being taken, it’s not an auction.

Adding 10 minutes will just shift that "final minute" to 10 minutes later, where the same problem will still exist (assuming it was happening in the first place).

I agree they are headed the wrong direction with this but it’s also the case that as the price goes up, the number of bidders will decrease and the traffic problem resolves itself. CalAuctions has pretty much the same approach; any bid during the last minute of the auction extends the auction by another minute. Spectrum will accept bids after the bell if their site becomes overloaded.

It’s seems pretty clear to me that WB doesn’t have it together in multiple respects. Oh, well. There are plenty of other sites to list and shop on.

[Michael Martin]

This just in...the Indianapolis 500 is now the Indianapolis 500.5.

[ybarselah]

there's only one person on this thread that theoretically knows how this will work. that person posted some of what he knows, but wants you to reserve judgment on the rest of it because...reasons. the internet is weird.

[HoosJustinG]

Agreed that a “going live feature” at auction ending is likely to actually improve the experience AND maximize hammer prices on certain lots. Probably a bigger IT lift, though.

The real “goal” here seems to be minimizing lots selling below market price. That’s clearly in the best interest of not only WB but also their sellers, but it kinda craps on the reason lots of folks like online auctions — the ability to throw a minimum reserve bid out there and maybe get lucky. If the pool of buyers decreases, does that shift the demand curve enough to balance out the potential bump on the most competitive lots? Guess we’ll find out based on whether or not the new feature sticks.

[Ian S]

Luckily, there are a hatful of other places to buy wine. WineBid's final cost was close to the same amount of dosh on WineSearcher already, and now there's a chance to jack it up even more. No thank you.

[Vic G]

Wow--this sounds great. For WineBid, that is.

[Brian G r a f s t r o m]

This feature is definitely needed if the site is overloaded and timely bids are being rejected. That final minute is when competitive lots reach their market price. If bids aren’t being taken, it’s not an auction.

Adding 10 minutes will just shift that "final minute" to 10 minutes later, where the same problem will still exist (assuming it was happening in the first place).

I agree they are headed the wrong direction with this but it’s also the case that as the price goes up, the number of bidders will decrease and the traffic problem resolves itself. CalAuctions has pretty much the same approach; any bid during the last minute of the auction extends the auction by another minute. Spectrum will accept bids after the bell if their site becomes overloaded.

It’s seems pretty clear to me that WB doesn’t have it together in multiple respects. Oh, well. There are plenty of other sites to list and shop on.

An auction company's job, in part, is to maximize hammer price; I don't hold it against WineBid that they would try to do that. It just seems to me the best way to do that would be adding 30 seconds, or a minute, to the bidding every time a bid comes-in in the last 30 seconds or minute. This is, essentially, how live auctions work (i.e.: "going once, going twice, Ahhh, we have a new bid! Now we're at $__. Going once, going twice ... sold!).

As for the "decreased number of bidders" argument: Yes. The number of bidders will decrease by the number who only want to participate in auctions where sniping is allowed. I know many folks like sniping. I sometimes do it myself. It's exciting. But if there's a wine I want, there's a price I'm willing to pay, and I'll bid up to that price regardless of whether the format does or does not allow for sniping.

Sniping only works when the bidding is between snipers.

[Dave McIsaac]

Russ is getting beaten up pretty well, but he "likes" many of those posts.......

[Jen M a s o n]

Not a fan. Echoing previous comments. And it is already late enough on a ‘school night’ on the east coast...

[Guest]

As someone with lots of bottles in the current auction, I'm very curious to see how much bidding changes prices (and the number of contested lots) in the last hour and minutes of the auction. That will give me a better sense of how common sniping is.

If Winebid changes the rules of the auction in a way that reduces the number of bidders, prices for sellers could fall relative to other sources. Way too early to say.

[JMReuter]

As someone with lots of bottles in the current auction, I'm very curious to see how much bidding changes prices (and the number of contested lots) in the last hour and minutes of the auction. That will give me a better sense of how common sniping is.

If Winebid changes the rules of the auction in a way that reduces the number of bidders, prices for sellers could fall relative to other sources. Way too early to say.

My post. Thought I was logged in...

[Brian G r a f s t r o m]

That's weird ... are posts by "Guest" now allowed? That must be a bug.

[Cris Whetstone]

I don't really see how this is about sniping. Not at all. It's about having a time when a transaction will end. The sniping is just people coming in at the end. Sniping has nothing materially to do with how the auction is executed.

What's at issue is that we know when an auction will end and we know it's on us to get in there or not if we want action. Now there is some other mysterious possibly end time that may or may not show up. So we have a transaction that will occur at the listed time or it might occur at another time. Do we have any control over it? Do we have any say in it if we want to do business there? Does my bid mean anything or is it subject to an algorithm that will shrug at it?

First world problems for certain but it feels like yet one more annoyance in life we could do without. What percentage of the customer base is really clamoring for this?

[Rodrigo B]

I'll wait to see how it's executed before casting judgement, but as a practical matter will people's max bids on lots carry over into this overtime bidding, or will it only be for people participating during that period? For example, if a lot's current winning bid $50 and I set a max bid at $70, will that $70 bid continue to hold for that extended period if participants post 7pm bid higher than $50?

[Brian G r a f s t r o m]

I'll wait to see how it's executed before casting judgement, but as a practical matter will people's max bids on lots carry over into this overtime bidding, or will it only be for people participating during that period? For example, if a lot's current winning bid $50 and I set a max bid at $70, will that $70 bid continue to hold for that extended period if participants post 7pm bid higher than $50?

I assume folks' max bids will carry-over into this Overtime period. If they don't that really defies logic.

[Brian G r a f s t r o m]

I don't really see how this is about sniping. Not at all. It's about having a time when a transaction will end. The sniping is just people coming in at the end. Sniping has nothing materially to do with how the auction is executed.

What's at issue is that we know when an auction will end and we know it's on us to get in there or not if we want action. Now there is some other mysterious possibly end time that may or may not show up. So we have a transaction that will occur at the listed time or it might occur at another time. Do we have any control over it? Do we have any say in it if we want to do business there? Does my bid mean anything or is it subject to an algorithm that will shrug at it?

First world problems for certain but it feels like yet one more annoyance in life we could do without. What percentage of the customer base is really clamoring for this?

*Is* it really important to know *exactly* when an auction is going to end? It sounds like the answer, as of now, is "either at the set time or 10 minutes thereafter." Is that really a PITA?

Now, if one goes with the idea I support, then the time the auction ends really is unknown, and I can very much see how that would disadvantage east coast buyers, as snipers could slowly bid a lot up, one bid per minute, driving east coast buyers out of the action on account of wanting to go to bed. But, really, how many extra minutes would this result in? An extra hour would necessarily mean *at least* 60 additional bids placed after the penultimate minute of the previously-arranged auction end time. How many lots garner that much action? Not many.

[Cris Whetstone]

That's sort of it though isn't it? Bid your max. Snipers are irrelevant if you do that. I am arguing there is no sniping in online auctions because of that. You can set a max that is greater than the current bid. No one can snipe you other than people who are willing to pay MORE than your max. You didn't get sniped, you lost to someone willing to pay more. Why do we need ten more minutes to figure that out? Will we need an additional ten in some cases? What need is this serving?

[Glen Gold]

That's sort of it though isn't it? Bid your max. Snipers are irrelevant if you do that. I am arguing there is no sniping in online auctions because of that. You can set a max that is greater than the current bid. No one can snipe you other than people who are willing to pay MORE than your max. You didn't get sniped, you lost to someone willing to pay more. Why do we need ten more minutes to figure that out? Will we need an additional ten in some cases? What need is this serving?

I think there's a difference - though logically there shouldn't be - between putting your max bid in six days before the auction ends versus one minute. Six days gives other bidders a lot of time to wonder if they would bid higher or not. Turns out some folks don't actually have a specific number in mind, just "if someone else is bidding this high six days out, surely it's worth more."

[Rodrigo B]

I don't really see how this is about sniping. Not at all. It's about having a time when a transaction will end. The sniping is just people coming in at the end. Sniping has nothing materially to do with how the auction is executed.

What's at issue is that we know when an auction will end and we know it's on us to get in there or not if we want action. Now there is some other mysterious possibly end time that may or may not show up. So we have a transaction that will occur at the listed time or it might occur at another time. Do we have any control over it? Do we have any say in it if we want to do business there? Does my bid mean anything or is it subject to an algorithm that will shrug at it?

First world problems for certain but it feels like yet one more annoyance in life we could do without. What percentage of the customer base is really clamoring for this?

*Is* it really important to know *exactly* when an auction is going to end? It sounds like the answer, as of now, is "either at the set time or 10 minutes thereafter." Is that really a PITA?

Now, if one goes with the idea I support, then the time the auction ends really is unknown, and I can very much see how that would disadvantage east coast buyers, as snipers could slowly bid a lot up, one bid per minute, driving east coast buyers out of the action on account of wanting to go to bed. But, really, how many extra minutes would this result in? An extra hour would necessarily mean *at least* 60 additional bids placed after the penultimate minute of the previously-arranged auction end time. How many lots garner that much action? Not many.

My concern over it is slightly different.

I'm not a fan of staggered closes on auction lots.

I may be tracking several wines and bidding on a few that I find the most competitively priced. If I'm priced out of some of those, I may chose to start bidding on other lots I'm following that are still competitively priced.

Staggered auction lots fundamentally prevent me from doing that as a lot I may have chosen to bid on may have already closed. As a more concrete example, say I'm following 3 lots, lot A, lot B, and lot C priced at 50, 100, and 150 respectively . I may only bid on lots A and C, but if close to auction close the price of lot C hits $300, I may chose to no longer bid on that and bid on just lots A and B now. Under the new bidding, if lot B isn't driven into extended bidding time, I wouldn't be able to shift my spending $.

[Alan Rath]

What about implementing the “going once..twice...” minute? If someone bids at 6:59.30...it triggers a going once..twice..minute to bid. Continues until no more bids after the extended minute(s).

I personally like it the way it is...I think snipping is FUN!

He did say “up to” 10 minutes.

As someone who has lately been more of a seller than a buyer, I’m all for it.

[Cris Whetstone]

Similar to what Rodrigo is pointing out I think this mainly enables whales to roll in a take more than they might if just hunting and pecking normally. Getting that nice catch will become that much harder if more people get more chances.

But then again, nice finds are becoming harder to come by on WineBid these days. This might just send it closer to being just another retail stop.

[Rich Brown]

What about implementing the “going once..twice...” minute? If someone bids at 6:59.30...it triggers a going once..twice..minute to bid. Continues until no more bids after the extended minute(s).

I personally like it the way it is...I think snipping is FUN!

He did say “up to” 10 minutes.

As someone who has lately been more of a seller than a buyer, I’m all for it.

As you should be! Unless I'm completely missing something, this model clearly favors sellers and Winebid.

[Alan Rath]

What we all want, from a buyer’s perspective, is more sellers. The more wine in an auction, the better your chances of winning what you want, or finding something under the radar you’re interested in. As a seller, i love this idea. People with multiple bids that end up being outbid on some things might be more inclined to go after some bottles at a higher price than they would otherwise have been willing.

Winebid needs a balance between attracting sellers and buyers, let’s wait and see how this impacts both. They will of course know the answer, and adjust accordingly.

[Patrick T a y l o r]

It took me a while, but I finally realized there's always going to be another offer.

I have 9 or 10 bottles currently at Winebid. I have a few more weeks before I'll get charged for storage. If I fill the case, I fill it. If I don't, I don't.