#rieslingstudy - Age your Kabinetts!

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#rieslingstudy - Age your Kabinetts!

#1 Post by Robert Dentice »

I went through a two week period of drinking a lot of the wines we offered in the source | material Keller Golden Generation pack so I did not post on them.

Some recent bottles of note.


2016 Keller Absterde (Magnum) - Very regal and polished. So much depth and complexity. Definitely better on day two but still a tad closed. This needs some time and is a bit young. Overall I enjoyed it and could not pass it up at well below retail on a restaurant list.


1987 Selbach-Oster Wehlener Sonnenuhr Kabinett - What an incredible wine. I am guessing this might have been a library release. This was extremely fresh and complex. It had the spice notes I love in older Riesling, petrol and lots of energy. I LOVED this wine. And it was a stunning pairing with my wife's Hanniese Chicken. Overall a great Sunday! My biggest wine regret was not buying Kabinett by the truck load to age...


2009 Lauer Ayler Kupp Stirn Fab 19 - Well well well this has aged beautifully. Much more like an older Auslese than a Feinherb. Opened this for the Flatiron IG Live with Florian. Saved some for the aforementioned Hanniese Chicken and it also went well. I am so happy I have a lot of older Lauers from the Florian period. Also for those newer to German wine and know of Falkenstein, Lauer was originally imported into the U.S. by Mosel Wine Merchant which was run by Lars Carlberg (of Falkenstein) and Dan Melia who left wine long ago and is now a teacher. The Mosel Wine Merchant made up the core of the initial Vom Boden Portfolio and was one of the greatest portfolios every assembled in any region. It is always a nice memory to open a bottle with the MWM back label!


2019 Ulli Stein Blauschiefer Unfiltered Low Sulpher - This is the "natural" wine like version of the straight 2019 Blauschiefer which was one of my favorite wines of 2020. This is cloudy and savory with all the energy and tension of the straight Blauschiefer but it is even more savory and refreshing on the palate in a different way. It is also a great food pairing wine that we enjoyed with a Fish Fry from Dame. Incidentally Dame's Friday and Saturday Fish Frys are amazing, and I come from the land of the Friday Night Fish Fry. I have my doubts about natural Riesling and most disappoint but not this one! (BTW Ulli Stein was also originally a MWM import!)

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Re: #rieslingstudy - Age your Kabinetts!

#2 Post by D@vid Bu3ker »

Kabinett with 20 or more years of age is a rare treat. It’s too easy to slurp them all down at release. 33 is longer than I might have hoped for with an ‘87. Glad it showed so well.

Given the sheer size of so many modern kabinetts, I have to think that 30 is the low end of potential longevity from a good producer.
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Re: #rieslingstudy - Age your Kabinetts!

#3 Post by John Morris »

Robert Dentice wrote: February 22nd, 2021, 4:28 am .... My biggest wine regret was not buying Kabinett by the truck load to age...
Tied for me with not buying Dom. Tempier for about 20 years, but I agree. I have way too much Spatlese and Auslese relative to my Kabinett holdings, and it's the Kabinetts that I find myself reaching for.
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Re: #rieslingstudy - Age your Kabinetts!

#4 Post by Robert Dentice »

John Morris wrote: February 22nd, 2021, 6:37 am
Robert Dentice wrote: February 22nd, 2021, 4:28 am .... My biggest wine regret was not buying Kabinett by the truck load to age...
Tied for me with not buying Dom. Tempier for about 20 years, but I agree. I have way too much Spatlese and Auslese relative to my Kabinett holdings, and it's the Kabinetts that I find myself reaching for.
So true on an overweighting on Auslese and above.
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Re: #rieslingstudy - Age your Kabinetts!

#5 Post by Brian S t o t t e r »

I've been buying bigger quantities of my favorite kabinetts and and feinherb/halbtrocken in general because I have a hard time keeping my hands off them when young.
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Re: #rieslingstudy - Age your Kabinetts!

#6 Post by D@vid Bu3ker »

Brian S t o t t e r wrote: February 22nd, 2021, 9:11 am I've been buying bigger quantities of my favorite kabinetts and and feinherb/halbtrocken in general because I have a hard time keeping my hands off them when young.
Feinherb has become the #1 category for Riesling consumption at Schloss Bueker.
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Re: #rieslingstudy - Age your Kabinetts!

#7 Post by John Morris »

D@vid Bu3ker wrote: February 22nd, 2021, 9:22 am
Brian S t o t t e r wrote: February 22nd, 2021, 9:11 am I've been buying bigger quantities of my favorite kabinetts and and feinherb/halbtrocken in general because I have a hard time keeping my hands off them when young.
Feinherb has become the #1 category for Riesling consumption at Schloss Bueker.
That's interesting. I understand completely. I remember my first experience with a Feinherb was at Karthäuserhof in 2003. Christoph Tyrell said that he assumed that, as an American, I would have no interest in the dry wines. I said that, no, I was very interested to try them. He was taken aback. What I remember best was the Feinherb, which I loved. In those days, they were nearly impossible to find in the US.
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Re: #rieslingstudy - Age your Kabinetts!

#8 Post by Sarah Kirschbaum »

We've always said you can never have too much feinherb. I've noticed that, probably because of our aversion to sugar, everything skews down the sweetness scale in the Kirschbaum/Read household. Where most people would go for a spatlese, we're looking kabinett etc. We opened one bottle of auslese last year, and nothing sweeter.

That said, even not having fallen into the too-much-spat/aus-trap, I still wish we had more kabinett.
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Re: #rieslingstudy - Age your Kabinetts!

#9 Post by Brian S t o t t e r »

I still love the noble sweet wines. I just don't find as many opportunities to open them, and outside of spicy foods and some roasted meat dishes or cheese I find less opportunity to pair them with meals than kabinett or off-dry riesling.
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Re: #rieslingstudy - Age your Kabinetts!

#10 Post by D@vid Bu3ker »

Brian S t o t t e r wrote: February 22nd, 2021, 10:16 am I still love the noble sweet wines. I just don't find as many opportunities to open them, and outside of spicy foods and some roasted meat dishes or cheese I find less opportunity to pair them with meals than kabinett or off-dry riesling.
We have taken to opening them on Saturday afternoons while we watch a movie or a game.
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Re: #rieslingstudy - Age your Kabinetts!

#11 Post by Brian G r a f s t r o m »

Do Kabinett, Spatlese, and Auslese all converge with age (even if on different timelines)?
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Re: #rieslingstudy - Age your Kabinetts!

#12 Post by Robert Dentice »

I agree on Feinherb and such fantastic values as I don't feel the broader market understands them.
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Re: #rieslingstudy - Age your Kabinetts!

#13 Post by Chris Seiber »

D@vid Bu3ker wrote: February 22nd, 2021, 5:57 am Kabinett with 20 or more years of age is a rare treat. It’s too easy to slurp them all down at release.
I care more about age than producer and vintage, to be honest. I'd much rather have a $20 90 point kabinett at age 20 than a $50 95 point spatlese when it's young. So in a sense, I'm lucky that I'm not especially tempted to drink them when are young.

Of course, not every producer, bottling and vintage age the same, but the odds are really pretty high overall.

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Re: #rieslingstudy - Age your Kabinetts!

#14 Post by D@vid Bu3ker »

Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote: February 22nd, 2021, 12:02 pm Do Kabinett, Spatlese, and Auslese all converge with age (even if on different timelines)?
In some senses yes, in others no. Not trying to be cagey/coy, but I often see high quality, older Rieslings that display a certain core "rieslingness." I first noticed it at a dinner where we drank a 1990 Trimbach CFE VT and a 1992 Donnhoff Niederhauser Hermannshohle Auslese. At the core they were the same wine. They had this identical base rieslingness that made it clear they were related, if not so close as brothers. I have run into that core a number of times since then, and I have begun to feel that it is always there, just not always showing itself. It's happened with Kab, Spat and Auslese, as well as with dry German wines. I even noticed it in a young Desire Lines Cole Ranch Riesling that I had a few months ago. It was not so prominent, but in the background it was there, hiding behind the youthful fruit.

That being said, the wines all retained their own distinct character, but just had a core that said "I am riesling."
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Re: #rieslingstudy - Age your Kabinetts!

#15 Post by Sarah Kirschbaum »

Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote: February 22nd, 2021, 12:02 pm Do Kabinett, Spatlese, and Auslese all converge with age (even if on different timelines)?
Curious about what you mean, Brian. Do you mean converge in terms of sweetness? Quality? Characteristics becoming similar?
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Re: #rieslingstudy - Age your Kabinetts!

#16 Post by Brian G r a f s t r o m »

Thanks, David.

So, in your opinion, can one reasonably substitute a 20 yo Kab. for a 30 yo Spat.? Or is there enough difference to merit buying and ageing both?

Up to this point, I've not bought Kabinett with the intention of extended cellaring (except for one bottling, in particular, of which I've posted many times); seeing all the aged Kabi love here, however, I'm now re-thinking that.
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Re: #rieslingstudy - Age your Kabinetts!

#17 Post by Brian G r a f s t r o m »

Sarah Kirschbaum wrote: February 22nd, 2021, 2:11 pm
Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote: February 22nd, 2021, 12:02 pm Do Kabinett, Spatlese, and Auslese all converge with age (even if on different timelines)?
Curious about what you mean, Brian. Do you mean converge in terms of sweetness? Quality? Characteristics becoming similar?
Good question, Sarah. Frustratingly, I'm not sure I know the answer. [wow.gif]

Perhaps, to put it another way, I could ask: Does Kabinett of xx years old typically come across the same as a Spatlese of yy years old and/or an Auslese of zz years old?

Or, maybe to put it yet another way: Am I missing-out on anything if I were to only buy and age Kabinett to full maturity and completely forego buying and ageing Spatlese and Auslese? I know the respective journeys will be different -- I'm not asking about that; I'm more curious about their respective "final destinations," if you will.
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Re: #rieslingstudy - Age your Kabinetts!

#18 Post by Sarah Kirschbaum »

Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote: February 22nd, 2021, 2:15 pm
Sarah Kirschbaum wrote: February 22nd, 2021, 2:11 pm
Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote: February 22nd, 2021, 12:02 pm Do Kabinett, Spatlese, and Auslese all converge with age (even if on different timelines)?
Curious about what you mean, Brian. Do you mean converge in terms of sweetness? Quality? Characteristics becoming similar?
Good question, Sarah. Frustratingly, I'm not sure I know the answer. [wow.gif]

Perhaps, to put it another way, I could ask: Does Kabinett of xx years old typically come across the same as a Spatlese of yy years old and/or an Auslese of zz years old?

Or, maybe to put it yet another way: Am I missing-out on anything if I were to only buy and age Kabinett to full maturity and completely forego buying and ageing Spatlese and Auslese? I know the respective journeys will be different -- I'm not asking about that; I'm more curious about their respective "final destinations," if you will.
I think I understand what you're getting at. I don't think they do converge, in that sense. The original material stamps the wine in an indelible way, I think, though I'd be hard pressed to describe exactly what that way is. I'm sure others who have more experience with the sweeter styles would have much more to say.
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Re: #rieslingstudy - Age your Kabinetts!

#19 Post by Brian G r a f s t r o m »

Sounds like you're receiving my question in the manner I was hoping it would be received, Sarah. Curious to see what others have to say, too!
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Re: #rieslingstudy - Age your Kabinetts!

#20 Post by P@u1_M3nk3s »

Brian, I think the best way to think about this is that a 30 year Auslese will still be a sweet wine, and a 20 year old Kabi should be a less sweet tasting wine than a 30 year Auslese. Should. :)
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Re: #rieslingstudy - Age your Kabinetts!

#21 Post by D@vid Bu3ker »

Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote: February 22nd, 2021, 2:12 pm Thanks, David.

So, in your opinion, can one reasonably substitute a 20 yo Kab. for a 30 yo Spat.? Or is there enough difference to merit buying and ageing both?

Up to this point, I've not bought Kabinett with the intention of extended cellaring (except for one bottling, in particular, of which I've posted many times); seeing all the aged Kabi love here, however, I'm now re-thinking that.
I don't see them as interchangeable, merely as having similar base states, upon which the wine is built.

Regarding Kabinett, remember that today's Kabinett is normally what was yesterday's Spatlese, so the ageability is likely further enhanced.
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Re: #rieslingstudy - Age your Kabinetts!

#22 Post by Sarah Kirschbaum »

Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote: February 22nd, 2021, 2:40 pm Sounds like you're receiving my question in the manner I was hoping it would be received, Sarah. Curious to see what others have to say, too!
To add a bit - I think that spatlese, auslese, kabinett have not only different levels of RS, they have different textures, structures and shapes, if that makes sense. Those elements, in my experience, tend to give the wines unique character beyond simply more or less perceived sweetness.
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Re: #rieslingstudy - Age your Kabinetts!

#23 Post by Rodrigo B »

Sarah Kirschbaum wrote: February 22nd, 2021, 2:50 pm
Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote: February 22nd, 2021, 2:40 pm Sounds like you're receiving my question in the manner I was hoping it would be received, Sarah. Curious to see what others have to say, too!
To add a bit - I think that spatlese, auslese, kabinett have not only different levels of RS, they have different textures, structures and shapes, if that makes sense. Those elements, in my experience, tend to give the wines unique character beyond simply more or less perceived sweetness.
Weight to me is the biggest difference as you move across the pradikats scale as you age them. To me, an auslese just feels feels heavier and bigger on the palate than a spatlese or kabinett, no matter how much you age (or not) any of these, I feel like they always have that fundamental weight/characteristic to each.
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Re: #rieslingstudy - Age your Kabinetts!

#24 Post by R. Frankel »

I blame many of you but I’ve come around to just buying a lot more Kabinett - some to drink now in their bright intense flush of youth, and some to age. I like both states.

Last year I tasted a few 2017 Kabinetts vs their 2001 counterparts (Fritz Haag, Willi Schaefer and JJ Prüm). Yes they age beautifully, and those 2001s I’d bet will continue to evolve. Sadly I just have one left, have to keep my hands off it for a bit.
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Re: #rieslingstudy - Age your Kabinetts!

#25 Post by Rodrigo B »

R. Frankel wrote: February 22nd, 2021, 3:03 pm I blame many of you but I’ve come around to just buying a lot more Kabinett - some to drink now in their bright intense flush of youth, and some to age. I like both states.

Last year I tasted a few 2017 Kabinetts vs their 2001 counterparts (Fritz Haag, Willi Schaefer and JJ Prüm). Yes they age beautifully, and those 2001s I’d bet will continue to evolve. Sadly I just have one left, have to keep my hands off it for a bit.
Brian seems to have found an easy solution [snort.gif]

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Re: #rieslingstudy - Age your Kabinetts!

#26 Post by Brian G r a f s t r o m »

Sarah Kirschbaum wrote: February 22nd, 2021, 2:50 pm
Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote: February 22nd, 2021, 2:40 pm Sounds like you're receiving my question in the manner I was hoping it would be received, Sarah. Curious to see what others have to say, too!
To add a bit - I think that spatlese, auslese, kabinett have not only different levels of RS, they have different textures, structures and shapes, if that makes sense. Those elements, in my experience, tend to give the wines unique character beyond simply more or less perceived sweetness.
That does make sense, Sarah, and is exactly what I was trying to get at.

I frequently read that all sweet Rieslings "dry out" with age, which, in the context of this "age your Kabinetts" thread, got me wondering if there's even a point to aging Spatlese and Auslese, if all you care about is the "dried out" "final destination."
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Re: #rieslingstudy - Age your Kabinetts!

#27 Post by Ron Slye »

This is a fascinating discussion. Let me ask if this is an apt analogy. Think of a Cab Sauv wine (let's just do California for ease of discussion) -- both a regular bottling and a Reserve. They are both Cab Sauv. Both (lets assume) from the same vineyard. And both have the same winemaker. I would assume that there is unlikely to be a one to one match of those wines at any point in their life. In other words, I would assume that a ten year old regular bottling would not be the same as the Reserve at, say, 30 years.

I am not as knowledgeable about German Riesling, but I think I am right that the same producer approaches how they pick and process a Kabinett differently than a Spatlese, than an Auslese, etc.

Now I guess if the question is how sweet a wine tastes, then maybe there is a time period when an older Auslese is at the same level as a younger Kabinet (?). But my guess is that there will be other attributes/subtleties that will make someone say that the one is better than the other.

Curious whether any of what I say above makes sense. Or even if it makes sense, if it approximates something true and real. :-)

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Re: #rieslingstudy - Age your Kabinetts!

#28 Post by Rodrigo B »

Ron Slye wrote: February 22nd, 2021, 3:16 pm This is a fascinating discussion. Let me ask if this is an apt analogy. Think of a Cab Sauv wine (let's just do California for ease of discussion) -- both a regular bottling and a Reserve. They are both Cab Sauv. Both (lets assume) from the same vineyard. And both have the same winemaker. I would assume that there is unlikely to be a one to one match of those wines at any point in their life. In other words, I would assume that a ten year old regular bottling would not be the same as the Reserve at, say, 30 years.

I am not as knowledgeable about German Riesling, but I think I am right that the same producer approaches how they pick and process a Kabinett differently than a Spatlese, than an Auslese, etc.

Now I guess if the question is how sweet a wine tastes, then maybe there is a time period when an older Auslese is at the same level as a younger Kabinet (?). But my guess is that there will be other attributes/subtleties that will make someone say that the one is better than the other.

Curious whether any of what I say above makes sense. Or even if it makes sense, if it approximates something true and real. :-)
In terms of pure perceptible sweetness, you can probably open an aged spatlese or auslese that would taste as “sweet” as a younger kabinett. However that spatlese or auslese is both going to texturally feel different in the mouth, as well as it’ll have developed more tertiary flavours and aromas from ageing. So while they may be perceived as being equally “sweet,” they will both smell, taste and feel like completely different wines.
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Re: #rieslingstudy - Age your Kabinetts!

#29 Post by D@vid Bu3ker »

Ron Slye wrote: February 22nd, 2021, 3:16 pm I am not as knowledgeable about German Riesling, but I think I am right that the same producer approaches how they pick and process a Kabinett differently than a Spatlese, than an Auslese, etc.

Now I guess if the question is how sweet a wine tastes, then maybe there is a time period when an older Auslese is at the same level as a younger Kabinet (?). But my guess is that there will be other attributes/subtleties that will make someone say that the one is better than the other.

Curious whether any of what I say above makes sense. Or even if it makes sense, if it approximates something true and real. :-)
The picks are certainly different, and it’s even in the names, as Spatlese speaks to late harvest, and Auslese speaks to selected harvest. It’s not always done that way, but the intent is there. Beyond that the wines are often “processed” the same way, but there ends up with a different end point in terms of residual sugar. Of course even within the expected levels for the three types there is wild variance between producers, and vintages and/or vineyards for the same producer.

In general a Spatlese starts out as a riper wine than a Kabinett, and an Auslese is riper still. This leads to different flavor expressions, as well as textures, and those things, apart from sugars, are what keep the wines from completely converging over time. Throw in a little botrytis with an Auslese or even a Spatlese, and the differences become even more pronounced.
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Re: #rieslingstudy - Age your Kabinetts!

#30 Post by Andy Sc »

I'll jump at a chance of asking the Rieslings experts in this discussion. What is the difference between a Kabinett and Grosses Gewächs? Definition-wise but especially in terms ageing/development and ageability.
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Re: #rieslingstudy - Age your Kabinetts!

#31 Post by D@vid Bu3ker »

Andy Sc wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 12:34 am I'll jump at a chance of asking the Rieslings experts in this discussion. What is the difference between a Kabinett and Grosses Gewächs? Definition-wise but especially in terms ageing/development and ageability.
OK, I'll jump in to start it.

Kabinett and Grosses Gewachs are very different things. Kabinett is generally a wine with some degree of sweetness, though if the bottle also says trocken (dry), halbtrocken (off-dry) or feinherb (nebulous, but more in the off-dry genre) then it won't be particularly sweet. Grosses Gewachs (GG) is intended to be a dry wine, and also with a higher degree of ripeness than would be typical for Kabinett. That being said, GG can have some residual sugar, but is intended to taste dry. Some folks find that GG wines still seem sweet to them, while many others do not. Given the acidity in most German Riesling, a little residual sugar isn't a big deal.

Confused yet?

GG is required to be at least spatlese ripeness, and so when it ferments dry you will see wines with 12-14% alcohol. Kabinett typically runs in the 8-9% alcohol range (pre climate change impacts there were plenty below 8%), though trocken examples can be in the 11-12% range. This is of course generalization, and exceptions abound.

As for aging, Kabinett has been discussed in some detail above. GG wines are still a bit of an unknown, as they did not specifically exist before this century. People were making dry wines, but not specifically with the GG imprint. That being said, there is no reason that a good GG won't age gracefully for years and years. Not too many months ago I opened a 2001 Donnhoff Felsenberg Spatlese Trocken (essentially what became a GG a few years later), and it was in the prime of life, and drop-dead gorgeous. It had loads of life left at nearly 20 years past the vintage. Dry German Riesling from the 1990s still provides great pleasure if you pick the right wines. The level of dry Riesling produced in Germany has risen so much in the last 10-15 years that it's really a much bigger field of fine wines to choose from.

There's tons more to say, but that's all I have time to type right now.
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Re: #rieslingstudy - Age your Kabinetts!

#32 Post by LoriMcLaughlin »

John Morris wrote: February 22nd, 2021, 6:37 am
I have way too much Spatlese and Auslese relative to my Kabinett holdings, and it's the Kabinetts that I find myself reaching for.
Ditto - reaching more for Kabinett, trocken, or Feinherb.

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Re: #rieslingstudy - Age your Kabinetts!

#33 Post by Robert Panzer »

I luckily have and continue to plan for Kabinett centric ageing, regularly bringing in Magnums of Kabinett more than any other pradikat level. I went gonzo big on the '19 Richter range, as he made an outstanding range, once again. I find the charm, versatility and appetizing qualities of Kabinett to be a sweet spot for me (no pun intended).
I also adore Feinherb wines, a particularly versatile netherworld between dry and off dry that deserves far more consumer love. Part of the problem is just the unfamiliarity among consumers, which is part of the whole discourse of German wines' marketing challenges.
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Re: #rieslingstudy - Age your Kabinetts!

#34 Post by Brian S t o t t e r »

Robert Panzer wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 3:02 pm I luckily have and continue to plan for Kabinett centric ageing, regularly bringing in Magnums of Kabinett more than any other pradikat level. I went gonzo big on the '19 Richter range, as he made an outstanding range, once again. I find the charm, versatility and appetizing qualities of Kabinett to be a sweet spot for me (no pun intended).
I also adore Feinherb wines, a particularly versatile netherworld between dry and off dry that deserves far more consumer love. Part of the problem is just the unfamiliarity among consumers, which is part of the whole discourse of German wines' marketing challenges.
Have you now tried the 2019 Richter wines since they've arrived? Eagerly awaiting my 3 cases :D
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Re: #rieslingstudy - Age your Kabinetts!

#35 Post by D@vid Bu3ker »

Brian S t o t t e r wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 5:29 pm
Robert Panzer wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 3:02 pm I luckily have and continue to plan for Kabinett centric ageing, regularly bringing in Magnums of Kabinett more than any other pradikat level. I went gonzo big on the '19 Richter range, as he made an outstanding range, once again. I find the charm, versatility and appetizing qualities of Kabinett to be a sweet spot for me (no pun intended).
I also adore Feinherb wines, a particularly versatile netherworld between dry and off dry that deserves far more consumer love. Part of the problem is just the unfamiliarity among consumers, which is part of the whole discourse of German wines' marketing challenges.
Have you now tried the 2019 Richter wines since they've arrived? Eagerly awaiting my 3 cases :D
Well at least someone ordered more than I did.
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Re: #rieslingstudy - Age your Kabinetts!

#36 Post by Brian S t o t t e r »

D@vid Bu3ker wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 6:13 pm
Brian S t o t t e r wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 5:29 pm
Robert Panzer wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 3:02 pm I luckily have and continue to plan for Kabinett centric ageing, regularly bringing in Magnums of Kabinett more than any other pradikat level. I went gonzo big on the '19 Richter range, as he made an outstanding range, once again. I find the charm, versatility and appetizing qualities of Kabinett to be a sweet spot for me (no pun intended).
I also adore Feinherb wines, a particularly versatile netherworld between dry and off dry that deserves far more consumer love. Part of the problem is just the unfamiliarity among consumers, which is part of the whole discourse of German wines' marketing challenges.
Have you now tried the 2019 Richter wines since they've arrived? Eagerly awaiting my 3 cases :D
Well at least someone ordered more than I did.
Can’t tell if I’m more excited to try the wines, or to cull my pending list by 20% once they arrive [wink.gif]
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Re: #rieslingstudy - Age your Kabinetts!

#37 Post by D@vid Bu3ker »

I went a little nutty. Besides a case of mixed Richter Kabinetts, I ordered 18 different bottles, to taste through the range. Most of those will be opened in the next several months.
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Re: #rieslingstudy - Age your Kabinetts!

#38 Post by Brian S t o t t e r »

I sense a zoom tasting is in order
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Re: #rieslingstudy - Age your Kabinetts!

#39 Post by Robert Dentice »

Robert Panzer wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 3:02 pm I luckily have and continue to plan for Kabinett centric ageing, regularly bringing in Magnums of Kabinett more than any other pradikat level. I went gonzo big on the '19 Richter range, as he made an outstanding range, once again. I find the charm, versatility and appetizing qualities of Kabinett to be a sweet spot for me (no pun intended).
I also adore Feinherb wines, a particularly versatile netherworld between dry and off dry that deserves far more consumer love. Part of the problem is just the unfamiliarity among consumers, which is part of the whole discourse of German wines' marketing challenges.
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Re: #rieslingstudy - Age your Kabinetts!

#40 Post by Andy Sc »

D@vid Bu3ker wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 6:01 am
Andy Sc wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 12:34 am I'll jump at a chance of asking the Rieslings experts in this discussion. What is the difference between a Kabinett and Grosses Gewächs? Definition-wise but especially in terms ageing/development and ageability.
OK, I'll jump in to start it.
Many thanks David, that's very helpful. I'm a Riesling newby but in the past 5 years bought every year a few bottles stash away those few exciting Rieslings I had, where with some age (10 to 25y). I always thought that GG is the best dry Riesling you could get out there and accordingly I focused on GGs (Dönnhoff, Keller, Schäfer Fröhlich, Kühn, Wittmann). Learning here that Kabinett have lower alcohol levels is very intriguing. I have to look into that and try some soon.

I think we all should be happy that the Germans are so crappy in marketing these wines with all their confusing levels. Otherwise the prices would be higher for the top wines.
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Re: #rieslingstudy - Age your Kabinetts!

#41 Post by Robert Dentice »

Andy Sc wrote: February 24th, 2021, 3:14 am
D@vid Bu3ker wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 6:01 am
Andy Sc wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 12:34 am I'll jump at a chance of asking the Rieslings experts in this discussion. What is the difference between a Kabinett and Grosses Gewächs? Definition-wise but especially in terms ageing/development and ageability.
OK, I'll jump in to start it.
Many thanks David, that's very helpful. I'm a Riesling newby but in the past 5 years bought every year a few bottles stash away those few exciting Rieslings I had, where with some age (10 to 25y). I always thought that GG is the best dry Riesling you could get out there and accordingly I focused on GGs (Dönnhoff, Keller, Schäfer Fröhlich, Kühn, Wittmann). Learning here that Kabinett have lower alcohol levels is very intriguing. I have to look into that and try some soon.

I think we all should be happy that the Germans are so crappy in marketing these wines with all their confusing levels. Otherwise the prices would be higher for the top wines.
No to further confuse you however if you like dry wines and like lower alcohol find some Kabinett Trocken. Similar to a GG but much lighter on its feet. A true wine geeks wine Weiser-Künstler makes a great one and the aforementioned Max Richter makes one that is $20.
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Re: #rieslingstudy - Age your Kabinetts!

#42 Post by Robert Panzer »

So far, just the Richter Wehlener Sonnenuhr kabi down the hatch. Gorgeous purity, seamlessness, and weightlessness, with tighter definition with extended aeration. I could smell the wine all day long.
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