Pinot: Rhys v. Rochioli v. Aubert v. CA Others v. Burgundy

I confess to having given up on red Burgundy because I simply can’t afford to spend $175 per bottle only to be borderline angered by 28% of them. I get that the ceiling is higher than any other ceiling (and I’ve had some of those), but man is the floor low and frequently hit and the per bottle cost relentlessly expensive and increasing (I remember getting good vintages of d’Angerville Taillepieds for $65 fifteen years ago – that was great! – sadly, those have been consumed). I don’t have C-suite/pro athlete money.

I also realize that California Pinot Noirs are only so much of a substitute for “the real thing.” That vanilla/cherry coke taste of a better 7-year-old Williams Selyem Riverblock, while quite delicious in its own way, is never going to be mistaken for Clos Vougeot (which, in the case of about half the Clos Vougeot I’ve had, is a good thing for the W-S!).

My question is to those with the patience/budget/experience to be serious Burgundy drinkers but who also drink California Pinots.

What California Pinot Noir gets you excited as either a SUBSTITUTE for Burgundy (i.e. “It’s Burgundian!”) or a COMPLEMENT (i.e. “It’s clearly not Burgundy, but I love it”)?

Since moving back to the US in 2014 after 8 years away and forswearing Burgundy around that time, I’ve amassed 40+ bottle holdings each of Aubert and Rhys and similarly replenished my depleted Rochioli supply (long-time list member there). I’ve opened very few of them yet. I’m particularly curious on thoughts on these producers, but I’d be curious to know what other domestic producers I should be looking at, especially in light of these three being far and away my cellar’s anchor Pinot Noir tenants (close to 90%).

My prejudices at the moment: Rochioli single-vineyard bottlings have a very, very high “floor.” I’m basically never disappointed and frequently damn pleased. Aubert has a pretty broad range of outcomes. I haven’t opened any of my fancy Rhys but the Bearwallows have been “yep, that’s worth almost exactly the $60 I paid for it.”

Finally, since my wife and I are “only” going to drink +/- 180 bottles per year and I love all sorts of white wines, Barolo, Brunello, Bordeaux, Rioja and Champagne, there’s no point in trying to persuade me that my life is incomplete without Jayer Cros Parentoux in it. That ship has sailed.

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Why only CA and not Oregon?

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A couple that I recommend sampling are Domaine de la Cote and Ceritas. Domaine de la Cote is masterminded by Rajat Parr, former Somm. at RN74 in San Francisco. He’s trying to make a US version of Burgundy in the Santa Rita Hills.

Rhys is the obvious one, and you are already on to those wines. I’m also a long time Rochioli buyer and find they are too sweet and ripe for me anymore. They are great for a party, but I never pull them for dinner.

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Not deliberately excluding them. I just know California better, but the question equally applies to Oregon, perhaps even moreso.

goodfellows and thomas make great pinots

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Try Raen, they make pinots in a burgundian style. Also try Occidental, the SWK and Running Fence.

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A few threads

In Oregon, I am a fan of the 2018 Goodfellow Whistling Ridge Heritage 12. Not a substitute, but a complement. And hits your QPR aspiration as they give a great discount for WB buyers if you email them directly. With Benchmark selling the '15 HN Vosne for nearly $100… this is a no brainer to try for nearly half the price. Also perhaps his Lewman for a darker signature? I also like the Thomas wines. I don’t view either as substitutes, but complements. Kelly Fox is another one with a light touch you may want to check out; I have not had any with age though and am curious. FWIW I tend to like less crunchy wines.

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Rochioli (love it), Rhys (like it) and Aubert (not fan but I like the chardonnay) are such wildly different styles of CA pinot that’s hard to make sense of a comparison between one another, much less to Burgundy.

My favorite CA pinot is Littorai, which is certainly made with Burgundian ideals but is very much Pacific coast pinot. A 10 year plus Littorai has a quite high “floor” indeed.

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Yes, there have been many threads on this. So I will just add - Littorai, yes, but especially the Anderson Valley bottlings (Savoy, Cerise, One Acre, Wendling, Roman). A complement to Burgundy. If you can find some with age at the odd auction site, they’re worth a try.

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Those threads were really helpful, thank you. Pretty intrigued about Goodfellow, looks like I need to call Marcus.
Have had some Cameron that I really liked as well.

Cristom in Oregon

we did a tasting blind with cristom and burgundy and even the lifelong burgophiles had trouble identifying

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I’d edit that statement IMO. I don’t think Cali is a substitute for “the Real Thing” honestly. They are two separate animals, please don’t confuse or mix them unfairly. To tread there would require a definition of what exactly “the real thing” is (and please don’t, it won’t end well on this board). Such a definition may insult quite a few folks here in the biz and do make great Pinot Noir which apparently is not “the real thing”, whatever that is.

I’ll get my popcorn out now as well.

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I totally understand your point and mean no insult. Hey, I’ve gone off “the real thing” entirely and spend at least $5,000 annually on California Pinot Noir, so my wallet’s certainly not insulting it!

All I really mean by “the real thing” is nothing more than “Old World” vs. “New World” – obviously the history of Burgundy is quite a bit longer and more storied than that of California Pinot. I really mean to imply nothing more than that.

Thx, and the Old World/New World thing is nothing new where. and still quite the raging discussion lol.

Semantics matter in that regard for the aforementioned reasons specifically and your re-statement helps.

Plus I get your aim. I love Burg but currently buy less for varying reasons. Cali (and Oregon and Wash.) have amazing producers making great juice. Some have an influence from Burg, some don’t. Ultimately they are their own thing in their own terroir and I love them for what they are. My cellar has moved 25% more US over the past 7 years for folks consistently making great wines that stand out. I’ll always keep some depth in Burg, however Cali and Oregon and WA, loving what’s coming out and its not just PN either.

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Have got to agree on this with regard to Rochioli. If you really want to puzzle it out ask the question why the old WS pinots have such a different flavor profile from the modern Rochioli pinots when the fruit often came from the same vineyard. The alcohol content of the modern Rochioli wines do tend to be a bit higher, and I have got to believe that ripeness is a big contributor. Would love to see what would happen if the RRV would find a way to dial back the alcohol a bit. Sometimes wonder if the fruit is “too perfect” at harvest and this tends to guarantee that “high floor” but the trade off is lack of complexity. Not a criticism, it is just perhaps a style choice.

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I’m pretty surprised that Kutch hasn’t gotten a mention. It’s got everything a Pinot could want. A new vintage is enjoyable opened tonight or 5-20 years from tonight especially the Mcdougall Vineyard. Oregon has so many dynamite pinots from Thomas, Arteberry Maresh, Goodfellow, Walter Scott, Vincent, Lingua Franca to name only a few. it’s an embarrassment of riches!

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Arcadian

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It is perhaps a little pedantic to reproach the questioner for not recognizing that West Coast Pinot Noirs and Burgundies are different wines. Of course they are. But any wine drinker who is not monomaniacal will want different styles of red in the cellar.

It is no challenge to fill many wine racks with robust reds that offer warmth and structure and intensity and a huge range of flavor profiles. That’s most of my cellar – Chianti and Bordeaux and California Cabernet and Gigondas and so on. (If my wife was in control of the cellar, everything would be in this category.) Many of these wines offer a tremendous amount of pleasure at semi-reasonable prices – $20-40 per bottle. (Two nights ago, for instance, we drank Chateau Joanin-Becot Castillon 2015 which is a striking bargain at $23.)

But I also want a range of lighter-bodied reds, perhaps more red-fruited than dark, that provide some acidic zing, and offer the prospect of an ethereal quality that I won’t otherwise find. When I start receiving e-mail offers for recent-vintage Bourgogne Rouge from a second-tier producer at $43, I am going to, like the original poster, start looking away from Burgundy to fill that space in my cellar. It is completely reasonable to ask for recommendations about how to fill that space.

One approach is to explore among the Pinot Noirs of the West Coast, and there have been many excellent suggestions here. Another approach is to look away from Pinot Noir – to Nebbiolo, for instance. Last weekend, we drank a Ferrando Carema White Label 2011 that had a profile very similar to Pinot Noir. The red wines of Jura are even further to the light-bodied end of the spectrum, and while they are not quite cheap, you can find many delicious examples for less than $40.

This is an important point in this discussion. Finding CA/OR Red Burgundy/Pinot Noir substitutes/complements in the $20-$40 range is going to be a challenge. Not impossible at all, but will require more than a little effort. Many of the names listed in this thread simply don’t have wines in this price range. Or if they do, you can only get to that price via buying on a list or being in a club and getting a discount.

A worthwhile effort, but looking outside of Pinot Noir will get you many more options. Jura was mentioned but France, northern Italy, southern Germany, etc. etc. all have many regions that produce food friendly, lighter bodied red wines. I was thinking specifically about the Loire and Beaujolais. But others on this site can name many more regions/varieties. Of course it will take some effort and research, but that’s what we’re here for!

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