Let's Talk Rheingau

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Let's Talk Rheingau

#1 Post by K N Haque »

Ok, in the past few weeks we had a thread about the Nahe, which I found very helpful. I'd like to know people's opinions on the wineries of the Rheingau. The region gets a lots less attention here than MSR/Nahe/Rheinhessen(at least Keller). What wineries/wines are particularly good, what should one avoid?

I also admit that the VDP Rheingau auction thread inspired me to post this since one poster said there were no estates that interested him there (I haven't seen the auction catalog, so I don't know how broad the offerings are.

Personally, I have a sentimental spot for Robert Weil, since it was one of the bottles that introduced me to Riesling. I also know people have recommended Leitz, Eva Fricke and Schloss Johannisberg in other threads on Riesling. Thoughts/comments?
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Re: Let's Talk Rheingau

#2 Post by Russell Faulkner »

Breuer, and a little bit of Johannisberg. That’s it for me. Not a region I really follow at all (stylistic preference)
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Re: Let's Talk Rheingau

#3 Post by D@vid Bu3ker »

Lots of excellent producers in the Rheingau, just mostly not the historical estates of note.

Leitz, Spreitzer, and Weil are the ones I have the most of, but there are several others of note. Breuer and Kunstler are both excellent. August Kesseler makes some nice wines, though I have not had any in a few years.
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Re: Let's Talk Rheingau

#4 Post by Jason L. »

All of those named so far are great. I would add Peter Jakob Kuhn as essential.
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Re: Let's Talk Rheingau

#5 Post by dvansteenderen »

Let's not forget Peter Jakob Kühn!

And earlier mentioned:

Georg Breuer
Künstler
Leitz
Schloss Johannisberg (some of the portfolio)
Robert Weil

Have not tasted Eva Fricke yet...
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Re: Let's Talk Rheingau

#6 Post by K N Haque »

Thanks for the replies so far. I have enjoyed Peter Jakob Kühn's dry wines. I've never had any of the sweeter ones. I had forgotten about them!
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Re: Let's Talk Rheingau

#7 Post by Robert Dentice »

You can't talk about the Rheinghau without talking about the, OG, The Godfather Hans-Jospeh Becker (The estate name is JB Becker)

https://www.vomboden.com/growers/jb-becker/
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Re: Let's Talk Rheingau

#8 Post by Howard Cooper »

Not a fan of the Rheingau. It has many of the most famous vineyard sites in Germany and most of the wineries making wine from these sites have underperformed for a generation or more. There are a few excellent wineries in the region like Leitz, etc., but for the most part IMHO this is the most underperforming major wine region in the world these days. It is just a shame that unless you get to try older bottles we have not experienced what should be the top of this region in my wine buying lifetime.
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Re: Let's Talk Rheingau

#9 Post by dcornutt »

Robert Weil is my favorite I have had. Leitz, Kunstler, Breuer are fantastic. This is not an area that I collect however. I buy a few here and there. Interested in this thread. Thanks for the information.
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Re: Let's Talk Rheingau

#10 Post by D@vid Bu3ker »

Robert Dentice wrote: February 13th, 2021, 3:18 am You can't talk about the Rheinghau without talking about the, OG, The Godfather Hans-Jospeh Becker (The estate name is JB Becker)

https://www.vomboden.com/growers/jb-becker/
Very much a particular and acquired taste.
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Re: Let's Talk Rheingau

#11 Post by Robert Dentice »

D@vid Bu3ker wrote: February 13th, 2021, 7:16 am
Robert Dentice wrote: February 13th, 2021, 3:18 am You can't talk about the Rheinghau without talking about the, OG, The Godfather Hans-Jospeh Becker (The estate name is JB Becker)

https://www.vomboden.com/growers/jb-becker/
Very much a particular and acquired taste.
Oh come on David I 100% predicted this comment. I watched you comment on Keller over and over and then I saw you post that you have not had the wines in 10 years.

Tell me how many wines you have had from JB Becker from the last 5 vintages. And we all know your cellar is public and you seem to post quite a few wines that you drink. I don't see a single JB Becker wine in your cellar

I don't mind disagreeing on wines but I do think it is unfair to comment on wines you only have a vague familiarity with.
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Re: Let's Talk Rheingau

#12 Post by D@vid Bu3ker »

Ah the Keller issue. I stopped buying the wines because I didn't like them.

As for Becker, I was served some at tastings, and did not enjoy them enough to seek them out. I see you fawning over them, and knowing how divergent our palates clearly are, I continue to steer clear.
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Re: Let's Talk Rheingau

#13 Post by K N Haque »

Thanks, Robert for mentioning Becker. Like JP Kühn, I forgot him because I rarely see the wines in my market. What I have liked about them is that older releases are available and fairly priced. For someone with only a small cellar, it's a great way to try more aged riesling.
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Re: Let's Talk Rheingau

#14 Post by Robert Dentice »

D@vid Bu3ker wrote: February 13th, 2021, 7:53 am Ah the Keller issue. I stopped buying the wines because I didn't like them.

As for Becker, I was served some at tastings, and did not enjoy them enough to seek them out. I see you fawning over them, and knowing how divergent our palates clearly are, I continue to steer clear.
It is not just me who fawns over them. When Stephen started importing them to the U.S. almost every major sommelier in NYC flipped over them and immediately added them to their lists. The majority of the people I have poured them for fall in love with them. Not to mention he is a winemaker's winemaker and revered in Germany by his peers.

As for wines you don't like that is cool but I don't think it is fair to keep giving opinions on wines you have not tried recently. The Keller wines have changed a lot since you stopped buying them. As have the recent vintages of JB Becker. I would be absolutely shocked if you tried the 2015 JB Becker Jean Baptiste and did not like it.
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Re: Let's Talk Rheingau

#15 Post by Mattstolz »

i am curious about any reports on Eva Fricke. CT notes are generally really positive and the prices always are pretty attractive, but ive never tried them

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Re: Let's Talk Rheingau

#16 Post by Robert Dentice »

Mattstolz wrote: February 13th, 2021, 9:35 am i am curious about any reports on Eva Fricke. CT notes are generally really positive and the prices always are pretty attractive, but ive never tried them
I like the wines very much but can't say they are in my normal buying rotation. She just switched importers to The German Wine Collection and the prices are about to double. She trained at JB Becker before moving to Leitz and then on her own.
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Re: Let's Talk Rheingau

#17 Post by G. Curd »

This is a great topic. Thanks K N Haque and thanks to the usual suspects for all of the great information!
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Re: Let's Talk Rheingau

#18 Post by D@vid Bu3ker »

The thing about the Rheingau is all those great sites that are in the hands of under-performing producers. If only...
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Re: Let's Talk Rheingau

#19 Post by K N Haque »

D@vid Bu3ker wrote: February 13th, 2021, 10:44 am The thing about the Rheingau is all those great sites that are in the hands of under-performing producers. If only...
Well, this is one reason I started this trend. Wnever Rheingau is mentioned, people say it is underperforming. I am not expert enough to judge, though I will say some of the better Rieslings I have had have been from Rheingau, especially from Weil and PJ Kühn. I've also been disappointed by others, but that is true for most German regions for me, as well.

Why do people think the region underperforms? It is a matter of resting on one's laurels? If so, why doesn't MSR do that, since it is just as established historically as Rheingau. Is it simply that many of the estates, as far as I can tell, are larger in the Rheingau. I'm thankful for all the insight on this thread.
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Re: Let's Talk Rheingau

#20 Post by D@vid Bu3ker »

K N Haque wrote: February 13th, 2021, 1:18 pm
D@vid Bu3ker wrote: February 13th, 2021, 10:44 am The thing about the Rheingau is all those great sites that are in the hands of under-performing producers. If only...
Well, this is one reason I started this trend. Wnever Rheingau is mentioned, people say it is underperforming. I am not expert enough to judge, though I will say some of the better Rieslings I have had have been from Rheingau, especially from Weil and PJ Kühn. I've also been disappointed by others, but that is true for most German regions for me, as well.

Why do people think the region underperforms? It is a matter of resting on one's laurels? If so, why doesn't MSR do that, since it is just as established historically as Rheingau. Is it simply that many of the estates, as far as I can tell, are larger in the Rheingau. I'm thankful for all the insight on this thread.
Some formerly well regarded estates (Von Simmern, Schloss Schonborn, etc.) just really dropped the ball starting in the mid-1970s. It dragged down the entire region. Weil was one of the main producers to pick it back up again. Eventually Leitz started making some really top wines, and others as well. Schloss Johannisberg is really coming back, but they had a long period of poor performance as well.
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Re: Let's Talk Rheingau

#21 Post by Robert Dentice »

K N Haque wrote: February 13th, 2021, 1:18 pm
D@vid Bu3ker wrote: February 13th, 2021, 10:44 am The thing about the Rheingau is all those great sites that are in the hands of under-performing producers. If only...
Well, this is one reason I started this trend. Wnever Rheingau is mentioned, people say it is underperforming. I am not expert enough to judge, though I will say some of the better Rieslings I have had have been from Rheingau, especially from Weil and PJ Kühn. I've also been disappointed by others, but that is true for most German regions for me, as well.

Why do people think the region underperforms? It is a matter of resting on one's laurels? If so, why doesn't MSR do that, since it is just as established historically as Rheingau. Is it simply that many of the estates, as far as I can tell, are larger in the Rheingau. I'm thankful for all the insight on this thread.
I am going to guess that global warming has changed how vineyards are farmed and smaller conscientious growers can adapt easier to those changes. In the Mosel for example a producer like Will Schaefer is tiny compared to many Rheingau estates. For example, Robert Weil has 85 hectares, Leitz 40+ and Schaefer 4.2.
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Re: Let's Talk Rheingau

#22 Post by D@vid Bu3ker »

Robert Dentice wrote: February 13th, 2021, 1:57 pm
K N Haque wrote: February 13th, 2021, 1:18 pm
D@vid Bu3ker wrote: February 13th, 2021, 10:44 am The thing about the Rheingau is all those great sites that are in the hands of under-performing producers. If only...
Well, this is one reason I started this trend. Wnever Rheingau is mentioned, people say it is underperforming. I am not expert enough to judge, though I will say some of the better Rieslings I have had have been from Rheingau, especially from Weil and PJ Kühn. I've also been disappointed by others, but that is true for most German regions for me, as well.

Why do people think the region underperforms? It is a matter of resting on one's laurels? If so, why doesn't MSR do that, since it is just as established historically as Rheingau. Is it simply that many of the estates, as far as I can tell, are larger in the Rheingau. I'm thankful for all the insight on this thread.
I am going to guess that global warming has changed how vineyards are farmed and smaller conscientious growers can adapt easier to those changes. In the Mosel for example a producer like Will Schaefer is tiny compared to many Rheingau estates. For example, Robert Weil has 85 hectares, Leitz 40+ and Schaefer 4.2.
Perhaps now, but that doesn't explain how terribly the "great estates of the Rheingau" performed in the 1980s and most of the 1990s.
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Re: Let's Talk Rheingau

#23 Post by Eric Ifune »

Why do people think the region underperforms? It is a matter of resting on one's laurels? If so, why doesn't MSR do that, since it is just as established historically as Rheingau. Is it simply that many of the estates, as far as I can tell, are larger in the Rheingau. I'm thankful for all the insight on this thread.
Historically, the Rheingau was considered the most prestigious region in German speaking regions. Riesling and botrytis wines where thought to have gotten their start there. It was the one white wine as expensive as first growth Burgundy and Bordeaux.

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Re: Let's Talk Rheingau

#24 Post by A.Gillette »

[quote="Robert Dentice" post_id=3200792
It is not just me who fawns over them. When Stephen started importing them to the U.S. almost every major sommelier in NYC flipped over them and immediately added them to their lists. The majority of the people I have poured them for fall in love with them. Not to mention he is a winemaker's winemaker and revered in Germany by his peers.

As for wines you don't like that is cool but I don't think it is fair to keep giving opinions on wines you have not tried recently. The Keller wines have changed a lot since you stopped buying them. As have the recent vintages of JB Becker. I would be absolutely shocked if you tried the 2015 JB Becker Jean Baptiste and did not like it.
[/quote]

I don’t doubt what you are saying about nyc somms because Becker is a pretty constant presence on NYC “by the glass” lists, and all of those I’ve tried have been pretty well-suited to that purpose: unoffensive, inexpensive, and not particularly memorable. After a bunch of glasses tried that way, I’ve never felt the need to buy a bottle. I’ve got an open mind so I just grabbed a few bottles of the 2015 Jean Baptiste that you recommend. My hopes are high.

I haven’t found much in the Rheingau that seems worth buying every year. The one exception, based on relatively limited experience, is the Breuer wines - which so far seem worth chasing.

A
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Re: Let's Talk Rheingau

#25 Post by Greg K »

I like Leitz quite a bit, but they're hard to find in the US due to importer issues (tried to buy the directly from the estate, but that fell through). I also think Weil's wines with a bit of age are lovely, and I think people sometimes, undervalue them because of the corporate (Suntory) ownership. But I find them quite good and they're also a nice and easy visit that's very close to Frankfurt (the Rheingau is extremely pretty). I've also had a few very good Kesseler wines as well, though to be honest I don't seek them out.
I'm not a huge fan of Becker, from what I've tasted, but I do know some people really like the wines.
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Re: Let's Talk Rheingau

#26 Post by James Wright »

The Rheingau is second only to Burgundy in guaranteeing that one pays too much and receives too little
~ Verteidiger der Wahrheit ~

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Re: Let's Talk Rheingau

#27 Post by Robert Dentice »

A.Gillette wrote: February 13th, 2021, 7:18 pm [quote="Robert Dentice" post_id=3200792
It is not just me who fawns over them. When Stephen started importing them to the U.S. almost every major sommelier in NYC flipped over them and immediately added them to their lists. The majority of the people I have poured them for fall in love with them. Not to mention he is a winemaker's winemaker and revered in Germany by his peers.

As for wines you don't like that is cool but I don't think it is fair to keep giving opinions on wines you have not tried recently. The Keller wines have changed a lot since you stopped buying them. As have the recent vintages of JB Becker. I would be absolutely shocked if you tried the 2015 JB Becker Jean Baptiste and did not like it.
I don’t doubt what you are saying about nyc somms because Becker is a pretty constant presence on NYC “by the glass” lists, and all of those I’ve tried have been pretty well-suited to that purpose: unoffensive, inexpensive, and not particularly memorable. After a bunch of glasses tried that way, I’ve never felt the need to buy a bottle. I’ve got an open mind so I just grabbed a few bottles of the 2015 Jean Baptiste that you recommend. My hopes are high.

I haven’t found much in the Rheingau that seems worth buying every year. The one exception, based on relatively limited experience, is the Breuer wines - which so far seem worth chasing.

A
[/quote]

Cool! Give that wine some air it is a long ager. And I will backstop your purchase if you don't like it I will give you a bottle of Breuer and buy the others : ) Hope we can drink soon!
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Re: Let's Talk Rheingau

#28 Post by Howard Cooper »

K N Haque wrote: February 13th, 2021, 1:18 pm
D@vid Bu3ker wrote: February 13th, 2021, 10:44 am The thing about the Rheingau is all those great sites that are in the hands of under-performing producers. If only...
Well, this is one reason I started this trend. Wnever Rheingau is mentioned, people say it is underperforming. I am not expert enough to judge, though I will say some of the better Rieslings I have had have been from Rheingau, especially from Weil and PJ Kühn. I've also been disappointed by others, but that is true for most German regions for me, as well.

Why do people think the region underperforms? It is a matter of resting on one's laurels? If so, why doesn't MSR do that, since it is just as established historically as Rheingau. Is it simply that many of the estates, as far as I can tell, are larger in the Rheingau. I'm thankful for all the insight on this thread.
Some of the most famous vineyards in Germany are Schloss Johannisberg, Schloss Vollrads, Erbacher Marcobrunn, Steinberger and Rauenthaler Baiken. I have had a few really good Marcobrunns and Baikens from the 1970s and 1980s. I had a taste of a wonderful Steinberger from the 1940s at a Rieslingfeier dinner. But, for the most part, the wines I have had from these jewels and other top vineyard sites have vastly underperformed. Could be some of these have gotten somewhat better, I don't know because I stopped drinking them long ago.

Are there producers making excellent wine in the Rheingau, yes. But, does it mean the Rheingau has not slipped off its one exalted perch, no. Imagine if we were discussing the Medoc at a time when Lafite, Latour, Margaux and Mouton were all making mediocre wines and people made the argument that the region had not slipped because Sociando Mallet, La Lagune and Lynch Bages were making wonderful wines. And, before you think this is a weird analogy, go back and look at the posts saying that at one time the wines from the Rheingau sold at first growth prices. Well, it was the wines from the vineyards I mentioned and maybe a couple of more selling at those prices.

To me the answer to why the MSR does not rest on its laurels, I would answer in two parts (1) I am not sure that this has not been the case with respect to its most famous vineyard - Bernkastler Doktor and (2) because elsewhere the MSR has producers like Egon Mueller, Zilliken, von Schubert, Falkenstein, Reinhold Haart, Schloss Lieser, JJ Prum, Selbach, Willi Schaefer, Fritz Haag, etc., etc., etc., with holdings in most of the great vineyard sites. Note that I understand Schloss Lieser now has some of the Bernkastler Doktor. Have not seen this wine but would love to try it. And, I would love to see the top vineyards of the Rheingau get into the hands of say Zilliken, Donnhoff, Keller, etc., and then see if the issue really is climate change.
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Re: Let's Talk Rheingau

#29 Post by James Wright »

^
Dr Rowald Hepp has done a rather masterful job of putting Humpty-Dumpty back together again
at Schloss Vollrads, after the demise of Graf Matuschka

...and the best Riesling i have drunk in the past decade
was a 1975 Rauenthaler Baiken Spätlese from Schloss Eltz
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Re: Let's Talk Rheingau

#30 Post by D@vid Bu3ker »

That's good to know James. If I see a bottle from recent vintage Vollrads I will give it a try again.
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Re: Let's Talk Rheingau

#31 Post by Howard Cooper »

James Wright wrote: February 14th, 2021, 7:03 am ^
Dr Rowald Hepp has done a rather masterful job of putting Humpty-Dumpty back together again
at Schloss Vollrads, after the demise of Graf Matuschka

...and the best Riesling i have drunk in the past decade
was a 1975 Rauenthaler Baiken Spätlese from Schloss Eltz
I agree with you about Schloss Eltz. Great wines. If they were still making wine I might not be making the same comments. When did they stop making wine - 1980 or so?

Didn't know about changes at Schloss Vollrads. Thanks. About what vintages should we look for? After when?
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Re: Let's Talk Rheingau

#32 Post by Robert Dentice »

Howard Cooper wrote: February 14th, 2021, 8:07 am
James Wright wrote: February 14th, 2021, 7:03 am ^
Dr Rowald Hepp has done a rather masterful job of putting Humpty-Dumpty back together again
at Schloss Vollrads, after the demise of Graf Matuschka

...and the best Riesling i have drunk in the past decade
was a 1975 Rauenthaler Baiken Spätlese from Schloss Eltz
I agree with you about Schloss Eltz. Great wines. If they were still making wine I might not be making the same comments. When did they stop making wine - 1980 or so?

Didn't know about changes at Schloss Vollrads. Thanks. About what vintages should we look for? After when?
Some interesting information on the Eltz demise:

https://www.nytimes.com/1979/06/27/arch ... -talk.html
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Re: Let's Talk Rheingau

#33 Post by Claus Jeppesen »

I am sure some Rheingau estates have been underperforming in longer periods.
But certainly not Breuer. Hard /impossible to find better dry Riesling
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Re: Let's Talk Rheingau

#34 Post by K N Haque »

Robert Dentice wrote: February 14th, 2021, 10:00 am Some interesting information on the Eltz demise:

https://www.nytimes.com/1979/06/27/arch ... -talk.html
Thanks for the link. It's worthwhile to note that the Rheingau is mentioned therein as "the most famous of Germany's wine regions."
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Re: Let's Talk Rheingau

#35 Post by David K o l i n »

Just pulled this for consumption. Do you think 50 years is enough? 😁
628F23A7-597F-4AB5-8880-99CDAF0FF958.jpeg

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Re: Let's Talk Rheingau

#36 Post by Howard Cooper »

David K o l i n wrote: February 14th, 2021, 4:13 pm Just pulled this for consumption. Do you think 50 years is enough? 😁

628F23A7-597F-4AB5-8880-99CDAF0FF958.jpeg
I don't think you are going to like this wine. You should send it to me. [winner.gif] [worship.gif] champagne.gif
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Re: Let's Talk Rheingau

#37 Post by Joseph MR »

Robert Dentice wrote: February 13th, 2021, 10:34 am
Mattstolz wrote: February 13th, 2021, 9:35 am i am curious about any reports on Eva Fricke. CT notes are generally really positive and the prices always are pretty attractive, but ive never tried them
I like the wines very much but can't say they are in my normal buying rotation. She just switched importers to The German Wine Collection and the prices are about to double. She trained at JB Becker before moving to Leitz and then on her own.
I particularly [cheers.gif] like the balance of acid and RS in Eva’s Seligmacher.
ra + * ter

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Re: Let's Talk Rheingau

#38 Post by Andrew Bair »

The best Rheingau wines compete with the MSR as my absolute favorites in Germany.

Favorites, in no particular order:
Leitz
Weil
PJK
Spreitzer
Breuer

Next level:
Kunstler (impressive Spätburgunder as well as Riesling)
Eva Fricke (impressive rose sekt!)
Schloss Johannisberg
Schloss Schonborn (dry Rieslings have been excellent for the past decade, haven't had much at the Spatlese/Auslese level in recent years)

No recent experience, but some excellent wines in the 2000s:
Prinz
Kessler (both Riesling and Spätburgunder were impressive in the early to mid-2000s; have barely seen the wines since then)

Good, but could be better nowadays. These producers made some outstanding wines way back in the day
:
Kloster Eberbach. The historian in me would love to visit this property and wants these wines to live up to their full potential again, as some 1960s and 1970s bottlings have. Both Riesling and Spätburgunder excelled.
von Simmern
Schloss Reinhartshausen
Hupfeld Erben: I purchased several of their wines at auction a couple of years ago, dating from 1971 to 1983. The quality of these bottles definitely exceeded my expectations: even a 1981 Mittelheimer Edelmann Kerner Kabinett was compelling and showing no signs of fading. Kerner can make some excellent wines in Alto Adige, but this was the first German Kerner that I was even remotely impressed by.

Good reputation, but zero experience with them:
Corvers-Kauter, which is leasing several of the von Simmern vineyards
Flick

Hoping they got their act together soon:
Schloss Vollrads - I've been burned on these a few times when I'd heard that they had supposedly turned around, and bought what turned out to be a flabby Riesling. I will need some convincing in order to try anything recent from them.
Baron Knyphausen - historic estate that should be making better wines
Von Mumm - under the same ownership as Schloss Johannisberg, which has considerably improved in the past decade. Definitely has potential to make compelling Rieslings, such as the 1949 Hasensprung BA that I tasted at Rieslingfeier a couple of years ago.
Prinz von Hessen: Some very good parcels, but ultimately another one of those aristocratic estates that has not made wines worthy of its name in years. A 1960 Hasensprung Feine Spatlese Cabinet was impressive; more recent wines have hardly been at the same level.
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Re: Let's Talk Rheingau

#39 Post by Andrew Bair »

David K o l i n wrote: February 14th, 2021, 4:13 pm Just pulled this for consumption. Do you think 50 years is enough? 😁

628F23A7-597F-4AB5-8880-99CDAF0FF958.jpeg
Hoping you enjoy this bottle! champagne.gif

I had a1971 Langenstück BA a few years ago and it was impressive (is anyone doing anything with this site nowadays?).

Schloss Eltz made some amazing wines back in the day. I set aside one of their Rieslings to celebrate the end of the COVID-19 pandemic when it comes.

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Re: Let's Talk Rheingau

#40 Post by Andrew Bair »

Robert Dentice wrote: February 14th, 2021, 10:00 am
Howard Cooper wrote: February 14th, 2021, 8:07 am
James Wright wrote: February 14th, 2021, 7:03 am ^
Dr Rowald Hepp has done a rather masterful job of putting Humpty-Dumpty back together again
at Schloss Vollrads, after the demise of Graf Matuschka

...and the best Riesling i have drunk in the past decade
was a 1975 Rauenthaler Baiken Spätlese from Schloss Eltz
I agree with you about Schloss Eltz. Great wines. If they were still making wine I might not be making the same comments. When did they stop making wine - 1980 or so?

Didn't know about changes at Schloss Vollrads. Thanks. About what vintages should we look for? After when?
Some interesting information on the Eltz demise:

https://www.nytimes.com/1979/06/27/arch ... -talk.html
Thank you for the link, Robert. This is more detail than I previously knew about the demise of Eltz (I was only aware that there was a "bad investment") - then again, the estate became defunct when I was a baby.

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Re: Let's Talk Rheingau

#41 Post by D@vid Bu3ker »

Anybody seen wine from Johannishof (Eser) lately? I had some good bottles from 2002, but haven’t seen a thing for years.
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Re: Let's Talk Rheingau

#42 Post by K N Haque »

D@vid Bu3ker wrote: February 14th, 2021, 6:10 pm Anybody seen wine from Johannishof (Eser) lately? I had some good bottles from 2002, but haven’t seen a thing for years.
Wine Searcher is showing some availability, especially of the Charta Riesling.
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Re: Let's Talk Rheingau

#43 Post by Howard Cooper »

Andrew Bair wrote: February 14th, 2021, 5:09 pm The best Rheingau wines compete with the MSR as my absolute favorites in Germany.

Favorites, in no particular order:
Leitz
Weil
PJK
Spreitzer
Breuer

Next level:
Kunstler (impressive Spätburgunder as well as Riesling)
Eva Fricke (impressive rose sekt!)
Schloss Johannisberg
Schloss Schonborn (dry Rieslings have been excellent for the past decade, haven't had much at the Spatlese/Auslese level in recent years)

No recent experience, but some excellent wines in the 2000s:
Prinz
Kessler (both Riesling and Spätburgunder were impressive in the early to mid-2000s; have barely seen the wines since then)

Good, but could be better nowadays. These producers made some outstanding wines way back in the day
:
Kloster Eberbach. The historian in me would love to visit this property and wants these wines to live up to their full potential again, as some 1960s and 1970s bottlings have. Both Riesling and Spätburgunder excelled.
von Simmern
Schloss Reinhartshausen
Hupfeld Erben: I purchased several of their wines at auction a couple of years ago, dating from 1971 to 1983. The quality of these bottles definitely exceeded my expectations: even a 1981 Mittelheimer Edelmann Kerner Kabinett was compelling and showing no signs of fading. Kerner can make some excellent wines in Alto Adige, but this was the first German Kerner that I was even remotely impressed by.

Good reputation, but zero experience with them:
Corvers-Kauter, which is leasing several of the von Simmern vineyards
Flick

Hoping they got their act together soon:
Schloss Vollrads - I've been burned on these a few times when I'd heard that they had supposedly turned around, and bought what turned out to be a flabby Riesling. I will need some convincing in order to try anything recent from them.
Baron Knyphausen - historic estate that should be making better wines
Von Mumm - under the same ownership as Schloss Johannisberg, which has considerably improved in the past decade. Definitely has potential to make compelling Rieslings, such as the 1949 Hasensprung BA that I tasted at Rieslingfeier a couple of years ago.
Prinz von Hessen: Some very good parcels, but ultimately another one of those aristocratic estates that has not made wines worthy of its name in years. A 1960 Hasensprung Feine Spatlese Cabinet was impressive; more recent wines have hardly been at the same level.
Interesting post. Thanks. Thoughts and questions:

Is Schloss Reinhartshausen still around. I have not seen their wine in decades. Used to love their wines from the 70s and early 80s.

I also liked wines from Knyphausen from the early 80s and have not seen their wines in a long time. Sad that they have gone downhill.

Not a big fan of von Simmern. The only 2001 I have tasted that seemed old was a Erbacher Marcobrun Kabinett.

Also have not had any wines from Schloss Schonborn in a long time. Never had any that were very good. It is great if they are making excellent wines again. Has anyone had any pradikat wines from them?
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Re: Let's Talk Rheingau

#44 Post by K N Haque »

Schloss Reinharthshausen is still around, but doesn't seem to be imported into the U.S.
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Re: Let's Talk Rheingau

#45 Post by D@vid Bu3ker »

There was a period maybe 15 years ago when a bunch of ‘90s and early ‘00s von Simmern showed up. They all seemed way older than they should have been, without showing obvious heat damage. Just not good, and not a good look for the estate or the importer.
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Re: Let's Talk Rheingau

#46 Post by Howard Cooper »

K N Haque wrote: February 15th, 2021, 6:08 am Schloss Reinharthshausen is still around, but doesn't seem to be imported into the U.S.
Are they still good?
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Re: Let's Talk Rheingau

#47 Post by K N Haque »

Howard Cooper wrote: February 15th, 2021, 10:59 am
K N Haque wrote: February 15th, 2021, 6:08 am Schloss Reinharthshausen is still around, but doesn't seem to be imported into the U.S.
Are they still good?
Well, I just found this online so I guess they had been imported in the last 5+ years: https://wineonlinedelivery.com/product/ ... runn-2013/

I have not had any. I have seen them in Germany while traveling. They caught my eye, because they use the same robin's egg blue that Robert Weil does, so at first I thought it was a Weil bottle.
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Re: Let's Talk Rheingau

#48 Post by James Wright »

Schloss Reinhartshausen’s 1971 Erbacher Siegelsberg Beerenauslese remains in my memory
as one of the most remarkable & monumental wines ever to go down this fellers gullet...
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Re: Let's Talk Rheingau

#49 Post by Brian G r a f s t r o m »

I've had, and still have, a few Kesseler's from the early-to-mid 2000s. They've been hit-or-miss; they first one I ever had was a hit, which is why I ended-up with a couple handfuls. The variability I've experienced as I've worked through them has left me without a desire to seek them out further.

I have a couple Weil's laying down, one of which I may have even pulled from offsite recently, but I've yet to actually taste one.
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Re: Let's Talk Rheingau

#50 Post by James Wright »

the first time i became aware of tasting a perfect wine
it was at Weil in summer 2003.

i showed up along with old pal Dave Schildknecht, on his annual compression tour,
and Wilhelm W. had everything open and waiting for us –

the perfect wine was the 2002 Kiedricher Sandgrub Spätlese

and the way i knew it was perfect, was that i could still taste it in the back of my mouth
even after tasting the Auslese, the Beerenauslese, the Eiswein and the Trockenbeerenauslese
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