Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

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Top Red Burgundy vintage in the 21st century

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Mich@el Ch@ng
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#151 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng »

Jay Miller wrote: January 24th, 2021, 3:48 pm
Greg K wrote: January 24th, 2021, 2:31 pm
Keith Levenberg wrote: January 23rd, 2021, 7:02 pm
Ever had a '62, '64, or '66? or a '49? If you did and were told the wine wasn't very pleasurable at age 15, would that have detracted from your experience?
I really don't think this is the defense of 2005 that some people think it is. "Don't worry, 2005 is like those vintages that you've never had where the wine eventually came good after decades" is not something that gives me any comfort. First, it might not be - the 96s certainly have not come around, in my opinion. Vintages are different, and 2005 might not be like any of 62, 64, 66 or 49. Second, as Keynes (and others) have pointed out, in the long run we are all dead. I will get no pleasure out of my 2005s being opened by a future Francois Audouze in 2121. Third, there is negative carry. Not only do I have to pay to store my 05s, there are other wines I don't own because I own the 05s.

Does that mean I think 05 is a bad vintage? No, of course not. But the fact that it's been mostly unpleasant to drink for almost a decade is certainly a factor in debating whether or not it's the best vintage of the last 20 years.
But the fact that it has followed the same pattern as pretty much any other good Burgundy vintage (shutting down for quite a while) makes it very likely that it will come around. Personally based on how they showed on release I think they'll start being pretty great in a decade or so just as the 93s started being consistently great a few years ago. But time will tell.

Mich@el Ch@ng wrote: January 24th, 2021, 11:59 am 06 and 08 are sort of the mystery vintages for me. Not 100% sure what to think about them. I love 07.
06 varied a lot from region to region. The problems in Volnay were pretty well documented (07 more than made up for that for Volnay lovers) but conversely I loved everything I tried from NSG. In other regions I liked pretty much everything without being wowed but time will tell. I haven't tried any recently.

08 I liked a lot overall. The sort of medium bodied balanced vintage which IMO will coast effortlessly for years once it opens back up again. But, you guessed it, time will tell.
I remember opening a 06 angerville champans that was just awful a few years ago. I have a few lafarge 06 caillerets that I’m not so sure about. I have less 06 than any other vintage besides 03, 04 and 11.

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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#152 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng »

Greg K wrote: January 24th, 2021, 3:55 pm
Mich@el Ch@ng wrote: January 24th, 2021, 3:39 pm
A.Gillette wrote: January 24th, 2021, 3:38 pm ^ I’m with Greg on this one. There are some ‘18s that really show their alcohol. Seems far from a sure thing to me. It seems like too nuanced of a vintage to make a proclamation of a greatness right now, but I sure hope it turns out great.
A
That’s fair, but the bar was 13 and I think it’s a much better vintage than 13.
And, as I keep saying, plenty of people do not. I’ve passed on a number of allocations because the wines are close to undrinkable for my palate.

Could I be wrong? Sure! And I hope for the people loading up on 18s that I am. But I think making declarative claims about the greatness of awfulness of 18 is very presumptuous. Most professional reviews I’ve seen have pointed to a mixed vintage, for example. So it’s entirely possible for some people’s palate this will not be a great vintage.
The market, even consider tariffs, is pricing 18s quite a bit above 13 and 14, fwiw.

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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#153 Post by Greg K »

Mich@el Ch@ng wrote: January 24th, 2021, 4:59 pm
Greg K wrote: January 24th, 2021, 3:55 pm
Mich@el Ch@ng wrote: January 24th, 2021, 3:39 pm

That’s fair, but the bar was 13 and I think it’s a much better vintage than 13.
And, as I keep saying, plenty of people do not. I’ve passed on a number of allocations because the wines are close to undrinkable for my palate.

Could I be wrong? Sure! And I hope for the people loading up on 18s that I am. But I think making declarative claims about the greatness of awfulness of 18 is very presumptuous. Most professional reviews I’ve seen have pointed to a mixed vintage, for example. So it’s entirely possible for some people’s palate this will not be a great vintage.
The market, even consider tariffs, is pricing 18s quite a bit above 13 and 14, fwiw.
Yes, Burgundy has increased in price since 2014. That's the only thing that statistic is worth.
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#154 Post by Greg K »

Mich@el Ch@ng wrote: January 24th, 2021, 4:57 pm
Jay Miller wrote: January 24th, 2021, 3:48 pm
Greg K wrote: January 24th, 2021, 2:31 pm

I really don't think this is the defense of 2005 that some people think it is. "Don't worry, 2005 is like those vintages that you've never had where the wine eventually came good after decades" is not something that gives me any comfort. First, it might not be - the 96s certainly have not come around, in my opinion. Vintages are different, and 2005 might not be like any of 62, 64, 66 or 49. Second, as Keynes (and others) have pointed out, in the long run we are all dead. I will get no pleasure out of my 2005s being opened by a future Francois Audouze in 2121. Third, there is negative carry. Not only do I have to pay to store my 05s, there are other wines I don't own because I own the 05s.

Does that mean I think 05 is a bad vintage? No, of course not. But the fact that it's been mostly unpleasant to drink for almost a decade is certainly a factor in debating whether or not it's the best vintage of the last 20 years.
But the fact that it has followed the same pattern as pretty much any other good Burgundy vintage (shutting down for quite a while) makes it very likely that it will come around. Personally based on how they showed on release I think they'll start being pretty great in a decade or so just as the 93s started being consistently great a few years ago. But time will tell.

Mich@el Ch@ng wrote: January 24th, 2021, 11:59 am 06 and 08 are sort of the mystery vintages for me. Not 100% sure what to think about them. I love 07.
06 varied a lot from region to region. The problems in Volnay were pretty well documented (07 more than made up for that for Volnay lovers) but conversely I loved everything I tried from NSG. In other regions I liked pretty much everything without being wowed but time will tell. I haven't tried any recently.

08 I liked a lot overall. The sort of medium bodied balanced vintage which IMO will coast effortlessly for years once it opens back up again. But, you guessed it, time will tell.
I remember opening a 06 angerville champans that was just awful a few years ago. I have a few lafarge 06 caillerets that I’m not so sure about. I have less 06 than any other vintage besides 03, 04 and 11.
D'Angerville 06s are notoriously variable, as Guillaume himself has said. It was his second full vintage and he didn't get it right. His 06s are in no way applicable to the entire vintage.
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#155 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng »

Greg K wrote: January 24th, 2021, 5:17 pm
Mich@el Ch@ng wrote: January 24th, 2021, 4:59 pm
Greg K wrote: January 24th, 2021, 3:55 pm

And, as I keep saying, plenty of people do not. I’ve passed on a number of allocations because the wines are close to undrinkable for my palate.

Could I be wrong? Sure! And I hope for the people loading up on 18s that I am. But I think making declarative claims about the greatness of awfulness of 18 is very presumptuous. Most professional reviews I’ve seen have pointed to a mixed vintage, for example. So it’s entirely possible for some people’s palate this will not be a great vintage.
The market, even consider tariffs, is pricing 18s quite a bit above 13 and 14, fwiw.
Yes, Burgundy has increased in price since 2014. That's the only thing that statistic is worth.
I’m talking about 13 and 14s today. 15 is priced above 18 for the most part so it’s not just because prices increase over time.

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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#156 Post by A.Gillette »

Mich@el Ch@ng wrote: January 24th, 2021, 4:54 pm I’m happy to trade my 13 and 14 DRC, Liger Belair, Mugneret Gibourg, Arnoux-Lachaux and Rousseau for 18s once they’re released, not that I imagine I’ll find many takers.
Have you tried the 18’s from DRC, Rousseau and M-G?
A
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#157 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng »

A.Gillette wrote: January 24th, 2021, 5:22 pm
Mich@el Ch@ng wrote: January 24th, 2021, 4:54 pm I’m happy to trade my 13 and 14 DRC, Liger Belair, Mugneret Gibourg, Arnoux-Lachaux and Rousseau for 18s once they’re released, not that I imagine I’ll find many takers.
Have you tried the 18’s from DRC, Rousseau and M-G?
A
Just MG, which I loved. I’ll still trade. Drc isn’t released yet I don’t think and I haven’t seen Rousseau in the US.
Last edited by Mich@el Ch@ng on January 24th, 2021, 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#158 Post by Greg K »

Mich@el Ch@ng wrote: January 24th, 2021, 5:22 pm
Greg K wrote: January 24th, 2021, 5:17 pm
Mich@el Ch@ng wrote: January 24th, 2021, 4:59 pm

The market, even consider tariffs, is pricing 18s quite a bit above 13 and 14, fwiw.
Yes, Burgundy has increased in price since 2014. That's the only thing that statistic is worth.
I’m talking about 13 and 14s today. 15 is priced above 18 for the most part so it’s not just because prices increase over time.
The big increase in prices came with the 2015 vintage, and there are tariffs applicable to the 2018s which only increased the prices further. 2017s are also consistently more expensive that 2014s. Does that mean the market thinks 2017 is much better? Or does it mean Burgundy prices have gone up? Almost certainly the latter.

And this is besides the point that "X is more expensive" is, at best, a questionable argument of value. That the 2003 Chave is priced at $1300 on WS doesn't mean it's a good wine!

Anyway, it's clear you like 2018s. That's great. I hope you really enjoy them. But you have no platform to argue that others' views on the vintage aren't valid. I've tried some of the wines both in barrel and in bottle, and I do not agree; I do not think this is a particularly great vintage*. I don't think there's all that much more to say; you're welcome to have the last word though.


*This doesn't mean there won't be good wine made in 2018, of course. There always is, even in terrible vintages.
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#159 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng »

Greg K wrote: January 24th, 2021, 5:29 pm
Mich@el Ch@ng wrote: January 24th, 2021, 5:22 pm
Greg K wrote: January 24th, 2021, 5:17 pm

Yes, Burgundy has increased in price since 2014. That's the only thing that statistic is worth.
I’m talking about 13 and 14s today. 15 is priced above 18 for the most part so it’s not just because prices increase over time.
The big increase in prices came with the 2015 vintage, and there are tariffs applicable to the 2018s which only increased the prices further. 2017s are also consistently more expensive that 2014s. Does that mean the market thinks 2017 is much better? Or does it mean Burgundy prices have gone up? Almost certainly the latter.

And this is besides the point that "X is more expensive" is, at best, a questionable argument of value. That the 2003 Chave is priced at $1300 on WS doesn't mean it's a good wine!

Anyway, it's clear you like 2018s. That's great. I hope you really enjoy them. But you have no platform to argue that others' views on the vintage aren't valid. I've tried some of the wines both in barrel and in bottle, and I do not agree; I do not think this is a particularly great vintage*. I don't think there's all that much more to say; you're welcome to have the last word though.


*This doesn't mean there won't be good wine made in 2018, of course. There always is, even in terrible vintages.
I don’t need everyone to acknowledge that it’s a great vintage. I think it probably won’t be as good as 15 and I may prefer 17. That said, saying it isn’t a good vintage is IMO wrong.

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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#160 Post by A.Gillette »

Mich@el Ch@ng wrote: January 24th, 2021, 5:28 pm
A.Gillette wrote: January 24th, 2021, 5:22 pm
Mich@el Ch@ng wrote: January 24th, 2021, 4:54 pm I’m happy to trade my 13 and 14 DRC, Liger Belair, Mugneret Gibourg, Arnoux-Lachaux and Rousseau for 18s once they’re released, not that I imagine I’ll find many takers.
Have you tried the 18’s from DRC, Rousseau and M-G?
A
Just MG, which I loved. I’ll still trade. Drc isn’t released yet I don’t think and I haven’t seen Rousseau in the US.
Have you had a lot of other 18s? I’ve only had the M-G vosne, and thought it showed alcohol and was hideously overpriced, but I don’t have an allocation and just grabbed a bottle at retail.
A
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#161 Post by Greg K »

A.Gillette wrote: January 24th, 2021, 5:39 pm
Mich@el Ch@ng wrote: January 24th, 2021, 5:28 pm
A.Gillette wrote: January 24th, 2021, 5:22 pm

Have you tried the 18’s from DRC, Rousseau and M-G?
A
Just MG, which I loved. I’ll still trade. Drc isn’t released yet I don’t think and I haven’t seen Rousseau in the US.
Have you had a lot of other 18s? I’ve only had the M-G vosne, and thought it showed alcohol and was hideously overpriced, but I don’t have an allocation and just grabbed a bottle at retail.
A
I like M-G and thought exactly the same when I had that same wine. And I typically like M-G quite a bit; have had the 2002 Feusselottes twice this month and it's great - it was the wine of the night both times.
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#162 Post by Jayson Cohen »

Greg K wrote: January 24th, 2021, 5:43 pm
A.Gillette wrote: January 24th, 2021, 5:39 pm
Mich@el Ch@ng wrote: January 24th, 2021, 5:28 pm

Just MG, which I loved. I’ll still trade. Drc isn’t released yet I don’t think and I haven’t seen Rousseau in the US.
Have you had a lot of other 18s? I’ve only had the M-G vosne, and thought it showed alcohol and was hideously overpriced, but I don’t have an allocation and just grabbed a bottle at retail.
A
I like M-G and thought exactly the same when I had that same wine. And I typically like M-G quite a bit; have had the 2002 Feusselottes twice this month and it's great - it was the wine of the night both times.
At our Chambolle tasting in 2019 too. At least I thought so.

You know how I feel about 2018s in most of France so I won’t join the broader bout here.

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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#163 Post by Alan Rath »

Mich@el Ch@ng wrote: January 24th, 2021, 4:54 pm I’m happy to trade my 13 and 14 DRC, Liger Belair, Mugneret Gibourg, Arnoux-Lachaux and Rousseau for 18s once they’re released, not that I imagine I’ll find many takers.
Hell, I'd do that trade in a heartbeat if I had them.
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#164 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng »

A.Gillette wrote: January 24th, 2021, 5:39 pm
Mich@el Ch@ng wrote: January 24th, 2021, 5:28 pm
A.Gillette wrote: January 24th, 2021, 5:22 pm

Have you tried the 18’s from DRC, Rousseau and M-G?
A
Just MG, which I loved. I’ll still trade. Drc isn’t released yet I don’t think and I haven’t seen Rousseau in the US.
Have you had a lot of other 18s? I’ve only had the M-G vosne, and thought it showed alcohol and was hideously overpriced, but I don’t have an allocation and just grabbed a bottle at retail.
A
Yes.
Arnoux-Lachaux
M-G vosne, columbiere, Clos vougeot, and Echezeaux.
Bertheau ac, 1er, charmes, amoureuses, bm
Marc Roy
Clerget
Duroche
Hudelot-Noellat (cv, suchots, village)
Some others

Generally I liked them all, with the exception of the berthaau ac which I thought didn’t show well.

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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#165 Post by Greg K »

Jayson Cohen wrote: January 24th, 2021, 5:48 pm
Greg K wrote: January 24th, 2021, 5:43 pm
A.Gillette wrote: January 24th, 2021, 5:39 pm

Have you had a lot of other 18s? I’ve only had the M-G vosne, and thought it showed alcohol and was hideously overpriced, but I don’t have an allocation and just grabbed a bottle at retail.
A
I like M-G and thought exactly the same when I had that same wine. And I typically like M-G quite a bit; have had the 2002 Feusselottes twice this month and it's great - it was the wine of the night both times.
At our Chambolle tasting in 2019 too. At least I thought so.

You know how I feel about 2018s in most of France so I won’t join the broader bout here.
Yup, I had it as my wine of the night then too.
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#166 Post by Greg K »

Alan Rath wrote: January 24th, 2021, 5:53 pm
Mich@el Ch@ng wrote: January 24th, 2021, 4:54 pm I’m happy to trade my 13 and 14 DRC, Liger Belair, Mugneret Gibourg, Arnoux-Lachaux and Rousseau for 18s once they’re released, not that I imagine I’ll find many takers.
Hell, I'd do that trade in a heartbeat if I had them.
2013 Rousseaus are fantastic; I'm with you.
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#167 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng »

Greg K wrote: January 24th, 2021, 6:18 pm
Alan Rath wrote: January 24th, 2021, 5:53 pm
Mich@el Ch@ng wrote: January 24th, 2021, 4:54 pm I’m happy to trade my 13 and 14 DRC, Liger Belair, Mugneret Gibourg, Arnoux-Lachaux and Rousseau for 18s once they’re released, not that I imagine I’ll find many takers.
Hell, I'd do that trade in a heartbeat if I had them.
2013 Rousseaus are fantastic; I'm with you.
Well they are priced 40% higher atm so as I said I’m happy to trade once they’re stateside.

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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#168 Post by Howard Cooper »

Mich@el Ch@ng wrote: January 24th, 2021, 5:34 pm
I don’t need everyone to acknowledge that it’s a great vintage. I think it probably won’t be as good as 15 and I may prefer 17. That said, saying it isn’t a good vintage is IMO wrong.
Michael, have you tasted any Ramonet reds from 2018?
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#169 Post by Larry Link »

Mich@el Ch@ng wrote: January 24th, 2021, 5:57 pm
A.Gillette wrote: January 24th, 2021, 5:39 pm
Mich@el Ch@ng wrote: January 24th, 2021, 5:28 pm

Just MG, which I loved. I’ll still trade. Drc isn’t released yet I don’t think and I haven’t seen Rousseau in the US.
Have you had a lot of other 18s? I’ve only had the M-G vosne, and thought it showed alcohol and was hideously overpriced, but I don’t have an allocation and just grabbed a bottle at retail.
A
Yes.
Arnoux-Lachaux
M-G vosne, columbiere, Clos vougeot, and Echezeaux.
Bertheau ac, 1er, charmes, amoureuses, bm
Marc Roy
Clerget
Duroche
Hudelot-Noellat (cv, suchots, village)
Some others

Generally I liked them all, with the exception of the berthaau ac which I thought didn’t show well.
Michael,

I’m not being judgmental but rather curious, how much wine do you drink? In an earlier topic on 2017 white burgundy you commented that you’d drunk 10 cases of burgundy from 2017 in the last year.

rote: ↑
Mich@el Ch@ng wrote: ↑
The vast majority of 17 is wide open. I’ve drank more than 10 cases of village, 1er, and grand cru 17 burg and less than a handful were tight, usually the ones you’d expect (barthod)

18s hit the market fairly recently, how on earth are you able to receive and consume that much burgundy? [cheers.gif]

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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#170 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng »

Howard Cooper wrote: January 24th, 2021, 6:39 pm
Mich@el Ch@ng wrote: January 24th, 2021, 5:34 pm
I don’t need everyone to acknowledge that it’s a great vintage. I think it probably won’t be as good as 15 and I may prefer 17. That said, saying it isn’t a good vintage is IMO wrong.
Michael, have you tasted any Ramonet reds from 2018?
No because they’ve been a bit more $; I’ll probably get some once I find a decent deal.

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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#171 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng »

Larry Link wrote: January 24th, 2021, 6:46 pm
Mich@el Ch@ng wrote: January 24th, 2021, 5:57 pm
A.Gillette wrote: January 24th, 2021, 5:39 pm

Have you had a lot of other 18s? I’ve only had the M-G vosne, and thought it showed alcohol and was hideously overpriced, but I don’t have an allocation and just grabbed a bottle at retail.
A
Yes.
Arnoux-Lachaux
M-G vosne, columbiere, Clos vougeot, and Echezeaux.
Bertheau ac, 1er, charmes, amoureuses, bm
Marc Roy
Clerget
Duroche
Hudelot-Noellat (cv, suchots, village)
Some others

Generally I liked them all, with the exception of the berthaau ac which I thought didn’t show well.
Michael,

I’m not being judgmental but rather curious, how much wine do you drink? In an earlier topic on 2017 white burgundy you commented that you’d drunk 10 cases of burgundy from 2017 in the last year.

rote: ↑
Mich@el Ch@ng wrote: ↑
The vast majority of 17 is wide open. I’ve drank more than 10 cases of village, 1er, and grand cru 17 burg and less than a handful were tight, usually the ones you’d expect (barthod)

18s hit the market fairly recently, how on earth are you able to receive and consume that much burgundy? [cheers.gif]
Probably 1/2-2/3 bottle a night on average. I drink almost exclusively red burg so that helps. I think on average we go through 200-300 bottles a year between my wife, myself, and guests.

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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#172 Post by Keith Levenberg »

Greg K wrote: January 24th, 2021, 2:31 pm
Keith Levenberg wrote: January 23rd, 2021, 7:02 pm
Mattstolz wrote: January 23rd, 2021, 5:49 pmI was thinking the same thing as I have read through the comments on 2005 during this thread. coming from an admittedly early experience level with burgundy, I am not sure why a vintage that is still pretty much pleasureless 15 years after vintage would ever rate over a vintage that provides some actual pleasure at some point.
Ever had a '62, '64, or '66? or a '49? If you did and were told the wine wasn't very pleasurable at age 15, would that have detracted from your experience?
I really don't think this is the defense of 2005 that some people think it is. "Don't worry, 2005 is like those vintages that you've never had where the wine eventually came good after decades" is not something that gives me any comfort.
Because it's not what I actually said

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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#173 Post by Greg K »

Keith Levenberg wrote: January 24th, 2021, 7:27 pm
Greg K wrote: January 24th, 2021, 2:31 pm
Keith Levenberg wrote: January 23rd, 2021, 7:02 pm
Ever had a '62, '64, or '66? or a '49? If you did and were told the wine wasn't very pleasurable at age 15, would that have detracted from your experience?
I really don't think this is the defense of 2005 that some people think it is. "Don't worry, 2005 is like those vintages that you've never had where the wine eventually came good after decades" is not something that gives me any comfort.
Because it's not what I actually said
I addressed the actual substance in the rest of my post.

And I very much stand by my argument that for a lot of people on this forum references to very old vintages of Burgundy don't mean very much; there's no meaningful way to try those wines. I had a conversation with a European friend a year ago and mentioned I don't like Gouges. He said - ah, but their wines from the late 60s are great, have you had those? To which I could only smile and shrug.
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#174 Post by D@v!d P@rt@!n »

I think 2010 might have the most potential. I've been really impressed by the 2009's lately and disappointed by the 2002's (soft, lacking tension etc.) recently consumed.
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#175 Post by Kent Comley »

D@v!d P@rt@!n wrote: January 24th, 2021, 8:00 pm I think 2010 might have the most potential. I've been really impressed by the 2009's lately and disappointed by the 2002's (soft, lacking tension etc.) recently consumed.
Had a coupl eof 02s recently and there was a sweetness to the wines. Not my cuppa tea!
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#176 Post by RyanC »

Kent Comley wrote: January 24th, 2021, 8:28 pm
D@v!d P@rt@!n wrote: January 24th, 2021, 8:00 pm I think 2010 might have the most potential. I've been really impressed by the 2009's lately and disappointed by the 2002's (soft, lacking tension etc.) recently consumed.
Had a coupl eof 02s recently and there was a sweetness to the wines. Not my cuppa tea!
I find the same 02 sweetness—but I kinda like it!

I’m super bullish on 09. They’ve been drinking beautifully with only upside ahead. I wouldn’t be shocked if it eventually ended up at the top of the heap.
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#177 Post by Howard Cooper »

RyanC wrote: January 24th, 2021, 9:07 pm
Kent Comley wrote: January 24th, 2021, 8:28 pm

Had a coupl eof 02s recently and there was a sweetness to the wines. Not my cuppa tea!
I find the same 02 sweetness—but I kinda like it!
And, this is Burgundy. Both people are correct, for their own tastes.
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#178 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng »

Well Howard you got a little more disagreement now.

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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#179 Post by Jay Miller »

Greg K wrote: January 24th, 2021, 4:02 pm
To be clear - I’d rank 2005 3rd. So it’s not as if I think it’s a bad vintage. But it’s neither a sure thing nor enjoyable now.

Ah, that makes more sense. Sorry for my misunderstanding. I probably even agree with you on that ranking.
Ripe fruit isn't necessarily a flaw.

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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#180 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng »

I would rank them (not including 2019)

2010
2009
2015
2005
2016
2002
2012
2017
2018
2001
2000
2014
2007
2013
2008
2006
2003
2011
2004

I don’t feel that strongly about the order of anything after 2018 except the last 3.
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#181 Post by Robert Sand »

Mich@el Ch@ng wrote: January 25th, 2021, 6:09 am I would rank them (not including 2019)

2010
2009
2015
2005
2016
2002
2012
2017
2018
2001
2000
2014
2007
2013
2008
2006
2003
2011
2004

I don’t feel that strongly about the order of anything after 2018 except the last 3.
My ranking is not THAT different, I think 2016 is better than 15 - and 14 better than 2000 ... but whatever.

I still wonder who were the 4 that voted for 2004 neener

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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#182 Post by Howard Cooper »

For me, it is easiest to rank vintages in groups:

top - 2010 and 2005

2nd - 2001, 2009, 2015, 2016, 2017

3rd - 2002, 2014

4th - 2000, 2007, 2012

5th - 2008, 2013, 2018

6th - 2006

7th - 2011

Last 2004

too heterogeneous to meaningfully rate 2003
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#183 Post by Greg K »

Jay Miller wrote: January 25th, 2021, 6:00 am
Greg K wrote: January 24th, 2021, 4:02 pm
To be clear - I’d rank 2005 3rd. So it’s not as if I think it’s a bad vintage. But it’s neither a sure thing nor enjoyable now.

Ah, that makes more sense. Sorry for my misunderstanding. I probably even agree with you on that ranking.
No misunderstanding, I probably expressed myself too negatively.
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#184 Post by Brady Daniels »

Robert Sand wrote: January 25th, 2021, 7:21 am I still wonder who were the 4 that voted for 2004 neener
Non-burg drinking board members with long memories and a sense of humor?
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#185 Post by Brady Daniels »

I remember when several prominent members of this board loooooved 2008 burg. This was most notable when 2009’s were new on the market.

Funny, 2009 received much the same reaction on the board then that 2018/2019 is receiving now. I was one of the naysayers. The lesson I took from that was knowing how little I should trust first impressions, especially based on en primeur.

With the long run of quality vintages and improving winemaking, the difference between affinity for different vintages is clearly based on personal taste as much as overall quality.
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#186 Post by Jay Miller »

Brady Daniels wrote: January 25th, 2021, 9:30 am I remember when several prominent members of this board loooooved 2008 burg. This was most notable when 2009’s were new on the market.

Funny, 2009 received much the same reaction on the board then that 2018/2019 is receiving now. I was one of the naysayers. The lesson I took from that was knowing how little I should trust first impressions, especially based on en primeur.

With the long run of quality vintages and improving winemaking, the difference between affinity for different vintages is clearly based on personal taste as much as overall quality.
I still love 2008 Burgundy as a vintage though it's shut down and needs to wait.

I was also a 2009 naysayer until they had a year in bottle at which point I changed my tune.
Ripe fruit isn't necessarily a flaw.

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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#187 Post by Greg K »

Brady Daniels wrote: January 25th, 2021, 9:30 am I remember when several prominent members of this board loooooved 2008 burg. This was most notable when 2009’s were new on the market.

Funny, 2009 received much the same reaction on the board then that 2018/2019 is receiving now. I was one of the naysayers. The lesson I took from that was knowing how little I should trust first impressions, especially based on en primeur.

With the long run of quality vintages and improving winemaking, the difference between affinity for different vintages is clearly based on personal taste as much as overall quality.
There's definitely something to this. In years past, I think 2018 could have been another 2003, whereas I think now it will simply be a heterogeneous vintage with some producers making big extracted wines, and some making very good ones. I've also now had a few of the wines from bottle, and they definitely show quite warm.

I am not, by any means, a climate determinist - I think Burgundy can not only survive, but thrive in warmer vintages given the better farming techniques and winemaking in the region. But I also think 2018 is the first such vintage and some producers were less prepared for it than they may be in the future.
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#188 Post by Howard Cooper »

Brady Daniels wrote: January 25th, 2021, 9:19 am
Robert Sand wrote: January 25th, 2021, 7:21 am I still wonder who were the 4 that voted for 2004 neener
Non-burg drinking board members with long memories and NO sense of humor?
fixed it
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#189 Post by Kent Comley »

Data point and sample of one but last nights 2006 Bruno Clavelier VR Beauxmonts was totally rocking and right in the zone. Might have to gather a few more examples of the vintage having shot my mouth off about the vintage earlier in the thread!
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#190 Post by Martin Steinley »

Mich@el Ch@ng wrote: January 24th, 2021, 2:31 pm
Greg K wrote: January 24th, 2021, 2:24 pm
Mattstolz wrote: January 24th, 2021, 12:58 pm so am I reading this thread wrong when I say that since 2014 we have basically had some flavor of good to very good every year in burgundy?
I'd say there are plenty of people who will disagree with respect to 2018.
I think in the long run it’s almost certain they’ll be wrong, though.
Without a doubt, and in the short run, too. I was wary of the vintage after reading vintage reports. I was even more wary when I poured Voillot's range from Volnay and Pommard to sample, as the the color was unusually dark and opaque. However, the wines are only ripe, and not overripe, and have freshness and verve. Subsequently, I have tasted through dozens of wines from the likes of Clavelier, Clerget, Comte de Vogue, Dujac, Roy and Guillemot, and some off-the-beaten-path producers. I have consistently found wines darker in color and fruit profile, and which are rich and concentrated, but supple and with good freshness and grip. Some of these young wines are simply dramatic, even sultry, and are a joy to try young, and will be brilliant as they stretch out over the years. I am a believer that the unusually wet winter and abundant harvest served as buffers against over-ripeness and any roasted character. They taste nothing like the 2003s. As with most red Burgundy vintages, they will be splendid with time (and they are exciting wines to drink young).

Dismissing a Burgundy vintage en masse eases current buying decisions and helps to rationalize past decisions, but serves little else in my experience.

Greg, last month, in the 2018 Burgundy thread, you reported that you had tried a total of eight bottles of 2018 red and white Burgundy. If that remains the case, it seems that your first-hand experience with the bottled wines is too slim to be so strident in your opinion of it. Knowing your experience with the bottled wines would help me, and likely others, better assess your opinion of it.
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#191 Post by Greg K »

Martin Steinley wrote: January 26th, 2021, 11:33 pmGreg, last month, in the 2018 Burgundy thread, you reported that you had tried a total of eight bottles of 2018 red and white Burgundy. If that remains the case, it seems that your first-hand experience with the bottled wines is too slim to be so strident in your opinion of it. Knowing your experience with the bottled wines would help me, and likely others, better assess your opinion of it.
You can rest assured Martin. Just for this conversation, I've checked my inventory and I've tried 23 bottles. If that number, as well as my barrel tasting, is insufficient for you to think I've formed a reasonable impression, I'll sleep easy regardless.
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#192 Post by Howard Cooper »

Martin Steinley wrote: January 26th, 2021, 11:33 pm
Mich@el Ch@ng wrote: January 24th, 2021, 2:31 pm
Greg K wrote: January 24th, 2021, 2:24 pm

I'd say there are plenty of people who will disagree with respect to 2018.
I think in the long run it’s almost certain they’ll be wrong, though.
Without a doubt, and in the short run, too. I was wary of the vintage after reading vintage reports. I was even more wary when I poured Voillot's range from Volnay and Pommard to sample, as the the color was unusually dark and opaque. However, the wines are only ripe, and not overripe, and have freshness and verve. Subsequently, I have tasted through dozens of wines from the likes of Clavelier, Clerget, Comte de Vogue, Dujac, Roy and Guillemot, and some off-the-beaten-path producers. I have consistently found wines darker in color and fruit profile, and which are rich and concentrated, but supple and with good freshness and grip. Some of these young wines are simply dramatic, even sultry, and are a joy to try young, and will be brilliant as they stretch out over the years. I am a believer that the unusually wet winter and abundant harvest served as buffers against over-ripeness and any roasted character. They taste nothing like the 2003s. As with most red Burgundy vintages, they will be splendid with time (and they are exciting wines to drink young).

Dismissing a Burgundy vintage en masse eases current buying decisions and helps to rationalize past decisions, but serves little else in my experience.

Greg, last month, in the 2018 Burgundy thread, you reported that you had tried a total of eight bottles of 2018 red and white Burgundy. If that remains the case, it seems that your first-hand experience with the bottled wines is too slim to be so strident in your opinion of it. Knowing your experience with the bottled wines would help me, and likely others, better assess your opinion of it.
Don't dismiss 2003 too broadly. I didn't buy widely in 2003 (just Truchot to keep allocations) but these wines have gotten truly fabulous. In the time period of this poll (2000-2006 for Truchot), 2003 probably right now is my favorite vintage (remembering that I have only opened Bourgogne of my 2005s).
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#193 Post by Martin Steinley »

Howard Cooper wrote: January 27th, 2021, 4:59 am
Martin Steinley wrote: January 26th, 2021, 11:33 pm
Mich@el Ch@ng wrote: January 24th, 2021, 2:31 pm

I think in the long run it’s almost certain they’ll be wrong, though.
Without a doubt, and in the short run, too. I was wary of the vintage after reading vintage reports. I was even more wary when I poured Voillot's range from Volnay and Pommard to sample, as the the color was unusually dark and opaque. However, the wines are only ripe, and not overripe, and have freshness and verve. Subsequently, I have tasted through dozens of wines from the likes of Clavelier, Clerget, Comte de Vogue, Dujac, Roy and Guillemot, and some off-the-beaten-path producers. I have consistently found wines darker in color and fruit profile, and which are rich and concentrated, but supple and with good freshness and grip. Some of these young wines are simply dramatic, even sultry, and are a joy to try young, and will be brilliant as they stretch out over the years. I am a believer that the unusually wet winter and abundant harvest served as buffers against over-ripeness and any roasted character. They taste nothing like the 2003s. As with most red Burgundy vintages, they will be splendid with time (and they are exciting wines to drink young).

Dismissing a Burgundy vintage en masse eases current buying decisions and helps to rationalize past decisions, but serves little else in my experience.

Greg, last month, in the 2018 Burgundy thread, you reported that you had tried a total of eight bottles of 2018 red and white Burgundy. If that remains the case, it seems that your first-hand experience with the bottled wines is too slim to be so strident in your opinion of it. Knowing your experience with the bottled wines would help me, and likely others, better assess your opinion of it.
Don't dismiss 2003 too broadly. I didn't buy widely in 2003 (just Truchot to keep allocations) but these wines have gotten truly fabulous. In the time period of this poll (2000-2006 for Truchot), 2003 probably right now is my favorite vintage (remembering that I have only opened Bourgogne of my 2005s).
When I said that the 2018s don't taste like the 2003s, I did not intend to dismiss 2003. My experience is that all vintages have something to offer, particularly with time.
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#194 Post by Fred Bower »

This thread is fun from the bleachers. It prompts me to put a few bottles into the queue to see how I feel about some of the observations about vintage character here.

I have no idea how to select a single vintage, since I have three categories of vintage: disastrous, long-term cellar candidates, and drinkers. While I expect my best drinking experiences to come from properly-timed long-term cellar candidates, I think that the sum-total vinous pleasure I get from drinker vintages might surpass those few unicorns. My acquisition strategy has been to set myself up to be drinking yesteryear's long-term cellar candidates in my autumnal years. If I do it right, the sum will balance out.

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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#195 Post by Howard Cooper »

Fred Bower wrote: January 27th, 2021, 12:49 pm This thread is fun from the bleachers. It prompts me to put a few bottles into the queue to see how I feel about some of the observations about vintage character here.

I have no idea how to select a single vintage, since I have three categories of vintage: disastrous, long-term cellar candidates, and drinkers. While I expect my best drinking experiences to come from properly-timed long-term cellar candidates, I think that the sum-total vinous pleasure I get from drinker vintages might surpass those few unicorns. My acquisition strategy has been to set myself up to be drinking yesteryear's long-term cellar candidates in my autumnal years. If I do it right, the sum will balance out.

Cheers,
fred
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#196 Post by Mike Miller »

Whichever one is currently on sale. Just as the producers!! It's the next vintage of the century. champagne.gif

Seriously, my gut tells me it will ultimately be 2009. But my head tells me that at 61, I won't be alive to verify my hunch. 2002 is hard to beat if you're my age.

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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#197 Post by Brady Daniels »

Mike Miller wrote: January 27th, 2021, 7:29 pm Seriously, my gut tells me it will ultimately be 2009. But my head tells me that at 61, I won't be alive to verify my hunch.
Yeah, this is why 44% of respondents love 2010. Open yesterday, delicious today, and sure to be great in twenty years. Perhaps many Berserkers are too practical to worry about “ultimately?”
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#198 Post by A Songeur »

Mike Miller wrote: January 27th, 2021, 7:29 pm Whichever one is currently on sale. Just as the producers!! It's the next vintage of the century. champagne.gif

Seriously, my gut tells me it will ultimately be 2009. But my head tells me that at 61, I won't be alive to verify my hunch. 2002 is hard to beat if you're my age.
?? What a pessimist! When you turn 70, 2009 will be 20 years old and 2005 25 years old... Your tasting buds won't be off by that time... and many 2009s will be drunk by that time...
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#199 Post by Peter Chiu »

Wonderful discussions. grouphug

****Worry less about vintage and more about producer. Find a few producers who make wines in a style you like and the rest will fall into place.****

I love what Howard said. [dance-clap.gif]

How great will the red from 2005 be....it is still too early to tell.

Most likely 2015 will be equal if not greater than 2005 due the fact that wine makers learned more from their experience from vintage 2005. Just my 2 cents.

Meadow rated the 2015 - for red from the Beaune - is the best since 1999 and the 2015 - for red from the nuits- is the best since 2005.
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#200 Post by Sh@n A »

How are peple thinking about higher alcohol 2019?
/ @ g r @ \

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