Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

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Top Red Burgundy vintage in the 21st century

2000
0
No votes
2001
2
1%
2002
12
5%
2003
2
1%
2004
4
2%
2005
50
22%
2006
1
0%
2007
0
No votes
2008
1
0%
2009
14
6%
2010
101
44%
2011
1
0%
2012
0
No votes
2013
0
No votes
2014
7
3%
2015
16
7%
2016
11
5%
2017
2
1%
2018
0
No votes
2019
5
2%
 
Total votes: 229

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Fred C
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#101 Post by Fred C »

Howard Cooper wrote: January 22nd, 2021, 5:18 pm
Fred C wrote: January 22nd, 2021, 5:11 pm
Mich@el Ch@ng wrote: January 22nd, 2021, 3:21 am

That's b/c it's a much better vintage than 13 and 14. However, I don't really know that it's priced that much more than 13/14. I've found 12 priced anywhere from 20-50% less than 2015 when IMO in the mid/long term it may end up being as good or better a vintage. Not sure about auction prices as I don't buy at auction.

Quick WSP search:

2012 DRC RSV $1699
2013 DRC RSV $1899
2014 DRC RSV $1699
2015 DRC RSV $2495

2012 Rousseau Beze $1495
2013 Rousseau Beze $1850
2014 Rousseau Beze $1849
2015 Rousseau Beze $2495

2012 La Tache $4000
2013 La Tache $3400
2014 La Tache $3500
2015 La Tache $4500
Only time will tell but I’m betting 13 and 14 end up better than 12 for both red and white. At least for my tastes.
I have not been opening better 13s or 14s lately so I cannot talk for them, but I have had a few really good 2012s this year. From what I have seen, the 2012s seem to be to be better than I thought they would be when I first tasted some when in Burgundy in 2013. As I said somewhere a number of posts up above, we have really been blessed since 1999. So many really good vintages. I don't have that much experience with 2013s, but either 2012 or 2014 would have been the second or at worst third best vintage in the 1970s (behind 1978 and maybe 1971).
13 and 14s seemed to have closed up hard for the most part although a 2014 Dujac Malconsorts recently was an explosion of complexity in both aroma and taste.

2014s were beautifully perfumed and elegant on release (especially Liger Belair) and I had the good fortune of drinking some 2013 Rousseau Chambertin and CSJ in Beaune after tasting 2016s at Dujac.

That probably explains my affinity for 2016 over 2015 and love for 2013/2014. Christophe Roumier likening 2013 to 1978 may also have influenced me.
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#102 Post by A1ex H »

Howard Cooper wrote: January 22nd, 2021, 11:03 am
Ian Dorin wrote: January 22nd, 2021, 10:36 am 2005s will last forever
I won't.

The issue to me is not which one lasts the longest but rather which one tastes best. I think there is some uncertainty for me and others as to when and if the 2005s will reach the potential we all originally thought. Do note, the vintage where I have the most reds is 2005 and second is 2010. But, I feel safer about the 2010s.
Howard, I really like this point. Sometimes it feels like we almost give great vintages credit if they are borderline undrinkable today because that must mean they'll be better in the long run. Perhaps that's true but it's really rewarding to be able to open decent premier crus 15 years after the vintage and enjoy the wines for what they are rather than what they could be. I really like that about 2010 and wish I had more wines from that vintage.
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#103 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng »

I like 09 for that; I’ve opened a bunch of 09 grand cru which have been delicious.

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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#104 Post by emile bond »

‘14 Confuron-Cotetidot NSG and Louis Boillot G-C Les Evocelles were not closed up recently. Sure, the wines with drink well for a decade more, but not sure there is much greater complexity ahead. Really enjoying ‘14 reds even if not as charming and complete as ‘17s.
Fred C wrote: January 22nd, 2021, 5:30 pm
Howard Cooper wrote: January 22nd, 2021, 5:18 pm
Fred C wrote: January 22nd, 2021, 5:11 pm

Only time will tell but I’m betting 13 and 14 end up better than 12 for both red and white. At least for my tastes.
I have not been opening better 13s or 14s lately so I cannot talk for them, but I have had a few really good 2012s this year. From what I have seen, the 2012s seem to be to be better than I thought they would be when I first tasted some when in Burgundy in 2013. As I said somewhere a number of posts up above, we have really been blessed since 1999. So many really good vintages. I don't have that much experience with 2013s, but either 2012 or 2014 would have been the second or at worst third best vintage in the 1970s (behind 1978 and maybe 1971).
13 and 14s seemed to have closed up hard for the most part although a 2014 Dujac Malconsorts recently was an explosion of complexity in both aroma and taste.

2014s were beautifully perfumed and elegant on release (especially Liger Belair) and I had the good fortune of drinking some 2013 Rousseau Chambertin and CSJ in Beaune after tasting 2016s at Dujac.

That probably explains my affinity for 2016 over 2015 and love for 2013/2014. Christophe Roumier likening 2013 to 1978 may also have influenced me.

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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#105 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng »

emile bond wrote: January 22nd, 2021, 8:22 pm ‘14 Confuron-Cotetidot NSG and Louis Boillot G-C Les Evocelles were not closed up recently. Sure, the wines with drink well for a decade more, but not sure there is much greater complexity ahead. Really enjoying ‘14 reds even if not as charming and complete as ‘17s.
Fred C wrote: January 22nd, 2021, 5:30 pm
Howard Cooper wrote: January 22nd, 2021, 5:18 pm

I have not been opening better 13s or 14s lately so I cannot talk for them, but I have had a few really good 2012s this year. From what I have seen, the 2012s seem to be to be better than I thought they would be when I first tasted some when in Burgundy in 2013. As I said somewhere a number of posts up above, we have really been blessed since 1999. So many really good vintages. I don't have that much experience with 2013s, but either 2012 or 2014 would have been the second or at worst third best vintage in the 1970s (behind 1978 and maybe 1971).
13 and 14s seemed to have closed up hard for the most part although a 2014 Dujac Malconsorts recently was an explosion of complexity in both aroma and taste.

2014s were beautifully perfumed and elegant on release (especially Liger Belair) and I had the good fortune of drinking some 2013 Rousseau Chambertin and CSJ in Beaune after tasting 2016s at Dujac.

That probably explains my affinity for 2016 over 2015 and love for 2013/2014. Christophe Roumier likening 2013 to 1978 may also have influenced me.
I opened a 14 Drouhin Laroze beze late last year and it was locked up tighter than Fort Knox.

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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#106 Post by Howard Cooper »

A1ex H wrote: January 22nd, 2021, 6:07 pm
Howard Cooper wrote: January 22nd, 2021, 11:03 am
Ian Dorin wrote: January 22nd, 2021, 10:36 am 2005s will last forever
I won't.

The issue to me is not which one lasts the longest but rather which one tastes best. I think there is some uncertainty for me and others as to when and if the 2005s will reach the potential we all originally thought. Do note, the vintage where I have the most reds is 2005 and second is 2010. But, I feel safer about the 2010s.
Howard, I really like this point. Sometimes it feels like we almost give great vintages credit if they are borderline undrinkable today because that must mean they'll be better in the long run. Perhaps that's true but it's really rewarding to be able to open decent premier crus 15 years after the vintage and enjoy the wines for what they are rather than what they could be. I really like that about 2010 and wish I had more wines from that vintage.
I sometimes wonder if any of us know exactly which vintages will age well. An awful lot of 1976s were hard all their lives and never really matured (although some were marvelous). See also vintages like 1975 and 1986 in Bordeaux. Some are great, but some never really have matured. I still think that 2005s will be fabulous. There still is a tremendous amount of fruit in the wines. But, to me, 2010 is the 1982 of Burgundy. Rich, with wonderful balance.
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#107 Post by Scott Brunson »

Mich@el Ch@ng wrote: January 22nd, 2021, 6:23 pm I like 09 for that; I’ve opened a bunch of 09 grand cru which have been delicious.
We had 09 Grivot Beau Monts last year—shut tight.
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#108 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng »

Scott Brunson wrote: January 23rd, 2021, 6:28 am
Mich@el Ch@ng wrote: January 22nd, 2021, 6:23 pm I like 09 for that; I’ve opened a bunch of 09 grand cru which have been delicious.
We had 09 Grivot Beau Monts last year—shut tight.
Yeah from 09 so far in the last year or so I’ve had:

Damoy Beze
Drouhin GE
Dominique Mugneret Echezeaux en orveaux
Maume Mazis
Rousseau CSJ
Angerville Ducs

All of them were drinking well but I feel like they’d all last a long time still. I’m deciding whether to open a Lambrays soon.

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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#109 Post by Greg K »

A really good discussion, but to circle up on a few thoughts in one post:

I think as William has repeatedly mentioned, going by vintage often obscures more than it reveals. I think that's especially true once we get to data points with specific wines, given that producer is (to me, at least) a bigger factor than vintage in Burgundy. That Liger Belair is open does not, to me, mean 2013s are open. Liger Belair is ALWAYS open. It's beautiful young, but I'd never characterize an entire vintage by his wines. Similarly, someone mentioned Confuron Cotetidot - I find their style overly extracted and oaky, but I'd also expect the wines to be more open, so wouldn't judge the vintage as a whole. Distinct data points regarding vintages can often be misleading, but often show how hard it is to make these judgments. I had a few of Rousseau's 2013s and 2010s last year; judging by that, 2013 is great and 2010 is closed. That has not generally been my experience otherwise :)

I understand the hesitation to declare 2010 a great vintage, because it seems too easy. The wines have fruit, tannin, acid, structure, but also drink well young. And I think Ian pointed out that he hasn't seen such a vintage since maybe 85. But isn't that what makes it a "vintage of the century"? That we have them so infrequently? That's why to me 2010 is the no brainer here - it's just great. There's no need for trade-offs, no need for the pain to get to the gain. I think people are worrying too much about finding faults with it, because the other vintage that was meant to be great, 2005, has often been downright unpleasant to actually drink for the last decade (a 2005 Barthod 1er is seared into my brain - but not as much as the acid was seared into my mouth that night).

I don't think 2017 is all that similar to 2010. I like 2017 a lot, and it's a lovely vintage (especially compared to 2018), but to me it doesn't remotely have the power or structure of 2010.
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#110 Post by Mel Knox »

I am reminded of the story about Henry Kissinger and Chou EnLai, when Kissinger asked the Chinese leader what he thought of the French Revolution.The answer?
'Too early to tell'

1971 is a good example. I never tasted it out of barrel but I remember people talking about its ripeness and richness out of barrel. 1972 arrived and it got mixed reviews and then the oil embargoes and the wine dumps. 1971 went to sleep. and nobody talked about it. 1972 kept getting better and better but the press didn't mention this and vintage charts were not positive.
So we sold lots of '72s for very low prices and people were happy. Now I keep reading how wonderful '71 is now.

With the 2005s I kept thinking, Hmm, is this another 1971? Great in barrel but perhaps lacking in something that will insure a long life?? Nonetheless I spent all my money on 2005 and have not been disappointed. But then around 2006/2007 Becky Wasserman and Millet told me they thought 2006 was more classic and better. I just discovered some '06 Lafarge wines in my cellar so I must have taken some of Becky's advice.

This vintage got one vote. Would somebody like to enlighten me on why I made a mistake in not buying more?? Or tell me I did the right thing...
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#111 Post by Brady Daniels »

Greg K wrote: January 23rd, 2021, 11:26 am I understand the hesitation to declare 2010 a great vintage, because it seems too easy.
My “concern” with 2010 is only with its longevity in comparison with other vintages. I suspect it will be surpassed in 20-30 years by the other notable vintages, and some folks consider longevity to be a key factor in greatness. But I put “concern” in quotes because I don’t own a grand manor, with a deep cellar in which I store wines bought for my progeny. I like wines that drink well in MY lifetime. So I chose 2010, even if vertical tastings in 2050 might show that '05, '09, or '15 were clearly superior.
Greg K wrote: January 23rd, 2021, 11:26 am I don't think 2017 is all that similar to 2010. I like 2017 a lot, and it's a lovely vintage (especially compared to 2018), but to me it doesn't remotely have the power or structure of 2010.
For me the difference between 2010 and 2017 is elegance. I like and am still buying 2017, but 2019 has a lightness and crystallinity that 2017 lacks. Lightness is probably not the right word, there is plenty of structure in 2010, it’s just always been less clumsy.
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#112 Post by Greg K »

Brady Daniels wrote: January 23rd, 2021, 12:14 pm
Greg K wrote: January 23rd, 2021, 11:26 am I understand the hesitation to declare 2010 a great vintage, because it seems too easy.
My “concern” with 2010 is only with its longevity in comparison with other vintages. I suspect it will be surpassed in 20-30 years by the other notable vintages, and some folks consider longevity to be a key factor in greatness. But I put “concern” in quotes because I don’t own a grand manor, with a deep cellar in which I store wines bought for my progeny. I like wines that drink well in MY lifetime. So I chose 2010, even if vertical tastings in 2050 might show that '05, '09, or '15 were clearly superior.
Greg K wrote: January 23rd, 2021, 11:26 am I don't think 2017 is all that similar to 2010. I like 2017 a lot, and it's a lovely vintage (especially compared to 2018), but to me it doesn't remotely have the power or structure of 2010.
For me the difference between 2010 and 2017 is elegance. I like and am still buying 2017, but 2019 has a lightness and crystallinity that 2017 lacks. Lightness is probably not the right word, there is plenty of structure in 2010, it’s just always been less clumsy.
I think people interpret "open early" as "not enough staying power". But I see no reason for that. Some 2016s are still wide open and drinking beautifully (Hubert Lignier's wines, I'm looking at you), and I have no doubt about their aging potential. If anything, I think 2010 and 2016 are considerably better bets for longer aging than 2009 and 2015 are, which are vintages to me that are a bit too hot and a bit overrated. 2005, who knows, but I've been banging that drum for a while.

To me the difference in 2010 and 2017 is concentration. 2017 is charming, while 2010 can still have precise fruit that's concentrated without being at all overripe.
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#113 Post by Robert Thornton »

I don’t know about best, but I’ve always had a soft spot for the more northern 2001 reds. But I haven’t had many of the more recent vintages

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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#114 Post by Mattstolz »

A1ex H wrote: January 22nd, 2021, 6:07 pm
Howard Cooper wrote: January 22nd, 2021, 11:03 am
Ian Dorin wrote: January 22nd, 2021, 10:36 am 2005s will last forever
I won't.

The issue to me is not which one lasts the longest but rather which one tastes best. I think there is some uncertainty for me and others as to when and if the 2005s will reach the potential we all originally thought. Do note, the vintage where I have the most reds is 2005 and second is 2010. But, I feel safer about the 2010s.
Howard, I really like this point. Sometimes it feels like we almost give great vintages credit if they are borderline undrinkable today because that must mean they'll be better in the long run. Perhaps that's true but it's really rewarding to be able to open decent premier crus 15 years after the vintage and enjoy the wines for what they are rather than what they could be. I really like that about 2010 and wish I had more wines from that vintage.
I was thinking the same thing as I have read through the comments on 2005 during this thread. coming from an admittedly early experience level with burgundy, I am not sure why a vintage that is still pretty much pleasureless 15 years after vintage would ever rate over a vintage that provides some actual pleasure at some point. sure, its great that three decades later they will be good but how many people will even actually get to experience that when it does? maybe im just thinking too democratically here, but a great vintage to me provides the most pleasure to the most people. so a vintage like 10 or 16, 17 where theyre already fun and delicious ranks over 2005 for me every time. especially since I don't see any of these wines from the last 10-15 years falling apart any time soon (with exceptions to prove me wrong, of course)

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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#115 Post by Ed Steinway »

45% for 2010 is impressive. If one is looking to backfill, this seems the vintage to do so.

Ed

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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#116 Post by Kent Comley »

Mel Knox wrote: January 23rd, 2021, 11:28 am I am reminded of the story about Henry Kissinger and Chou EnLai, when Kissinger asked the Chinese leader what he thought of the French Revolution.The answer?
'Too early to tell'

1971 is a good example. I never tasted it out of barrel but I remember people talking about its ripeness and richness out of barrel. 1972 arrived and it got mixed reviews and then the oil embargoes and the wine dumps. 1971 went to sleep. and nobody talked about it. 1972 kept getting better and better but the press didn't mention this and vintage charts were not positive.
So we sold lots of '72s for very low prices and people were happy. Now I keep reading how wonderful '71 is now.

With the 2005s I kept thinking, Hmm, is this another 1971? Great in barrel but perhaps lacking in something that will insure a long life?? Nonetheless I spent all my money on 2005 and have not been disappointed. But then around 2006/2007 Becky Wasserman and Millet told me they thought 2006 was more classic and better. I just discovered some '06 Lafarge wines in my cellar so I must have taken some of Becky's advice.

This vintage got one vote. Would somebody like to enlighten me on why I made a mistake in not buying more?? Or tell me I did the right thing...
I haven't opened an '06 for a while but recollection is that the wines are quite variable. Some are quite blocky and lack fruit richness and aromatics. I can't recall tasting an '06 and been blown away, although i probably only bought a few cases from the vintage. That said I prefer them to 03, 04, and 07.
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#117 Post by John Bashford »

This is a great and fascinating topic with an illuminating discussion. For me its 2005 but with Burgundy the saying 'there are no great wines, only great bottles' is at its most pertinent. Burgundy is so granular compared to the overall consistency of Bordeaux within and across appellations.
I would posit a few observations based on a fairly deep dive since the late 70s :
1. Its very hard to consider where any vintage less than 10 years of age sits in the hierarchy. I'm amazed at the transformation vintages such as 93, 95 and 96 have undergone after so many years sulking in my cellar. Our wine group is yet to review the 10s because our experience suggests that while they are beautifully structured the best 1ers and the GC are just too young.
2. The 05s are showing signs of greatness across the board. We reviewed 16 GCs from 2005 over 2 dinners in 2020 and found them young but uniformly excellent. At a La Tache 2000 - 2009 vertical in 2020 the 2005 was the wine that moved us all with the 2009 and 2002 each a squeak behind.
3. I've had some great surprises in every vintage except perhaps 2004 with 2000, 2001, 2003, 2006, 2009 having many highlights. 09 is particularly attractive to me and has been an often enchanting and pure white year.
4. Experience has made me reticent about opening many wines from 11 onwards unless they are offered to me simply because its too early to really judge or fully enjoy them. There seem to be many great wines in the making with 15, 16 and 17 looking good !
In summary Burgundy remains a region full of surprises and occasional big disappointments. I think patience and intellectual openness are the key to really understanding this region rather than too much focus on vintages. Having said that I'll think I'll try an 05 tonight !

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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#118 Post by Keith Levenberg »

Mattstolz wrote: January 23rd, 2021, 5:49 pmI was thinking the same thing as I have read through the comments on 2005 during this thread. coming from an admittedly early experience level with burgundy, I am not sure why a vintage that is still pretty much pleasureless 15 years after vintage would ever rate over a vintage that provides some actual pleasure at some point.
Ever had a '62, '64, or '66? or a '49? If you did and were told the wine wasn't very pleasurable at age 15, would that have detracted from your experience?

"Pleasureless" is a big overstatement anyway. There's plenty from the vintage giving pleasure, it's just that they have such a long and bright future it makes more sense to seek your pleasures elsewhere.

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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#119 Post by Howard Cooper »

Mattstolz wrote: January 23rd, 2021, 5:49 pm

I was thinking the same thing as I have read through the comments on 2005 during this thread. coming from an admittedly early experience level with burgundy, I am not sure why a vintage that is still pretty much pleasureless 15 years after vintage would ever rate over a vintage that provides some actual pleasure at some point. sure, its great that three decades later they will be good but how many people will even actually get to experience that when it does? maybe im just thinking too democratically here, but a great vintage to me provides the most pleasure to the most people. so a vintage like 10 or 16, 17 where theyre already fun and delicious ranks over 2005 for me every time. especially since I don't see any of these wines from the last 10-15 years falling apart any time soon (with exceptions to prove me wrong, of course)
At this point in time, I would not say 2005s are pleasureless. A number of lesser wines are quite good right now and many premier crus and grand crus are very pleasant to drink, but are still pretty primary and not yet developed.
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#120 Post by A.Gillette »

Robert Thornton wrote: January 23rd, 2021, 4:36 pm I don’t know about best, but I’ve always had a soft spot for the more northern 2001 reds. But I haven’t had many of the more recent vintages
Haven’t seen a Robert Thornton post in a while but it sure is nice to see one. One of the real expert burgundy voices from the old Parker board.

I think ‘17 looks better and better as the vintages that follow it start to come into focus because, well, the ‘17 wines taste like burgundy. I don’t think it’s a great vintage, but it sure is a nice respite from an otherwise unadulterated march toward the spit-roast. I don’t think it will make old bones and I think part of the reason people think so highly of it is because it’s delicious right now. That is a probably a good thing.

I don’t love ‘16 but a few of the producers that I love seem to have missed. As a broad generalization, the wines seem over-concentrated. Maybe that will serve them well in later life. I hope so.

‘15 is brilliant for me and I think it always will be.

I can’t get a great relative read on ‘12, ‘13 or ‘14 yet but I think they are worth owning and will give lots of pleasure. I suppose if you only want “the best” then they are vintages to skip. I didn’t skip and I think all 3 vintages look like “value” (for burgundy) in retrospect.

15’ or ‘10 are leading the pack in this century for my money. I can’t get a good read on ‘09 because it’s my wedding year so I’m always reluctant to open one unless it’s an anniversary and then it doesn’t really seem to matter what I’m drinking. ‘05 is great and I’ve found many of the wines to be drinking well now. ‘04 is the only vintage that is wholesale not worth owning. ‘03 isn’t for me as the wines seem roasted on the inside but raw at the core. ‘02 is fine. I don’t think ‘01 has lived up to the promise that it once had because it seemed to transparent and elegant. The wines are fine.

I suppose quite a bit of this discussion and the differences in opinion vary depending on the producers that you buy and the style that you like.

A
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#121 Post by Josh Grossman »

I heard it is going to be 2020!

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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#122 Post by Robert Thornton »

A.Gillette wrote: January 23rd, 2021, 8:17 pm I think ‘17 looks better and better as the vintages that follow it start to come into focus because, well, the ‘17 wines taste like burgundy. I don’t think it’s a great vintage, but it sure is a nice respite from an otherwise unadulterated march toward the spit-roast. I don’t think it will make old bones and I think part of the reason people think so highly of it is because it’s delicious right now. That is a probably a good thing.
This really makes me want some ‘17s!

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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#123 Post by Howard Cooper »

Robert Thornton wrote: January 23rd, 2021, 4:36 pm I don’t know about best, but I’ve always had a soft spot for the more northern 2001 reds. But I haven’t had many of the more recent vintages
Welcome back Robert. It is great to see you posting here again.

And, yes, I agree with you about 2001s. This may be one of the most underrated vintages I can remember. The vintage got trashed at the beginning and I could never see why. We took our kids to France in 2002 and I got one day in Burgundy (TGV from Paris in the morning; TGV back to Paris in the evening). So, I made the most of it and visited Truchot for the first time. Tasted the 2001s from barrel and was really surprised with how much I liked them (still love his 2001s). Somehow, despite the wonderful wines available from this vintage (and which were well priced for a long time), it still is very underrated with a lot of vintages that I don't think are superior to the 2001s (and in many cases inferior) getting more love in this poll. I must admit I do not understand why 2002 and 2014 are getting more votes than 2001.
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#124 Post by William Kelley »

Josh Grossman wrote: January 23rd, 2021, 8:29 pm I heard it is going to be 2020!
You joke, but 2020 does seem to be a promising vintage... though it may be a bit uneven as the weather in the run up to harvest was extreme. My 2020s are lower in alcohol than my 2019s and 2018s, and I think that is quite common up and down the Côte. But, we will see!
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#125 Post by rob klafter »

Great thread.
I voted 2010.
made me think to put up a listing in CC today.
Anyone interested in a Mixed Case of 2010 DRC
Make me move pricing!!!!
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#126 Post by Mel Knox »

Kent,

Thanks for making me feel better about not loading up on '06s.
My '05s have not gone to sleep and a lot are showing well now.
I seem to be unable to load up on two vintages in a row, kinda like being offered a turkey sandwich an hour after having put the Thanksgiving turkey away.
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#127 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng »

06 and 08 are sort of the mystery vintages for me. Not 100% sure what to think about them. I love 07.

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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#128 Post by Mattstolz »

Keith Levenberg wrote: January 23rd, 2021, 7:02 pm
Mattstolz wrote: January 23rd, 2021, 5:49 pmI was thinking the same thing as I have read through the comments on 2005 during this thread. coming from an admittedly early experience level with burgundy, I am not sure why a vintage that is still pretty much pleasureless 15 years after vintage would ever rate over a vintage that provides some actual pleasure at some point.
Ever had a '62, '64, or '66? or a '49? If you did and were told the wine wasn't very pleasurable at age 15, would that have detracted from your experience?

"Pleasureless" is a big overstatement anyway. There's plenty from the vintage giving pleasure, it's just that they have such a long and bright future it makes more sense to seek your pleasures elsewhere.
I haven't had any of those. but I guess thats kind of my point. I am sure if I DID have them, they would be great. but I haven't and in all likelihood never will. so how great will those vintages ever be to me? If I was drinking wine in the 60s and 70s when those wines might have been available to me, thats when I would have cared how great they seemed to me. in the same vein, today I would rank vintages as great if I will get to experience that greatness in my wine-drinking lifetime.

I realize this is a definition thing and a subjective thing to some degree. but I guess my point is, which is really worth more? speculated greatness or experienced greatness? is greatness a question of how many people were blown away by it when they opened it, assuming that most people will open their 2005s before theyre ready and only a few will get to see that greatness, or only by the very peak of that vintage, even if its only experienced by a very select few in the entire life of that vintages wine?

I can see the need for ranking them both ways if I'm being totally honest. its important to know the highest highs of a region even if inaccessible (especially the case with burgundy where that can be easily true). but I think there's a real place for which vintage just makes the most people happy to drink.

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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#129 Post by Sh@n A »

William Kelley wrote: January 24th, 2021, 6:56 am You joke, but 2020 does seem to be a promising vintage... though it may be a bit uneven as the weather in the run up to harvest was extreme. My 2020s are lower in alcohol than my 2019s and 2018s, and I think that is quite common up and down the Côte. But, we will see!
Darn it I went deep 2019...
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#130 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng »

Sh@n A wrote: January 24th, 2021, 12:05 pm
William Kelley wrote: January 24th, 2021, 6:56 am You joke, but 2020 does seem to be a promising vintage... though it may be a bit uneven as the weather in the run up to harvest was extreme. My 2020s are lower in alcohol than my 2019s and 2018s, and I think that is quite common up and down the Côte. But, we will see!
Darn it I went deep 2019...
Don’t think you’ll regret it.

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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#131 Post by Mattstolz »

so am I reading this thread wrong when I say that since 2014 we have basically had some flavor of good to very good every year in burgundy?

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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#132 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng »

Mattstolz wrote: January 24th, 2021, 12:58 pm so am I reading this thread wrong when I say that since 2014 we have basically had some flavor of good to very good every year in burgundy?
Ever since 12.

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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#133 Post by Greg K »

Mattstolz wrote: January 24th, 2021, 12:58 pm so am I reading this thread wrong when I say that since 2014 we have basically had some flavor of good to very good every year in burgundy?
I'd say there are plenty of people who will disagree with respect to 2018.
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#134 Post by Greg K »

Keith Levenberg wrote: January 23rd, 2021, 7:02 pm
Mattstolz wrote: January 23rd, 2021, 5:49 pmI was thinking the same thing as I have read through the comments on 2005 during this thread. coming from an admittedly early experience level with burgundy, I am not sure why a vintage that is still pretty much pleasureless 15 years after vintage would ever rate over a vintage that provides some actual pleasure at some point.
Ever had a '62, '64, or '66? or a '49? If you did and were told the wine wasn't very pleasurable at age 15, would that have detracted from your experience?
I really don't think this is the defense of 2005 that some people think it is. "Don't worry, 2005 is like those vintages that you've never had where the wine eventually came good after decades" is not something that gives me any comfort. First, it might not be - the 96s certainly have not come around, in my opinion. Vintages are different, and 2005 might not be like any of 62, 64, 66 or 49. Second, as Keynes (and others) have pointed out, in the long run we are all dead. I will get no pleasure out of my 2005s being opened by a future Francois Audouze in 2121. Third, there is negative carry. Not only do I have to pay to store my 05s, there are other wines I don't own because I own the 05s.

Does that mean I think 05 is a bad vintage? No, of course not. But the fact that it's been mostly unpleasant to drink for almost a decade is certainly a factor in debating whether or not it's the best vintage of the last 20 years.
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#135 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng »

Greg K wrote: January 24th, 2021, 2:24 pm
Mattstolz wrote: January 24th, 2021, 12:58 pm so am I reading this thread wrong when I say that since 2014 we have basically had some flavor of good to very good every year in burgundy?
I'd say there are plenty of people who will disagree with respect to 2018.
I think in the long run it’s almost certain they’ll be wrong, though.

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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#136 Post by Greg K »

Mich@el Ch@ng wrote: January 24th, 2021, 2:31 pm
Greg K wrote: January 24th, 2021, 2:24 pm
Mattstolz wrote: January 24th, 2021, 12:58 pm so am I reading this thread wrong when I say that since 2014 we have basically had some flavor of good to very good every year in burgundy?
I'd say there are plenty of people who will disagree with respect to 2018.
I think in the long run it’s almost certain they’ll be wrong, though.
I very strongly disagree with that. It is incredibly far from certain they will be wrong.
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#137 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng »

That 18 is good to very good? If the bar is 13 I’m sure it qualifies. It might not be as good as 15 or 10 but it’s certainly a good vintage where lesser appellations will shine because of ripeness. The top producers like lachaux are amazing IMO.

Some producers like Marc Roy are fantastic, significantly better than 17. I’ve liked the Clerget wines from bottle more as well
Last edited by Mich@el Ch@ng on January 24th, 2021, 2:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#138 Post by Howard Cooper »

I am kind of fascinated with the five people who have voted for 2019. Obviously, these wines are still in barrel and very few wines have even been released yet. What have you tasted from barrel that has had you convinced that this is the best vintage. For me, Burgundies change so much the first couple of years that it would be hard to ever rate a vintage that is a bit over a year old as the worst or the best. I have not tasted any 2019 yet so I am more curious than anything else.
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#139 Post by Greg K »

Mich@el Ch@ng wrote: January 24th, 2021, 2:31 pm
That 18 is good to very good? If the bar is 13 I’m sure it qualifies. It might not be as good as 15 or 10 but it’s certainly a good vintage where lesser appellations will shine because of ripeness. The top producers like lachaux are amazing IMO.
Yes, I keep posting that I do not agree with this, and strongly. That Arnoux Lachaux made good wines in 2018 doesn't mean it's a good vintage. Plenty of good producers made bad wines. I also don't think ripeness has been an issue recently - you don't need a vintage like 2018 for lesser appellations to do well.

When I was tasting 2018s in barrel, one producer noted that 2018 reminded him of 2003. Not a great comparison!
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#140 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng »

Greg K wrote: January 24th, 2021, 2:59 pm
Mich@el Ch@ng wrote: January 24th, 2021, 2:31 pm
That 18 is good to very good? If the bar is 13 I’m sure it qualifies. It might not be as good as 15 or 10 but it’s certainly a good vintage where lesser appellations will shine because of ripeness. The top producers like lachaux are amazing IMO.
Yes, I keep posting that I do not agree with this, and strongly. That Arnoux Lachaux made good wines in 2018 doesn't mean it's a good vintage. Plenty of good producers made bad wines. I also don't think ripeness has been an issue recently - you don't need a vintage like 2018 for lesser appellations to do well.

When I was tasting 2018s in barrel, one producer noted that 2018 reminded him of 2003. Not a great comparison!
I think producers have learned to handle hot weather better since 2003. We will see. I think in the long run 18 will end up being fantastic and won’t hesitate to load up if there’s deals. Unfortunately prices haven’t been great with tariffs.

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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#141 Post by A.Gillette »

^ I’m with Greg on this one. There are some ‘18s that really show their alcohol. Seems far from a sure thing to me. It seems like too nuanced of a vintage to make a proclamation of a greatness right now, but I sure hope it turns out great.
A
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#142 Post by Fred C »

Mattstolz wrote: January 24th, 2021, 12:58 pm so am I reading this thread wrong when I say that since 2014 we have basically had some flavor of good to very good every year in burgundy?
Since 2000 pretty much the only vintages that I absolutely avoid are 04 and 11. Top end 03 can be good to very good.

I also avoid 06 as my experiences have not been great in either color. May be a 95 situation though so who knows.
Last edited by Fred C on January 24th, 2021, 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#143 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng »

A.Gillette wrote: January 24th, 2021, 3:38 pm ^ I’m with Greg on this one. There are some ‘18s that really show their alcohol. Seems far from a sure thing to me. It seems like too nuanced of a vintage to make a proclamation of a greatness right now, but I sure hope it turns out great.
A
That’s fair, but the bar was 13 and I think it’s a much better vintage than 13.

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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#144 Post by A.Gillette »

Mich@el Ch@ng wrote: January 24th, 2021, 3:39 pm
A.Gillette wrote: January 24th, 2021, 3:38 pm ^ I’m with Greg on this one. There are some ‘18s that really show their alcohol. Seems far from a sure thing to me. It seems like too nuanced of a vintage to make a proclamation of a greatness right now, but I sure hope it turns out great.
A
That’s fair, but the bar was 13 and I think it’s a much better vintage than 13.
I’m not sure it’s better than ‘12, ‘13 or ‘14. I think there is a pretty dramatic style to the ‘18s and I think a lot of folks may find that they just don’t like it. I’ve had some wines that are above 14% alcohol and they show it. That’s just something fundamentally different than what I’ve typically looked for in burgundy. So it isn’t clear to me that as a general matter, I will prefer the wines in ‘18 over something like ‘13, where are find the wines to be consistent with my expectations, even if not as astonishing as some other vintages of the same wine may be.
A
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#145 Post by Jay Miller »

Greg K wrote: January 24th, 2021, 2:31 pm
Keith Levenberg wrote: January 23rd, 2021, 7:02 pm
Mattstolz wrote: January 23rd, 2021, 5:49 pmI was thinking the same thing as I have read through the comments on 2005 during this thread. coming from an admittedly early experience level with burgundy, I am not sure why a vintage that is still pretty much pleasureless 15 years after vintage would ever rate over a vintage that provides some actual pleasure at some point.
Ever had a '62, '64, or '66? or a '49? If you did and were told the wine wasn't very pleasurable at age 15, would that have detracted from your experience?
I really don't think this is the defense of 2005 that some people think it is. "Don't worry, 2005 is like those vintages that you've never had where the wine eventually came good after decades" is not something that gives me any comfort. First, it might not be - the 96s certainly have not come around, in my opinion. Vintages are different, and 2005 might not be like any of 62, 64, 66 or 49. Second, as Keynes (and others) have pointed out, in the long run we are all dead. I will get no pleasure out of my 2005s being opened by a future Francois Audouze in 2121. Third, there is negative carry. Not only do I have to pay to store my 05s, there are other wines I don't own because I own the 05s.

Does that mean I think 05 is a bad vintage? No, of course not. But the fact that it's been mostly unpleasant to drink for almost a decade is certainly a factor in debating whether or not it's the best vintage of the last 20 years.
But the fact that it has followed the same pattern as pretty much any other good Burgundy vintage (shutting down for quite a while) makes it very likely that it will come around. Personally based on how they showed on release I think they'll start being pretty great in a decade or so just as the 93s started being consistently great a few years ago. But time will tell.

Mich@el Ch@ng wrote: January 24th, 2021, 11:59 am 06 and 08 are sort of the mystery vintages for me. Not 100% sure what to think about them. I love 07.
06 varied a lot from region to region. The problems in Volnay were pretty well documented (07 more than made up for that for Volnay lovers) but conversely I loved everything I tried from NSG. In other regions I liked pretty much everything without being wowed but time will tell. I haven't tried any recently.

08 I liked a lot overall. The sort of medium bodied balanced vintage which IMO will coast effortlessly for years once it opens back up again. But, you guessed it, time will tell.
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#146 Post by Greg K »

Mich@el Ch@ng wrote: January 24th, 2021, 3:39 pm
A.Gillette wrote: January 24th, 2021, 3:38 pm ^ I’m with Greg on this one. There are some ‘18s that really show their alcohol. Seems far from a sure thing to me. It seems like too nuanced of a vintage to make a proclamation of a greatness right now, but I sure hope it turns out great.
A
That’s fair, but the bar was 13 and I think it’s a much better vintage than 13.
And, as I keep saying, plenty of people do not. I’ve passed on a number of allocations because the wines are close to undrinkable for my palate.

Could I be wrong? Sure! And I hope for the people loading up on 18s that I am. But I think making declarative claims about the greatness of awfulness of 18 is very presumptuous. Most professional reviews I’ve seen have pointed to a mixed vintage, for example. So it’s entirely possible for some people’s palate this will not be a great vintage.
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#147 Post by Greg K »

Jay Miller wrote: January 24th, 2021, 3:48 pm
Greg K wrote: January 24th, 2021, 2:31 pm
Keith Levenberg wrote: January 23rd, 2021, 7:02 pm
Ever had a '62, '64, or '66? or a '49? If you did and were told the wine wasn't very pleasurable at age 15, would that have detracted from your experience?
I really don't think this is the defense of 2005 that some people think it is. "Don't worry, 2005 is like those vintages that you've never had where the wine eventually came good after decades" is not something that gives me any comfort. First, it might not be - the 96s certainly have not come around, in my opinion. Vintages are different, and 2005 might not be like any of 62, 64, 66 or 49. Second, as Keynes (and others) have pointed out, in the long run we are all dead. I will get no pleasure out of my 2005s being opened by a future Francois Audouze in 2121. Third, there is negative carry. Not only do I have to pay to store my 05s, there are other wines I don't own because I own the 05s.

Does that mean I think 05 is a bad vintage? No, of course not. But the fact that it's been mostly unpleasant to drink for almost a decade is certainly a factor in debating whether or not it's the best vintage of the last 20 years.
But the fact that it has followed the same pattern as pretty much any other good Burgundy vintage (shutting down for quite a while) makes it very likely that it will come around. Personally based on how they showed on release I think they'll start being pretty great in a decade or so just as the 93s started being consistently great a few years ago. But time will tell.
To be clear - I’d rank 2005 3rd. So it’s not as if I think it’s a bad vintage. But it’s neither a sure thing nor enjoyable now.

I think the 93s, from what admittedly little I’ve had over the past 5 years, came around sooner than a few years ago, but I suspect yours were better stored - I was backfilling. :)
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#148 Post by Ed Steinway »

2010 has more than twice as many votes as any other vintage. This thread has a lot of good information for those aspiring to learn more about Burgundy, like I am. Thanks for putting the poll up, Howard!

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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#149 Post by Alan Rath »

Mich@el Ch@ng wrote: January 24th, 2021, 3:39 pm
A.Gillette wrote: January 24th, 2021, 3:38 pm ^ I’m with Greg on this one. There are some ‘18s that really show their alcohol. Seems far from a sure thing to me. It seems like too nuanced of a vintage to make a proclamation of a greatness right now, but I sure hope it turns out great.
A
That’s fair, but the bar was 13 and I think it’s a much better vintage than 13.
Based on my limited tasting (though enough to form what I think are valid impressions), I'd take many 13s over 18s, particularly factoring in price.
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Re: Top Red Burgundy vintage of the 21st century so far

#150 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng »

I’m happy to trade my 13 and 14 DRC, Liger Belair, Mugneret Gibourg, Arnoux-Lachaux and Rousseau for 18s once they’re released, not that I imagine I’ll find many takers.

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