2 Questions about aging rosé

[Noah C]

Hi everyone,

1- Why is it that rosé typically does not age well past a year or two? 2- Any recommendations for rosés that improve with age? Never had one and I'm curious. I've heard Chateau Simone is a good one that ages well.

Thanks!

[G. Bienstock]

I like my rose 2 to 3 years post vintage. A 10 year old Pinot Noir Rose from Clos Saron is the best that I have had.

[Ryan Gilmour]

I had a 2011 Cayuse Edith Rose in the summer of 2019 (actually calling back to the current berserker generosity thread, it was a gift from a fellow berserker) and I really enjoyed it. Because of that experience I'm aging a few Clos Cibonne Tibouren rose now, little cheaper and easier to find than the Simone I found.

[Dale Williams]

The roses from the Cotat cousins age well. Like 20 years
LdH, Ch Simone as well (latter Ive never had more than 10 years)
Baudry, Edmunds St John last several years but not sure they really improve
But mostly I drink in first 1-2 years

[Kevin Sidders]

My favorite is Domaine de la Mordoree Tavel la Dame Rousse (just below the top covee Tavel La Reine des Bois). For me ~5 years post vintage is the sweet spot, but I've enjoyed them as much as 10 years post-vintage and found them delicious.

[Anthony Sanford]

As others have mentioned, I also like many of my roses with a few years on them. The LdHs that I have had have been amazing regardless of how old they are. Recently, I opened a 2014 LF rose that was, quite frankly, better than on release IMO. To me, it comes down to how they are made.

[Wes Barton]

Hi everyone,

1- Why is it that rosé typically does not age well past a year or two? 2- Any recommendations for rosés that improve with age? Never had one and I'm curious. I've heard Chateau Simone is a good one that ages well.

Thanks!

Most just aren't made that way, but if made along the lines of an ageworthy white, they certainly can age. They need acid, structure and substance. A lot of rose is made from bled off juice, a byproduct of increasing the skin-to-juice ratio of the "real" wine. A lot of those don't have as much acid as one would like, but may get an acid add. They tend to be substandard, but some from great sites not picked too ripe can be excellent. The common Provencal type roses are both picked early and heavily cropped. Those have the acid, but not the substance - underdeveloped and dilute - that would be the precursor compounds to tertiary development. You really want to be picking for rose to dial it in properly. Depending what you're working with, blending can help - both grape varieties and ripeness level.

I have some 40 year-old California Pinot Noir rose that's drinking well. Really good acid, massive SO2, oak aged. It's a fun novelty, not an otherwise profound wine.

[M Mager]

Just opened a 2007 Tempier rose last night. I suspect many would not have enjoyed it, but I sure did. "Mature" rose. Then again, I absolutely love the RLdH Rose's. Still rationing my stash of those from the 90s.

[James Billy]

Rosé wines are the only class of wine that don't generally age well in my experience. Most reds and white age remarkably well in comparison.

Of course there are exceptions listed in the previous posts. These really are the exceptions, not the norm.

[Peter Hirsch]

For me it's not what I use rose for. It's served in mass quantities during the summer heat, goes down like water and is refreshingly delicious.

[IlkkaL]

We had a "tasting" of more cellar worthy rosés a couple of years ago: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=161641

What was missing - could not source it at the time no matter how much we wanted - are the rosés of Clos Cibonne in Provence. Not sure about the entry level bottling but the pricier ones can improve over 10+ years.

[Robert Sand]

Rose' will not really improve with age, but taste simply different, less fresh, a bit more round and deep.
Depending on ones preference, some friends drink them only young ... and when made with really short skin contact and soft pressing it also can get dull soon, needing a bit of tannins.

I have Mordoree Tavel RdB and 2-3 Bandols between 4 and 10 years, they usually age well, but I m no great rose' drinker at all.

[Kirk.Grant]

• 1995 Chateau Musar Rosé - Lebanon, Bekaa Valley (9/24/2017)
  NIGHT ONE: I didn't honestly have high hopes for this after the last bottle we opened on my birthday last year. However...this is just in a lovely spot. It's actually more like a mature version of the blanc right now. Scents of beeswax, yellow delicious apples, and cherimoya...the nose on this is exotic!! On the palate there's a hint of dried strawberries, orange marmalade, and star fruit. The finish is long and complex, framed by the high acidity this was just about perfect with salami & a pasta dish with fresh oregano, olive oil, and diced tomatoes with some African blue basil salt. At 22 years old...this still seems like it has plenty of room to age in the cellar. It's been open now for 3+ hours and there's no signs of fading or falling apart...I think I might even save some to taste tomorrow and see if it shows as well as some of the blancs do on day two. An extraordinary rosé for those that love rosé and the geekier side of wine...just lovely.
• 1995 Chateau Musar Rosé - Lebanon, Bekaa Valley (9/25/2017)
  NIGHT TWO: At this point, this wine has been open for 26 hours. Scents of green bananas, brown butter, toffee, and camomile tea are most notable on the nose. The palate is showing slight signs of oxidation with a prickling tart of acidity leading into notes of lime, kiwi, and kumquat on the palate...this wine is a completely different monster tonight!!! I'm sold...such an epic wine. It's like a completely different wine tonight...and I love it still. Med+ acidity, med+ fruit, with a medium length, highly complex finish. Epic juice...this is the best Rosé that I've had. Wow...just wow. Unfortunately this won't be lasting another night...it's just too damn good right now. If you have some of this...you're very lucky.
  

Posted from CellarTracker

[Ethan Abraham]

Strangest rose aging experience I had was a sandlands one that got lost in the fridge. After a bunch of years it just tasted like...nothing.

[GregT]

Hi everyone,

1- Why is it that rosé typically does not age well past a year or two?

As Wes said, it depends on how it's made.

Some are made by bleeding off some juice for a red wine to concentrate the red. That means the grapes were picked at optimal ripeness for the red, not for the rosé.

Some are made by mixing red and white, although for some reason that's increasingly discouraged, but it makes as much sense as making any blend.

And some are made by picking red grapes specifically to make a rosé. Those are the ones that would have the most promise, but like always, it depends on what kind of rosé you want to make. If you want a slightly soft and sweet version, you make that. If you want a lean and mean one you make that. And if you do, and if you have the acidity to keep it alive and also sufficient ripeness to give it some flavor to make it good, you may have an age-worthy rosé. In that sense it's no different from any other wine.

Given the market, it's probably just as well to make a rosé that won't really age since people don't expect it anyway. A lot is made in France and Spain to be consumed as a simple summer wine. And I suppose it should be said that a lot of it, perhaps most of it, is made from Grenache, which tends not to have a lot of acid or tannic structure. That's what people expect and that's what they buy.

But other grapes can be far more interesting IMHO. Pinot Noir for example. If I had my way I'd encourage almost all of it to be used for rosé to eliminate some of the dreck that gets bottled as red wine. And other grapes make really interesting rosé too - my current fave is a very cheap Syrah-based rosé, but I've had some good ones from Sangiovese, Nebbiolo, and Monastrell.

But if you want to take a chance on some, I'd try aging some of Larry's as a start.

[Alexia Hupin]

As a few members already said, rosé is generally made in a way that it's fruity and refreshing.
That's why it's mostly seen as a wine to drink in its youth so you can enjoy it fruity and fresh. That would be the case for a classic Provence rosé for instance.

However, there are a few rosé wines that are made with more concentration thanks to the grapes used and the vinification process, as stated in the previous answers. For example, "Rosé de saignée" or oaked rosés. Since they're more intense and concentrated, they can handle more ageing.

To be able to age, a wine needs several things:
- structure: good levels of acidity, alcohol, sugar or tannins
- concentrated aromas and flavours
- aromas and flavours that have an interest to develop over time (dried fruit, mushroom,...)

Typical French examples I can think of are wines from Tavel AOC (dark colour, good concentration - Domaine Florence Méjan, Domaine de la Mordorée) and Bandol AOC (I've tasted a Domaine de Terrebrune 2005 which still was incredible). I know some producers in Côtes de Provence AOC are also working on age-worthy oaked rosés, like Château Mentone.
There's also a rosé I adore from the Rioja DOCa in Spain: Vina Tondonia Gran Reserva! It's typically aged in barrels and in bottle before being released, so fully developed when arriving on the market.

[Jud Reis]

To piggyback on Alexia’s comment, I have had some Bandols, particularly Terrebrune, that have aged beautifully 10 years or more and pick up a more complex, darker brooding element to them. Very different than most young roses. I love Tempier with a few years of age, but don’t think they age as well for long term.

[Otto Forsberg]

There's also a rosé I adore from the Rioja DOCa in Spain: Vina Tondonia Gran Reserva! It's typically aged in barrels and in bottle before being released, so fully developed when arriving on the market.

Tondonia GR Rosado is truly a spectacular wine that drinks wonderfully soon after release, but I'd argue it's definitely not fully developed when arriving on the market, seeing how it can continue to improve for many years - even decades - after release.

[Jeremy Holmes]

Bruno Clair's 2014 is drinking really well right now. Cotat makes truly agewortyhy rosé.

[larry schaffer]

I think that there are so many factors that come into play here that it's really difficult to give a 'succinct' answer.

IF you prefer lots of fruit and bright acidity, you'll want to enjoy almost every rose within a year

IF you prefer more texture in your rose, perhaps less fruit, and even some 'earthiness', you'll have to find producers who make their wines in this style. To me, it comes down to varietal character and 'intent'. For instance, I don't think Grenache-based roses tend to age nicely, but because of the extraction they get in Tavel, those ones do.

Cheers.

[Jason L.]

I like my rose 2 to 3 years post vintage. A 10 year old Pinot Noir Rose from Clos Saron is the best that I have had.

when i first read this i thought "that's not very modest of you, Gideon!" but then i realized the mistake I'd made.

[Nola Palomar]

My Rose is predominantly Tempranillo at 85% and Garnacha 15%. It holds quite well.

[brigcampbell]

To be able to age, a wine needs several things:
- structure: good levels of acidity, alcohol, sugar or tannins
- concentrated aromas and flavours
- aromas and flavours that have an interest to develop over time (dried fruit, mushroom,...)

howdy,

Regarding structure, I'll support acidity and sugar being significant factors in age worthiness. And I'm strongly in the acid camp for dry wines.

My thoughts, not sure about alcohol or tannins. Sure tannins will take time to resolve but that might be a bad thing, it's not adding to the aging capability. Not sure what to make of alcohol because some very low alcohol wines age for every (German) and high ABV not so much (aussie)

[Rich K0rz€nk0]

• 1995 Chateau Musar Rosé - Lebanon, Bekaa Valley (9/24/2017)
  NIGHT ONE: I didn't honestly have high hopes for this after the last bottle we opened on my birthday last year. However...this is just in a lovely spot. It's actually more like a mature version of the blanc right now. Scents of beeswax, yellow delicious apples, and cherimoya...the nose on this is exotic!! On the palate there's a hint of dried strawberries, orange marmalade, and star fruit. The finish is long and complex, framed by the high acidity this was just about perfect with salami & a pasta dish with fresh oregano, olive oil, and diced tomatoes with some African blue basil salt. At 22 years old...this still seems like it has plenty of room to age in the cellar. It's been open now for 3+ hours and there's no signs of fading or falling apart...I think I might even save some to taste tomorrow and see if it shows as well as some of the blancs do on day two. An extraordinary rosé for those that love rosé and the geekier side of wine...just lovely.
• 1995 Chateau Musar Rosé - Lebanon, Bekaa Valley (9/25/2017)
  NIGHT TWO: At this point, this wine has been open for 26 hours. Scents of green bananas, brown butter, toffee, and camomile tea are most notable on the nose. The palate is showing slight signs of oxidation with a prickling tart of acidity leading into notes of lime, kiwi, and kumquat on the palate...this wine is a completely different monster tonight!!! I'm sold...such an epic wine. It's like a completely different wine tonight...and I love it still. Med+ acidity, med+ fruit, with a medium length, highly complex finish. Epic juice...this is the best Rosé that I've had. Wow...just wow. Unfortunately this won't be lasting another night...it's just too damn good right now. If you have some of this...you're very lucky.
  

Posted from CellarTracker

This was exactly one of the bottles I was thinking of. Over 20 years old and held strong for 2 nights. That's impressive. Great notes.

[G. Bienstock]

I like my rose 2 to 3 years post vintage. A 10 year old Pinot Noir Rose from Clos Saron is the best that I have had.

when i first read this i thought "that's not very modest of you, Gideon!" but then i realized the mistake I'd made.

LOL!

[dbailey]

As others noted, Cotat’s roses age well. Another one that really needs ageing is the clos de lambrays rose.

[ATaylor]

Terrebrune Bandol Rosés: I have been fortunate enough to have had tasted many of these going up to 20 yrs and some of the old ones have been stunning wines. Blindfold someone and let them come up to cellar temp. In most vintages these can go 5 to 7 without even giving a second thought.

[Alexia Hupin]

There's also a rosé I adore from the Rioja DOCa in Spain: Vina Tondonia Gran Reserva! It's typically aged in barrels and in bottle before being released, so fully developed when arriving on the market.

Tondonia GR Rosado is truly a spectacular wine that drinks wonderfully soon after release, but I'd argue it's definitely not fully developed when arriving on the market, seeing how it can continue to improve for many years - even decades - after release.

It's supposed to be fully developed when arriving on the markets due to tertiary aroma characteristics that are fully present in the profile of the wine.
But indeed, it can be kept for some time after reaching the market due to its high quality and concentration

[Alexia Hupin]

To be able to age, a wine needs several things:
- structure: good levels of acidity, alcohol, sugar or tannins
- concentrated aromas and flavours
- aromas and flavours that have an interest to develop over time (dried fruit, mushroom,...)

howdy,

Regarding structure, I'll support acidity and sugar being significant factors in age worthiness. And I'm strongly in the acid camp for dry wines.

My thoughts, not sure about alcohol or tannins. Sure tannins will take time to resolve but that might be a bad thing, it's not adding to the aging capability. Not sure what to make of alcohol because some very low alcohol wines age for every (German) and high ABV not so much (aussie)

German low-alcohol wines that age for a very long time generally have acidity and/or sugar to be able to do so.
And the high-alcohol Aussie wines that don't age for a very long time is mainly due to the fact that the rest of what a wine needs to age is simply not there.

The wines generally need to have some of the characteristics stated in my post to be able to age, not all of them.

[Markus S]

I like roses at between 4-16 years, but they have to be the right ones.

[Otto Forsberg]

It's supposed to be fully developed when arriving on the markets due to tertiary aroma characteristics that are fully present in the profile of the wine.
But indeed, it can be kept for some time after reaching the market due to its high quality and concentration

Still, no. It can be kept, of course, but not only does it keep, but it also continues to improve - as do all the Heredia wines. They are not "fully developed" when arriving on the market even though they certainly possess a rather tertiary overall character and they are definitely more developed than, say, young Rioja reds, whites or Rosados. However, I think calling them "fully developed" upon release is incorrect, because that would suggest they wouldn't develop any further - which definitely is not the case.

[Scott Brunson]

Collioure from Traginer

[M Mager]

It's supposed to be fully developed when arriving on the markets due to tertiary aroma characteristics that are fully present in the profile of the wine.
But indeed, it can be kept for some time after reaching the market due to its high quality and concentration

Still, no. It can be kept, of course, but not only does it keep, but it also continues to improve - as do all the Heredia wines. They are not "fully developed" when arriving on the market even though they certainly possess a rather tertiary overall character and they are definitely more developed than, say, young Rioja reds, whites or Rosados. However, I think calling them "fully developed" upon release is incorrect, because that would suggest they wouldn't develop any further - which definitely is not the case.

Otto, I have to agree with your comments above. When I read the comment you were responding to above, it didn't ring true to my experiences. Perhaps I don't understand what specifically was meant by "... fully developed ...". If that was simply intended to mean the wine exhibits tertiary characteristics at time of release, then I certainly agree. If it meant that the wine was at it's peak of complexity at time of release (which I'm inferring, given the added note of "... can be kept for some time after reaching market ..."), then I would strongly dispute that statement. I can't imagine someone whose tasted some of the older vintages recently making that claim. They do much more than just "keep/hold" after release; they continue to develop and improve with added time in the cellar.

I'm still slowly rationing down my remaining stash of Y2K and prior vintages of the Rosado. Last year, pulled one of my '95s, and it was absolutely spectacular. Quite frankly, the longer I age them, the less confident I am in predicting the ultimate aging curve. But I am confident that they aren't at peak at release.

Michael

[Steve Brickley]

I buy a case of Cotat’s Chavignol rose and keep three bottles for aging. I haven’t done this for long. Yesterday we had a 2016 and it is coming along well.