Help me understand Thierry Allemand Cornas Reynard

[Jeff Rosenberg]

Today’s email from Morrell offered 2015 Thierry Allemand Cornas Reynard for $375/bottle. This seems crazy to me. For reference, at this moment, I am enjoying the heck out of a 2015 Big Basin Rattlesnake Vineyard Syrah at $50/ bottle. Is the Allemand that good?

[Jay Miller]

It is one of the best N. Rhone wines made. That said, I stopped buying when it crossed the $150 mark.

[Mich@el Ch@ng]

If anything it’s underpriced. Most people would consider it the best wine in its region. How much are the best wines in bdx, burgundy, Barolo, Napa, etc?

[Stan Y.]

It's the only northern Rhone producer other than Chave and Verset where I've had a laugh-out-loud wine epiphany sort of experience, and Chave has charged that and more on release for many years.

[Justin Bonner]

Wholesale was $185 so quite the markup but Kermit has been hiking prices like crazy. Wholesale on the 2017 went to $235. But.....based on quality.......I'd say it's fair though not sure what that even means anymore.

[Markus S]

Better than Rattlesnake, but you got to spend your coin to find out...

[Jeremy Holmes]

Hi Jeff,

To me, Allemand are the most enjoyable of all the Northern Rhones. You actually pay less for more (I don't know if that makes sense). They are ethereal, perfumed and have a track record of aging. You get some misses but the highs are higher than Joe Cocker.

They were once way under-valued. I still reckon they are under-valued and Thierry is not far off retirement.

Cheers
Jeremy

[brigcampbell]

Today’s email from Morrell offered 2015 Thierry Allemand Cornas Reynard for $375/bottle. This seems crazy to me. For reference, at this moment, I am enjoying the heck out of a 2015 Big Basin Rattlesnake Vineyard Syrah at $50/ bottle. Is the Allemand that good?

Hey Jeff,

I love Rattlesnake, probably tasted 5 or 6 vintages and a fan of Bradley's across the board.

When you start talking Allemand or Chave it's just a different game. My wife is not a fan. The charcoal, intensity, and black olive. Cool stuff.

You can find nice bottles of Cornas in the 50-60 range if you know a good local wine shop that'll give you an idea of the style.

To put it in reference, Chave's family has been making wine in hermitage since the 1400's.

Unfortunately, these classic standard bearers are out of reach for most now. Add to the list with big name white burg, DRC, and Rayas.

[Craig G]

It's the only northern Rhone producer other than Chave and Verset where I've had a laugh-out-loud wine epiphany sort of experience, and Chave has charged that and more on release for many years.

Chave on release is still under $300. But I’m not sure the prices you see for Allemand reflect any normal markup.

[Greg K]

It's the only northern Rhone producer other than Chave and Verset where I've had a laugh-out-loud wine epiphany sort of experience, and Chave has charged that and more on release for many years.

Yes, this. And post 1999 Chave doesn’t come all that close, especially for early drinking. At worst (unless corked), Allemand is good. At best it’s spectacular and certainly the closest northern Rhône currently gets to Burgundy, if you like that sort of thing. It can be an ethereal wine, which isn’t something I’d say of Syrah and I think easily the best wine being made in the northern Rhône today.

[R@f@el A.]

How does the Allemand Chaillot, which I understand is made from younger wines, compare to the Reynard?

[Jeff Rosenberg]

Now I want to see for myself. It would be interesting to include it in a blind Northern Rhône styled Syrah tasting.

[Jay Miller]

Now I want to see for myself. It would be interesting to include it in a blind Northern Rhône styled Syrah tasting.

If you've never had it and can afford it then by all means you should do so. I don't think anyone can argue that it isn't one of the great wines of the world.

I'm lucky that nathan introduced me to them with the 1994 vintage so I have a small but adequate stock.

[John Morris]

Wholesale was $185 so quite the markup but Kermit has been hiking prices like crazy. Wholesale on the 2017 went to $235. But.....based on quality.......I'd say it's fair though not sure what that even means anymore.

Was that due in part to the tariff? Looks very close to a 25% increase -- the tariff rate.

[William Kelley]

Wholesale was $185 so quite the markup but Kermit has been hiking prices like crazy. Wholesale on the 2017 went to $235. But.....based on quality.......I'd say it's fair though not sure what that even means anymore.

Was that due in part to the tariff? Looks very close to a 25% increase -- the tariff rate.

Ex-domaine it's 50 EUR to private clients, so I don't think the tariff has much to do with it.

[YLee]

Wholesale was $185 so quite the markup but Kermit has been hiking prices like crazy. Wholesale on the 2017 went to $235. But.....based on quality.......I'd say it's fair though not sure what that even means anymore.

Was that due in part to the tariff? Looks very close to a 25% increase -- the tariff rate.

Ex-domaine it's 50 EUR to private clients, so I don't think the tariff has much to do with it.

[Frank Drew]

Some people here are simply price insensitive, but I envy those lucky private clients who pay 1/6 of what’s asked here.

[Alain M]

Meh.
Lol @ underpriced at $375. Are you nuts?

Same as Gonon, it is one of this board's darling. It is certainly very good, but not THAT good. People are just caught in the hype.

I tasted a Reynards 2005 three weeks ago and volatile was just unbearable. We were 8 that night and we didn't finish the bottle.

Go ahead if you have the $$$ and want to know what the fuss is about. Just don't expect to fall head over heels. To me, it is certainly not in the same league as Rayas or Vega Sicilia or a great Barolo etc. And I love Northern Rhône as much as anyone.

Les goûts et les couleurs...

Alain

[Greg K]

Meh.
Lol @ underpriced at $375. Are you nuts?

Same as Gonon, it is one of this board's darling. It is certainly very good, but not THAT good. People are just caught in the hype.

I tasted a Reynards 2005 three weeks ago and volatile was just unbearable. We were 8 that night and we didn't finish the bottle.

Go ahead if you have the $$$ and want to know what the fuss is about. Just don't expect to fall head over heels. To me, it is certainly not in the same league as Rayas or Vega Sicilia or a great Barolo etc. And I love Northern Rhône as much as anyone.

Les goûts et les couleurs...

Alain

You are right, it’s not in the same league as Rayas or Vega Sicilia, it’s better. Also, judging northern Rhônes by 05s is.....odd. And I just had the 05 Reynard on Christmas too.

[c fu]

Meh.
Lol @ underpriced at $375. Are you nuts?

Same as Gonon, it is one of this board's darling. It is certainly very good, but not THAT good. People are just caught in the hype.

I tasted a Reynards 2005 three weeks ago and volatile was just unbearable. We were 8 that night and we didn't finish the bottle.

Go ahead if you have the $$$ and want to know what the fuss is about. Just don't expect to fall head over heels. To me, it is certainly not in the same league as Rayas or Vega Sicilia or a great Barolo etc. And I love Northern Rhône as much as anyone.

Les goûts et les couleurs...

Alain

You are right, it’s not in the same league as Rayas or Vega Sicilia, it’s better. Also, judging northern Rhônes by 05s is.....odd. And I just had the 05 Reynard on Christmas too.

05 Reynard might be one of my favorite Allemand to date. Also I think if someone thinks Vega Sicilia is better than Allemand, Allemand might not be in their target wheelhouse. Guigal LaLas on the other hand might. lol.

But Allemand does have VA issues. But allemand isn't really a "board darling". It's a world wide darling ha.

[Greg K]

Meh.
Lol @ underpriced at $375. Are you nuts?

Same as Gonon, it is one of this board's darling. It is certainly very good, but not THAT good. People are just caught in the hype.

I tasted a Reynards 2005 three weeks ago and volatile was just unbearable. We were 8 that night and we didn't finish the bottle.

Go ahead if you have the $$$ and want to know what the fuss is about. Just don't expect to fall head over heels. To me, it is certainly not in the same league as Rayas or Vega Sicilia or a great Barolo etc. And I love Northern Rhône as much as anyone.

Les goûts et les couleurs...

Alain

You are right, it’s not in the same league as Rayas or Vega Sicilia, it’s better. Also, judging northern Rhônes by 05s is.....odd. And I just had the 05 Reynard on Christmas too.

05 Reynard might be one of my favorite Allemand to date. Also I think if someone thinks Vega Sicilia is better than Allemand, Allemand might not be in their target wheelhouse. Guigal LaLas on the other hand might. lol.

But Allemand does have VA issues. But allemand isn't really a "board darling". It's a world wide darling ha.

I’ve always thought the 05 is just too monolithic right now for a Reynard; even with a 6 hour decant at Christmas. I’ve always preferred the 04 and the 06 for current drinking, and the 14 is delicious from pop and pour.

But overall, yeah, it’s miles better than Vega Sicilia.

[Marshall Manning]

How does the Allemand Chaillot, which I understand is made from younger wines, compare to the Reynard?

The Reynard has always been a little deeper, darker and more structured, as you might expect. Everyone clamors after the Reynard because it's "the best", but the Chaillot is still far better than most other Cornas. If it's in your price range, don't shy away from it.

[Greg K]

How does the Allemand Chaillot, which I understand is made from younger wines, compare to the Reynard?

The Reynard has always been a little deeper, darker and more structured, as you might expect. Everyone clamors after the Reynard because it's "the best", but the Chaillot is still far better than most other Cornas. If it's in your price range, don't shy away from it.

The only reason I’ve stopped buying the Chaillot is that it’s not almost the same price as the Reynard, and I’d rather have the Reynard. It’s a terrific wine, no question.

[MikeL238]

Any experiences with '11 and '12 Reynards?

[Greg K]

Any experiences with '11 and '12 Reynards?

I’ve found the 11 to be in a weird place; it’s unusually massive (especially for the vintage) and can throw up a lot of green. The 12 is just lovely after a few hours in a decanter.

[P@u1_M3nk3s]

I had an 05 Reynard about 6 months ago and it was... underwhelming. Reminded me of Jasmin. Good stuff but not mind-blowing.

[Robert Sand]

You are right, it’s not in the same league as Rayas or Vega Sicilia, it’s better. Also, judging northern Rhônes by 05s is.....odd. And I just had the 05 Reynard on Christmas too.

It's good to have kind of a believe, even if it's off.
We had 3 vintages of Reynard in October, and the group was far from excited ... very good wines nevertheless, but not overwhelming nor stunning.

[Greg K]

You are right, it’s not in the same league as Rayas or Vega Sicilia, it’s better. Also, judging northern Rhônes by 05s is.....odd. And I just had the 05 Reynard on Christmas too.

It's good to have kind of a believe, even if it's off.
We had 3 vintages of Reynard in October, and the group was far from excited ... very good wines nevertheless, but not overwhelming nor stunning.

How nice for you. We had an Allemand retrospective in October and other than a couple of wines they were stunning. Someone brought a Rayas, too. For once it wasn’t corked or off, but it was fine.

[Markus S]

I had an 05 Reynard about 6 months ago and it was... underwhelming. Reminded me of Jasmin. Good stuff but not mind-blowing.

Surprised by this. 05 Jasmin was nice, delicate wine. A recent Chaillot 05 was not kind and certainly glad I didn't have more bottles.

[Ramon C]

Back when I was still buying Allemand, when they cost < 70, I skipped the 2005 Reynard as I wasn't impressed after tasting it then, but bought/stored the vintages around it. The 2004 Reynard is starting to round into an impressive Cornas when I tasted early last year. The 2000 and 2003 are still young to my taste. I'm hoping to get to the 2006 that I have handy at the home wine fridge before the end of this winter.

Btw, I've always regarded Allemand as one of the most elegant, polished of Cornas, especially when compared to old-school ones by Verset and Clape. Now, I'm going with Juge as the most polished/elegant of Cornas, whose style others here seem to prefer more.

[Alan Rath]

I love Allemand, and have been tasting and buying it for years (though that has mostly come to an end, with scarcity and increased price). I think it’s one of the top Syrah wines in the world. Having said that, I wouldn’t argue that it’s the “best”, or head and shoulders above every other producer. I have often tasted new releases of Allemand, Clape, and Chave side by side (in the past, but not for a few years now). There were years where every one of them shined a little brighter than the others, and there are numerous other producers I think that can show at the same level.

If I had never had Allemand before, I’d probably be willing to shell out the $300+ it takes to get a bottle these days, just to try it (note: Reynard is a step up from Chaillot); but I think pricing (at least in the U.S.) has made the equation difficult to justify continued purchase of future vintages, at least in any quantity. I’ll get some push back from a few here, I know, but I’d have to argue the best bang for the buck in northern Rhone today is Clape and Jamet at the high end.

But honestly, given where prices have gone, and the quality you can get from some domestic Syrah producers today, my focus has been more on domestic than Rhone in the past few years.

To put things in perspective, I refer back to this blind tasting from a few years ago

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=140830

[Jayson Cohen]

Comparing Allemand Reynards with Vega Sicilia Unico (pre-1991?) and Rayas to opine on which is better is sort of like comparing Bach, Coltrane, and The Beatles. Why?

In any case they can all be profound and often are.

[Jeff D a v i e s]

I have tried a few Allemand. 2012 Reynard was corked. 2006 Chaillot was great and up there with some of the best wine experiences I recall. 2009 Reynard was very good, but left me underwhelmed vs. expectation. On other "big name" Syrah, I tried the 2005 Chave and found it good but not excellent.. am hoping it is just to young. I have some Sine Qua Non from 2010 onwards, that I found excellent (but a bit over the top for me and in this case I am not sure aging these will change that) and some that have been not to my liking at all (I like the EBA better). Had some of a friend's Grange once - it was excellent, mid 2000's bottling I recall. Have had some Clape and Jamet but recent vintages and promising but not ready.

Others from the US I have enjoyed over the years are Peay, Arcadian, the later being excellent as they age (2000 and 2001 Garys).

I will continue to try and pick up a few Allemand to learn more, but at the prices they now fetch will just be a bottle here and there. Do people find bottle variation with his wines?

Cheers

[Kelly Walker]

Put me down as an unabashed Allemand fan-boy. Had my first experience back when Cornas as a whole was considered French hillbilly juice. Years ago my friend Kevin and I popped into Willi's Wine Bar in Paris. Saw that they had Allemand on the list. Asked the girl behind the bar which wines they had in the cellar. She went down to look and came back saying she had magnums of both 2015 Reynard and Chaillot. Between us we took them all at French prices. Still have some of those bottles in the cellar along with subsequent numerous vintages. Some of my best Rhone experiences along with Chave and Rayas.

[Alain M]

Comparing Allemand Reynards with Vega Sicilia Unico (pre-1991?) and Rayas to opine on which is better is sort of like comparing Bach, Coltrane, and The Beatles. Why?

In any case they can all be profound and often are.

My point was not to compare Allemand to these other wines, I was merely pointing out other producers that imo are way more unique than Reynards or Chaillots. I wouldn't mind shelling out $400 for these for a very specific event, but I wouldn't pay half that for any Allemand. Last vintage I bought was 2011 and I paid 65€ for Chaillots and 75€ for Reynards. After that I didn't feel I was getting my money's worth, and even now I wouldn't buy more at that price.

Again, to each his own, YMMV.

Alain

[Peter Valiquette]

I was blessed to share a bottle of 2014 Reynard with some friends about two years ago now. It was a stunning wine even in an supposedly weaker vintage.

Hands down the best Syrah I’ve ever encountered. Perfect balance and amazing perfume.

I was happy to buy bottles of 2016 and 2017 Reynard when they were offered to me.

[Otto Forsberg]

Put me down as an unabashed Allemand fan-boy. Had my first experience back when Cornas as a whole was considered French hillbilly juice. Years ago my friend Kevin and I popped into Willi's Wine Bar in Paris. Saw that they had Allemand on the list. Asked the girl behind the bar which wines they had in the cellar. She went down to look and came back saying she had magnums of both 2015 Reynard and Chaillot. Between us we took them all at French prices. Still have some of those bottles in the cellar along with subsequent numerous vintages. Some of my best Rhone experiences along with Chave and Rayas.

Years ago - vintages of 2015? Is this "years ago" like two years ago?

[Markus S]

Put me down as an unabashed Allemand fan-boy. Had my first experience back when Cornas as a whole was considered French hillbilly juice. Years ago my friend Kevin and I popped into Willi's Wine Bar in Paris. Saw that they had Allemand on the list. Asked the girl behind the bar which wines they had in the cellar. She went down to look and came back saying she had magnums of both 2015 Reynard and Chaillot. Between us we took them all at French prices. Still have some of those bottles in the cellar along with subsequent numerous vintages. Some of my best Rhone experiences along with Chave and Rayas.

Years ago - vintages of 2015? Is this "years ago" like two years ago?

Time is a great distorter. For some of us more distorted than others.

[Bradley Brown]

Hey Jeffrey,

I am a huge fan of Allemand, as well as other like Jamet, Gonon, Chave, but it seems many other folks have discovered them too and prices have risen quickly. I bought a 6 pack of 2006 Allemand from Rare Wine Company years ago for under $85/bottle and now as you say it has risen to $375. My opinion is that a number of winemakers in N. Cal. with near-Coastal vineyards and rocky hillsides are producing some epic Syrah that in blind tastings sometimes outperforms the big names, at way lower prices. Pax, Arnot-Roberts, Halcon, Drew, and others are making savory, whole cluster Syrahs that rock.
- Bradley

[Kelly Walker]

Put me down as an unabashed Allemand fan-boy. Had my first experience back when Cornas as a whole was considered French hillbilly juice. Years ago my friend Kevin and I popped into Willi's Wine Bar in Paris. Saw that they had Allemand on the list. Asked the girl behind the bar which wines they had in the cellar. She went down to look and came back saying she had magnums of both 2015 Reynard and Chaillot. Between us we took them all at French prices. Still have some of those bottles in the cellar along with subsequent numerous vintages. Some of my best Rhone experiences along with Chave and Rayas.

Years ago - vintages of 2015? Is this "years ago" like two years ago?

Time is a great distorter. For some of us more distorted than others.

Ha Ha. 2005

[Markus S]

Years ago - vintages of 2015? Is this "years ago" like two years ago?

Time is a great distorter. For some of us more distorted than others.

Ha Ha. 2005

ah, there 'ya go!

[Marcus Goodfellow]

Now I want to see for myself. It would be interesting to include it in a blind Northern Rhône styled Syrah tasting.

Sometime’s it’s interesting to compare styles and value with blind tastings, but I think you would be leaving experience on the table using Allemand in a blind tasting. Whether it’s worth it compared to other Syrahs is just a subjective experience(YMMV). But every person who posted in this thread about how special Allemand wines are probably came to that conclusion just by drinking a great wine.

The Allemand wines are more ethereal and nuanced than a lot of modern Syrah. And in a line up with higher alcohol wines, I would wonder what was being lost.

Drinking a bottle of Reynard by itself with time for appreciation and thought seems like a much better way to give the wine and yourself the best opportunity to understand and validate the experience. Especially at $375/bottle.

Blind tastings are a little bit like a dunk contest. While truly great players can usually dunk, it’s not what makes them champions.

[Jay Miller]

Oh, and if you're opening a young wine I'd give a good decant. Probably at least an hour.

[Claus Jeppesen]

Hi Jeff,

To me, Allemand are the most enjoyable of all the Northern Rhones. You actually pay less for more (I don't know if that makes sense). They are ethereal, perfumed and have a track record of aging. You get some misses but the highs are higher than Joe Cocker.

They were once way under-valued. I still reckon they are under-valued and Thierry is not far off retirement.

Cheers
Jeremy

Jeremy spot on

[Claus Jeppesen]

Years ago - vintages of 2015? Is this "years ago" like two years ago?

Time is a great distorter. For some of us more distorted than others.

Ha Ha. 1995

FIFY
Allemand needs at least 20 years

[Jason L.]

Lots of interesting perspective here! I personally love Allemand wines (and Syrah from everywhere, with about equal affection) but the current price tag has doubled and doubled again in the past half-decade. That correlates to fashion and scarcity and for me, arguments about it being worth it have to include the satisfaction that comes from having "landed it." That said, there are definitely some people for whom Allemand scratches the itch where nothing else will!

[c fu]

Now I want to see for myself. It would be interesting to include it in a blind Northern Rhône styled Syrah tasting.

Sometime’s it’s interesting to compare styles and value with blind tastings, but I think you would be leaving experience on the table using Allemand in a blind tasting. Whether it’s worth it compared to other Syrahs is just a subjective experience(YMMV). But every person who posted in this thread about how special Allemand wines are probably came to that conclusion just by drinking a great wine.

The Allemand wines are more ethereal and nuanced than a lot of modern Syrah. And in a line up with higher alcohol wines, I would wonder what was being lost.

Drinking a bottle of Reynard by itself with time for appreciation and thought seems like a much better way to give the wine and yourself the best opportunity to understand and validate the experience. Especially at $375/bottle.

Blind tastings are a little bit like a dunk contest. While truly great players can usually dunk, it’s not what makes them champions.

well said - and not only applicable to allemand. I feel like when we drink wine blind (at least a tasting of blind wines) we tend to move too fast cause we want to just find out what the wines are. Don't give it proper time and thought.

We had a dinner pre covid where it was 8 blind wines - winner doesn't pay for dinner. And everyone wanted to vote within 20 minutes. What's even the point?

[Brian G r a f s t r o m]

Now I want to see for myself. It would be interesting to include it in a blind Northern Rhône styled Syrah tasting.

Sometime’s it’s interesting to compare styles and value with blind tastings, but I think you would be leaving experience on the table using Allemand in a blind tasting. Whether it’s worth it compared to other Syrahs is just a subjective experience(YMMV). But every person who posted in this thread about how special Allemand wines are probably came to that conclusion just by drinking a great wine.

The Allemand wines are more ethereal and nuanced than a lot of modern Syrah. And in a line up with higher alcohol wines, I would wonder what was being lost.

Drinking a bottle of Reynard by itself with time for appreciation and thought seems like a much better way to give the wine and yourself the best opportunity to understand and validate the experience. Especially at $375/bottle.

Blind tastings are a little bit like a dunk contest. While truly great players can usually dunk, it’s not what makes them champions.

well said - and not only applicable to allemand. I feel like when we drink wine blind (at least a tasting of blind wines) we tend to move too fast cause we want to just find out what the wines are. Don't give it proper time and thought.

We had a dinner pre covid where it was 8 blind wines - winner doesn't pay for dinner. And everyone wanted to vote within 20 minutes. What's even the point?

To figure out who's ordering the steak, lobster, and caviar.

[m. ristev]

Lots of interesting perspective here! I personally love Allemand wines (and Syrah from everywhere, with about equal affection) but the current price tag has doubled and doubled again in the past half-decade. That correlates to fashion and scarcity and for me, arguments about it being worth it have to include the satisfaction that comes from having "landed it." That said, there are definitely some people for whom Allemand scratches the itch where nothing else will!

this is the truth right here. the op could be in for a massive disappointment if they are coming into it thinking it will somehow be ~7x better than the new world syrah they are already content with. not to mention there is always a chance for a bit of brett or volatility.

[Greg K]

Lots of interesting perspective here! I personally love Allemand wines (and Syrah from everywhere, with about equal affection) but the current price tag has doubled and doubled again in the past half-decade. That correlates to fashion and scarcity and for me, arguments about it being worth it have to include the satisfaction that comes from having "landed it." That said, there are definitely some people for whom Allemand scratches the itch where nothing else will!

this is the truth right here. the op could be in for a massive disappointment if they are coming into it thinking it will somehow be ~7x better than the new world syrah they are already content with. not to mention there is always a chance for a bit of brett or volatility.

I don’t know a single person that loves Allemand that thinks it’s seven times better than another good Cornas.