How good is the 2005 Burgundy vintage

[William Kelley]

William have you tasted the 2004s from Domaine Leroy, and if so what’s your opinion on them? Do they defy the vintage reputation?

Yes. They are among the better 2004s but one can see why Lalou declassified them.

[John Morris]

But how long do we wait? What happens in the meantime?

Aren’t you still waiting on a lot of 1999s? (I am.) So you probably wait at least that long.

To put the waiting game into context, didn’t you wait (patiently?) for 1970 and 1975 Bordeaux? Aren’t you still waiting (patiently?) for 1986 and 1995 Bordeaux? ...

Lots of 70 Bordeaux drank beautifully in the mid-80s -- and I mean beautifully. Palmer, Lynch-Bages and Pichon-Lalande come to mind.

[Jerry Hey]

2005 Mugnier Marechale is showing beautifully right now.

Agree and I'm not a Mugnier fan.

[Greg K]

2005 Mugnier Marechale is showing beautifully right now.

I've had this wine a few times recently, and compared to Mugnier's Chambolle it's still pretty tight to me. But then, it's Mugnier; post 2000, it's incredibly rare to have a closed bottle. A bit like Fourrier in that regard.

[Michael S. Monie]

2005 Mugnier Marechale is showing beautifully right now.

I've had this wine a few times recently, and compared to Mugnier's Chambolle it's still pretty tight to me. But then, it's Mugnier; post 2000, it's incredibly rare to have a closed bottle. A bit like Fourrier in that regard.

The one I had today was smooth as silk with gobbs of fruit, but not much tertiary.

[Tomás Costa]

Since we're on the subject, I'd love to know how Chandon de Briailles' wines from the vintage are showing... I own the Clos du Roi.

[William Kelley]

2005 Mugnier Marechale is showing beautifully right now.

I've had this wine a few times recently, and compared to Mugnier's Chambolle it's still pretty tight to me. But then, it's Mugnier; post 2000, it's incredibly rare to have a closed bottle. A bit like Fourrier in that regard.

The one I had today was smooth as silk with gobbs of fruit, but not much tertiary.

Yes, it is very demonstrative! I remember drinking a bottle of it in 2016 with Becky Wasserman, and my initial surprise that anyone would have the temerity to open a 2005 was rapidly assuaged by how delicious it was. It will be brilliant in a decade, and the 2015 from barrel was a dead ringer for the 2005.

[A.Gillette]

2005 Mugnier Marechale is showing beautifully right now.

The 2005 mugnier marechale and chambolle are so lovely right now that I was tempted to open a Fuees but decided to hold back.

[Tom Blach]

As a very broad generalisation, if one really wants to enjoy red burgundy without waiting thirty years one should buy the less 'good' vintages.

[Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow]

Can't argue with you, Tom. The 1990 vintage is now, IMO, at its best. The '93 (I'm not as keen on this vintage as a great one; just had a '93 Clos St. Denis that was pretty acidic and the fruit ok+); the '99s just, arguably, maturing/mature...barely; beyond that....still too much potential to "waste them". Wish I had known all this...in 1983 or even in 1993--- but....long age is what morphs the best vintages into greatness....and, to me, has done the same for 1983...prob not a "great" vintage ....as it was inconsistent...as, IMO, was 1993, ie, not universally good.

[Gaudissabois Johan]

Friends,

Tom Blach made a very good point. I sometimes wonder why so many people flock to get hold of bottles from the so-called "great vintages" and neglect others that give much more pleasure even from let us carefully say "the start". 2000,20001,2006 and 2007 gave me lots of enjoyment on the early side. Provided you stick to the good domaines but there are so many of them...The question "is it a great vintage" pops up far too often in my opinion when talking about wine. Of course 1999 is great but too many of them were drunk far too soon. I want, however, to quote the great Christophe Roumier here :"you either drink them shortly after bottling or leave them otherwise for many many years." (on a visit to the domaine to taste the 96s and 1997s but talking about when to drink your Burgundies) Who am I to disscuss....

SINCERELY JOHAN

[Tomás Costa]

I want, however, to quote the great Christophe Roumier here :"you either drink them shortly after bottling or leave them otherwise for many many years." (on a visit to the domaine to taste the 96s and 1997s but talking about when to drink your Burgundies) Who am I to disscuss....

SINCERELY JOHAN

Is this just as true for more recent vintages, though? One of my WOTY in 2020 was a singing 2010.

[J. Galang]

As a very broad generalisation, if one really wants to enjoy red burgundy without waiting thirty years one should buy the less 'good' vintages.

I would revise that and say buy earlier maturing vintages. I have found 2007 and 2017's as earlier drinking in general compared to big vintages like 2005 and 1999. "Less good" does not necessarily translate to earlier drinking, sometimes they are just not good period. Also, I would avoid buying grand crus as in general they take the longest to mature, a village wine from an excellent producer can achieve great heights in my opinion, given enough time.

[Larry Link]

Wish I had clipped the threads from the old board from the height of the '05 buying frenzy when many people wisely predicted, "You know, in 10 or 15 years these are going to be shut down tight and you're all going to call them overrated"

So the apologia was built into the plaudits?

I think we taste and scrutinize ripe vintages much more critically than was the case fifteen years ago—sometimes, indeed, too critically. I wonder how 2005 would be received today? Especially were it to have emerged in a context where—as was the case until a few days ago in the US—honestly labelling of alcohol levels was actually incentivized.

Several of the best red Burgundies I drank this year were from the 1980 vintage. On release, it was panned by the press—to the extent that there was a press—and shunned by the négociants. Forty years later, it looks as if the 1980 La Tâche might be the best of the decade, and I'm not convinced that the 1978 would surpass it side by side. Meanwhile, how did the celebrated 1976s fare?

Tasting Burgundy from barrel is a very tricky business, and as time passes, and the wines evolve, our tastes change too.

The problem is that vintage reputations become self-sustaining. How many people reading this have vastly more '05s in their cellar than '06s, '07s or '08s? To say nothing of '04s. Yet how many 2005s are as exciting to drink as Engel's 2004s? But once a vintage is established as "great", excuses are made, whereas the "weaker" vintages are seldom revisited and reappraised. I am all for forgetting age-wines in which one has faith in the cellar, so these observations are made more in support of other lesser years than to disparage 2005, but at the end of the day, there is a lot to be said for buying some wine every year and not fixating unduly on vintage.

One of my favorite wines was a 1980 DRC Grands Echezeaux (paid $35 for it).

I understand the idea of buying from multiple vintages, etc., and it makes a lot of sense, but is 2004 really the vintage for which you want to make that point? Sure there are a few good wines there, but there are so many dogs and from top producers.

Agree Howard on 2004. I can't remember who quipped "the best part about tasting 2004 red burgundy is spitting them out", but they nailed my thoughts on the vintage!

[Joe D]

The big question in my mind right now is not how good 2005 is, but how good 2015 is relative to surrounding vintages. That's the most relevant question for purchasers right now. Meadows hailed 2015 as best since 2005 (better than 09/10) and another GOAT candidate but I'm not sure I see it yet. Perhaps we should start another thread on vintages more generally.

That is when I stopped reading Burghound.

Better late than never!

[billnanson]

Great - but more than intermittently slow to come around. The better 1999s are only just now starting to blossom, some 1996s and 1993s not yet - so I have no worries...

Bill, it’s interesting you compare it to 96 - do you think they’re similar vintages?

Personally I have a bit of a fear that 2005 will go the way of 96, which I don’t find to be a great vintage at all.....

In style, not at all Greg. I just lumped together diverse vintages that will repay patience - that's their only link, I think... A Recent (summer) 96 Grivot Richebourg was the greatest wine of that vintage I tasted - simply fabulous. I could say better than La Tache in 96 - but I drank that LT more than 10 years ago - so not really a valid comparison.

[Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow]

If I can suggest.... you/we all need to clarify what we're talking about in rating vintages-- and wines. It's very important to know the criteria you use..and how you rate a "great" vintage. It also depends on what you are buying...trophier wines only; across the board in a vintage; etc etc.....

Re: Christophe Roumier's statement: I think what he is saying is that they take forever to show their best. If you want to see them at a good stage you can try [ie, waste their potential] after bottling when they're sitting around after bottling to rest before shipping out. But, what he's really saying is give them many many years...whatever that means. I trust Christophe on this...I've known him since a visit in 1988; visited him many times (even took his house keys to Paris by accident in 1992; I offered to take him to Springsteen's [terrific "Human Touch/ Lucky Town"] concerts there then as a amends, but....). He is particularly well versed on how wines evolve...as he travels and participates in tastings involving his wines and those of others in the region. The problem is with such things...is knowing how he likes them...and, whether he even likes to drink older wines in non-business situations. It's all mindboggling...if you don't figure out your criteria...and your goals. Finding the "perfect" time to drink something...is a concept...not a realistic goal, IMO. And, that assumes that you can appreciate that stage if you encounter it....not always the case.

But, figure out your goals and criteria first, I say. Don't use others' goals or collective goals or something you read about.

I've had many wines that I've aged that I've loved and hated....and some I'd wished I had drunk them a decade before, though they were fine when I tasted them (mainly whites).....

If you love really aged wines.....that should help you figure out how to buy...and , especially, to backfill. I stopped buying after 2005 for this reason...later vintages were unlikely to get there in my lifetime of drinking wine. No regrets on that. And, then, there's the whole issue of handling them at drinking....filtering, aeration, etc. to make the good experience more likely. Lots of variables to figure out...and we all doverge in some way or ways.

[billnanson]

I'm amazed that 04s have even entered this discussion.
I couldn't drink my Leroy 04s and sold them to someone who thought they tasted great.
I couldn't drink my Engel 04s and sold them to someone (else) who thought they tasted great.
In both cases I tasted them on release and again 3 years later before I sold. The opened wines were not total losses as they made decent beef bourguignon!
Probably stupidly, I kept one Engel GE to, academically, taste when the wine is 20 years old. I say stupidly because of the worth of that wine now - I might still find another route for somebody else to enjoy that wine!

[PCLIN]

Great - but more than intermittently slow to come around. The better 1999s are only just now starting to blossom, some 1996s and 1993s not yet - so I have no worries...

Bill, it’s interesting you compare it to 96 - do you think they’re similar vintages?

Personally I have a bit of a fear that 2005 will go the way of 96, which I don’t find to be a great vintage at all.....

In style, not at all Greg. I just lumped together diverse vintages that will repay patience - that's their only link, I think... A Recent (summer) 96 Grivot Richebourg was the greatest wine of that vintage I tasted - simply fabulous. I could say better than La Tache in 96 - but I drank that LT more than 10 years ago - so not really a valid comparison.

Wow. Am I glad to see that ‘96 Grivot Richebourg is finally ready!!

[Fred Daniels]

I had a sixpack of 05 Bourgogne from De Montille...know the producer well...and first bottles were horrible (I think it still has an 85 rating on CellarTracker). But I had faith and Lo! Fifteen years later and the Bourgogne is ready. Light, but very tasty and that Montille perfume is just lovely. Justified my $9.99, but also taught me about this crazy vintage. And I have some mags! Perhaps they will be for the grandkids...

[Gaudissabois Johan]

Friends,

Of course this thread is about 2005 but as far as 2004 is concerned I fully agree that most of the wines should have been declasssified as LALOU did. A few exceptions aside, they were a disgrace to the great reputation of the region. I first noticed the "greenish side" when drinking a SERVFELLE Chambolle premier cru on restaurant in Ghent January 2009. Barely drinkable. But still, enough said about that horrible vintage/ let us stick to 2005 and its deservedly (?) great reputation.
SINCERELY JOHAN

[Jay Miller]

I had a sixpack of 05 Bourgogne from De Montille...know the producer well...and first bottles were horrible (I think it still has an 85 rating on CellarTracker). But I had faith and Lo! Fifteen years later and the Bourgogne is ready. Light, but very tasty and that Montille perfume is just lovely. Justified my $9.99, but also taught me about this crazy vintage. And I have some mags! Perhaps they will be for the grandkids...

I remember when the 2005s were released saying "I don't know why I'm buying these wines, they probably won't be drinking well until after I'm dead".

[Scott Brunson]

Since we're on the subject, I'd love to know how Chandon de Briailles' wines from the vintage are showing... I own the Clos du Roi.

Claude told me to begin thinking about the Savigny Village in ‘17. I’m still waiting on the 1ers and GCs.

[Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow]

I had a sixpack of 05 Bourgogne from De Montille...know the producer well...and first bottles were horrible (I think it still has an 85 rating on CellarTracker). But I had faith and Lo! Fifteen years later and the Bourgogne is ready. Light, but very tasty and that Montille perfume is just lovely. Justified my $9.99, but also taught me about this crazy vintage. And I have some mags! Perhaps they will be for the grandkids...

Who IS the producer of this? Which De montille domaine?

The domaine of Etienne's father...always took forever....but the father was not involved by then...if it's the domaine rather than the other entities...

[YLee]

I didnt read the entire thread but we are talking about a wine that is only 15 years post vintage. We need another 5-10 yrs at the minimum depending on which wine you are holding.

[Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow]

to do what?

might want to read the rest of the thread to figure that out.

[M. Meer]

I think the tendency to fixate on vintage—as so perfectly exemplified by the way 2005s were collected a decade ago—is part of a mentality that closes our minds to those "exceptions to the rule", to our detriment.

So, are you saying it would be detrimental not to buy every year? Can I quote you when the lady of the house asks why I feel the need to buy another case (or ten)?

[Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow]

Put another way (due to having no cred with your wife) , how can you appreciate a great vintage if you only collect great vintages or trophy wines? The "lesser" vintages each have their own story...especially if one takes the winemakers' criterion: across the board, at all levels of the AOC in that vintage.

[William Kelley]

I think the tendency to fixate on vintage—as so perfectly exemplified by the way 2005s were collected a decade ago—is part of a mentality that closes our minds to those "exceptions to the rule", to our detriment.

So, are you saying it would be detrimental not to buy every year? Can I quote you when the lady of the house asks why I feel the need to buy another case (or ten)?

Certainly!

But what I'm really saying is that it's a pity to fixate on one vintage to the total exclusion of others. It's a pretty pedestrian point, but if offered the choice between a cellar exclusively composed of 2002s, 2005s and 2009s on the one hand, and a cellar that also included plenty of 2001s, 2007s and 2008s in addition to those three "highly-rated" years, I would choose the latter; and I wouldn't be averse to having some 2000s and 2003s (or some Engel 2004s, pace Bill) in there, too.

[Tom Blach]

I haven't even the slightest doubt now that there are many 2004s that will be utterly magical in twenty year's time. The trick will be to survive to enjoy them.

[Jayson Cohen]

I haven't even the slightest doubt now that there are many 2004s that will be utterly magical in twenty year's time. The trick will be to survive to enjoy them.

I’m long 2004 because it’s my son’s birth year, but even I don’t have your faith. From your lips to G’s ears.

[M. Meer]

Certainly!

But what I'm really saying is that it's a pity to fixate on one vintage to the total exclusion of others.

Hopefully, I will still be allowed in said house if I ever have the stones to utter it.

A snapshot of my more major holdings:

2015 6%
2014 11%
2013 13%
2012 8%
2011 4%
2010 13%
2009 13%
2008 7%
2006 2%
2005 8%
2003 4%
2002 2%
1999 2%

Looking at it reminded me that I went into '05 buying 1er cru and lower, and most of the higher level 1er & GC are from the other vintages, including "lesser" ones like '06, '08, '12, and '13. I'm having more fun drinking '00 1er cru CdB than I am the same bottlings from '05, '09, and '02, even.

If I had the foresight back then, maybe I would have filled the stacks up with Rousseau and everything else I choose not to buy anymore, but every bottle I open that offers up pleasure helps to suggest that I did okay in what I decided at the time. It also gives me hope that I can live to enjoy a majority of them, instead of leaving all the fun to my kids, years like 2005 included.


Oh, and back to OP... Like most years, it's wine to wine. I've also liked a villages Savigny (Pavelot) and a 1er cru Gevrey (Vougeraie) but might not touch some of my Bourgogne for a few more years (Ch. de Chorey).

[Gaudissabois Johan]

Friends,

To expand on the C ROUMIER quote I just add that Christophe was of course talking bout the so-called great vintages. As an aside : I think the CLOS des LAMBRAYS 2005 is also ready to be "further investigated". A friend told me it was great yesterday evening.....
SINCERELY JOHAN

[Glenn P]

Always fun to read the “Burgundy Excuses”!

[Keith Levenberg]

2005 Mugnier Marechale is showing beautifully right now.

The 2005 mugnier marechale and chambolle are so lovely right now that I was tempted to open a Fuees but decided to hold back.

Can confirm the Fuees is a beauty at this moment as well.

[Howard Cooper]

Friends,

To expand on the C ROUMIER quote I just add that Christophe was of course talking bout the so-called great vintages. As an aside : I think the CLOS des LAMBRAYS 2005 is also ready to be "further investigated". A friend told me it was great yesterday evening.....
SINCERELY JOHAN

That surprises me. I was not planning on opening mine for a while. Thanks.

In January 2020, I did try a couple of nearby 2005 Grand Crus side-by-side - Clos St. Denis by Jouan and Drouhin (who I understand buy some or all of their CSD from Jouan) and they had soften up a good bit and were very enjoyable. But, they were still very primary and in need of further development. My guess is that they need 5-10 more years to get mature.

[Yao C]

A 2005 Hudelot-Noellat RSV that a generous friend popped a few months back is my spouse’s best-ever Burgundy experience. It is wide open and the substantial vintage harmonizes really well with the elegant winemaking and terroir. That’s not to say that this is typical, merely that exceptions to the rule are really worth pursuing, and isn’t that what Burgundy is all about?

[Greg K]

2005 Mugnier Marechale is showing beautifully right now.

The 2005 mugnier marechale and chambolle are so lovely right now that I was tempted to open a Fuees but decided to hold back.

Can confirm the Fuees is a beauty at this moment as well.

Agreed, the Fuees is fantastic.

[Gaudissabois Johan]

Friends,

Yesterday evening my wife and I drank a CLOS de la MARECHALE 2005 and I hereby confirm that it is a delicious wine ready to be drunk. I will soon try BONNES MARES and AMOUREUSSES of this brilliant domaine and keep you lot posted. I read that the HUDELOT-NOELLATT R-St-V was terrific too. Anyone out there having had any experience with other Vosne grand crus of this by now mythical millésime?

SINCERELY JOHAN

[Josh Najjar]

How Good is the Burgundy 2005 vintage?

Lots of noise when the 2005 Burgundy vintage came on the market. A MEADOWS rated the vintage to be among the greatest ever. Since 15 years have passed us by we could come up with the question : is it really that good? A friend of mine stated that the 2005 ECHEZEAUX by Bocquenet (being a fan of the domaine and its grand cru) was "atypical". Not charming at all and too much of everything.....Do the followers of WINE BERSERKERS share this thought after having tasted other 2005 BURGUNDIES?

SINCERELY JOHAN

I sampled the same bottle recently, it showed very nice concentration but seemed a little disjointed and in need of more time to come together, to be optimistic. I don't believe that bottle exemplified my recent experience with the vintage.
I have opened more than a handful of '05s in the past year, and I believe it's a very fine year with great concentration and very good balance.
I recently opened up three MSD premier crus from three different producers and each one was excellent, all with great depth of flavor, very good transparency, and for the most part, excellent balance. All were slightly on the young side, but with another 3-5 years they should all prove to be excellent bottles. I can say the same for the few Volnay premier crus that I've sampled, which were even more evolved.
For optimal drinking, I still think we may be looking at 5+ years for the PCs, and another 10+ years for the GCs..

[Jeremy Holmes]

We've had plenty of '05's in blind tastings over the years. They almost always finish at, or close to the top of the bracket. Even at Bourgogne level they may not be ready, but it is a very good vintage.

[Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow]

When would you guess they "may be ready", Jeremy? if even minimally so?

[Jeremy Holmes]

Village wines in another 10 years, perhaps?

[Kirk.Grant]

As a very broad generalisation, if one really wants to enjoy red burgundy without waiting thirty years one should buy the less 'good' vintages.

I would revise that and say buy earlier maturing vintages. I have found 2007 and 2017's as earlier drinking in general compared to big vintages like 2005 and 1999. "Less good" does not necessarily translate to earlier drinking, sometimes they are just not good period. Also, I would avoid buying grand crus as in general they take the longest to mature, a village wine from an excellent producer can achieve great heights in my opinion, given enough time.

This is so very true. I opened a 2005 de Vogüé Chambolle-Musigny back in late 2019 and was very, VERY happy with it. Every time I pull out my 2005's this is the bottle I stare at & wonder how it will be when tertiary notes start to come in later in life.

[Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow]

Village wines in another 10 years, perhaps?

ouch

[A.Gillette]

As a very broad generalisation, if one really wants to enjoy red burgundy without waiting thirty years one should buy the less 'good' vintages.

I would revise that and say buy earlier maturing vintages. I have found 2007 and 2017's as earlier drinking in general compared to big vintages like 2005 and 1999. "Less good" does not necessarily translate to earlier drinking, sometimes they are just not good period. Also, I would avoid buying grand crus as in general they take the longest to mature, a village wine from an excellent producer can achieve great heights in my opinion, given enough time.

This is so very true. I opened a 2005 de Vogüé Chambolle-Musigny back in late 2019 and was very, VERY happy with it. Every time I pull out my 2005's this is the bottle I stare at & wonder how it will be when tertiary notes start to come in later in life.

I opened that same de Vogue last year and thought it was fantastic. It led me to open more of my 05’s, many of which have been similarly fantastic (mugnier, Dugat Py, Ramonet reds) and some of which have been totally shut down (Clavelier).

I think it’s worth noting that burgundy doesn’t really age in a linear fashion and the wines tend to open and close and get better and worse multiple times from youth to maturity, so just waiting doesn’t necessarily mean you are going to catch it at the right point.

A

[James Billy]

I would revise that and say buy earlier maturing vintages. I have found 2007 and 2017's as earlier drinking in general compared to big vintages like 2005 and 1999. "Less good" does not necessarily translate to earlier drinking, sometimes they are just not good period. Also, I would avoid buying grand crus as in general they take the longest to mature, a village wine from an excellent producer can achieve great heights in my opinion, given enough time.

This is so very true. I opened a 2005 de Vogüé Chambolle-Musigny back in late 2019 and was very, VERY happy with it. Every time I pull out my 2005's this is the bottle I stare at & wonder how it will be when tertiary notes start to come in later in life.

I opened that same de Vogue last year and thought it was fantastic. It led me to open more of my 05’s, many of which have been similarly fantastic (mugnier, Dugat Py, Ramonet reds) and some of which have been totally shut down (Clavelier).

I think it’s worth noting that burgundy doesn’t really age in a linear fashion and the wines tend to open and close and get better and worse multiple times from youth to maturity, so just waiting doesn’t necessarily mean you are going to catch it at the right point.

A

I've heard this before, but seems unlikely to me. Surely it's a function of the variability of the corks?

[A.Gillette]

This is so very true. I opened a 2005 de Vogüé Chambolle-Musigny back in late 2019 and was very, VERY happy with it. Every time I pull out my 2005's this is the bottle I stare at & wonder how it will be when tertiary notes start to come in later in life.

I opened that same de Vogue last year and thought it was fantastic. It led me to open more of my 05’s, many of which have been similarly fantastic (mugnier, Dugat Py, Ramonet reds) and some of which have been totally shut down (Clavelier).

I think it’s worth noting that burgundy doesn’t really age in a linear fashion and the wines tend to open and close and get better and worse multiple times from youth to maturity, so just waiting doesn’t necessarily mean you are going to catch it at the right point.

A

I've heard this before, but seems unlikely to me. Surely it's a function of the variability of the corks?

Don’t think so. I think it’s a function of fruit, acid, tannin all developing and changing at different rates and therefore being in and out of sync multiple times over the life of a particular wine.

[Ian S]

Meadows hailed 2015 as best since 2005 (better than 09/10) and another GOAT candidate

What does GOAT stand for mate? Is it some manner of Burghound acronym?

[crickey]

Greatest Of All Time.