How good is the 2005 Burgundy vintage

Tasting notes, varietals, grapes - anything related to wine
Message
Author
Gaudissabois Johan
Posts: 123
Joined: April 22nd, 2020, 2:07 am

How good is the 2005 Burgundy vintage

#1 Post by Gaudissabois Johan »

How Good is the Burgundy 2005 vintage?

Lots of noise when the 2005 Burgundy vintage came on the market. A MEADOWS rated the vintage to be among the greatest ever. Since 15 years have passed us by we could come up with the question : is it really that good? A friend of mine stated that the 2005 ECHEZEAUX by Bocquenet (being a fan of the domaine and its grand cru) was "atypical". Not charming at all and too much of everything.....Do the followers of WINE BERSERKERS share this thought after having tasted other 2005 BURGUNDIES?

SINCERELY JOHAN

Robert Sand
Posts: 717
Joined: August 13th, 2010, 1:19 pm
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 9 times

Re: How good is the 2005 Burgundy vintage

#2 Post by Robert Sand »

I´ve tasted quite a few from barrels and right after bottling, so I´m convinced it is a top vintage, but it needs a hell of a time of cellaring.
I do not touch mine, not even the Village wines. The few I´ve had were not giving much. 2025 to 2030 is a plan to start ...

User avatar
billnanson
Posts: 1502
Joined: October 22nd, 2010, 11:08 am
Location: Bern and Beaune
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: How good is the 2005 Burgundy vintage

#3 Post by billnanson »

Great - but more than intermittently slow to come around. The better 1999s are only just now starting to blossom, some 1996s and 1993s not yet - so I have no worries...
Burgundy Report - online since 2002...

Mich@el Ch@ng
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 6631
Joined: March 31st, 2017, 9:57 pm
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 40 times

Re: How good is the 2005 Burgundy vintage

#4 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng »

05 is superb, but I’d agree it will take time.

dbailey
Posts: 4360
Joined: September 7th, 2009, 8:44 am
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: How good is the 2005 Burgundy vintage

#5 Post by dbailey »

As long as you weren’t brave enough to buy a horizontal of old regime faiveleys in magnums you’ll be fine...
Dan

User avatar
D@vid Bu3ker
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 39234
Joined: February 14th, 2009, 8:06 am
Location: Connecticut
Has thanked: 45 times
Been thanked: 136 times

Re: How good is the 2005 Burgundy vintage

#6 Post by D@vid Bu3ker »

Gaudissabois Johan wrote: December 30th, 2020, 1:14 am How Good is the Burgundy 2005 vintage?

Lots of noise when the 2005 Burgundy vintage came on the market. A MEADOWS rated the vintage to be among the greatest ever. Since 15 years have passed us by we could come up with the question : is it really that good? A friend of mine stated that the 2005 ECHEZEAUX by Bocquenet (being a fan of the domaine and its grand cru) was "atypical". Not charming at all and too much of everything.....Do the followers of WINE BERSERKERS share this thought after having tasted other 2005 BURGUNDIES?

SINCERELY JOHAN
It’s way too early to be drinking that Bocquenet. I am a big fan of that producer, and would not consider drinking the 2005 yet. I am still timid about opening the 1999!
David Bueker - Rieslingfan

Greg K
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 1810
Joined: December 21st, 2013, 3:16 pm
Location: New York
Has thanked: 18 times
Been thanked: 25 times

Re: How good is the 2005 Burgundy vintage

#7 Post by Greg K »

billnanson wrote: December 30th, 2020, 2:52 am Great - but more than intermittently slow to come around. The better 1999s are only just now starting to blossom, some 1996s and 1993s not yet - so I have no worries...
Bill, it’s interesting you compare it to 96 - do you think they’re similar vintages?

Personally I have a bit of a fear that 2005 will go the way of 96, which I don’t find to be a great vintage at all.....
Greg Kahn

User avatar
Howard Cooper
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 20767
Joined: May 30th, 2009, 8:37 am
Location: Rockville, MD
Has thanked: 71 times
Been thanked: 51 times

Re: How good is the 2005 Burgundy vintage

#8 Post by Howard Cooper »

I don't think anyone really knows at this point. A lot of us have a lot of it (myself included) and really hope that the vintage is all that it is supposed to be. The good news IMHO is that some lesser wines from 2005 are starting to taste really good. But, a concern is that in the past the results from really structured vintages like 1976, 1988, and 1996 have been mixed. Some wines end up over a good amount of time end up being really wonderful, others dry out before the tannins, etc., soften and the wines mature. Winemaking and grape-growing are better than at the time of these vintages and 2005 is probably naturally a better vintage than those vintages but only time will tell.

I would not be shocked if the greatest 2005s are among the greatest wines of our lifetimes but that there will be some spectacularly poor wines.
Howard

"That's what I do. I drink and I know things." Tyrion Lannister

Matthew Hemming
Posts: 322
Joined: May 8th, 2010, 2:46 am
Location: Bristol, UK
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: How good is the 2005 Burgundy vintage

#9 Post by Matthew Hemming »

I feel 2005 is in the excellent-outstanding range but struggle to see in GOAT territory. To me, the finesse, purity and transparency in 2010, the best 2016s and probably 1999s trump 2005.

It's a very muscular and powerful vintage. I've drunk through a few village wines and they're all over the place, with frequent flashes of brilliance. More than anything, they display the non-linear ageing curve of Burgundy. One bottle of Grivot Vosne or Bachelet Gevrey VV can be stunning, the next awkward and gawky. I've mostly stopped opening them for a while but will try a Rouget Vosne tomorrow - always used to be a favourite of Paul Hanna, whatever happened to him???

I rather feel 2005 is a vintage from another era in that winemakers today are so much more accustomed to managing tannins, ripeness and extraction. It's dangerous to claim contemporary winemaking is superior to that of the past (Jayer, Truchot...) but perhaps it's fair to say the average bar is much higher?

All my 'major' 2005s are still in bond, and I'm a believer in the vintage, but I'm not 100% they're the best I've ever seen. My money is on 2010 for that.
ITB

User avatar
Marcu$ Stanley
Posts: 1458
Joined: November 1st, 2010, 3:31 pm
Has thanked: 9 times
Been thanked: 27 times

Re: How good is the 2005 Burgundy vintage

#10 Post by Marcu$ Stanley »

The big question in my mind right now is not how good 2005 is, but how good 2015 is relative to surrounding vintages. That's the most relevant question for purchasers right now. Meadows hailed 2015 as best since 2005 (better than 09/10) and another GOAT candidate but I'm not sure I see it yet. Perhaps we should start another thread on vintages more generally.

User avatar
Howard Cooper
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 20767
Joined: May 30th, 2009, 8:37 am
Location: Rockville, MD
Has thanked: 71 times
Been thanked: 51 times

Re: How good is the 2005 Burgundy vintage

#11 Post by Howard Cooper »

Matthew Hemming wrote: December 30th, 2020, 12:20 pm It's dangerous to claim contemporary winemaking is superior to that of the past (Jayer, Truchot...) but perhaps it's fair to say the average bar is much higher?

My #1 wish in wine is that someone would decide to make Burgundy like Jacky Truchot did. Hasn't happened so far. That said, I think the average bar is much higher today. What is exciting is my sense is that the wines are really improving in lesser regions of Burgundy like the Chalonaise. I wish I knew more about these wines.
Howard

"That's what I do. I drink and I know things." Tyrion Lannister

User avatar
Jay Miller
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 15496
Joined: June 19th, 2009, 5:18 pm
Location: Jersey City
Has thanked: 20 times
Been thanked: 57 times

Re: How good is the 2005 Burgundy vintage

#12 Post by Jay Miller »

IMO far too early to judge. Ask me again in 10 years if I'm still alive.
Ripe fruit isn't necessarily a flaw.

User avatar
Mont Stern
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 776
Joined: January 28th, 2009, 10:32 am
Location: East Amherst, NY
Has thanked: 43 times
Been thanked: 5 times

Re: How good is the 2005 Burgundy vintage

#13 Post by Mont Stern »

Jay Miller wrote: December 30th, 2020, 1:21 pm IMO far too early to judge. Ask me again in 10 years if I'm still alive.
+1

Greg K
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 1810
Joined: December 21st, 2013, 3:16 pm
Location: New York
Has thanked: 18 times
Been thanked: 25 times

Re: How good is the 2005 Burgundy vintage

#14 Post by Greg K »

Matthew Hemming wrote: December 30th, 2020, 12:20 pm I feel 2005 is in the excellent-outstanding range but struggle to see in GOAT territory. To me, the finesse, purity and transparency in 2010, the best 2016s and probably 1999s trump 2005.
This is my view as well. I think 2010 is easily the best vintage since I’ve started seriously drinking burgundy. That it’s a vintage that’s not shut down (with some exceptions, of course) is a nice bonus.
Greg Kahn

User avatar
William Kelley
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 2706
Joined: June 4th, 2014, 1:36 am
Location: Beaune, France & San Antonio, Texas
Has thanked: 104 times
Been thanked: 158 times

Re: How good is the 2005 Burgundy vintage

#15 Post by William Kelley »

Matthew Hemming wrote: December 30th, 2020, 12:20 pm I feel 2005 is in the excellent-outstanding range but struggle to see in GOAT territory. To me, the finesse, purity and transparency in 2010, the best 2016s and probably 1999s trump 2005.

It's a very muscular and powerful vintage. I've drunk through a few village wines and they're all over the place, with frequent flashes of brilliance. More than anything, they display the non-linear ageing curve of Burgundy. One bottle of Grivot Vosne or Bachelet Gevrey VV can be stunning, the next awkward and gawky. I've mostly stopped opening them for a while but will try a Rouget Vosne tomorrow - always used to be a favourite of Paul Hanna, whatever happened to him???

I rather feel 2005 is a vintage from another era in that winemakers today are so much more accustomed to managing tannins, ripeness and extraction. It's dangerous to claim contemporary winemaking is superior to that of the past (Jayer, Truchot...) but perhaps it's fair to say the average bar is much higher?

All my 'major' 2005s are still in bond, and I'm a believer in the vintage, but I'm not 100% they're the best I've ever seen. My money is on 2010 for that.
I think it's also worth acknowledging that in Burgundy, as elsewhere in the world, this was the tail end of the era of extraction (enzymatic, heated post-fermentation macerations), impactful new oak (higher toast, much less 3-year seasoned wood than today) and pushing harvest dates (for historically good reasons that were ceasing to apply in warmer vintages). You are much more likely to taste chunky, extracted wines liberally veneered with new oak-derived vanilla / espresso roast / grilled meat in 2005 than you are in 2019, that's for sure. This has less to do with the inherent quality of the vintage than how the wines were made.

Given the numerous "best of my career", "best of my lifetime" plaudits, it's hard to say it wasn't overrated, even while acknowledging that it's a fine vintage.
The Wine Advocate

User avatar
J. Galang
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 1402
Joined: June 1st, 2009, 10:26 am
Location: San Francisco, CA
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: How good is the 2005 Burgundy vintage

#16 Post by J. Galang »

Bookmarking so I can check back on this in 2025.
Joel Galang

User avatar
Jerry Hey
Posts: 1462
Joined: January 26th, 2010, 5:16 pm
Been thanked: 5 times

Re: How good is the 2005 Burgundy vintage

#17 Post by Jerry Hey »

Judging on a bottle of 2005 Rousseau Chambertin I had in 2014, I would say that the best of 2005 will stand head to head with all the other "vintages of the Century". I haven't started drinking many of my 2005s yet, but a few village wines have been very good with lots of life. That being said, I'm a 1999 guy.

PCLIN
Posts: 1565
Joined: August 3rd, 2013, 9:45 am
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: How good is the 2005 Burgundy vintage

#18 Post by PCLIN »

Greg K wrote: December 30th, 2020, 4:03 pm
Matthew Hemming wrote: December 30th, 2020, 12:20 pm I feel 2005 is in the excellent-outstanding range but struggle to see in GOAT territory. To me, the finesse, purity and transparency in 2010, the best 2016s and probably 1999s trump 2005.
This is my view as well. I think 2010 is easily the best vintage since I’ve started seriously drinking burgundy. That it’s a vintage that’s not shut down (with some exceptions, of course) is a nice bonus.

Another vote for this view.
Chiu Lin

User avatar
Keith Levenberg
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 5681
Joined: June 6th, 2009, 3:11 pm
Location: Washington, D.C.
Has thanked: 12 times
Been thanked: 23 times

Re: How good is the 2005 Burgundy vintage

#19 Post by Keith Levenberg »

Best of my buying career. It's a tier above 2010 in my book because it has both more stuffing and more refinement. Of course, that means they'll likely take longer than the 2010s to be ready. For those who find more recent vintages more in line with their style preferences as William suggested, 2015 is a worthy successor to 2005 and shares its combination of richness and refinement.

Tom Reddick
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 1588
Joined: June 30th, 2009, 9:56 pm
Location: Austin, TX
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 17 times

Re: How good is the 2005 Burgundy vintage

#20 Post by Tom Reddick »

Gaudissabois Johan wrote: December 30th, 2020, 1:14 amA friend of mine stated that the 2005 ECHEZEAUX by Bocquenet (being a fan of the domaine and its grand cru) was "atypical". Not charming at all and too much of everything.
This pretty sums up my feelings on the vintage, though I think some charm could come with time.

I do think 2005 is a great vintage, but it is also one that will take an incredibly long time to fully come around- and that brings risk. The longer a vintage takes to come around, the more that can go wrong in the cellar- wines drying out, balance issues etc. And then of course there are the costs of time and money to cellar.

Further, the wines are- as your friend described- very atypical. They are gorgeous- but freakishly big. When I did my 2006 DRC dinner, we did a course after with an assortment of younger wines. Among them were the 2005 Roumier Chambolle Musigny and 2005 Roumier Bonnes-Mares. When someone poured me a glass of the Chambolle, I tried it and asked the pourer to make sure it was not the Bonnes-Mares. The wine was that big that it had the physical scale of the Bonnes-Mares. And the Bonnes-Mares itself was structurally bigger than any Roumier Musigny I have ever tried. It was more like having a Leroy Chambertin or Richebourg.

That said- the wines were also magnificent showing an incredible array of floral notes in particular. So with the power came all the breed and nuance.

But how long do we wait? What happens in the meantime? And is the aged product still a really big wine? If so- then that may a great wine to win a tasting event, but it is not going to be easy to enjoy as a harmonious component of a meal. And what happens to wines with such high levels of extract and reliance on that for aging? Do you end up with blowsy pruny wines like some of the Accad wines from the mid 1990s? It is a lot of questions for very singular wines that are very expensive- though I do think that most of the wines will come out just fine.
Last edited by Tom Reddick on December 30th, 2020, 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ITB - Cellar appraisals

User avatar
Alan Rath
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 22219
Joined: April 24th, 2009, 12:45 am
Location: Bay Area, CA. Sometimes out to lunch.
Has thanked: 15 times
Been thanked: 28 times

Re: How good is the 2005 Burgundy vintage

#21 Post by Alan Rath »

William Kelley wrote: December 30th, 2020, 4:04 pm
Matthew Hemming wrote: December 30th, 2020, 12:20 pm I feel 2005 is in the excellent-outstanding range but struggle to see in GOAT territory. To me, the finesse, purity and transparency in 2010, the best 2016s and probably 1999s trump 2005.

It's a very muscular and powerful vintage. I've drunk through a few village wines and they're all over the place, with frequent flashes of brilliance. More than anything, they display the non-linear ageing curve of Burgundy. One bottle of Grivot Vosne or Bachelet Gevrey VV can be stunning, the next awkward and gawky. I've mostly stopped opening them for a while but will try a Rouget Vosne tomorrow - always used to be a favourite of Paul Hanna, whatever happened to him???

I rather feel 2005 is a vintage from another era in that winemakers today are so much more accustomed to managing tannins, ripeness and extraction. It's dangerous to claim contemporary winemaking is superior to that of the past (Jayer, Truchot...) but perhaps it's fair to say the average bar is much higher?

All my 'major' 2005s are still in bond, and I'm a believer in the vintage, but I'm not 100% they're the best I've ever seen. My money is on 2010 for that.
I think it's also worth acknowledging that in Burgundy, as elsewhere in the world, this was the tail end of the era of extraction (enzymatic, heated post-fermentation macerations), impactful new oak (higher toast, much less 3-year seasoned wood than today) and pushing harvest dates (for historically good reasons that were ceasing to apply in warmer vintages). You are much more likely to taste chunky, extracted wines liberally veneered with new oak-derived vanilla / espresso roast / grilled meat in 2005 than you are in 2019, that's for sure. This has less to do with the inherent quality of the vintage than how the wines were made.

Given the numerous "best of my career", "best of my lifetime" plaudits, it's hard to say it wasn't overrated, even while acknowledging that it's a fine vintage.
That is pretty consistent with a lot of 2005s I’ve sampled over the past year or two.
I'm just one lost soul, swimming in a fish bowl, year after year

Jayson Cohen
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 2844
Joined: July 9th, 2016, 4:29 pm
Location: New York, NY
Has thanked: 129 times
Been thanked: 34 times

Re: How good is the 2005 Burgundy vintage

#22 Post by Jayson Cohen »

Tom Reddick wrote: December 30th, 2020, 8:58 pm But how long do we wait? What happens in the meantime?
Aren’t you still waiting on a lot of 1999s? (I am.) So you probably wait at least that long.

To put the waiting game into context, didn’t you wait (patiently?) for 1970 and 1975 Bordeaux? Aren’t you still waiting (patiently?) for 1986 and 1995 Bordeaux?

What’s the big deal of waiting for the structured vintages if what you want is the real goods at the end of the wait?

To your credit I think of you as someone willing to be patient with structured vintages. And in the meantime drink something else.

User avatar
Pat Martin
Posts: 2853
Joined: May 22nd, 2011, 11:38 pm
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 11 times

Re: How good is the 2005 Burgundy vintage

#23 Post by Pat Martin »

What a crazy hobby we’ve all chosen. Let’s wait 30 years to find out if the beverage we’ve squirreled away lovingly (and expensively) is actually any good... if we live that long!
P@ tr!ck M 8rt!n

Tom Reddick
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 1588
Joined: June 30th, 2009, 9:56 pm
Location: Austin, TX
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 17 times

Re: How good is the 2005 Burgundy vintage

#24 Post by Tom Reddick »

Jayson Cohen wrote: December 30th, 2020, 9:47 pm
Tom Reddick wrote: December 30th, 2020, 8:58 pm But how long do we wait? What happens in the meantime?
Aren’t you still waiting on a lot of 1999s? (I am.) So you probably wait at least that long.

To put the waiting game into context, didn’t you wait (patiently?) for 1970 and 1975 Bordeaux? Aren’t you still waiting (patiently?) for 1986 and 1995 Bordeaux?

What’s the big deal of waiting for the structured vintages if what you want is the real goods at the end of the wait?

To your credit I think of you as someone willing to be patient with structured vintages. And in the meantime drink something else.
I have no trouble being patient- we are fellow Magdelaine fans after all [cheers.gif] .

For my part, I think 1999 was a very classic vintage. What worries me about 2005s are the extremes of extraction. And that concern translates into a certain apprehension about investing in the wines.

Also, I am just not a big buyer of the big vintages. I prefer 2001s and 2008s to 2005s and 2010s. I can do more with them in the normal course of my wine enjoyment. There are few times when I need to turn up with 4-5 bottles of big name, big vintage wines and these days I will just reach back and buy a mature or maturing vintage of a big year versus maintaining a large stock from release onward.

Not long ago I actually took my first strong position in 2005s- Ponsot Griotte which is now coming along, starting to open, has proven itself and should have a very generous drinking window. With the passage of time, I will probably obtain a few others here and there- but I never have and never would buy such a huge scaled vintage in quantity at release.
ITB - Cellar appraisals

Barry L i p t o n
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 3514
Joined: November 8th, 2009, 8:59 pm
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 11 times

Re: How good is the 2005 Burgundy vintage

#25 Post by Barry L i p t o n »

I sometimes think "dumb phase" on a wine that hasn't come around after 20 years as applying to me when I bought it.

Jayson Cohen
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 2844
Joined: July 9th, 2016, 4:29 pm
Location: New York, NY
Has thanked: 129 times
Been thanked: 34 times

Re: How good is the 2005 Burgundy vintage

#26 Post by Jayson Cohen »

Tom Reddick wrote: December 30th, 2020, 11:24 pm
Jayson Cohen wrote: December 30th, 2020, 9:47 pm
Tom Reddick wrote: December 30th, 2020, 8:58 pm But how long do we wait? What happens in the meantime?
Aren’t you still waiting on a lot of 1999s? (I am.) So you probably wait at least that long.

To put the waiting game into context, didn’t you wait (patiently?) for 1970 and 1975 Bordeaux? Aren’t you still waiting (patiently?) for 1986 and 1995 Bordeaux?

What’s the big deal of waiting for the structured vintages if what you want is the real goods at the end of the wait?

To your credit I think of you as someone willing to be patient with structured vintages. And in the meantime drink something else.
I have no trouble being patient- we are fellow Magdelaine fans after all [cheers.gif] .

For my part, I think 1999 was a very classic vintage. What worries me about 2005s are the extremes of extraction. And that concern translates into a certain apprehension about investing in the wines.

Also, I am just not a big buyer of the big vintages. I prefer 2001s and 2008s to 2005s and 2010s. I can do more with them in the normal course of my wine enjoyment. There are few times when I need to turn up with 4-5 bottles of big name, big vintage wines and these days I will just reach back and buy a mature or maturing vintage of a big year versus maintaining a large stock from release onward.

Not long ago I actually took my first strong position in 2005s- Ponsot Griotte which is now coming along, starting to open, has proven itself and should have a very generous drinking window. With the passage of time, I will probably obtain a few others here and there- but I never have and never would buy such a huge scaled vintage in quantity at release.
I’m with you, which makes it easy for me to throw the patience flag. I bought very few 2005s on release. And no heavy hitters. I didn’t see the point for my palate. Still don’t. I won’t regret it.

That said, Keith did bring a very nice Fourier MSD Clos Sorbe to town last year. It seems like a very good vintage for Fourrier’s m.o.

Greg K
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 1810
Joined: December 21st, 2013, 3:16 pm
Location: New York
Has thanked: 18 times
Been thanked: 25 times

Re: How good is the 2005 Burgundy vintage

#27 Post by Greg K »

Jayson Cohen wrote: December 31st, 2020, 12:11 am
Tom Reddick wrote: December 30th, 2020, 11:24 pm
Jayson Cohen wrote: December 30th, 2020, 9:47 pm

Aren’t you still waiting on a lot of 1999s? (I am.) So you probably wait at least that long.

To put the waiting game into context, didn’t you wait (patiently?) for 1970 and 1975 Bordeaux? Aren’t you still waiting (patiently?) for 1986 and 1995 Bordeaux?

What’s the big deal of waiting for the structured vintages if what you want is the real goods at the end of the wait?

To your credit I think of you as someone willing to be patient with structured vintages. And in the meantime drink something else.
I have no trouble being patient- we are fellow Magdelaine fans after all [cheers.gif] .

For my part, I think 1999 was a very classic vintage. What worries me about 2005s are the extremes of extraction. And that concern translates into a certain apprehension about investing in the wines.

Also, I am just not a big buyer of the big vintages. I prefer 2001s and 2008s to 2005s and 2010s. I can do more with them in the normal course of my wine enjoyment. There are few times when I need to turn up with 4-5 bottles of big name, big vintage wines and these days I will just reach back and buy a mature or maturing vintage of a big year versus maintaining a large stock from release onward.

Not long ago I actually took my first strong position in 2005s- Ponsot Griotte which is now coming along, starting to open, has proven itself and should have a very generous drinking window. With the passage of time, I will probably obtain a few others here and there- but I never have and never would buy such a huge scaled vintage in quantity at release.
I’m with you, which makes it easy for me to throw the patience flag. I bought very few 2005s on release. And no heavy hitters. I didn’t see the point for my palate. Still don’t. I won’t regret it.

That said, Keith did bring a very nice Fourier MSD Clos Sorbe to town last year. It seems like a very good vintage for Fourrier’s m.o.
Fourrier is basically always open though :)
Greg Kahn

Greg K
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 1810
Joined: December 21st, 2013, 3:16 pm
Location: New York
Has thanked: 18 times
Been thanked: 25 times

Re: How good is the 2005 Burgundy vintage

#28 Post by Greg K »

Jayson Cohen wrote: December 30th, 2020, 9:47 pm
Tom Reddick wrote: December 30th, 2020, 8:58 pm But how long do we wait? What happens in the meantime?
Aren’t you still waiting on a lot of 1999s? (I am.) So you probably wait at least that long.

To put the waiting game into context, didn’t you wait (patiently?) for 1970 and 1975 Bordeaux? Aren’t you still waiting (patiently?) for 1986 and 1995 Bordeaux?

What’s the big deal of waiting for the structured vintages if what you want is the real goods at the end of the wait?

To your credit I think of you as someone willing to be patient with structured vintages. And in the meantime drink something else.
I don’t mind waiting (all my 05s are in storage, not that there are a ton), but as Tom said there’s a concern that while we wait the wines never make it. Some people are still waiting for 96s to come around, whereas I think that vintage is nothing but acid at this point.
I also don’t like my Burgundy as old as my Bordeaux, though I expect that’s also influenced by the exigencies of storage issues and Pinot’s more delicate nature.
Greg Kahn

James Billy
Posts: 1335
Joined: November 10th, 2016, 6:53 pm
Has thanked: 56 times
Been thanked: 6 times

Re: How good is the 2005 Burgundy vintage

#29 Post by James Billy »

J. Galang wrote: December 30th, 2020, 4:23 pm Bookmarking so I can check back on this in 2025.
Not sure how 4 years will make much difference.

User avatar
Tomás Costa
Posts: 538
Joined: April 22nd, 2020, 11:43 am
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 23 times

Re: How good is the 2005 Burgundy vintage

#30 Post by Tomás Costa »

Pat Martin wrote: December 30th, 2020, 10:24 pm What a crazy hobby we’ve all chosen. Let’s wait 30 years to find out if the beverage we’ve squirreled away lovingly (and expensively) is actually any good... if we live that long!
Another interesting topic would be whether today's wines (and I'm not being specific about any wine region) will require the same waiting time just to come around.
IG: tomascosta6524

Mike Miller
Posts: 753
Joined: February 3rd, 2009, 4:39 pm
Location: Marshall, TX & Dallas, TX

Re: How good is the 2005 Burgundy vintage

#31 Post by Mike Miller »

It’s like Chairman Mao’s reply when he was asked whether the French Revolution was successful: “Its’s too early to tell.”

Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow
Posts: 6431
Joined: April 29th, 2010, 1:36 pm
Been thanked: 5 times

Re: How good is the 2005 Burgundy vintage

#32 Post by Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow »

Once again, it gets back to how one assesses a vintage. As I've gotten older, unfortunately, my belief in how long a vintage takes to reach some level of maturity gets longer. I think a decent vintage needs 20 years minimum. 2005 certainly does....so many vintages have. So, I've not tried too many 2005s in recent years...and stopped paying attention after 2006, as I stopped buying wines.

But, in the way almost all winemakers in the region assess vintages: across the board at all levels... only 1990 and 2005 reach the greatest heights. So...I'm comfortable it will be a great one by those criteria. And, I tasted lots and lots in barrel and in bottle before deciding what to buy, so...I think that does give an advantage.

'99 , which is nearing ready...many are..has an achilles heal to it: overcropping. So, IMO, there are some less than greatly concentrated red wines out there....mostly from Cote de Beaune and the "lesser" appellations. Several winemakers told me that at the time it was a new vintage.

If you judge a vintage by highest highs.....that's a different analysis. '99 is up there; for me, so is 2002...maybe the loveliest character of fruit I've ever experienced in "modern", ie, post 1988 vintages. 1990 does have a lovely, silky character, too and is very seductive. Some, but only a few '93s do, too.

The fruit character of 2005, as it ages out,is TBD. It's all there....and the heights are the biggest outstanding question for me...what will its character....which was big and hedonistic early on....morph into. Can't tell yet, IMO. FWIW

A.Gillette
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 1356
Joined: September 4th, 2009, 5:00 pm
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 10 times

Re: How good is the 2005 Burgundy vintage

#33 Post by A.Gillette »

It’s hard to describe how remarkable the wines were on release. I agree with those who prefer 2010 but the promise of 2005 when it came out justified the hype. As for the wines, last night I drank an ‘05 Giroud Chambertin and an ‘05 Ponsot Griotte. Both were outstanding and while there is no doubt that they will go much longer, they were both worth opening now. The Ponsot was the first time I’ve ever opened a griotte and actually gotten a burst of cherries - kind of eye opening - and the Giroud was a deep, brooding Chambertin - not on the level I expect the Rousseau that I tasted early in its life, but a Chambertin and a grand cru in every way nonetheless. I’ve got a few other 05s sitting in the fridge that I intend to drink over the next few weeks.
A
A
Alex

User avatar
Keith Levenberg
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 5681
Joined: June 6th, 2009, 3:11 pm
Location: Washington, D.C.
Has thanked: 12 times
Been thanked: 23 times

Re: How good is the 2005 Burgundy vintage

#34 Post by Keith Levenberg »

Wish I had clipped the threads from the old board from the height of the '05 buying frenzy when many people wisely predicted, "You know, in 10 or 15 years these are going to be shut down tight and you're all going to call them overrated"

Mark Golodetz
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 7713
Joined: May 29th, 2009, 8:49 pm
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 33 times

Re: How good is the 2005 Burgundy vintage

#35 Post by Mark Golodetz »

Marcu$ Stanley wrote: December 30th, 2020, 12:34 pm The big question in my mind right now is not how good 2005 is, but how good 2015 is relative to surrounding vintages. That's the most relevant question for purchasers right now. Meadows hailed 2015 as best since 2005 (better than 09/10) and another GOAT candidate but I'm not sure I see it yet. Perhaps we should start another thread on vintages more generally.
That is when I stopped reading Burghound.
ITB

Mark Golodetz
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 7713
Joined: May 29th, 2009, 8:49 pm
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 33 times

Re: How good is the 2005 Burgundy vintage

#36 Post by Mark Golodetz »

The 2005s I have had recently seemed pretty harsh. I suspect they will come round with time, but they seem more of a long term project than 1999.
ITB

User avatar
Howard Cooper
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 20767
Joined: May 30th, 2009, 8:37 am
Location: Rockville, MD
Has thanked: 71 times
Been thanked: 51 times

Re: How good is the 2005 Burgundy vintage

#37 Post by Howard Cooper »

Mark Golodetz wrote: January 1st, 2021, 10:33 am The 2005s I have had recently seemed pretty harsh. I suspect they will come round with time, but they seem more of a long term project than 1999.
I have hopes for 2005 but as of right now I would say the best vintages I have tasted since say 1990 or so have been 1999 and 2010.
Howard

"That's what I do. I drink and I know things." Tyrion Lannister

User avatar
Kris Patten
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 6035
Joined: February 1st, 2009, 6:25 pm
Location: Seattle
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 20 times

Re: How good is the 2005 Burgundy vintage

#38 Post by Kris Patten »

2005s when tasted young showed great, ripe fruit, ripe tannin (albeit tannic), and great balance....wi th underlying power. Fast forward to 2009/10 and they shut down hard. I still think it will be a great, and long lived vintage, but it's a decade away from showing any of that and longer for some wines. Patience required.
ITB

User avatar
William Kelley
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 2706
Joined: June 4th, 2014, 1:36 am
Location: Beaune, France & San Antonio, Texas
Has thanked: 104 times
Been thanked: 158 times

Re: How good is the 2005 Burgundy vintage

#39 Post by William Kelley »

Keith Levenberg wrote: January 1st, 2021, 10:02 am Wish I had clipped the threads from the old board from the height of the '05 buying frenzy when many people wisely predicted, "You know, in 10 or 15 years these are going to be shut down tight and you're all going to call them overrated"
So the apologia was built into the plaudits?

I think we taste and scrutinize ripe vintages much more critically than was the case fifteen years ago—sometimes, indeed, too critically. I wonder how 2005 would be received today? Especially were it to have emerged in a context where—as was the case until a few days ago in the US—honestly labelling of alcohol levels was actually incentivized.

Several of the best red Burgundies I drank this year were from the 1980 vintage. On release, it was panned by the press—to the extent that there was a press—and shunned by the négociants. Forty years later, it looks as if the 1980 La Tâche might be the best of the decade, and I'm not convinced that the 1978 would surpass it side by side. Meanwhile, how did the celebrated 1976s fare?

Tasting Burgundy from barrel is a very tricky business, and as time passes, and the wines evolve, our tastes change too.

The problem is that vintage reputations become self-sustaining. How many people reading this have vastly more '05s in their cellar than '06s, '07s or '08s? To say nothing of '04s. Yet how many 2005s are as exciting to drink as Engel's 2004s? But once a vintage is established as "great", excuses are made, whereas the "weaker" vintages are seldom revisited and reappraised. I am all for forgetting age-worthy wines in which one has faith in the cellar, so these observations are made more in support of other lesser years than to disparage 2005, but at the end of the day, there is a lot to be said for buying some wine every year and not fixating unduly on vintage.
Last edited by William Kelley on January 3rd, 2021, 8:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Wine Advocate

User avatar
Keith Levenberg
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 5681
Joined: June 6th, 2009, 3:11 pm
Location: Washington, D.C.
Has thanked: 12 times
Been thanked: 23 times

Re: How good is the 2005 Burgundy vintage

#40 Post by Keith Levenberg »

William Kelley wrote: January 2nd, 2021, 5:15 pm
Keith Levenberg wrote: January 1st, 2021, 10:02 am Wish I had clipped the threads from the old board from the height of the '05 buying frenzy when many people wisely predicted, "You know, in 10 or 15 years these are going to be shut down tight and you're all going to call them overrated"
So the apologia was built into the plaudits?

I think we taste and scrutinize ripe vintages much more critically than was the case fifteen years ago—sometimes, indeed, too critically. I wonder how 2005 would be received today? Especially were it to have emerged in a context where—as was the case until a few days ago in the US—honestly labelling of alcohol levels was actually incentivized.

Several of the best red Burgundies I drank this year were from the 1980 vintage. On release, it was panned by the press—to the extent that there was a press—and shunned by the négociants. Forty years later, it looks as if the 1980 La Tâche might be the best of the decade, and I'm not convinced that the 1978 would surpass it side by side. Meanwhile, how did the celebrated 1976s fare?

Tasting Burgundy from barrel is a very tricky business, and as time passes, and the wines evolve, our tastes change too.

The problem is that vintage reputations become self-sustaining. How many people reading this have vastly more '05s in their cellar than '06s, '07s or '08s? To say nothing of '04s. Yet how many 2005s are as exciting to drink as Engel's 2004s? But once a vintage is established as "great", excuses are made, whereas the "weaker" vintages are seldom revisited and reappraised. I am all for forgetting age-wines in which one has faith in the cellar, so these observations are made more in support of other lesser years than to disparage 2005, but at the end of the day, there is a lot to be said for buying some wine every year and not fixating unduly on vintage.
Lots of interesting topics in there! 2005 did come in the middle of a shift in fashion back towards classicism, a part of which was a renewed appreciation for elegance and transparency over concentration and weight (though, as I mentioned above, I think '05 has both qualities in spades). That pendulum continued to swing and I have no doubt that if we saw a repeat of the vintage there would be many folks on the wine boards trying to buy some street cred with "I prefer the lighter, more elegant vintages..." posts, which I guess we did see w/r/t 2015, which is the most 2005-like vintage since 2005. But we've all had great Burgundies from lighter, more elegant vintages and great Burgundies from big, ripe vintages and the most important thing in having that great Burgundy experience isn't what kind of vintage they are, but catching them at the right time. We all knew going in that the right time for 2005 was going to be measured in terms of decades (and tried to warn the Boomers away from buying them up but the damn fools wouldn't listen...).

Now your point about 1980 is where things get very interesting because if you're playing the "try to catch them at the right time" game, you wouldn't ordinarily bank on a widely panned vintage blooming at the 40-year mark. (Though I recall there was a whole thread a while back about a Lalou Bize-Leroy remark to the effect of poor vintages needing more time than good ones, which was one of those things so provocative you want to believe it just because it makes life more interesting.) Now, 1980 La Tache is a no-brainer because it had a reputation as a great La Tache + a great value for La Tache going back forever, but if you're having great experiences further down the hierarchy, that definitely falls into the "man bites dog" category. Do you think 1980 in particular was misunderstood or do you think you'd have similar experiences with other panned vintages from that time, say 1977 or 1982? In the latter case I might chalk it up to the leveling effect of pristine provenance. Harder to come by this side of the pond so I'm not sure the experience would be replicable here - but when you do have pristine provenance, there's no level of greatness that really surprises me. A few folks here have commented on a jawdropping '81 La Tache we had from the Bern's cellar & I've also had Bordeaux from that cellar showing wonderfully with a hundred years of age where I honestly had to hit the books to remind myself whether they were great vintages or lousy ones - and they often turned out to be lousy ones.

User avatar
Howard Cooper
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 20767
Joined: May 30th, 2009, 8:37 am
Location: Rockville, MD
Has thanked: 71 times
Been thanked: 51 times

Re: How good is the 2005 Burgundy vintage

#41 Post by Howard Cooper »

William Kelley wrote: January 2nd, 2021, 5:15 pm
Keith Levenberg wrote: January 1st, 2021, 10:02 am Wish I had clipped the threads from the old board from the height of the '05 buying frenzy when many people wisely predicted, "You know, in 10 or 15 years these are going to be shut down tight and you're all going to call them overrated"
So the apologia was built into the plaudits?

I think we taste and scrutinize ripe vintages much more critically than was the case fifteen years ago—sometimes, indeed, too critically. I wonder how 2005 would be received today? Especially were it to have emerged in a context where—as was the case until a few days ago in the US—honestly labelling of alcohol levels was actually incentivized.

Several of the best red Burgundies I drank this year were from the 1980 vintage. On release, it was panned by the press—to the extent that there was a press—and shunned by the négociants. Forty years later, it looks as if the 1980 La Tâche might be the best of the decade, and I'm not convinced that the 1978 would surpass it side by side. Meanwhile, how did the celebrated 1976s fare?

Tasting Burgundy from barrel is a very tricky business, and as time passes, and the wines evolve, our tastes change too.

The problem is that vintage reputations become self-sustaining. How many people reading this have vastly more '05s in their cellar than '06s, '07s or '08s? To say nothing of '04s. Yet how many 2005s are as exciting to drink as Engel's 2004s? But once a vintage is established as "great", excuses are made, whereas the "weaker" vintages are seldom revisited and reappraised. I am all for forgetting age-wines in which one has faith in the cellar, so these observations are made more in support of other lesser years than to disparage 2005, but at the end of the day, there is a lot to be said for buying some wine every year and not fixating unduly on vintage.
One of my favorite wines was a 1980 DRC Grands Echezeaux (paid $35 for it).

I understand the idea of buying from multiple vintages, etc., and it makes a lot of sense, but is 2004 really the vintage for which you want to make that point? Sure there are a few good wines there, but there are so many dogs and from top producers.
Howard

"That's what I do. I drink and I know things." Tyrion Lannister

User avatar
William Kelley
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 2706
Joined: June 4th, 2014, 1:36 am
Location: Beaune, France & San Antonio, Texas
Has thanked: 104 times
Been thanked: 158 times

Re: How good is the 2005 Burgundy vintage

#42 Post by William Kelley »

Howard Cooper wrote: January 3rd, 2021, 6:54 am
William Kelley wrote: January 2nd, 2021, 5:15 pm
Keith Levenberg wrote: January 1st, 2021, 10:02 am Wish I had clipped the threads from the old board from the height of the '05 buying frenzy when many people wisely predicted, "You know, in 10 or 15 years these are going to be shut down tight and you're all going to call them overrated"
So the apologia was built into the plaudits?

I think we taste and scrutinize ripe vintages much more critically than was the case fifteen years ago—sometimes, indeed, too critically. I wonder how 2005 would be received today? Especially were it to have emerged in a context where—as was the case until a few days ago in the US—honestly labelling of alcohol levels was actually incentivized.

Several of the best red Burgundies I drank this year were from the 1980 vintage. On release, it was panned by the press—to the extent that there was a press—and shunned by the négociants. Forty years later, it looks as if the 1980 La Tâche might be the best of the decade, and I'm not convinced that the 1978 would surpass it side by side. Meanwhile, how did the celebrated 1976s fare?

Tasting Burgundy from barrel is a very tricky business, and as time passes, and the wines evolve, our tastes change too.

The problem is that vintage reputations become self-sustaining. How many people reading this have vastly more '05s in their cellar than '06s, '07s or '08s? To say nothing of '04s. Yet how many 2005s are as exciting to drink as Engel's 2004s? But once a vintage is established as "great", excuses are made, whereas the "weaker" vintages are seldom revisited and reappraised. I am all for forgetting age-wines in which one has faith in the cellar, so these observations are made more in support of other lesser years than to disparage 2005, but at the end of the day, there is a lot to be said for buying some wine every year and not fixating unduly on vintage.
One of my favorite wines was a 1980 DRC Grands Echezeaux (paid $35 for it).

I understand the idea of buying from multiple vintages, etc., and it makes a lot of sense, but is 2004 really the vintage for which you want to make that point? Sure there are a few good wines there, but there are so many dogs and from top producers.
It was not the 2004 vintage as a whole that I wanted to use to make my point, but the Engel wines in particular. I remember a friend in Burgundy, who has worked at the Domaine de la Romanée-Conti, d'Angerville etc, telling me that the most memorable Burgundy she had ever drunk was the 2004 Clos Vougeot from Engel, and wondering what she had been smoking. Then, a few years later, I drank some 2004 Engel wines, and I understood her excitement. If the ultimate desideratum in this passion for wine we all share is opening moving bottles, then my experience has been that it is not infrequently the exceptions to the rule that deliver this. And I think the tendency to fixate on vintage—as so perfectly exemplified by the way 2005s were collected a decade ago—is part of a mentality that closes our minds to those "exceptions to the rule", to our detriment.
The Wine Advocate

Mark Golodetz
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 7713
Joined: May 29th, 2009, 8:49 pm
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 33 times

Re: How good is the 2005 Burgundy vintage

#43 Post by Mark Golodetz »

Logically, the vintage should define what is possible. So in a cold, rainy year, a winemaker won’t be able to make opulent wines. We may keep finding interesting exceptions, but making wines when weather conditions are poor, forces the winemaker to be on the defensive, limiting the wines he can and can’t make.
ITB

User avatar
Howard Cooper
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 20767
Joined: May 30th, 2009, 8:37 am
Location: Rockville, MD
Has thanked: 71 times
Been thanked: 51 times

Re: How good is the 2005 Burgundy vintage

#44 Post by Howard Cooper »

William Kelley wrote: January 3rd, 2021, 8:07 am
Howard Cooper wrote: January 3rd, 2021, 6:54 am
William Kelley wrote: January 2nd, 2021, 5:15 pm

So the apologia was built into the plaudits?

I think we taste and scrutinize ripe vintages much more critically than was the case fifteen years ago—sometimes, indeed, too critically. I wonder how 2005 would be received today? Especially were it to have emerged in a context where—as was the case until a few days ago in the US—honestly labelling of alcohol levels was actually incentivized.

Several of the best red Burgundies I drank this year were from the 1980 vintage. On release, it was panned by the press—to the extent that there was a press—and shunned by the négociants. Forty years later, it looks as if the 1980 La Tâche might be the best of the decade, and I'm not convinced that the 1978 would surpass it side by side. Meanwhile, how did the celebrated 1976s fare?

Tasting Burgundy from barrel is a very tricky business, and as time passes, and the wines evolve, our tastes change too.

The problem is that vintage reputations become self-sustaining. How many people reading this have vastly more '05s in their cellar than '06s, '07s or '08s? To say nothing of '04s. Yet how many 2005s are as exciting to drink as Engel's 2004s? But once a vintage is established as "great", excuses are made, whereas the "weaker" vintages are seldom revisited and reappraised. I am all for forgetting age-wines in which one has faith in the cellar, so these observations are made more in support of other lesser years than to disparage 2005, but at the end of the day, there is a lot to be said for buying some wine every year and not fixating unduly on vintage.
One of my favorite wines was a 1980 DRC Grands Echezeaux (paid $35 for it).

I understand the idea of buying from multiple vintages, etc., and it makes a lot of sense, but is 2004 really the vintage for which you want to make that point? Sure there are a few good wines there, but there are so many dogs and from top producers.
It was not the 2004 vintage as a whole that I wanted to use to make my point, but the Engel wines in particular. I remember a friend in Burgundy, who has worked at the Domaine de la Romanée-Conti, d'Angerville etc, telling me that the most memorable Burgundy she had ever drunk was the 2004 Clos Vougeot from Engel, and wondering what she had been smoking. Then, a few years later, I drank some 2004 Engel wines, and I understood her excitement. If the ultimate desideratum in this passion for wine we all share is opening moving bottles, then my experience has been that it is not infrequently the exceptions to the rule that deliver this. And I think the tendency to fixate on vintage—as so perfectly exemplified by the way 2005s were collected a decade ago—is part of a mentality that closes our minds to those "exceptions to the rule", to our detriment.
Would you recommend that people buy 2004s blind, even knowing the producer, without the specific recommendation of someone like you or of a friend who has worked at the Domaine de la Romanée-Conti. I mean, from a really good producer, I might take a flier on a 2007 or a 2008 or a 2012 or a 2014, but a 2004?
Howard

"That's what I do. I drink and I know things." Tyrion Lannister

User avatar
William Kelley
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 2706
Joined: June 4th, 2014, 1:36 am
Location: Beaune, France & San Antonio, Texas
Has thanked: 104 times
Been thanked: 158 times

Re: How good is the 2005 Burgundy vintage

#45 Post by William Kelley »

Keith Levenberg wrote: January 2nd, 2021, 6:20 pm
Lots of interesting topics in there! 2005 did come in the middle of a shift in fashion back towards classicism, a part of which was a renewed appreciation for elegance and transparency over concentration and weight (though, as I mentioned above, I think '05 has both qualities in spades). That pendulum continued to swing and I have no doubt that if we saw a repeat of the vintage there would be many folks on the wine boards trying to buy some street cred with "I prefer the lighter, more elegant vintages..." posts, which I guess we did see w/r/t 2015, which is the most 2005-like vintage since 2005. But we've all had great Burgundies from lighter, more elegant vintages and great Burgundies from big, ripe vintages and the most important thing in having that great Burgundy experience isn't what kind of vintage they are, but catching them at the right time. We all knew going in that the right time for 2005 was going to be measured in terms of decades (and tried to warn the Boomers away from buying them up but the damn fools wouldn't listen...).

Now your point about 1980 is where things get very interesting because if you're playing the "try to catch them at the right time" game, you wouldn't ordinarily bank on a widely panned vintage blooming at the 40-year mark. (Though I recall there was a whole thread a while back about a Lalou Bize-Leroy remark to the effect of poor vintages needing more time than good ones, which was one of those things so provocative you want to believe it just because it makes life more interesting.) Now, 1980 La Tache is a no-brainer because it had a reputation as a great La Tache + a great value for La Tache going back forever, but if you're having great experiences further down the hierarchy, that definitely falls into the "man bites dog" category. Do you think 1980 in particular was misunderstood or do you think you'd have similar experiences with other panned vintages from that time, say 1977 or 1982? In the latter case I might chalk it up to the leveling effect of pristine provenance. Harder to come by this side of the pond so I'm not sure the experience would be replicable here - but when you do have pristine provenance, there's no level of greatness that really surprises me. A few folks here have commented on a jawdropping '81 La Tache we had from the Bern's cellar & I've also had Bordeaux from that cellar showing wonderfully with a hundred years of age where I honestly had to hit the books to remind myself whether they were great vintages or lousy ones - and they often turned out to be lousy ones.
Now that is for sure. And one of the ironies of contemporary wine culture is that the people with the money generally don't have the time, and the people with the time don't have the money.

I think Lalou's remark was more to the effect that time in the cellar can supply "ripeness" that wasn't acquired by time on the vine, so that lean, angular, compact vintages will sweeten with time. So I think she would have had in mind years such as 1996, 1993, and, yes, 1980. And if, looking at more recent years, one were to argue that the best 2008s will need more time than the best 2007s or best 2009s, I think that would be right. To change regions, 2002 Bordeaux seem to me an example of the same phenomenon.

I've had some great experiences up and down the hierarchy in 1980 in the last twelve months, admittedly mainly at the top, but notably Roty's Gevrey AOC, without lieu-dit designation, and for example Guillemot's Serpentières and Henri Boillot's Volnay AOC, comparatively modest Côte de Beaune bottlings in what is known as "a Côte de Nuits vintage".

Next year, I'll do an article on 1981, which is even more forgotten, and even more heterogenous than 1980, and it will be fascinating to see the results, going into tasting the wines with a very open mind, without any desire to champion a particular year but also with no intention of "marking down" the wines because "everyone knows it wasn't a very good vintage", which I think happens.

You're right about provenance being an equalizer regarding 1982 reds in particular, as some are still delicious sur place (Gouges Clos des Porrets and Ponsot CdlR were lovely recently, which Pousse d'Or 60 Ouvrées was surprisingly pedestrian but no where near too old), but which are mostly extremely fragile. 1979 reds, especially from the Côte de Beaune, are also quite often fabulous, perfumed, texturally sumptuous wines when opened in the region, but not necessarily bottles I would be excited to drink after they have travelled 5,000 kilometers.

But to answer your question a bit more directly, if you were to say, can one find 1980s that are better than 1978s?, or 1981s that are better than 1985s?, I would answer "yes", while still acknowledging the overall superiority of '85 and '78. And what a pity it would be to miss out on the modern day equivalents of those exceptions to the rule today! One of my motivation to start a "40 years on" retrospective series for TWA was to juxtapose contemporaneous commentary from all quarters with how the wines actually taste today, with a view to hopefully at least avoiding making the same journalistic mistakes twice, and this has been one of the more interesting lessons that the exercise has reaffirmed.
The Wine Advocate

User avatar
William Kelley
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 2706
Joined: June 4th, 2014, 1:36 am
Location: Beaune, France & San Antonio, Texas
Has thanked: 104 times
Been thanked: 158 times

Re: How good is the 2005 Burgundy vintage

#46 Post by William Kelley »

Howard Cooper wrote: January 3rd, 2021, 8:25 am
William Kelley wrote: January 3rd, 2021, 8:07 am
Howard Cooper wrote: January 3rd, 2021, 6:54 am

One of my favorite wines was a 1980 DRC Grands Echezeaux (paid $35 for it).

I understand the idea of buying from multiple vintages, etc., and it makes a lot of sense, but is 2004 really the vintage for which you want to make that point? Sure there are a few good wines there, but there are so many dogs and from top producers.
It was not the 2004 vintage as a whole that I wanted to use to make my point, but the Engel wines in particular. I remember a friend in Burgundy, who has worked at the Domaine de la Romanée-Conti, d'Angerville etc, telling me that the most memorable Burgundy she had ever drunk was the 2004 Clos Vougeot from Engel, and wondering what she had been smoking. Then, a few years later, I drank some 2004 Engel wines, and I understood her excitement. If the ultimate desideratum in this passion for wine we all share is opening moving bottles, then my experience has been that it is not infrequently the exceptions to the rule that deliver this. And I think the tendency to fixate on vintage—as so perfectly exemplified by the way 2005s were collected a decade ago—is part of a mentality that closes our minds to those "exceptions to the rule", to our detriment.
Would you recommend that people buy 2004s blind, even knowing the producer, without the specific recommendation of someone like you or of a friend who has worked at the Domaine de la Romanée-Conti. I mean, from a really good producer, I might take a flier on a 2007 or a 2008 or a 2012 or a 2014, but a 2004?
No, manifestly not! I wouldn't really recommend anyone doing anything blind in Burgundy, except perhaps tasting. But I would also say that anyone who sees an Engel 2004 on a wine list and doesn't order it because of the vintage has missed out on a beautiful experience.

But my comment was really an attempt to get a bit more (perhaps too) philosophical about the way we think about vintages, rather than to give buying advice or whatever (the 2005 ship has sailed at this stage in any case).
Last edited by William Kelley on January 3rd, 2021, 9:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Wine Advocate

User avatar
William Kelley
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 2706
Joined: June 4th, 2014, 1:36 am
Location: Beaune, France & San Antonio, Texas
Has thanked: 104 times
Been thanked: 158 times

Re: How good is the 2005 Burgundy vintage

#47 Post by William Kelley »

Mark Golodetz wrote: January 3rd, 2021, 8:18 am Logically, the vintage should define what is possible. So in a cold, rainy year, a winemaker won’t be able to make opulent wines. We may keep finding interesting exceptions, but making wines when weather conditions are poor, forces the winemaker to be on the defensive, limiting the wines he can and can’t make.
I think the aptitude, resources and volition of the producer are much more often the limiting factor in wine quality than the vintage.
The Wine Advocate

Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow
Posts: 6431
Joined: April 29th, 2010, 1:36 pm
Been thanked: 5 times

Re: How good is the 2005 Burgundy vintage

#48 Post by Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow »

It is, IMO, crucial to keep in mind how the winemakers view vintage quality: character and how widespread the quality is. If one if drinking only DRC, Rousseau, Leroy, etc etc. trophy wines...almost any vintage can be a great experience...that's why, in part, they are trophy wines/ grand crus. This is true with almost any vintage I know, except 2004. In that vintage genetic taster sensitivities figure in the mix. When someone says they had a great 2004, I think the best they can say is they had a great experience with a 2004. Are they lucky? Is the wine good? Who knows. And, I would avoid the issue entirely if I had a choice.

FWIW, also , and I started paying attention to Burgundy (and Alsace) in 1983 after our honeymoon partly in those regions....1980 was always billed as a good/very good vintage...in the old, pre-1989, style. (1983 is one of my favorite red vintages of all time....because of the wines, not the memories of my honeymoon. Parker, in fact, at the time, dissed 1983...and said 1980 was the best vintage from 1977-1984. I have no doubt he was right...I always grabbed any opportunity to experience a 1980, though I've never experienced any of it trophier wines. Judging vintages in the "old" (made by pre-Boomers) style....is a very different task.

And, I know of no better method for a non-winemaker to assess a vintage than to taste them in barrel. Though much is unknown, the vintage character and the concentration and length of finishes can be divined. They are, to me, the best indicators. And, to try to assess a vintage any other way....as well...is not really possible. The sample size will be much smaller in any alternative sample.

My 2 scents.

Michael S. Monie
Posts: 4442
Joined: May 14th, 2013, 7:36 am
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 7 times

Re: How good is the 2005 Burgundy vintage

#49 Post by Michael S. Monie »

2005 Mugnier Marechale is showing beautifully right now.
Hubris Gravitas

In the myriad of involvements in living, there are two primary obligations: to know one's self and to be kind. And the more one engages in one , the more the other becomes apparent.

User avatar
Larry Link
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 597
Joined: August 13th, 2010, 10:42 am
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 9 times

Re: How good is the 2005 Burgundy vintage

#50 Post by Larry Link »

William Kelley wrote: January 3rd, 2021, 8:07 am
Howard Cooper wrote: January 3rd, 2021, 6:54 am
William Kelley wrote: January 2nd, 2021, 5:15 pm

So the apologia was built into the plaudits?

I think we taste and scrutinize ripe vintages much more critically than was the case fifteen years ago—sometimes, indeed, too critically. I wonder how 2005 would be received today? Especially were it to have emerged in a context where—as was the case until a few days ago in the US—honestly labelling of alcohol levels was actually incentivized.

Several of the best red Burgundies I drank this year were from the 1980 vintage. On release, it was panned by the press—to the extent that there was a press—and shunned by the négociants. Forty years later, it looks as if the 1980 La Tâche might be the best of the decade, and I'm not convinced that the 1978 would surpass it side by side. Meanwhile, how did the celebrated 1976s fare?

Tasting Burgundy from barrel is a very tricky business, and as time passes, and the wines evolve, our tastes change too.

The problem is that vintage reputations become self-sustaining. How many people reading this have vastly more '05s in their cellar than '06s, '07s or '08s? To say nothing of '04s. Yet how many 2005s are as exciting to drink as Engel's 2004s? But once a vintage is established as "great", excuses are made, whereas the "weaker" vintages are seldom revisited and reappraised. I am all for forgetting age-wines in which one has faith in the cellar, so these observations are made more in support of other lesser years than to disparage 2005, but at the end of the day, there is a lot to be said for buying some wine every year and not fixating unduly on vintage.
One of my favorite wines was a 1980 DRC Grands Echezeaux (paid $35 for it).

I understand the idea of buying from multiple vintages, etc., and it makes a lot of sense, but is 2004 really the vintage for which you want to make that point? Sure there are a few good wines there, but there are so many dogs and from top producers.
It was not the 2004 vintage as a whole that I wanted to use to make my point, but the Engel wines in particular. I remember a friend in Burgundy, who has worked at the Domaine de la Romanée-Conti, d'Angerville etc, telling me that the most memorable Burgundy she had ever drunk was the 2004 Clos Vougeot from Engel, and wondering what she had been smoking. Then, a few years later, I drank some 2004 Engel wines, and I understood her excitement. If the ultimate desideratum in this passion for wine we all share is opening moving bottles, then my experience has been that it is not infrequently the exceptions to the rule that deliver this. And I think the tendency to fixate on vintage—as so perfectly exemplified by the way 2005s were collected a decade ago—is part of a mentality that closes our minds to those "exceptions to the rule", to our detriment.
I just checked and 2004 Engel Clos Vougeot shows an auction price of $765, so I guess a few people are in on the secret and are driving up the price.

William have you tasted the 2004s from Domaine Leroy, and if so what’s your opinion on them? Do they defy the vintage reputation?

Post Reply

Return to “Wine Talk”